header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Basketball Coaching Carousel

 (Read 15838 times)

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14357
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2023, 11:42:01 AM »

Quote
Isn't the big complaint about Holtmann that he doesn't develop his players??? Or do much with the more talented ones?
I'm not sure who is making that complaint. EJ Liddell developed into an NBA pick. Duane Washington also has been flitting around the NBA as well. Recruiting has been good, development has been good. My general complaint is the the roster is usually a bit rough from an athletic standpoint and they can be uninspired on defense. For better or worse, he has had a hard time getting a veteran team together. The better teams in basketball are usually a solid group of veterans with perhaps some younger talented guys or transfers to plug in holes. Getting that kind of team has been weirdly challenging for OSU, especially since Holtmann said that's what he wants. 

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9763
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2023, 03:21:01 PM »
First off, from my perspective I don't care exactly what the problem is. The fact is that we are in year 6 and the HC is responsible recruiting, development, and x's and o's. There clearly IS a problem.

That said, IMHO right now it is an x's and o's problem. The Buckeyes, have a considerable amount of talent but right now, as I see it, they are five talented guys who coincidentally wore matching outfits and they are consistently losing to TEAMS made up of less, and sometimes considerably less talented individual players. As I said upthread, the whole is less than the sum of the parts.

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14357
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2023, 04:20:44 PM »
First off, from my perspective I don't care exactly what the problem is. The fact is that we are in year 6 and the HC is responsible recruiting, development, and x's and o's. There clearly IS a problem.

That said, IMHO right now it is an x's and o's problem. The Buckeyes, have a considerable amount of talent but right now, as I see it, they are five talented guys who coincidentally wore matching outfits and they are consistently losing to TEAMS made up of less, and sometimes considerably less talented individual players. As I said upthread, the whole is less than the sum of the parts.
I don't know about that. Not sure what you are seeing to say they have a "considerable" amount of talent. Sensabaugh looks like an NBA guy, and he is also a very flawed player right now because he doesn't pass or play defense. Other than that, just a bunch of guys. My biggest disappointment is Justice Sueing can't shoot straight. 

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9763
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2023, 10:07:07 PM »
I don't know about that. Not sure what you are seeing to say they have a "considerable" amount of talent. Sensabaugh looks like an NBA guy, and he is also a very flawed player right now because he doesn't pass or play defense. Other than that, just a bunch of guys. My biggest disappointment is Justice Sueing can't shoot straight.
First, as I said above, I really don't care exactly what the problem is. Our program has failed either at talent identification, recruitment, development, or coaching and the HC is ultimately responsible for all of those things so arguing about which ones he has failed at most/least severely is somewhat akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. No matter how the deck chairs are arranged the ship is still sinking. Same here, regardless of which aspect of the job he has failed most miserably at, the team still sucks, the program is still sinking, and the best way to get out of a hole is to stop digging. Gene Smith needs to stop the digging by making a change.

That said, I think that tOSU is easily in the top half of the B1G in talent yet they are in the bottom fifth in performance which leads me to my assertion that the whole is less than the sum of the parts.

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14357
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2023, 10:41:56 PM »
First, as I said above, I really don't care exactly what the problem is. Our program has failed either at talent identification, recruitment, development, or coaching and the HC is ultimately responsible for all of those things so arguing about which ones he has failed at most/least severely is somewhat akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. No matter how the deck chairs are arranged the ship is still sinking. Same here, regardless of which aspect of the job he has failed most miserably at, the team still sucks, the program is still sinking, and the best way to get out of a hole is to stop digging. Gene Smith needs to stop the digging by making a change.

That said, I think that tOSU is easily in the top half of the B1G in talent yet they are in the bottom fifth in performance which leads me to my assertion that the whole is less than the sum of the parts.
Yeah I can't get behind that. This team was a 2 seed two years ago. The recruiting is as good as it has been in a decade. As far as talent, it's an interesting question. I'd say Purdue, Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa are clearly more talented than OSU right now. Of the remainder, OSU matches up ok with talent but is far, far behind in experience. I'd say they are clearly more talented than Nebraska and Minny. There is no good argument that they are blowing some great collection of talent this year. That's crazy.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9763
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2023, 05:17:09 AM »
Yeah I can't get behind that. This team was a 2 seed two years ago.
That resulted in one of the 11 most embarrassing losses in the history of the NCAA Tournament*.
The recruiting is as good as it has been in a decade.
Wake me up when we have something to show for it. Oh, you might want to wake up the rest of the fanbase too because our arena was roughly half filled for the Wisconsin loss. That, more than anything will seal Holtmann's fate. Gene Smith can't sell tickets because the program has stagnated.
As far as talent, it's an interesting question. I'd say Purdue, Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa are clearly more talented than OSU right now. Of the remainder, OSU matches up ok with talent but is far, far behind in experience. I'd say they are clearly more talented than Nebraska and Minny. There is no good argument that they are blowing some great collection of talent this year. That's crazy.
I have only a slightly different view here, but like I said, I don't care. It is a pick-your-poison situation, either:
  • Holtmann has failed as an identifier of talent leading to tOSU recruiting the wrong guys, or
  • Holtmann has failed as a recruiter of talent leading to tOSU not getting the right guys, or
  • Holtmann has failed as a developer of talent, or
  • Holtmann has failed as a GameDay coach of talent.
Identifying which of the four is correct is purely academic. All four start with the same phrase, "Holtmann has failed".


*Losing to a #15 as a #2 isn't a mortal sin. The year after Holtmann did it, Calapari did it. The #2 seed coach to lose immediately prior to Holtmann was Izzo. Coach K did it a few years before that. I don't think I need to explain the difference.

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14357
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2023, 07:09:57 AM »
Quote
Wake me up when we have something to show for it. Oh, you might want to wake up the rest of the fanbase too because our arena was roughly half filled for the Wisconsin loss. That, more than anything will seal Holtmann's fate. Gene Smith can't sell tickets because the program has stagnated.
That's been an issue forever, because OSU has a crappy arena and lukewarm fan support.

Anyway, sometimes programs have crappy seasons. I'm simply pointing out that you keep saying the program is sinking or whatever and I don't see much evidence of that. They are definitely having a crappy year, but when the team is mostly freshmen and transfers it is disappointing but not shocking. 

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9763
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2023, 11:08:48 AM »
That's been an issue forever, because OSU has a crappy arena and lukewarm fan support.
I'm not thrilled with the design of Value City Arena but I think the set-up there has improved.

The "lukewarm fan support" is a chicken and egg issue. Attendance would be better if the team provided something worth cheering for. You can't expect people to pack the arena for a team this bad. If we were contending with Purdue for the league title the arena would be full. Instead we are contending with Nebraska for the the #12 seed in the B1G Tournament and the arena is half full. This should not surprise anyone.
Anyway, sometimes programs have crappy seasons. I'm simply pointing out that you keep saying the program is sinking or whatever and I don't see much evidence of that. They are definitely having a crappy year, but when the team is mostly freshmen and transfers it is disappointing but not shocking.
Rebuilding years are understandable but I don't agree that we are in one:
  • Last season (2021/2022) we finished 3 games out of the league title.
  • 2021, 3.5 games out.
  • 2020, 3 games out.
  • 2019, 8 games out.
  • 2018, 1 game out.

Even if this is a rebuilding year it follows mediocrity and there is no reason to believe that it preceeds anything better than more mediocrity.

If this is good enough, why did we fire Matta? He had earned the benefit of the doubt!

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8506
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2023, 11:38:50 AM »
I think y’all have said all the things on the matter. 

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14357
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2023, 03:07:05 PM »

Quote
If this is good enough, why did we fire Matta? He had earned the benefit of the doubt!
That one is easy. The teams had dropped off, but so did everything else. The recruiting was bad. There was constant upheaval on the rosters. I loved Matta, but by the end the program was in rough shape and there was little reason to think things would improve. In fact, it was Kyle Young picking Butler and Chris Holtmann over the Buckeyes that got Gene convinced to try and change things up. 

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14357
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2023, 03:07:23 PM »
I think y’all have said all the things on the matter.
Oh we can repeat this for decades.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9763
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2023, 10:49:13 AM »
11Warriors notes this morning that:
"With nine losses in its last 10 games, Ohio State men's basketball is in quite the funk. It's probably better to call it a historic funk, as Chris Holtmann's squad is currently in the program's worst stretch since 1997-98, when the Buckeyes lost 19 of their final 20 contests in Jim O'Brien's first year as head coach."

Quite frankly, I think you are minimizing @MaximumSam . This isn't merely a crappy season which I agree that teams have, this is Ohio State's worst stretch in more than a quarter century.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9763
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2023, 01:32:22 AM »
With each new low this team "achieves", the defenses of Holtmann become more laughably absurd.

This is NOT merely an "off year". I'll be 50 in a couple years and this is the worst stretch of Buckeye basketball since I was a 22 year old college student. 

The only plausible defense of Holtmann after last year was consistency. He didn't have any great years but he always made the Tournament. Now he has a low that is REALLY low and no highs to offset it.

These players are fairly talented but the longer they spend with this staff, the worse they get. 

The staff has lost this team and this season. At this point they aren't even better than Minnesota. 

It is way past time to accept reality and move on.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9763
  • Liked:
Re: Basketball Coaching Carousel
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2023, 01:55:39 AM »
N'western's 69-63 win @ Ohio St. Thu. is its 1st @ OSU since 2016-17 & 2nd in 39 games over 46 seasons

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.