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Topic: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?

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ALA2262

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2021, 11:07:00 AM »
Quote from: bamajoe on January 13, 2021, 06:24:59 PM
Medina, what great research? I love it. There are a couple things imo you are not giving sufficient emphasis. If you will notice Ohio State, LSU and Texas all have one substandard class which dramatically reduces their average ranking. Secondly, the differences between one, two, three, four, etc are usually miniscule. One team has a couple more four or five stars than another which represents very little when spread over 25 kids and three years.                                                                                             

Secondly, Alabama does not dominate recruiting. We do have great recruiting but so do LSU, Georgia, Texas A&M, Ohio State and Clemson. The idea that Alabama gets every recruit it wants is a myth. All these teams have players we wanted. It could be Nick Saban is simply better than everybody else.

Exactly, and to emphasize the point I'm going to post a comment from a poster on another board.

"Proof that it's more than just talent on the field to build a winning program. If you don't have a talented HC, all the four and five star players in the world wont help you - they're just get to the wrong spot on the field faster."
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utee94

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2021, 11:26:50 AM »
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on January 14, 2021, 10:42:10 AM
If a team goes twice or more and nobody notices, were they really there?
It's better than not going at all.  So... sort of?
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ELA

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2021, 11:52:10 AM »
Nicole Auerbach was noting how the 4 team CFP is just dividing the haves into an extreme upper crust of haves.

It's basically, you want to win a title?  You have three choices.  And nothing else matters.

You go to 8, you add auto-bids.  Hey, maybe Northwestern can pull an upset and go.  I don't know.  But the gap is only growing because if you choose to go anywhere other than Alabama, Clemson or Ohio State, you are basically saying "I have no interest in winning a national title" in an age where ESPN is telling everyone that it is the only thing that matters.

We took the best regular season in sports, and maybe made it the worst.  Even if Clemson overlooks Syracuse, or Alabama overlooks Ole Miss, or Ohio State overlooks Purdue, eh 1 loss doesn't end anything.  They'll still likely get into a CCG, when they are laser focused, and will likely win.  Or if not, they'll be #4.

It's a great system for determining who the best team is.  Better than the old system, because it's still small enough that no "fluke" team can win, but now it's big enough that there are enough fail-safes built in for the best teams to get beyond one fluky upset.  So if what you want is to know who the "best" team is, it's nearly perfect.  But at what cost to the entertainment value?
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utee94

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2021, 12:06:47 PM »
Quote from: ELA on January 14, 2021, 11:52:10 AM
Nicole Auerbach was noting how the 4 team CFP is just dividing the haves into an extreme upper crust of haves.

It's basically, you want to win a title?  You have three choices.  And nothing else matters.

You go to 8, you add auto-bids.  Hey, maybe Northwestern can pull an upset and go.  I don't know.  But the gap is only growing because if you choose to go anywhere other than Alabama, Clemson or Ohio State, you are basically saying "I have no interest in winning a national title" in an age where ESPN is telling everyone that it is the only thing that matters.

We took the best regular season in sports, and maybe made it the worst.  Even if Clemson overlooks Syracuse, or Alabama overlooks Ole Miss, or Ohio State overlooks Purdue, eh 1 loss doesn't end anything.  They'll still likely get into a CCG, when they are laser focused, and will likely win.  Or if not, they'll be #4.

It's a great system for determining who the best team is.  Better than the old system, because it's still small enough that no "fluke" team can win, but now it's big enough that there are enough fail-safes built in for the best teams to get beyond one fluky upset.  So if what you want is to know who the "best" team is, it's nearly perfect.  But at what cost to the entertainment value?

I understand the sentiment, but I don't really agree with the premise.

Alabama isn't consistently the best team in the SEC and the best team in the NCAA over the past decade because they go to the CFP so often, it's the other way around.  And just last year, Alabama didn't win the SEC and didn't go to the CFP.  There's nothing stopping another SEC team from getting into the CFP-- other than most years not being as good as Alabama.

Clemson is a quality team in an extremely weak conference. But it's not the CFP that's making them the best team in the ACC and usually undefeated, again it's the other way around.  There's nothing stopping another ACC team from going undefeated and getting into the CFP-- nothing except Clemson, that is.  And although Clemson is an historically decent team, it's not like their current success is built on being an elite helmet team for decades.  They weren't, and they aren't.

I'll certainly agree that some teams are just never going to get there. Kansas.  Vanderbilt. Wake Forest.  They're not ever going to get into the CFP, but they also weren't ever going to get into the BCS or Alliance or major bowls in the days of yore.

Well, except when Mangino was at Kansas of course....
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2021, 12:11:43 PM »
That's what I always have in mind:  competition vs entertainment.  I probably lean too far towards competition, but I'm aware of that.  I am flexible enough that this 4-team playoff is okay and MAYBE a 6-teamer with 5 conference champs +1.  I'm not a fan of automatically including a G5 team, though.  To me, they haven't earned it - the program hasn't earned it.  I'd always give the extra spot to an at-large P5 team, with a caveat:  if at all possible, it goes to a team that didn't get a chance to face its conference champion.  So say Iowa goes 11-1, is the West co-champ with 11-1 Wisconsin, but doesn't play in the CCG with an East winner, they'd be a prime candidate.  
.
For people who want 8 or more teams, go watch college basketball.  No, I'm not saying look at the model it creates, literally, just go watch it and leave football alone.  For all of you who want the results of the games to matter, how can you be in favor of an overly-inclusive playoff?  I don't want any system letting a 3-loss quirk win it all.  Or a 2-loss team who lost to 2 teams above it already.  
.
In an ideal world for me, we'd go back to the old bowl system and have a +1 when necessary after the bowls.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2021, 12:14:58 PM »
The Orange Bowl has been the home of some "rogue wave" teams in recent history:
2007 Kansas
2006 Louisville AND Wake Forest
2008 Cincinnati
2012 Northern Illinois
2013 Mississippi State
2018 Virginia
.
These are not your traditional programs, lol.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

ELA

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2021, 12:29:03 PM »
Quote from: utee94 on January 14, 2021, 12:06:47 PM
I understand the sentiment, but I don't really agree with the premise.

Alabama isn't consistently the best team in the SEC and the best team in the NCAA over the past decade because they go to the CFP so often, it's the other way around.  And just last year, Alabama didn't win the SEC and didn't go to the CFP.  There's nothing stopping another SEC team from getting into the CFP-- other than most years not being as good as Alabama.

Clemson is a quality team in an extremely weak conference. But it's not the CFP that's making them the best team in the ACC and usually undefeated, again it's the other way around.  There's nothing stopping another ACC team from going undefeated and getting into the CFP-- nothing except Clemson, that is.  And although Clemson is an historically decent team, it's not like their current success is built on being an elite helmet team for decades.  They weren't, and they aren't.

I'll certainly agree that some teams are just never going to get there. Kansas.  Vanderbilt. Wake Forest.  They're not ever going to get into the CFP, but they also weren't ever going to get into the BCS or Alliance or major bowls in the days of yore.

Well, except when Mangino was at Kansas of course....

No, I don't think she's saying that.  Simply that it has resulted in cementing the top teams even farther
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utee94

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2021, 12:31:47 PM »
Quote from: ELA on January 14, 2021, 12:29:03 PM
No, I don't think she's saying that.  Simply that it has resulted in cementing the top teams even farther
I think them being the best teams in the country over the same span as the CFP, is what has done that.  I see correlation but not causation.



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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2021, 12:34:00 PM »
She also said that the regular season has been tarnished because a loss to Purdue doesn't keep OSU out of the playoffs, and she says this in spite of the fact that a loss to Purdue kept OSU out of the Playoffs. 
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Riffraft

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2021, 03:25:32 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on January 14, 2021, 12:11:43 PM
That's what I always have in mind:  competition vs entertainment.  I probably lean too far towards competition, but I'm aware of that.  I am flexible enough that this 4-team playoff is okay and MAYBE a 6-teamer with 5 conference champs +1.  I'm not a fan of automatically including a G5 team, though.  To me, they haven't earned it - the program hasn't earned it.  I'd always give the extra spot to an at-large P5 team, with a caveat:  if at all possible, it goes to a team that didn't get a chance to face its conference champion.  So say Iowa goes 11-1, is the West co-champ with 11-1 Wisconsin, but doesn't play in the CCG with an East winner, they'd be a prime candidate. 
.
For people who want 8 or more teams, go watch college basketball.  No, I'm not saying look at the model it creates, literally, just go watch it and leave football alone.  For all of you who want the results of the games to matter, how can you be in favor of an overly-inclusive playoff?  I don't want any system letting a 3-loss quirk win it all.  Or a 2-loss team who lost to 2 teams above it already. 
.
In an ideal world for me, we'd go back to the old bowl system and have a +1 when necessary after the bowls.
A cold breeze is blowing through h*ll, I am completely agreeing with you  :)
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2021, 04:33:27 PM »
Quote from: utee94 on January 14, 2021, 12:31:47 PM
I think them being the best teams in the country over the same span as the CFP, is what has done that.  I see correlation but not causation.




Yeah. 
If you view Alabama's recent run as an outlier (you know, since it's unprecedented), and look at the rest....
Clemson reigns in a weak ACC.  If the playoff had started 2 years earlier, FSU was owning the conference.
OSU reigns in...not a weak B1G, it's actually very strong, imo.  But with a lot of good teams and no great ones to challenge the Buckeyes.
OU has owned the XII for some time now....and has as often as it hasn't since the conference was born.  But if the playoff started in 04, we'd have Texas fatigue, 5 years in.
And in the PAC, if the playoff started post-Carroll @ USC, we'd have Oregon and Stanford taking turns.
All this while ND has happened to be good.  They more often happen not to be, since disco died.
.
I just agree with you.
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utee94

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2021, 04:39:11 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on January 14, 2021, 04:33:27 PM

.
I just agree with you.



Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on January 14, 2021, 12:11:43 PM
That's what I always have in mind:  competition vs entertainment.  I probably lean too far towards competition, but I'm aware of that.  I am flexible enough that this 4-team playoff is okay and MAYBE a 6-teamer with 5 conference champs +1.  I'm not a fan of automatically including a G5 team, though.  To me, they haven't earned it - the program hasn't earned it.  I'd always give the extra spot to an at-large P5 team, with a caveat:  if at all possible, it goes to a team that didn't get a chance to face its conference champion.  So say Iowa goes 11-1, is the West co-champ with 11-1 Wisconsin, but doesn't play in the CCG with an East winner, they'd be a prime candidate. 
.
For people who want 8 or more teams, go watch college basketball.  No, I'm not saying look at the model it creates, literally, just go watch it and leave football alone.  For all of you who want the results of the games to matter, how can you be in favor of an overly-inclusive playoff?  I don't want any system letting a 3-loss quirk win it all.  Or a 2-loss team who lost to 2 teams above it already. 
.
In an ideal world for me, we'd go back to the old bowl system and have a +1 when necessary after the bowls.

And I agree with you pretty much on all of this.  Will wonders never cease? :)
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2021, 04:44:02 PM »
The last part would be especially interesting if we had a committee voting on whether a +1 was needed and who would play in it.  THAT would get people talking.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

utee94

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Re: Breaking up Bama: How to save college football?
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2021, 04:51:17 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on January 14, 2021, 04:44:02 PM
The last part would be especially interesting if we had a committee voting on whether a +1 was needed and who would play in it.  THAT would get people talking.
I can only imagine how controversial it would be.  Sounds like fun!
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