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Topic: Chris Holtmann

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medinabuckeye1

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Chris Holtmann
« on: January 12, 2024, 10:50:38 AM »
Please answer as if you want the best for Ohio State.  Ie, if you are a Michigan fan who thinks he sucks don't vote "no" because you think keeping him is bad for Ohio State.  Conversely, if you are a Michigan fan who thinks he is the best tOSU can do, don't vote "yes" because you think firing him is bad for Ohio State.  

This has been a running debate between @MaximumSam and I for several years.  I have been trying to be optimistic about this season but I recently looked at a comparison to MSU based on SoS and the magnitude of this year's failure became clear to me.  Barring a miracle, Holtmann needs to go.  

I made this as a stand-alone thread because I was asked previously to put all of this in one place so here it is.  

I'm going to present my "case" as a series of posts covering different aspects of the situation such that individual aspects can be assessed and discussed more easily because if I presented my "case" as one long post, it would be enormous.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2024, 11:14:14 AM »
Exhibit A, Ohio State's history as a program:
When the AP did their All-Time College Basketball Programs Rankings a few years ago, Ohio State was #10.  I acknowledge that they are not a Blue-Blood.  Those are the top programs on the AP's list (UK, UNC, Dook, KU, UCLA) but Ohio State is in the next tier.  Within the B1G they trail only #8 IU and #9 MSU.  This program should expect maybe not quite Kentucky/Carolina/Dook/Kansas level greatness but something not too far off from that and in Holtmann's 6.5 years at the helm, he has failed to deliver anything close to that.  

Looking at this another way, I consider "modern" college Basketball to basically start with the expansion to a 64 team tournament for the 1985 season.  You can argue that is not enough or too many years but I'm not cherry-picking, I'm using that because Tournament results (appearances, S16's, E8's, F4's, etc) prior to 1985 really aren't comparable to those since.  By using 1985 as my start date, each year is more-or-less fairly comparable to each other year.  

There were 33 seasons from expansion (1985) to the last year before Holtmann came to tOSU (2016/17).  In those 33 seasons the Buckeyes had five different coaches Miller, Williams, Ayers, O'Brien, and Matta) and accomplished the following:

  • 18 NCAA Tournament appearances, a little better than one every two years.  
  • 9 league titles, a little better than one every four years.  
  • 8 S16's, not quite one every four years.  
  • 5 E8's, a little better than one every seven years.  
  • 3 F4's, one every 11 years
Holtmann is in his seventh season but there have only been six NCAA Tournaments due to the cancellation in 2020 and he has:
  • 4 NCAA Tournament appearances and this would be 5 if the 2020 Tournament had been played.  Pending the outcome this year (It doesn't look good at this point) and counting 2020 as an "appearance" because it would have been, he'll have either 5 or 6 in seven years.  Either way, this is ahead of tOSU's 1985-2017 average.  
  • 0 league titles.  Based on program history he should have at least one and the only year he was even close was 2017/18 when he had Matta's players.  We were told he inherited a difficult situation.  Ok, but if that is the case, things should have gotten better.  Instead, they have gotten worse.  Holtmann's first tOSU team went 15-3 and finished a single game out of first.  Since then they've never lost fewer than eight league games and never finished closer than 3 GB.  
  • 0 S16's.  Based on program history he should have at least one.  
  • 0 E8's.  Based on program history he should have at least one by the end of this year and (barring a miracle) he won't.  
  • 0 F4's.  Based on program history he should be half way there, he isn't.  
The only area where Holtmann has exceeded program history is appearances and even that is faltering with the miss last year and the probable miss this year.  

I put this first because, IMHO, this is the most important consideration.  After observing multitudes of coaching hires I've come to believe that it is more art than science.  There are intangible issues like "fit" that matter.  Some coaches are GREAT at mid-major schools but suck when they move up.  Sometimes it is a matter of timing.  If you get a guy who has a "new wrinkle" when that new thing is still new, he might be great but if you get him a few years later when everyone has caught up you may find that he is a one-trick-pony and his one trick is washed up.  

Thus, my view is that if your guy is below your program's average you should move on.  Even if you get it wrong, just try again.  OTOH, if the current guy is ahead of your program's average, you should keep him.  Holtmann is clearly behind my program's average and should be cashiered without delay.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2024, 11:20:20 AM »
Exhibit B, this season:
The Buckeyes are currently 2-3 in the B1G and 12-4 overall.  That may not sound too bad to you.  It wouldn't be too bad if they had played a difficult OOC or a difficult opening B1G slate but they didn't and they haven't.  Their OOC sounds better than it was because two of their opponents (UCLA, WVU) are WAY off from their historical norms.  Within the B1G, they have opened with:

  • Tier-1 UW, loss at home
  • Tier-3 MN, win at home
  • Tier-3 RU, win at home
  • Tier-4 IU, loss on the road
  • Tier-4 PSU, loss on the road
They are 2-3 despite playing a VERY easy opening slate.  They would have to improve dramatically to replicate that for the next three quadrants of the B1G season and that would only get them to 8-12 and *MAYBE* on the bubble.  


Finally, this would be acceptable if 2023/24 was a "rebuilding year" after some great accomplishment in 2022/23 but it isn't.  The Buckeyes absolutely sucked last year.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2024, 11:25:25 AM »
Exhibit C, Holtmann January:
For some reason Holtmann's teams generally have roughly a month nearly every season where they just suck.  Multiple publications have done articles on this.  The thing that a lot of them get wrong is that they assume his teams load up on creampuffs in Nov/Dec then suck when the competition stiffens in January.  That isn't exactly what is going on, on either end.  Holtmann has some VERY impressive Nov/Dec wins so they aren't simply fattening up on creampuffs.  Additionally, some of the January losses have been to HORRIBLE teams (see MN at home last year).  This isn't simply a competition issue, for some reason Holtmann's teams just turn to crap most seasons for roughly the month of January.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2024, 11:32:04 AM »
Exhibit D, Tournament Record:
Holtmann's NCAA Tournament record at Ohio State is 3-4.  On the surface that doesn't look all that bad but when you look deeper, it sucks.  The three wins were over a #12, a #10, and a #6.  The four losses were to a #15, a #4, a #3, and a #2.  

The loss as a #2 seed to a #15 seed was awful.  That would be ok if there were offsetting good wins but there aren't.  Izzo, Coach K, and other greats lost to a #15 as a #2 but Holtmann is no Izzo.  

Here is Holtmann's all-time (includes his time at Butler) NCAA Tournament record:

He only made the S16 in 2017 because #5 Minnesota got upset by #12 MTSU in the opening round which allowed Holtmann's Butler team to make the S16 on a path of 13/12.  Then they lost to #1.  

His best-ever NCAA Tournament win was at Ohio State in 2019 as a #11 seed knocking off #6 ISU.  Whoop Dee Doo.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2024, 11:32:24 AM »
More to come after lunch.  

847badgerfan

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2024, 11:40:49 AM »
My question would be who is gonna replace him?

Got a list of potential candidates?
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2024, 01:39:13 PM »
Exhibit E, "Luck" = coaching:
The headline on 11 Warriors after the Wisconsin loss ended with "As Badgers End Game on 19-4 run".  That run converted a 56-52 Ohio State lead into a double-digit Wisconsin win.  For Ohio State fans that sounded oddly familiar.  It has been a consistent theme.  The Buckeyes led Penn State by 18 and still managed to choke away the win against a crap team.  Last year in a game against Purdue the Buckeyes absolutely had the Boilermakers dead to rights and somehow found a way to choke it away.  

During last season's collapse Ohio State's computer rankings stayed remarkably high despite their abysmal W/L record because they lost a ton of close games.  KenPom tracks this, they call it "Luck" and @ELA pointed out that Ohio State was DEAD LAST in KenPom's "Luck" ranking.  

To be fair, some of this IS random luck.  If you have 10 games end on shots that are in the air at the buzzer the average team is going to go 5-5 in those games but randomness dictates that some will go 6-4, 7-3, or even 8-2 while others go 4-6, 3-7, or even 2-8.  I have no doubt that if you researched each of Izzo's seasons you'd find one where his team's KenPom "Luck" ranking was pretty low.  The issue here is consistency.  If a team has bad luck one year, you hope for better luck next year.  When a team consistently has bad "luck" it isn't luck, it is coaching.  

ELA

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2024, 01:41:15 PM »
My question would be who is gonna replace him?

Got a list of potential candidates?
Saban

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2024, 01:44:24 PM »
Exhibit F, Trajectory:
Holtmann's defenders have said that he inherited a mess.  That excuse obviously gets old.  This is his seventh year, not his second.  More importantly, the best team Holtmann ever coached was his first, the 2017/18 Buckeyes.  He went 25-9 overall (.735) and 15-3 in the B1G (.833) that year.  Since then he is 110-70 (.611) overall and 50-55 (.476) in the league.  

ELA

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2024, 01:47:04 PM »
I have no doubt that if you researched each of Izzo's seasons you'd find one where his team's KenPom "Luck" ranking was pretty low. 
MSU is #357 out of #362 this year

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2024, 01:52:36 PM »
My question would be who is gonna replace him?

Got a list of potential candidates?
I don't have a list and frankly I don't care.  I started (Exhibit A) with a comparison of Holtmann's performance to the program average.  Holtmann is clearly below the program average and therefore:
Thus, my view is that if your guy is below your program's average you should move on.  Even if you get it wrong, just try again.  OTOH, if the current guy is ahead of your program's average, you should keep him.  Holtmann is clearly behind my program's average and should be cashiered without delay. 
The average coach at Ohio State wins the league about every four years.  The average coach at Ohio State makes it beyond the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament about once every four years.  The average coach at Ohio State makes it to the Elite Eight about once every seven years.  Holtmann is nowhere close to that.  Consequently, the average coach would be a major improvement.  Bring me the average coach!  

As I said in the earlier post, I believe that coaching hires are more art than science.  I don't think there is a sure-fire formula.  What I do know is that the average hire is average and Holtmann isn't so the new hire has a better than 50/50 chance of being better than Holtmann.  I'll take those odds.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2024, 02:27:26 PM »
Exhibit G, B1G performance:
Here is tOSU's B1G record each year along with BTT seed, BTT performance, NCAA seed, and NCAA Tournament performance:

  • 2018:  15-3, 1GB, #2 in B1G, 0-1 in BTT, #5 in NCAA, 1-1 beat #12, lost to #4
  • 2019:  8-12, 8GB, #8 in B1G, 1-1 in BTT, #11 in NCAA, 1-1 beat #6, lost to #3
  • 2020:  11-9, 3GB, #7 in B1G, BTT and NCAA cancelled due to COVID-19
  • 2021:  12-8, 3.5GB, #5 in B1G, 3-1 in BTT, #2 in NCAA, 0-1 lost to #15
  • 2022:  12-8, 3GB, #6 in B1G, 0-1 in BTT, #7 in NCAA, 1-1 beat #10, lost to #2
  • 2023:  5-15, 10GB, #13 in B1G, 3-1 in BTT, LoL at NCAA
  • 2024:  2-3, 2.5GB, #10 in B1G
I don't really care all that much about BTT performance but this is yet another area where Holtmann has been terrible.  He is 7-5 overall which sounds good until you realize that six of the seven wins were squandered:
  • They went 3-1 as the #13 seed in 2023 but they sucked so bad that it was irrelevant because they would have had to win the whole thing to get to the NCAA Tournament.  
  • They went 3-1 in2021 which earned them a #2 seed in the NCAA but they immediately squandered that by losing to a #15 seed.  


The problem with the regular season isn't so much that they haven't won the B1G it is that they haven't even been close.  At least if they had been in the mix there would have been some reason for fans in Columbus to get excited about Basketball but we haven't had that since 2018.  Without excitement the fans don't show and that leads to Exhibit H:

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Chris Holtmann
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2024, 02:30:48 PM »
Exhibit H, attendance:
I'm putting this one pretty far down on the list but it may well be #1 on Gene Smith's list.  @MaximumSam complains that the Arena sucks and I don't entirely disagree but if nobody shows up it doesn't matter where you play your games and attendance is drying up because the product on the court isn't competitive.  I've been there when the Buckeyes were in the league title race and I've seen that place packed and rocking for games against fellow league title contenders so I KNOW it can happen but it isn't going to happen for a middling team with a sub-middling coach contending for the #10 seed in the BTT.  Nobody cares and it shows.  

 

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