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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33866 on: July 02, 2024, 09:43:43 AM »
people

It's ALL the SAME party!!!!

They are all in it for more power and money.
None of them care about doing the right things for their country.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33867 on: July 02, 2024, 09:46:43 AM »
Please watch the highlights of the Libertarian debate.  Its a hilarious race to who wants the least government.  Even Gary Johnson looks like he didnt know what he got himself into
When you have zero chance of getting elected or affecting anything, it's easy to turn it into performance art. It becomes a contest: "Who can be the most pure Libertarian?" 

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33868 on: July 02, 2024, 09:49:08 AM »
Where was all the liberal angst when Obama decided a US citizen abroad was a terrorist and droned him?
This feels like it highlights the “always mad” portion of politics. 

If Libs had gone all in defending the guy they droned, wouldn’t it just flip with them being accused of loving a terrorist? Like, he killed a US Citizen who was an al-Qeada propagandist. 

I dunno if that’s wrong or right, but it definitely feels more nuanced, especially when civil liberties for all isn’t exactly considered sacrosanct. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33869 on: July 02, 2024, 09:56:28 AM »
This feels like it highlights the “always mad” portion of politics.

If Libs had gone all in defending the guy they droned, wouldn’t it just flip with them being accused of loving a terrorist? Like, he killed a US Citizen who was an al-Qeada propagandist.

I dunno if that’s wrong or right, but it definitely feels more nuanced, especially when civil liberties for all isn’t exactly considered sacrosanct.
Well, things flip all the time. When GWB was in office, he was a "monster stomping on US citizens' civil liberties". When Obama was in office, "well those are just the tools he needs to keep us safe."

Remember when Republicans were the party of free trade?

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33870 on: July 02, 2024, 10:01:07 AM »
Housing shortage, why?

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33871 on: July 02, 2024, 10:01:12 AM »
I don't know what a republican is anymore. It's not the party of Reagan.

I don't know what a democrat is anymore. It's not the party of JFK.

I do know what an independent is. It's my party and I party every day.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33872 on: July 02, 2024, 10:21:22 AM »
Well, things flip all the time. When GWB was in office, he was a "monster stomping on US citizens' civil liberties". When Obama was in office, "well those are just the tools he needs to keep us safe."

Remember when Republicans were the party of free trade?
Sure.

But I guess this isn’t even a case of flipping. I would assume that the vast majority of Republicans who fire shots about using a drone to kill a US citizen would also be very OK with blowing up a notable Al-Qaeda figure, even if he was born in Albuquerque. in a vacuum, they might even be OK with US citizens getting kilter because they were in proximity to Al-Qaeda leaders that we blew up.

and I’m positive there are plenty of spots where Dems have done something similar, this was just the one that popped up on the thread.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33873 on: July 02, 2024, 10:29:07 AM »
Supreme Court strikes down Chevron, curtailing power of federal agencies - SCOTUSblog

Chevron deference, Roberts explained in his opinion for the court on Friday, is inconsistent with the Administrative Procedure Act, a federal law that sets out the procedures that federal agencies must follow as well as instructions for courts to review actions by those agencies. The APA, Roberts noted, directs courts to “decide legal questions by applying their own judgment” and therefore “makes clear that agency interpretations of statutes — like agency interpretations of the Constitution — are not entitled to deference. Under the APA,” Roberts concluded, “it thus remains the responsibility of the court to decide whether the law means what the agency says.”
Roberts rejected any suggestion that agencies, rather than courts, are better suited to determine what ambiguities in a federal law might mean. Even when those ambiguities involve technical or scientific questions that fall within an agency’s area of expertise, Roberts emphasized, “Congress expects courts to handle technical statutory questions” – and courts also have the benefit of briefing from the parties and “friends of the court.”
Moreover, Roberts observed, even if courts should not defer to an agency’s interpretation of an ambiguous statute that it administers, it can consider that interpretation when it falls within the agency’s purview, a doctrine known as Skidmore deference.
Stare decisis – the principle that courts should generally adhere to their past cases – does not provide a reason to uphold the Chevron doctrine, Roberts continued. Roberts characterized the doctrine as “unworkable,” one of the criteria for overruling prior precedent, because it is so difficult to determine whether a statute is indeed ambiguous.


GopherRock

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33874 on: July 02, 2024, 10:32:32 AM »
Not surprised Lincoln was a Republican.  But am surprised how people forget the Democrat Party was the party of slavery, the KKK, Jim Crow laws, and segregation.
You can thank Hubert Humphrey and Lee Atwater for bringing the KKK, segregationists, and Jim Crow practitioners into the Republican fold.

https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/huberthumphey1948dnc.html

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/exclusive-lee-atwaters-infamous-1981-interview-southern-strategy/

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33875 on: July 02, 2024, 10:41:08 AM »
But I guess this isn’t even a case of flipping.
My point was that there's flipping all the time. 

What was brought up in this thread was Lincoln being a Republican, and the Southern Democrats being the racist party, and how that seems "odd" now. Well, it seems odd because of Nixon's Southern Strategy
Nixon's Southern Strategy. This flipped things around and the party of Southern racism became the Republican Party. 

I think one of the things we've seen flip more recently (which has free trade implications) is that the Democrats have become more and more the "elite" party rather than the party of the common working man. It hasn't completely flipped because organized labor is still on their side, but I think increasingly the working class don't identify with Democrat ideals. So the Republicans, who used to be the "business" party and @medinabuckeye1 would call out for supporting both immigration [to bring in lower cost workers] and free trade [to seek out lower cost workers elsewhere] is becoming the "we have to protect our manufacturing worker" party. Hence anti-immigration [which dovetails nicely with continuing to shore up the racist Southerner base] and pro-tariff [don't buy stuff from low cost countries, or from China because they'll get too powerful]. It also fits well with nationalism, which was always historically the Republican Party's turf as well. 

Other flips have been more weird. Russia is one. I can't imagine the party of Ronald Reagan complaining about military aid to Ukraine to halt Russian expansion. Yet here we are. I won't say that the Republican Party has become "pro-Russia", but they've gone from being the anti-Russia party to more along the "eh, we don't like what Putin is doing but we'd just rather not be involved" party. I don't get it. 

GopherRock

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33876 on: July 02, 2024, 10:42:02 AM »
Supreme Court strikes down Chevron, curtailing power of federal agencies - SCOTUSblog

Chevron deference, Roberts explained in his opinion for the court on Friday, is inconsistent with the Administrative Procedure Act, a federal law that sets out the procedures that federal agencies must follow as well as instructions for courts to review actions by those agencies. The APA, Roberts noted, directs courts to “decide legal questions by applying their own judgment” and therefore “makes clear that agency interpretations of statutes — like agency interpretations of the Constitution — are not entitled to deference. Under the APA,” Roberts concluded, “it thus remains the responsibility of the court to decide whether the law means what the agency says.”
Roberts rejected any suggestion that agencies, rather than courts, are better suited to determine what ambiguities in a federal law might mean. Even when those ambiguities involve technical or scientific questions that fall within an agency’s area of expertise, Roberts emphasized, “Congress expects courts to handle technical statutory questions” – and courts also have the benefit of briefing from the parties and “friends of the court.”
Moreover, Roberts observed, even if courts should not defer to an agency’s interpretation of an ambiguous statute that it administers, it can consider that interpretation when it falls within the agency’s purview, a doctrine known as Skidmore deference.
Stare decisis – the principle that courts should generally adhere to their past cases – does not provide a reason to uphold the Chevron doctrine, Roberts continued. Roberts characterized the doctrine as “unworkable,” one of the criteria for overruling prior precedent, because it is so difficult to determine whether a statute is indeed ambiguous.


Under this decision, a trucker that gets cited for running overweight is going to sue, claiming that the both the CFR and state regulations flowing from the CFR are unconstitutional. And in the right court, the judge will find exactly that. Terrible, terrible decision.

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33877 on: July 02, 2024, 10:44:23 AM »
check the wind direction (public opinion) and adjust your policies and platform to appease as many votes as possible
Flip

nothing to do with a party or left or right

just power and money
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33878 on: July 02, 2024, 10:46:48 AM »
Other flips have been more weird. Russia is one. I can't imagine the party of Ronald Reagan complaining about military aid to Ukraine to halt Russian expansion. Yet here we are. I won't say that the Republican Party has become "pro-Russia", but they've gone from being the anti-Russia party to more along the "eh, we don't like what Putin is doing but we'd just rather not be involved" party. I don't get it.
Yes all of this, while at the same time the Dems have become the warhawks.  It's a complete reversal from 20-30 years ago, very surprising to me.

Although it's less so, when you understand that Isolationism has now become a strong part of American Nationalism, and then it all sort of makes a little more sense.

Still, Reagan is absolutely rolling over in his grave at what the Republican party has become.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33879 on: July 02, 2024, 10:57:05 AM »
What happened is you have 10+ folks vying for the Presidential nomination.  One of them is a "populist" and hit a chord with say 30% of the voters in the primaries.  The other 9 split the other 70%, so the 30%er becomes dominant, and even after they get down to 3, he's still ahead and gaining strength.  Then folks seem to decide "If we want to win, we need to align behind the strongest dude".  Carter managed this in 1976.  

Then if the dude retains popularity, and a strong core, he can dominate party politics and folks get afraid to cross him.  So whatever he thinks becomes what the "Party" seems to think, simply because no one can afford to lose votes from that ardent core.

 

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