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Topic: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion

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FearlessF

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2018, 08:28:25 PM »
Uhhh, then the XII needs to tell ESPN "tough crap" and add who they want.  And have a more valid CCG.  
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LittlePig

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2018, 08:50:33 PM »
I like the idea of an 8 team playoff and just taking the top 6 conference champions, regardless of whether they are from a G5 or P5 conference, plus 2 at large teams.

 Usually that will mean 5 P5 champions and 1 G5 champion, but if there is a year where an 8-5 team wins a P5, they might not get picked over the AAC and MWC champions.

I like the idea of keeping the number of at large teams to a low number like 2 because i much prefer teams that deserve a shot over teams that may be better, but blew it.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2018, 09:47:42 PM »
Guys, if each conference had 10 members and everyone played everyone else, I'd understand this worship of the conference champion.  But it's not that way.

Conference schedules are wildly imbalanced.  Conferences don't even play the same number of conference games.  And so we end up with conference champs with more losses than 2nd place finishers, conference champs with crap schedules, and the like.  Everything is so imbalanced that we can't automatically make a conference champ get all the brownie points.  

USC played 4 ranked teams in the regular season, none of which was higher than 14th, and went 2-2 in those games.  Then, in their CCG, they beat a team they already beat.  Cool.  Winning the 4th or 5th-best conference maybe doesn't mean as much as finishing 2nd in the best or next best conference.  You have to allow for that possibility.  

And everyone knew the B10 shot itself in the foot when everyone but Wisconsin had 2 losses.  We KNEW they were screwed.  Ohio State finishing outside of the playoff was likely back on November 4.  And lo:  we still have a bitch-fest going on now.

We already knew this was the most likely outcome.  Why all the outrage still?  Because OSU looked good against USC?  Really?
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2018, 09:49:27 PM »
The BCS had it right - 2 teams.  I'd like the computers back, using their best, original formulas (not the compromised bastard versions).  I want 50% human voters and 50% computers and to adhere to it without tweaks or knee-jerk reactions.

“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

ohio1317

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2018, 10:13:47 PM »
I know most disagree with me, but I say what we have right now in college football is about perfect.  Do not mess it up by expanding the playoff/taking out the bowls.

Did it suck being left out this year?  Sure, but so what?  We lost 2 games and left it up to a judgement call on whether we would be in or out.  We lost, but that was our problem for leaving it up to the committee in the first place.

The college football regular season is the best in any sport with nationally meaningful games every week.  The second you start adding in all conferences champs automatically to the playoff, that goes out the window.  I can tell you right now, I don't care a lick about what happens in PAC-12 or ACC basketball because it doesn't effect anything for me.  I also don't care about #1 vs. #2 games happening out of conference in basketball in the regular season unless I am at home and just happen to turn on.  They just really don't seem to matter or have any large significance beyond the night they are played.  College football is the complete reverse where loosing any week can seriously hurt you.

I get the NFL works well, but college football will never succeed to the best of its ability if it takes an NFL lite approach.  It is naturally a regional sport for the regular season unless you give viewers higher stakes (for instance a #1 team loosing potentially throwing it out of the playoff bowls), which is the direction they choose. 

Beyond all this, I guess its just personal preference, but I really like the the idea of major bowl wins being a big deal and the national championship not being an end all/be all to how we organize things.  This system has significant victories that are not national championships.

Kris61

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2018, 10:55:01 PM »
First off, 16 teams is a terrible idea. The more teams you allow in the more you are destroying what makes CFB great which is its regular season.

Secondly, everyone wants conference champion auto bids but the way these conferences decide champions is stupid.  Last year Ohio St had a better conference record than Wisconsin and beat term head to head.  Yet Wisconsin went to the CCG. Does that sound right to anyone?  Yeah, me either.

Oklahoma had the best conference record in a round robin format in the Big 12.  Yet they had to go beat TCU (again) to be declared the champion.  Does that make sense?

Auburn, Georgia, and Alabama all had 7-1 conference records and Auburn had wins over both of them but had to go play UGA again to be the champion.

USC had the best record in the PAC 12 and had already beat Stanford but had to beat them again to be declared champions.

It is entirely possible to go undefeated in your division yet not be the division champion and get to play in the CCG.  College football is different from other sports so let's quit trying to compare it to other sports.  It makes a little more sense for conference/division champions in other sports to get automatic bids because they all play each other, often multiple times. That isn't the case in college football. If one season the Yankees and Red Sox just didn't play each other would anyone feel as good about whoever the AL East champion was going to the playoffs?

So if these conferences can't apply common sense to determine their champs I don't mind if a committee of people get together and do it.  Yeah, it's subjective and has its flaws but I can live with them.  I like the idea of trying to reward sustained, season long consistency.  I like trying to pick the best even if it isn't entirely possible to do that.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2018, 11:16:31 PM »
Yeah, since we're not going back in time to smaller conferences, we'll have to hope for four 18-team conferences.  2 divisions of 9 teams each.  Each school plays all the others in its division, maybe one from the other division, I don't know.

Basically the equivalent of 8 smaller conferences jammed into 4 mega-conferences.  We basically just need some sort of uniform scheduling.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

847badgerfan

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2018, 07:00:48 AM »
Uhhh, then the XII needs to tell ESPN "tough crap" and add who they want.  And have a more valid CCG.  
It's never a wise thing to piss off your primary investor.

The XII gets something like $30Mil per member school (maybe more??), and I'm sure the TV guys are already wondering why they are paying $30Mil for some of the existing ones with little itty-bitty fan bases.

Then you're gonna throw Cincy and UCF at them too? 

Good luck at the next negotiating round.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2018, 01:40:05 PM »
Let's have the most important regular season of any sport.  Please?
The most important regular season of any sport? 

What's more important during any regular season? Winning your conference championship. That's what's in your control. 
The committee has said two things carry a lot of weight. Strength of schedule OOC and winning your conference championship. 
Ohio State scheduled tough. They're in the B1G East and played 4 teams that finished in the final rankings, beating #6 and #9 and #18 and losing to the eventual #2. So they scheduled tough and won their CCG. Of course they were punished for losing to Iowa, which I understand, but if they'd beaten Oklahoma, won their CCG, and lost by 31 to Iowa they'd still have gotten in as a 12-1 conference champion. Alabama didn't play any OOC games with the same level of competition as Oklahoma.
Alabama played a terrible 6-6 FSU team, two MWC teams, and an FCS team. They only played 3 teams that finished in the final rankings, and lost to the only top-10 team they faced. They perhaps intended to schedule tough, but it turns out that their tough matchup with FSU wasn't actually tough. And then they didn't even make their CCG. 
Wisconsin didn't schedule particularly tough nor did they win their CCG [although they at least made it there]. They only faced 2 ranked teams (one less than Alabama) and won one against eventual #20, losing to their only top 10 opponent. But at least they didn't schedule an FCS team. But we all know why Wisconsin wasn't selected: not enough "helmet". 
Now I'm not saying OSU should have been in over Alabama. What I'm saying is that the selection committee is arbitrary, subjective, uses their stated rationale when they feel like it and discards it when they feel like it. They say they value SOS and conference championships, but what it appears they really value is helmet. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2018, 01:58:52 PM »
I should point out that while I stated there is a dichotomy between "best teams" and "most deserving", I would point out that there's a different dichotomy sometimes at work here:

One group cares about the results and doesn't necessarily care about the process that gets there.

The other group cares about the process and if the process is sound, accepts whatever the results are. 

I fall into the second group. The group that says "show me what I need to accomplish". 

Is it going undefeated? Well, in the BCS era it wasn't, as there were several years where there were too many undefeated teams for the system to accommodate. 

Is it scheduling tough and winning your CCG, as the committee says is valued? Well, that's what OSU did and if they hadn't lost the tough game they scheduled [that Bama did not] they undoubtedly would have gotten in at 12-1 with a CCG even with the bad loss to Iowa. The committee would have said that the good win outweighs the bad loss, when Bama didn't have any opportunity at good OOC wins. Still, OSU had two top-10 wins while Bama had none, and 3 ranked wins to Bama's 2. 

Why do I take it personally? Because I'm not a fan of a helmet school. Purdue will *never* get selected for the CFP unless they go 13-0 with a B1G championship game win. If they get into the championship game at 11-1 and finish 12-1, they will *always* be the odd man out unless there are no other helmets that are close. I honestly believe that if Bama finished with an SEC championship at 11-2, they'd be selected over a team like Purdue in a heartbeat. They'll find a rationale to exclude a non-helmet any time they can possibly justify it. Heck, Wisconsin is a quasi-helmet but an 12-1 B1G Champion Wisconsin (with their schedule) could very easily have been passed over for Alabama based on strength of schedule, which the committee would actually care about when it suits them.

I see huge flaws in the process, to the point where I know the process is a joke and the system is meant to reward helmet. I'd rather have a fair process even if it means some year that Iowa goes 10-3 with an OOC loss, two conference losses (but winning the tiebreaker to make the CCG and winning it) and gets into the playoff as the B1G champion. I value process over results. I'm an engineer, after all ;)

FearlessF

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2018, 02:03:23 PM »

The committee has said two things carry a lot of weight. Strength of schedule OOC and winning your conference championship. 
yup, they are liars.
Should simply keep their yaps shut
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2018, 02:25:49 PM »
Heck, Wisconsin is a quasi-helmet but an 12-1 B1G Champion Wisconsin (with their schedule) could very easily have been passed over for Alabama based on strength of schedule, which the committee would actually care about when it suits them.


Well, that would've REALLY pissed me off this year because Wisconsin had a stronger schedule.

Not sure about the quasi-helmet comment though. There is probably no such thing. You are or you're not, if you are not you can never be, based on what I've read here and elsewhere.
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FearlessF

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2018, 02:31:07 PM »
quasi-helmet is a huge step above an also-ran or have-not

wisconsin huge step above Northwestern or Illinois

"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

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Re: CFB Is Terrible At Crowning a Champion
« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2018, 02:48:25 PM »
Maybe right now, but there is no test as to what happens when a certain King decides to hang 'em up.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

 

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