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Topic: #FireHarbaugh - #FireFrost

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #350 on: November 19, 2020, 01:45:10 PM »
Quote from: Mdot21 on November 19, 2020, 01:26:14 PM
Frost wasn’t the player Tommie Frazier was. Not even close. I’ll take my chances.

I think it would’ve been a real low scoring game and Michigan would’ve won maybe 10-7. Woodson was the ultimate x-factor in every game- he would’ve just made the big play to win the game- like he did all year that year. Michigan had the best defense in the country that year, by far, it wasn’t close, and they were led by the best defensive player in the country and arguably the greatest cornerback to ever play college football.

Frost wouldn’t have been able to complete a single pass on that defense. He was a shitty passer as is- and then going against a secondary like Michigan’s in ‘97 that had a pair of stud safeties in Tommy Hendricks and Marcus Ray- and then maybe the best cornerback to ever play college football in Charles Woodson- forget about it.

Woodson would’ve taken away half the field and Michigan could’ve just loaded the box. Michigan had the #1 defense in the country that year by basically every metric. They gave up only 206 yards per game on defense - #1 in the country, they allowed only 8.9 points per game- #1 in the country, they allowed only 3.3 yards per play- #1 in the country-, they gave up only 2.7 yards per rush- #5 in the country and gave up only 6 rushing touchdowns all season- #2 in the country, they had the #1 pass efficiency defense and they gave up only 4 pass TD all season- #1 in the country.

My two cents.
I've always considered Cooper's six point loss to Michigan in Ann Arbor in 1997 to be his best performance against the Wolverines, even better than his two wins (1994 and 1998) and the tie (1992).  What a defensive struggle that game was:
  • The offenses only combined for three TD's and one of those was a 2 yard "drive" after a fumble.  Basically each offense had one scoring drive all game long.  Only one other drive all game went for more than 35 yards and that one was an Ohio State drive the ended in an interception.  
  • The teams combined for just 161 yards rushing.  Ohio State had 119 on 41 attempts (2.9 avg) while Michigan was even worse with 42 yards on 42 attempts.  
  • The teams combined for just 280 yards passing.  Michigan had 147 yards on 14-25 passing with no TD's and no INT's.  Ohio State was even worse with 133 yards on 9-26 passing with a TD and TWO INT's.  
  • The Buckeyes had more total offense (252-189) and more yards per play (3.76-2.82) but they also had more turnovers (3-2) and gave up at Punt Return TD.  

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Honestbuckeye

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #351 on: November 19, 2020, 02:07:47 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on November 19, 2020, 01:45:10 PM
I've always considered Cooper's six point loss to Michigan in Ann Arbor in 1997 to be his best performance against the Wolverines, even better than his two wins (1994 and 1998) and the tie (1992).  What a defensive struggle that game was:
  • The offenses only combined for three TD's and one of those was a 2 yard "drive" after a fumble.  Basically each offense had one scoring drive all game long.  Only one other drive all game went for more than 35 yards and that one was an Ohio State drive the ended in an interception. 
  • The teams combined for just 161 yards rushing.  Ohio State had 119 on 41 attempts (2.9 avg) while Michigan was even worse with 42 yards on 42 attempts. 
  • The teams combined for just 280 yards passing.  Michigan had 147 yards on 14-25 passing with no TD's and no INT's.  Ohio State was even worse with 133 yards on 9-26 passing with a TD and TWO INT's. 
  • The Buckeyes had more total offense (252-189) and more yards per play (3.76-2.82) but they also had more turnovers (3-2) and gave up at Punt Return TD. 


And if I recall- Katzenmoyer dropped a sure, short pick six very late in that game. 

Stanley Jackson should have never seen the field that day.  He sucked!  Should have been Joe Germaine all day. 
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MrNubbz

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #352 on: November 19, 2020, 02:18:16 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on November 19, 2020, 01:45:10 PM
I've always considered Cooper's six point loss to Michigan in Ann Arbor in 1997 to be his best performance against the Wolverines
Are you nuts 😁 At that time Joe Gemaine had the highest passing efficiency in the conference.Yet JC(not Jesus Christ) platooned him with Stanley Jackson who threw a pick from the 8yrd line costing at least 3pts.The Defense holds Michigan and they punt back to State.The very next play Stanley hits a wide open Michigan LB Weathers(the only player around) who runs the ball 20 yds for a UM TD.Jackson choked big time cost the Buckeyes 10 pts in a game they lost by 6.The pick he thru to Woodson never should have been thrown.Then Tennessee John puts Germaine back in with a 20 pt hole.Final 20-14
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MrNubbz

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #353 on: November 19, 2020, 02:31:08 PM »
Quote from: Honestbuckeye on November 19, 2020, 02:07:47 PM
And if I recall- Katzenmoyer dropped a sure, short pick six very late in that game. 
I remember a PAT was blocked and he almost ran it back for 2pts.Many of us were beside ourselves it took 7 yrs for Johnny to beat Michigan - he should have been whacked long before that.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #354 on: November 19, 2020, 03:03:58 PM »
The main statistical outlier of the 97 UM vs 97 NU matchup is the Huskers' pass D.  It wasn't good.  However, Michigan reeeeally didn't like passing the ball (especially downfield).

If the UM coaches planned to pass more than usual from the start, I think it would be enough to help win the game.  If they slowly discovered it over the course of the game and they reluctantly passed more and more, I don't think it would matter. 

I believe, just from memory, that 97 UM's offense threw more to their RBs than any other team I've created for Whoa Nellie (~700 different teams over 50+ seasons).  That means short, safe passes.  Griese was good at avoiding losses because he wasn't put in a position to lose games. 
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #355 on: November 19, 2020, 03:47:06 PM »
Were Nebraska and Michigan destroyed by the very BCS system that they ushered in? 
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847badgerfan

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #356 on: November 19, 2020, 03:49:45 PM »

Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on November 19, 2020, 03:47:06 PM
Were Nebraska and Michigan destroyed by the very BCS system that they ushered in?
Possibly, for UNL anyway. Michigan was fine until they "fired" Lloyd. 3 bad hires later and here we are.

UNL and PSU not being able to play in 1994 started the ball rolling, I think.
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Mdot21

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #357 on: November 19, 2020, 03:50:39 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on November 19, 2020, 03:03:58 PM
The main statistical outlier of the 97 UM vs 97 NU matchup is the Huskers' pass D.  It wasn't good.  However, Michigan reeeeally didn't like passing the ball (especially downfield).

If the UM coaches planned to pass more than usual from the start, I think it would be enough to help win the game.  If they slowly discovered it over the course of the game and they reluctantly passed more and more, I don't think it would matter. 

I believe, just from memory, that 97 UM's offense threw more to their RBs than any other team I've created for Whoa Nellie (~700 different teams over 50+ seasons).  That means short, safe passes.  Griese was good at avoiding losses because he wasn't put in a position to lose games.
This is 100% correct. Griese's job was to not turn it over and let the defense win them the game. Michigan's defense only gave up 10 TD's thru 12 games in 1997. This is insanity. Which means as long as Michigan didn't turn the ball over- they were 99.9999999999% going to win the game.

Speaking of a hypothetical '97 M-NEB match-up, it really irritates me to no end that people use Nebraska steamrolling Tennessee as some sort of evidence that Nebraska would do the same to Michigan. They wouldn't. Tennessee's defense was DRASTICALLY inferior to Michigan's defense by every metric you want to use. Tennessee's defense literally gave up nearly twice as many yards on defense as Michigan's D, Tennessee allowed nearly two and a half times the amount of points per game as Michigan's D. Michigan's D clobbered every one they faced, and held every single opponent they faced to numbers significantly lower than their season averages. Take Washington State for example- they averaged 42.5 PPG, good for #2 in the country. Washington State averaged 502 yards per game on offense- good for #2 in the country. Ryan Leaf lead the country in passing yards that season with 3,968 yards and was 3rd in the country in TD passes with 34 and 2nd in the nation with passer efficiency rating of 161.18. Leaf had 1 TD and 1 INT, and was pretty much bad vs Michigan's D. Against Michigan's D, Washington State scored 16 points- by far their lowest point total of the season- and 26.5 points below their season average of 42.5 PPG.

Also- elephant in the room here- Peyton Manning was a habitual choker in not only the NFL, but his days in college. Not knocking him- he's obviously a mount rushmore QB- but it just is what it is, and the fact is- in big playoff games or rivalry games- he often choked or way underperformed. Which is crazy because his rain man brother Eli was literally not even a quarter of the player, but seems like in every big game Eli never felt the pressure and would just let his nuts hang and come up clutch time and time again.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #358 on: November 19, 2020, 03:55:51 PM »
Too much is made of Peyton going 0-3 vs Florida and not enough of his losing to Memphis.  :72:
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MrNubbz

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #359 on: November 19, 2020, 03:58:40 PM »
Peyton ran into Belichiks Patriots,he's hardly the only one to "choke".And in '04 I believe would have won had actual defensive holding/interference been called.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #360 on: November 19, 2020, 04:59:47 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on November 19, 2020, 02:18:16 PM
Are you nuts 😁 At that time Joe Gemaine had the highest passing efficiency in the conference.Yet JC(not Jesus Christ) platooned him with Stanley Jackson who threw a pick from the 8yrd line costing at least 3pts.The Defense holds Michigan and they punt back to State.The very next play Stanley hits a wide open Michigan LB Weathers(the only player around) who runs the ball 20 yds for a UM TD.Jackson choked big time cost the Buckeyes 10 pts in a game they lost by 6.The pick he thru to Woodson never should have been thrown.Then Tennessee John puts Germaine back in with a 20 pt hole.Final 20-14
I'm not saying it wasn't without mistakes but saying that it was "John Cooper's best performance against Michigan" is frankly a pretty low bar.  In 1997 he went up against a REALLY good Michigan team and came up just short.  That is way better than losing with the superior team which he did a LOT.  

I mostly agree on the Germaine/Jackson thing.  That said, here are their stats from that Michigan game:
Joe Germaine:
  • 5-17 29.4% for 84 yards (4.94 per attempt, 16.8 per completion), 1 TD, no INT, 32 yards lost on five sacks.  
Stanley Jackson:
  • 4-9 44.4% for 49 yards (5.4 per attempt, 12.3 per completion), 0 TD, 2 INT, 13 net yards on six carries.  

Jackson's two picks were obviously devastating but it isn't like Germaine lit up Michigan's D.  His sub 30% completion percentage and five sacks are abysmal.  He had one long TD pass (56 yards to David Boston) and other than that he was:
  • 4-16 25% for 28 yards (1.75 per attempt, 7 per completion), 0 TD, 0 INT, 32 yards lost on five sacks.  Other than that one play he was net negative on the day with 28 yards gained on completed passes and 32 yards lost on sacks.  

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FearlessF

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #361 on: November 19, 2020, 07:06:25 PM »
thought that might stir up the pot  ;)
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Mdot21

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #362 on: November 19, 2020, 08:49:31 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on November 19, 2020, 03:58:40 PM
Peyton ran into Belichiks Patriots,he's hardly the only one to "choke".And in '04 I believe would have won had actual defensive holding/interference been called.
Manning threw 4 or 5 INT's in that game. He was awful. I think it's hard to blame that all on a couple of uncalled PI/defensive holding calls. He was just awful in that game, by any measure.

And he is a choker. I'm not trying to knock him, it just is what it is. A lot of big games, he came up really short. It happens. I was at the Super Bowl in Miami when the Colts played the Saints and Manning threw the game clinching losing Pick 6 INT to Porter late in the 4th QTR.

It was only a 7 point game with I want to say 5-6 mins left in the 4th and plenty of time for the Colts to go on a drive and tie the game and force OT. I swear on my life I told my brother sitting next to me that Manning is going to choke and literally a few mins after I said that, Manning threw a pick 6 which effectively ended the game. That INT and return put the Saints up 14 points with only a couple mins left in the game. It was all she wrote after that play.
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MrNubbz

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #363 on: November 19, 2020, 09:01:35 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on November 19, 2020, 04:59:47 PM

Jackson's two picks were obviously devastating but it isn't like Germaine lit up Michigan's D.  His sub 30% completion percentage and five sacks are abysmal.  He had one long TD pass (56 yards to David Boston) and other than that he was:
  • 4-16 25% for 28 yards (1.75 per attempt, 7 per completion), 0 TD, 0 INT, 32 yards lost on five sacks.  Other than that one play he was net negative on the day with 28 yards gained on completed passes and 32 yards lost on sacks. 


Take that pick six away and Ohio State wins - they still have it on YT.Michigan wasn't marching up and down the field.Germaine was smart and took sacks rather than throw pix
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