Ohio State should hire Mike Bray.That's silly. We are getting Rich Pitino.
Done and done.
First off, an excellent, spirited rundown of the Holtmann era; very informative. Is the speculation of Holtmann to Notre Dame realistic? That just seems off. The Fighting Irish would be willingly hiring a rather underwhelming quantity at this point. Holtmann’s story arch is that of the upstanding Midwestern son hitting his ceiling several years ago, and we, in our Midwestern propriety, aren’t at the point of pointing this out and moving on.Thank you.
With the number of Big Ten basketball powers seemingly coasting this year, you’d think this would be the time Holtmann would most need to break the frustrating plateau his tenure with the Buckeyes has become. Especially with a prime recruiting class last year. Ranked 8 last year – with Sensabaugh as the outstanding contributor. Ranked 6 this year (247). Maybe that’s the hope Buckeyes are waiting for – the recent recruiting bumper crop to kick in?
I think it is extremely unlikely that Holtmann would be fired. They just signed him to an extension, and it would be one thing if there were expectations for this season, but they have six freshmen and three transfers, and returned one starter from last season. Taking a job somewhere else is always a possibility, Tubby Smith style, but I haven't heard any real info about that.As is becoming blatantly obvious, the extension last year was one of Gene Smith's biggest screwups. Why extend a guy who has never accomplished anything worth noting?
He should have been canned after last season but keeping him to see how this season played out wasn't totally insane. When the Buckeyes lost to Minnesota, Gene Smith should have immediately called a press conference and relieved him of his duties in order to give Diebler a sink-or-swim opportunity to finish out the season.Now that would've been an insane move.
Isn't the big complaint about Holtmann that he doesn't develop his players??? Or do much with the more talented ones?I'm not sure who is making that complaint. EJ Liddell developed into an NBA pick. Duane Washington also has been flitting around the NBA as well. Recruiting has been good, development has been good. My general complaint is the the roster is usually a bit rough from an athletic standpoint and they can be uninspired on defense. For better or worse, he has had a hard time getting a veteran team together. The better teams in basketball are usually a solid group of veterans with perhaps some younger talented guys or transfers to plug in holes. Getting that kind of team has been weirdly challenging for OSU, especially since Holtmann said that's what he wants.
First off, from my perspective I don't care exactly what the problem is. The fact is that we are in year 6 and the HC is responsible recruiting, development, and x's and o's. There clearly IS a problem.I don't know about that. Not sure what you are seeing to say they have a "considerable" amount of talent. Sensabaugh looks like an NBA guy, and he is also a very flawed player right now because he doesn't pass or play defense. Other than that, just a bunch of guys. My biggest disappointment is Justice Sueing can't shoot straight.
That said, IMHO right now it is an x's and o's problem. The Buckeyes, have a considerable amount of talent but right now, as I see it, they are five talented guys who coincidentally wore matching outfits and they are consistently losing to TEAMS made up of less, and sometimes considerably less talented individual players. As I said upthread, the whole is less than the sum of the parts.
I don't know about that. Not sure what you are seeing to say they have a "considerable" amount of talent. Sensabaugh looks like an NBA guy, and he is also a very flawed player right now because he doesn't pass or play defense. Other than that, just a bunch of guys. My biggest disappointment is Justice Sueing can't shoot straight.First, as I said above, I really don't care exactly what the problem is. Our program has failed either at talent identification, recruitment, development, or coaching and the HC is ultimately responsible for all of those things so arguing about which ones he has failed at most/least severely is somewhat akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. No matter how the deck chairs are arranged the ship is still sinking. Same here, regardless of which aspect of the job he has failed most miserably at, the team still sucks, the program is still sinking, and the best way to get out of a hole is to stop digging. Gene Smith needs to stop the digging by making a change.
First, as I said above, I really don't care exactly what the problem is. Our program has failed either at talent identification, recruitment, development, or coaching and the HC is ultimately responsible for all of those things so arguing about which ones he has failed at most/least severely is somewhat akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic. No matter how the deck chairs are arranged the ship is still sinking. Same here, regardless of which aspect of the job he has failed most miserably at, the team still sucks, the program is still sinking, and the best way to get out of a hole is to stop digging. Gene Smith needs to stop the digging by making a change.Yeah I can't get behind that. This team was a 2 seed two years ago. The recruiting is as good as it has been in a decade. As far as talent, it's an interesting question. I'd say Purdue, Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa are clearly more talented than OSU right now. Of the remainder, OSU matches up ok with talent but is far, far behind in experience. I'd say they are clearly more talented than Nebraska and Minny. There is no good argument that they are blowing some great collection of talent this year. That's crazy.
That said, I think that tOSU is easily in the top half of the B1G in talent yet they are in the bottom fifth in performance which leads me to my assertion that the whole is less than the sum of the parts.
Yeah I can't get behind that. This team was a 2 seed two years ago.That resulted in one of the 11 most embarrassing losses in the history of the NCAA Tournament*.
The recruiting is as good as it has been in a decade.Wake me up when we have something to show for it. Oh, you might want to wake up the rest of the fanbase too because our arena was roughly half filled for the Wisconsin loss. That, more than anything will seal Holtmann's fate. Gene Smith can't sell tickets because the program has stagnated.
As far as talent, it's an interesting question. I'd say Purdue, Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa are clearly more talented than OSU right now. Of the remainder, OSU matches up ok with talent but is far, far behind in experience. I'd say they are clearly more talented than Nebraska and Minny. There is no good argument that they are blowing some great collection of talent this year. That's crazy.I have only a slightly different view here, but like I said, I don't care. It is a pick-your-poison situation, either:
Wake me up when we have something to show for it. Oh, you might want to wake up the rest of the fanbase too because our arena was roughly half filled for the Wisconsin loss. That, more than anything will seal Holtmann's fate. Gene Smith can't sell tickets because the program has stagnated.That's been an issue forever, because OSU has a crappy arena and lukewarm fan support.
That's been an issue forever, because OSU has a crappy arena and lukewarm fan support.I'm not thrilled with the design of Value City Arena but I think the set-up there has improved.
Anyway, sometimes programs have crappy seasons. I'm simply pointing out that you keep saying the program is sinking or whatever and I don't see much evidence of that. They are definitely having a crappy year, but when the team is mostly freshmen and transfers it is disappointing but not shocking.Rebuilding years are understandable but I don't agree that we are in one:
If this is good enough, why did we fire Matta? He had earned the benefit of the doubt!That one is easy. The teams had dropped off, but so did everything else. The recruiting was bad. There was constant upheaval on the rosters. I loved Matta, but by the end the program was in rough shape and there was little reason to think things would improve. In fact, it was Kyle Young picking Butler and Chris Holtmann over the Buckeyes that got Gene convinced to try and change things up.
I think y’all have said all the things on the matter.Oh we can repeat this for decades.
The team sucks.As losses pile up it undermines your argument that this is merely a bad year.
Medina:
(https://i.imgur.com/iSkraZm.png)
One game later and the team continues to suck.
Medina:
(https://i.imgur.com/nV9zZM7.png)
As losses pile up it undermines your argument that this is merely a bad year
Uh, isn't that the definition of a bad year?Until a certain point, yes. Once you get beyond that it is no longer merely a bad year which even good coaches sometimes have. At a certain point it becomes a historically awful year.
Historically awful years only ocurr in transitional yearsA transition year, usually associated with lots of roster turnover and playing less about results on the court this year in the hopes of future success.
I wonder if there’s an OSU booster willing to spring for it.OSU boosters currently being torn between funding the athletic department and funding 17 year old defensive ends.
We’ll have a nice spot of Medina getting what he wants and Sam either being right or getting better basketball.
"However, the 20-win threshold, once a sacred barometer of how good a coach is at their job, has been meaningless for a while. Expanded schedules and a Challenger Deep list of cupcakes means that it's easier than ever for teams to hit that 20-win mark."This doesn't totally seem true?
Is Wes Miller a good coach? Maybe Fickell can bring him to Madison?Was very good at UNC Greensboro, isn’t trending toward making the tournament at Cincinnati for a second year in a row.
This doesn't totally seem true?Yeah, agree here. Also, the transfer portal would seem to push all the talent towards the mean. Sort of like how the Big Ten has ten teams of basically the same quality.
You have more games, but also more conference games. If anything, it feels like there are fewer cupcakes than their used to be, at least as a UW fan. Between the holiday tournament, Big Ten-ACC, a rivalry game, UW had like five cupcakes scheduled, six if you want to include Stanford.
Back in 2007 and 2008, they were at like 7-8.
Now I get it with Holtmann to a degree. 20-21 wins with weird mid-season swoons and no pizazz moments will bore and irk some folks. But this thesis is not very correct. At worst, it's a push, maybe harder to get to 20 as a P5 team.
This doesn't totally seem true?Agreed. MSU only scheduled 4 mid-majors this year (Northern Arizona, Brown, Oakland, Buffalo)
You have more games, but also more conference games. If anything, it feels like there are fewer cupcakes than their used to be, at least as a UW fan. Between the holiday tournament, Big Ten-ACC, a rivalry game, UW had like five cupcakes scheduled, six if you want to include Stanford.
Back in 2007 and 2008, they were at like 7-8.
Now I get it with Holtmann to a degree. 20-21 wins with weird mid-season swoons and no pizazz moments will bore and irk some folks. But this thesis is not very correct. At worst, it's a push, maybe harder to get to 20 as a P5 team.
Agreed. MSU only scheduled 4 mid-majors this year (Northern Arizona, Brown, Oakland, Buffalo)I was gonna try to give them credit for BYU. But that BYU was not now BYU.
We played a 5th, but only because Portland upset Villanova, so we wound up playing them, not Villanova, in the 5th place game in our holiday tournament.
MSU always gets credit for playing a tough schedule, but in the last year of the 16 game Big Ten schedule (2007), MSU still had 12 mid-majors scheduled. They went into Big Ten play 13-2, and unranked.
I was gonna try to give them credit for BYU. But that BYU was not now BYU.That BYU team actually wound up going 25-9 overall, 13-3 to win the MWC title, and finishing #24 in the polls. So it actually wound up being a decent win, but wasn't really scheduled as much. They were coming off a 1st round NIT exit, and had gong 9-21 the year before that. That 2007 BYU team was the start of a run of 8 NCAA tourneys in 9 years, including a Sweet 16, but I'm not going to credit them for scheduling that one.
UW was at 10 Mid-Majors that year, though two were very good and probably projected that way.
In short, there's just less bodybag games than their once were.
That BYU team actually wound up going 25-9 overall, 13-3 to win the MWC title, and finishing #24 in the polls. So it actually wound up being a decent win, but wasn't really scheduled as much. They were coming off a 1st round NIT exit, and had gong 9-21 the year before that. That 2007 BYU team was the start of a run of 8 NCAA tourneys in 9 years, including a Sweet 16, but I'm not going to credit them for scheduling that one.Yeah, my rule of thumb for gaging mid-major quality is the year before/brand. Like the recent vintage of BYU, you probably get credit for unless they’re coming off a mediocre year. But even a good Winthrop is a little tricky.
But even if you do, the point largely stands. The games most teams have dropped in going from 16 to 20, have been the bodybag games.
I also think the number of quality holiday tournaments has expanded. Back then, there was Maui, and I guess the Preseason NIT was still decent, but that was about it. IIRC, Alaska had already fallen off, and Atlantis, Vegas, Orlando and the Nike tournaments didn't exist yet
Yeah, agree here. Also, the transfer portal would seem to push all the talent towards the mean. Sort of like how the Big Ten has ten teams of basically the same quality.
Was noticing this as well the other day - the outsized midsections of certain conferences - but I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of the college basketball landscape to assess whether this is something new or has been happening for a while. Or why this might be happening if this is indeed a trend.I think it is too early to say if it is a trend or not but it sure is unusual. Right now we have:
@MaximumSam (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1572) , at what point will you acknowledge that this is much worse than the type of rebuilding/transitional years that all programs occasionally face?I mean, the team blows. That said, it's not even the worst OSU team in the last 10 years by the FancyStats. Though they can get there if they keep getting drilled. Like I've said, OSU fans have some magical thinking about how good a basketball program OSU has. We could be Nebraska pretty easily, where we have seasons like this and get excited about the future. Which isn't to say you roll with Holtmann until the end of time. The consistency that was his top hallmark certainly wasn't there this year.
The MSU game saw tOSU's lowest scoring output in 27 years.
The current stretch is the worst in a quarter century.
This is literally the worst Ohio State basketball team in a generation.
That *MIGHT* be acceptable if the coach had accumulated some goodwill and earned the benefit of the doubt. He has none.
I can't imagine a worse job than being the guy who follows Izzo. He took a mid level Big Ten job, and made it so that if Michigan or Ohio State has a lower floor than them, their coach gets put on the hot seat. This is a program that won a national title with arguably the greatest college player of all time, and then proceeded to parlay that into missing the tournament 8 times in the next 10 years. They actually got a little bit better in the early 90s, when Izzo became the associate head coach. He has set a floor has given Michigan and Ohio State fans unrealistic expectations, and I can only imagine the unrealistic expectations of the Michigan State fans going forwardIt's a tough hire, too - Duke and NC basically with program guys. Seems doubtful either will last five years.
Why is it unrealistic for two of the largest athletic programs in the country to be good at basketball? Because they are football schools?Buckeyes made the tourney five straight times, counting the mystical COVID year. They've been good at basketball. Medina says be great or GTFO, and I'm not as sure that's as realistic as he does. Seems a lot easier to fall into a pit of despair and irrelevance.
We're having this debate when freaking Bama of all schools is ranked number one?
Why is it unrealistic for two of the largest athletic programs in the country to be good at basketball? Because they are football schools?Absolutely can be good at basketball, as they generally have been. But basketball is also way more volatile year to year, and it's hard to have a high floor
We're having this debate when freaking Bama of all schools is ranked number one?
It's a tough hire, too - Duke and NC basically with program guys. Seems doubtful either will last five years.Tough comparison. North Carolina has had multiple great coaches. Duke has had multiple very good coaches, but their one great coach elevated the program well above what MSU has.
Tough comparison. North Carolina has had multiple great coaches. Duke has had multiple very good coaches, but their one great coach elevated the program well above what MSU has.Oh I agree, just saying the general idea of trying to hire someone to replace a legend usually means settling for some program guy that the old coach likes. Reinventing the wheel is not attractive, and program guys aren't attractive, and you have to pick one.
Id put MSU in the Louisville tier, and we see how their last two hires have gone.
I mean, the team blows. That said, it's not even the worst OSU team in the last 10 years by the FancyStats. Though they can get there if they keep getting drilled. Like I've said, OSU fans have some magical thinking about how good a basketball program OSU has. We could be Nebraska pretty easily, where we have seasons like this and get excited about the future. Which isn't to say you roll with Holtmann until the end of time. The consistency that was his top hallmark certainly wasn't there this year.I'm just not buying the fancy stats. This team sucks a lot worse than those suggest. I think part of it is a timing thing. This team was very good up through NYD. Even in the five game losing streak they were still statistically good but ever since the Iowa win, they are atrocious.
You keep making comparisons like the Nebraska comparison above and I keep giving you the facts. You seem to ignore those. Ohio State's history in BB is VASTLY superior to Nebraska's. You call it "magical thinking" but you are flay wrong here.
I'm not ignoring anything. Nebraska is top ten college football program historically. Ask them how switching coaches over and over has worked out. I'm just pointing out there are risks and costs to blowing up the program, and it go into a spiral that we don't get out of for a long, long time. Your response is that you don't care. Well, I do.Wait, are you comparing our BB program to UNL's BB program or to UNL's FB program?
I'm sorry @MaximumSam (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1572) but making ridiculous statements that treat the tOSU program as nothing more than the Nebraska program doesn't contribute to a reasonable and rational discussion, it honestly was far to stupid of a comment to deserve a serious response but you set me up so I wanted to knock that out of the park with authority.Reading, what is it? I am saying that blowing up the program because they don't meet the highest standards is a good way to become irrelevant. As happened with the Nebraska FOOTBALL program. If you want to the OSU basketball program to turn into the Nebraska BASKETBALL program, then blow it up every year they don't do something they are supposed to do.
If you can avoid stupid comments like that we can have a reasonable conversation.
Reading, what is it? I am saying that blowing up the program because they don't meet the highest standards is a good way to become irrelevant. As happened with the Nebraska FOOTBALL program. If you want to the OSU basketball program to turn into the Nebraska BASKETBALL program, then blow it up every year they don't do something they are supposed to do.Sorry I misunderstood your earlier comment. You didn't say anything about football so it looked like you were saying that the Ohio State and Nebraska BB programs were equivalent which they obviously aren't.
I am saying that blowing up the program because they don't meet the highest standards is a good way to become irrelevant.Your concern about Ohio State BB becoming irrelevant is awfully tardy. They haven't won a league title or been to a S16 in over a decade. There is no need to fear them "becoming" irrelevant because they already are.
I gotta quit reading this thread
It's painful
Reading through everything:Exactly
-Ohio State basketball is amidst a historically awful season, losing 13 of their last 14 games.
-Is it bad enough to blow up and start over?
-Yes, but Holtmann's unwisely granted extension through 2027 makes him more difficult to fire.
-And with recruiting recently picking up (#8 class last year, #6 incoming) maybe there's hope? (But would current freshman pieces like Sensabaugh and Thornton even stick around?)
-Except Holtmann has underwhelmed with plenty going for Ohio State before. In fact, in year 6 now, Holtmann has had more than enough time, talent, and resources to prove himself better than Ohio State losing 13 of their last 14 games.
I’m trying to think of what record is just a “you gotta fire him unless the money just ain’t there.”This is probably the key issue at this point.
3-17 in conference feels like that spot. Maybe 5-15?
I’m trying to think of what record is just a “you gotta fire him unless the money just ain’t there.”Seems like a pretty arbitrary number. "Ah, the team sucks, but you won 6 games instead of 4, so all is well." By pretty similar logic you could justify kicking all the players off the team, too. That also makes no sense, but the way we talk about coaches and players isn't usually steeped in logic.
3-17 in conference feels like that spot. Maybe 5-15?
Hey speaking of Arizona when is ASU putting Hurley out to pasture?
Reading through everything:
-Ohio State basketball is amidst a historically awful season, losing 13 of their last 14 games.
-Is it bad enough to blow up and start over?
-Yes, but Holtmann's unwisely granted extension through 2027 makes him more difficult to fire.
-And with recruiting recently picking up (#8 class last year, #6 incoming) maybe there's hope? (But would current freshman pieces like Sensabaugh and Thornton even stick around?)
-Except Holtmann has underwhelmed with plenty going for Ohio State before. In fact, in year 6 now, Holtmann has had more than enough time, talent, and resources to prove himself better than Ohio State losing 13 of their last 14 games.
Key quote from the article I linked above:Lol. Show you care by not supporting the team. Peak Columbus
"Show the fans that you have left, and judging by the empty seats in the Schott it’s not many, that losing like this isn’t acceptable in Columbus."
This is the point that either has already been reached or is about to be reached. Keeping Holtmann after this disaster with no offsetting accomplishments would be sending a message that the Ohio State Athletic Department simply doesn't care about BB.
Key quote from the article I linked above:Sounds like Wisconsin hockey - a 6-time national championship program - none since 2006 - that has been left for dead.
"Show the fans that you have left, and judging by the empty seats in the Schott it’s not many, that losing like this isn’t acceptable in Columbus."
This is the point that either has already been reached or is about to be reached. Keeping Holtmann after this disaster with no offsetting accomplishments would be sending a message that the Ohio State Athletic Department simply doesn't care about BB.
Lol. Show you care by not supporting the team. Peak ColumbusPrices have been climbing for too many yrs. Out distancing either the averages fans ability or desire to keep paying the ramsome
Prices have been climbing for too many yrs. Out distancing either the averages fans ability or desire to keep paying the ramsomeOh don't get me wrong. I have no problem with anyone who doesn't want to pay to watch bad basketball, or even good basketball. OSU built the Schott not to provide a great basketball experience, but to sell lots of tickets to Monster Truck Rally's and whatever else they do there. That should tell you where basketball ranks in the athletic department's list of priorities.
Lol. Show you care by not supporting the team. Peak ColumbusNo one is talking about not supporting the team.
Seems like a pretty arbitrary number. "Ah, the team sucks, but you won 6 games instead of 4, so all is well." By pretty similar logic you could justify kicking all the players off the team, too. That also makes no sense, but the way we talk about coaches and players isn't usually steeped in logic.Yeah. I don’t think there’s a real science to it.
Hey speaking of Arizona when is ASU putting Hurley out to pasture?
Yeah. I don’t think there’s a real science to it.I think that what you called "vibe around the program" can be pretty definitively measured by simply looking at attendance. The arena was >2/3 full for the Northwestern game and less than 4/5 full for the MSU game despite Spartan fans contributing significantly.
I’m guessing bottoming out puts you close to being fired. I am guessing that avoiding bottoming out would help. In the end, vibe around the program and willingness of someone to pay will tell the tale.
I think that what you called "vibe around the program" can be pretty definitively measured by simply looking at attendance. The arena was >2/3 full for the Northwestern game and less than 4/5 full for the MSU game despite Spartan fans contributing significantly.I mean inside the program.
At the end of the day money talks. Ohio State didn't spend millions of dollars on a 20k seat arena for the purpose of playing crappy BB in front of 13k fans.
WVU is entering into a potentially uncomfortable situation with Bob Huggins. If WVU misses the tournament this season (right now squarely on the bubble) then that will make 3 out of the last 5 seasons it has missed the NCAAs (I give him the 2020 season because we were comfortably in had the tournament been played).I can't believe he wants to coach much longer. I wonder if he would be amenable to a victory lap season at his alma mater, with the agreement he will step down at the end. I also think you could do a couple more years if you bring in a coach in waiting. Not sure who that is. The best WVU alum in coaching is killing it with the Celtics right now. So you aren't getting him
Since 2019, WVU has finished dead last in the conference twice and is 33-53 in Big 12 games in that time span. He’s a HOF, loves the state and university, and has had a lot of success during his time here.
The way his contract is currently structured is he is slated to coach through next season and then take on an emeritus type role with the school. The deadline to extend his coaching career here is May 1 this year. I’m of the opinion the contract should stand as currently constructed, give Huggs a nice send off, and prepare for a basketball program without him at the helm. The fanbase is probably split on that though. Many people think as long as Huggs wants to coach WVU should allow him to.
I love him for what he’s done here but this isn’t Coach K leaving Duke or Wooden leaving UCLA. He’s been a really good coach here. He hasn’t been a great coach.
It will be interesting to see how our brand new AD handles it.
The Big 12 is a meat grinder this year. WVU currently at 22nd on the FancyStats despite being 16-12. Also, is WVU basketball an attractive job? That travel schedule is a bitch. I guess they could start playing Cincinnati six times a year.Idk. I would say it’s a middle of the road job. Not a blue blood school, the terrible travel schedule, and WV isn’t a bucket list destination for most people (the rumor was Beilein’s wife couldn’t wait to get out of here). OTOH, Beilein and Huggs have shown you can win pretty consistently here.
I really like Calhoun. But I can't imagine any top end power five school other than Ohio State hiring him, so I don't think you have to make a change to get him. I think you can give Holtzman another year, and still get him next year. If it's not working out. That'll give you another year to evaluate him, whether it's another year of building at Youngstown State, or if he gets a mid major job at an MAC or MVC schoolHe’s a Huggs protege. His name pops up a lot when people start mentioning possible replacements for him.
I don't think Gene Smith has any intention of firing Holtmann this season absent him mooning the crowd. But say it does happen, or more likely, he leaves for another job.LoL. Did you type this in jest? You can't be serious. Unfortunately, I've long since given up hope that Notre Dame or any other school would solve this problem for us.
Serious question:Looking for opinions from other Ohio State guys such as @MaximumSam (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1572) and myself but really, I'm more interested in more detached, dispassionate, and rational takes from neutral observers. What say you: @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) @Kris60 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=79) @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) @boilerbanger (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=56)
Does anyone other than @MaximumSam (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1572) think that Holtmann should be retained?
Looking for opinions from other Ohio State guys such as @MaximumSam (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1572) and myself but really, I'm more interested in more detached, dispassionate, and rational takes from neutral observers. What say you: @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) @Kris60 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=79) @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) @boilerbanger (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=56)I’m flat in the middle. If they fired him, I wouldn’t cry foul. You can’t bomb out like that in the indignant about your job status.
@bayareabadger (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1571)
@betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19)
Etc?
I'm not following close enough to know if this is a "must fire" situation, but it also doesn't appear to be a situation that I'd disagree with firing him.In retrospect, it is a little wild that Painter survived missing the tournament twice in a row. Purdue this is strictly a much more successful program than Wisconsin, and I feel like missing twice would get you let go.
Six years in. No real accomplishments. Baseline performance below the level OSU has historically been able to reach. Team trending down rather than up, despite having talent. His best (first) season's results with a core Matta built.
People were calling for Painter to be canned after two bad seasons, but Painter had actually accomplished something prior to that, by recruiting and winning with the Baby Boilers and making the S16 twice. If Painter had Holtmann's resume when he had his two bad seasons, I would have said he was a failed experiment and canned him.
If I'm the OSU AD, I'm asking "what do I see in Chris Holtmann that makes me think he can do any better than what he's shown in his first 6 years?" And if I don't have a good answer, I find someone else.
I don't think it has reached a point where you have to fire him.Losing out seems more likely than not at this point. If they do, they'll finish this year at 3-17/11-21, losers of 13 straight and 18 of 19.
Six years in. No real accomplishments. Baseline performance below the level OSU has historically been able to reach. Team trending down rather than up, despite having talent. His best (first) season's results with a core Matta built.This, to me is the bigger issue. The current season is awful by any standard but if Holtmann had any real accomplishments to offset it, it wouldn't be so bad.
In retrospect, it is a little wild that Painter survived missing the tournament twice in a row. Purdue this is strictly a much more successful program than Wisconsin, and I feel like missing twice would get you let go.
John Beilein was trending towards being fired in 2011. He went 10-22 in Year 1, then went 20-13 and made the tourney in Year 2, but regressed to 15-17 in Year 3. In Year 4, they were on a 6 game losing streak, sitting at 1-6 in Big Ten play, looking to go 3 of 4 years not even being NIT eligible, with a road game at Michigan State up next, a building where they hadn't won in 14 years. They pulled out the win, kicked off a 9-3 finish to get back in the tournament, and then 2 years later played for a national title.The difference between Painter in 2013/14 and Beilein in 2011 and 2016 is that those guys actually had real accomplishments prior to those lulls.
I then remember in 2016, MichiFan was saying it was time for Beilein to retire. They were bad in 2015, and 2016 was trending in the wrong direction. They wound up upsetting #1 seed Indiana in the BTT quarterfinals, and that was enough for them to sneak into the First 4. He brought in Yaklich to overhaul the defense, and once again, 2 years later they were in a national title game.
In retrospect, it is a little wild that Painter survived missing the tournament twice in a row. Purdue this is strictly a much more successful program than Wisconsin, and I feel like missing twice would get you let go.Painter had accomplishments behind him. The team was struggling before he took over from Keady. Keady had missed the NCAAT in 4 of his final 5 seasons. It was, legitimately, a rebuild.
LoL. Did you type this in jest? You can't be serious. Unfortunately, I've long since given up hope that Notre Dame or any other school would solve this problem for us.I wouldn't think either is likely, but I think Gene firing him is almost certainly not going to happen. Whether another school makes a run at him is a different question. There are other decent jobs likely to come open - Georgetown comes to mind. While I tease Buckeye fans for acting like making the tourney is a no big deal, there are lots of programs out there that are tourney starved. Notre Dame will miss it this year and has one appearance in six years. They'd look at Holtmann's track record as a godsend. St. John's could possibly come open, they have one appearance in 8 years.
Painter had accomplishments behind him. The team was struggling before he took over from Keady. Keady had missed the NCAAT in 4 of his final 5 seasons. It was, legitimately, a rebuild.This is all true, but in our modern era, going from 26 to 22 to 16 to 15 wins, with a drop in finish of 2nd, 6th, 7th 12th, that’ll end a lot of tenures. And the top of that last roster only had a couple young talents who ended up mattering, with a good-not-great class coming in.
Painter had a bad first year, but then led the team to six straight tournaments, including two S16s (where they lost to the 1 seed, certainly no embarrassment). In that 6 year stretch he took 1 league title and finished 2nd 3 other times. Annual win totals were in the mid-20s for most of that stretch, with one year getting to 29 wins (including BTT/NCAAT of course). He showed he could recruit as well.
While there was grumbling that he was a one-hit wonder with the Baby Boilers, at least he actually DID something with those teams [and a lot of people think he'd have achieved more if Hummel hadn't had ACL tears in consecutive seasons, which sorta gave him an extra pass]. It's also different from Holtmann in that Painter was specifically brought in a bit young and green; he'd only been a HC for one season at SIU and it could be argued that he was merely coaching Bruce Weber's team at that point.
So while I think Purdue has higher expectations for basketball than Wisconsin or OSU, Painter had actually accomplished a lot more to take a program that had been in the doldrums and actually done something with it before those two seasons. That, coupled with the fact that he was a Boilermaker through and through, gave him a little extra goodwill.
I suspect there were some hard discussions and that Painter probably told the the AD "here's where I think I made the mistakes that got us here, and here's my plan for how to get out of this", and the AD accepted it and trusted him.
Apparently Painter was EXTREMELY close to taking the Missouri job in 2014, per CBS, because he was frustrated with the frustrationThat was much earlier. 2011 - https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/sports/college/basketball/2011/03/30/painter-spurns-missouri/21417626007/
give him one more chance with a bunch of talented kids.It will be a final chance.
It will be a final chance.It should be interesting. OSU will likely have around 10 freshmen and sophomores on the team next year.
Then there is a chance it will be another "meh" season of not competing for the B1G Title, getting an NCAA bid, and getting bounced the first weekend. Then we'll be back where we were at the end of 2022 and Ohio State Basketball will remain irrelevant and our title drought will grow and nothing will change.
I’m trying to think of what record is just a “you gotta fire him unless the money just ain’t there.”With the home loss to Penn State on the books, 3-17 is now more likely than not.
3-17 in conference feels like that spot. Maybe 5-15?
Ohio State's mathematical best-case-scenario is 6-14.I was looking down the rabbit hole. If you count 2020, Holtmann already has as many or more NCAA appearances as a Buckeye coach than anyone outside of Matta.
Ohio State seasons with six or fewer league wins since Fred Taylor's tenure ended at the end of the 1975/76 season:
- 6-10 in 2004, O'Brien's last year
- 1-15 in 1998, O'Brien's first year
- 5-13 in 1997, Ayers' last year
- 3-15 in 1996, Ayers' second-to-last year
- 2-16 in 1995, Ayers' third-to-last year
- 6-12 in 1994, Ayers' fourth-to-last year
- 6-12 in 1989, Williams' last year
- 6-12 in 1977, Eldon Miller's first season
Matta's worst season was 7-11 and he was let go after that season. Keep in mind that this was a guy who won five league titles and went to five S16's, two F4's, and a NCG. Holtmann, of course, has done none of those things.
In retrospect Ayers shouldn't have been retained as long as he was but the school's reluctance to fire him is understandable considering that he won two league titles, made two S16's, and an E8*. Holtmann, of course, has done none of those things.
If Smith doesn't terminate Ohio State's relationship with coach Holtmann after this catastrophe he will be accepting a level of futility that has been unacceptable at Ohio State at least for the roughly 50 years since Fred Taylor left.
*Ayers' E8 would have been a F4 if not for a loss to a team cough-Michigan-cough with a higher payroll than most NBA teams that season.
I was looking down the rabbit hole. If you count 2020, Holtmann already has as many or more NCAA appearances as a Buckeye coach than anyone outside of Matta.^^^Thing I only care about in that it is a means to an ends^^^
^^^Thing I only care about in that it is a means to an ends^^^Things I care about:
Things I care about:
- How many League Titles has he won?
- How many league titles has he seriously contended for (not counting with his predecessor's recruits in his first year)?
- How many NC Games has he been to?
- How many F4's?
- How many E8's?
- How many S16's has he been to?
- How many S16's has he been close to?
Ohio State seasons with six or fewer league wins since Fred Taylor's tenure ended at the end of the 1975/76 season:Fred Taylor coached Ohio State Basketball from the 1958/59 season through the 1975/76 season. He had:
- 6-10 in 2004, O'Brien's last year
- 1-15 in 1998, O'Brien's first year
- 5-13 in 1997, Ayers' last year
- 3-15 in 1996, Ayers' second-to-last year
- 2-16 in 1995, Ayers' third-to-last year
- 6-12 in 1994, Ayers' fourth-to-last year
- 6-12 in 1989, Williams' last year
- 6-12 in 1977, Eldon Miller's first season
Matta's worst season was 7-11 and he was let go after that season. Keep in mind that this was a guy who won five league titles and went to five S16's, two F4's, and a NCG. Holtmann, of course, has done none of those things.
It should be interesting. OSU will likely have around 10 freshmen and sophomores on the team next year.
My 2 cents. I would call up James family. Hey Bronny are you coming to OSU if we keep Holtman? If not, Lebron what coach would bring your son to our campus?
Seriously that's how I would handle it. Lebron is the biggest brand in Basketball having his son here means a lot of great things for OSU, even past the 1 or 2 years the kid plays here. If Holtman's not the guy to get him, then I'm ok moving on.
LeBron Sr would have saved Jim O'Brien's job, had the NBA's "one and done" rule been implemented two years earlier.
edit to quote TI's Bronny point:
Completely agree with the above if Ohio State's admin is willing to simplify Holtmann's job security by whether Bronny signs or not. Ohio State is in his Top 3. Bronny in a Buckeyes jersey legitimizes Ohio State as college basketball's biggest ticket next season. Plus, with the young talent already expected to be in Columbus, it could be the turn around season Holtmann needs.
coach's job saverBronny is the 33rd ranked player on 247 and a combo guard. OSU already has a freshman coming in who is the the 36th ranked player at the same position. Plus they (hopefully) return their backcourt, who are freshmen this year. Yet another freshman guard doesn't really move the needle except to have Lebron hanging around, which is cool but not, like, helpful.
not the entire program
LeBron Sr would have saved Jim O'Brien's jobLebron Sr was one of the best five basketball players in the history of man. Bronny is...not.
yes, but one season by the greatest might save a coach's job, for a few seasons, but wouldn't save a program in declineWait are we arguing or agreeing
bothBronny is Lebron's kid
It's just better that way
Brutus said, "coach's job"
you said "program"
Brutus said, "Sr"
you said, "Bronny"
I'm not sure if those are the same person
Bronny seems like a kid who could come in and be a positive player as a freshman - he has the reputation of a good passer and tries hard on defense. As some sort of program saver? No way in hell.
I think LeBron's impact at OSU will be a lot bigger than anything on the court. NIL deals, excitement about the program, fans in the arena, News, ESPN coverage, etc. Having LeBron here will make OSU basketball exciting. I don't know (because I haven't paid attention) if he is good enough to have an impact on the court, but I think he and his dad will have a tremendously good impact around the court. I mean it's not he is the next big thing to grace campus, but it's his father legitimacy is in the conversation of greatest basketball player ever. I also think if Lebron Senior has actual ties with OSU I think his involvement will also increase. (Which I also think is good.)I think where ever he goes will be a complete shit show with the circus that will come to town, I would not want that distraction of his father in my program.
I think where ever he goes will be a complete shit show with the circus that will come to town, I would not want that distraction of his father in my program.My thoughts exactly.
My thoughts exactly.I think it would be a bit different just because James Sr. has a job. In theory, you can only duck away from an NBA schedule only so much.
It will be worse than the Ball thing.
Much worse. Toxic. Cancerous.
A few kind of interesting narratives based on the cancellation of the 2020 tournament as well.I don’t think that was Gard’s best season. It’s weird because his four best teams were all some degree of close, but all had weird flaws.
Probably Turgeon and Gards best teams, didn't get a chance to play it out. Indiana was likely in the tourney. Would that have bought Archie another year? For the talk of Painters lull earlier in the decade, it then gets forgotten that Purdue was nowhere near the tourney in 2020.
Maybe not Gard's best, but I think playing the best going into the tourney.Yeah. It was a great ride after the first half of that season.
In retrospect, having Howard Moore's car accident, not being able to start integrate Potter until right before Big Ten play, Alando Tucker manipulating things behind the scenes, and the Kobe King issue, it's actually fairly impressive that they were able to tread water.
That said, they were 13-10 overall and 6-6 in the Big Ten following a blowout loss in Minneapolis on February 5. They didn't lose again.
Granted, their schedule certainly lightened up a TON too, but I think given all of those other factors, I think you can say the way that team ended the season was more indicative of their ability.
A few kind of interesting narratives based on the cancellation of the 2020 tournament as well.Purdue was on the edge of the bubble, though. They were 9-11 in conference that year, and above .500 overall. I recall thinking (and arguing here) at the time "I think 2 wins in the BTT might get them onto the right side of the bubble". I don't think it would have taken them winning the whole think to get the auto bid.
Probably Turgeon and Gards best teams, didn't get a chance to play it out. Indiana was likely in the tourney. Would that have bought Archie another year? For the talk of Painters lull earlier in the decade, it then gets forgotten that Purdue was nowhere near the tourney in 2020.
16-15 overall, tied for 10th in the Big TenYeah, they certainly had work to do. The real question is how much. I think 2 wins might have done it.
FWIW, this is the what the ESPN Bubble Watch said going into the BTT
Looking at Purdue's schedule a week ago, most observers would have predicted that the Boilermakers would go 1-1 in games at Iowa and at home against Rutgers. That's exactly what occurred, it's just that the win came on the road against the Hawkeyes and the loss came at Mackey Arena to the Scarlet Knights. Anyway, 2-0 would have helped. Matt Painter's team will enter the Big Ten tournament with a 15-14 record, and history says that's not good enough. No team has earned an at-large bid with an overall win percentage under .533. Naturally, the committee may break new ground and give a bid to a team with a top-35 NET ranking and wins over Virginia, Michigan State and Wisconsin, to say nothing of the season sweep of Iowa. Still, asking the committee to do something unprecedented is risky.
Final B1G record 5-15.Now we wait to see if a big booster cares enough to divert from football player money.Worst season in 25 years and from a HC who, unlike Matta and O'Brien, has no notable accomplishments.
- 7-11 was Matta's worst, in his last season, 2017.
- 1-15 was Jim O'Brien's worst, in his first season, 1998. None of O'Brien's other teams were worse than 6-10.
Final B1G record 5-15.O'Brien notably accomplished getting a show cause penalty and a bunch of wins vacated.Worst season in 25 years and from a HC who, unlike Matta and O'Brien, has no notable accomplishments.
- 7-11 was Matta's worst, in his last season, 2017.
- 1-15 was Jim O'Brien's worst, in his first season, 1998. None of O'Brien's other teams were worse than 6-10.
https://twitter.com/HoopsWeiss/status/1635512114554044418?s=20I'm hopeful but not optimistic. This would really bail out Smith.
Gene Smith I almost compare to Darth Sidious in the Star Wars prequels lol. We see all of these sports underachieving and try and look at those coaches when in the shadows it's Gene Smith and his hirings and reckless money spending that has the athletic department in debt. He botched tattoo gate, the zach smith situation, he hired Holtmann (and extended him), hired Greg Beals (and kept him far too long), and let's not forget he had absolutely NOTHING TO DO with the hiring of Urban. That was the board of trustees and I remember the Urban introductory press conference that Gene Smith appeared to not even want to be there and people wanted him fired at the time. He brought on Ryan Day and did not interview ANYONE ELSE which is a red flag considering Ryan had no coaching experience at the time. Absolute fish out of water during that time.
All in the mean time he props up other sports that virtually nobody cares about and gives the OSU womens hockey team a new rink when the atheltic department is in debt LMAO. No wonder the OSU athletic department is a joke to most other fanbases.
Izzo's been to more Sweet 16s than any other Big Ten program except Indiana and Michigan.I think that's more impressive than MSU having the most tournament wins, because they have had their entire peak during the 64 team era. Some teams only had like 3 opportunities to win a game during a whole tournament. But the flip side is, as soon as the made the tournament, they were already in the final 8 or 16.