At least they got the road night game jitters out of the way in Iowa City. Michigan Stadium is never amped up like Kinnick is for a night game.Your guys have never played there to know. I admit this is the stereotype, but I think it's overstated. Night games in Ann Arbor are very different.
UW is also missing its best run blocking TE - out for the season. That is huge, especially for a game like this one. I think you'll see packages where UW will deploy 6, even 7, OL to try and run the ball this weekend. They did it against Iowa, which was the best defense they'd seen this season. That gets ramped up another notch with Michigan.That's probably not saying much. Iowa just gave up 31 to a one-dimensional Minnesota offense, and considering the injuries they sustained, they'll probably give up a similar amount to Indiana.
At least they got the road night game jitters out of the way in Iowa City. Michigan Stadium is never amped up like Kinnick is for a night game.
Michigan is #13 in Coaches Poll and Wisconsin is #10. In the AP Michigan is #12 and the Badgers are #15. I like the Coaches poll better despite Michigan being favored by 7.5 points at this time. Nor will I let the warm fuzzy from the pass blocking observed against Maryland make me very optimistic. Wisconsin will be the best defense Michigan has seen to date despite Badgerfan's opening epitaph for the Badger defense. The long range weather forecast for Saturday is for snow flurries and showers with an evening low of 38 the last time I looked. Perfect weather for the Badgers to try their classic clock eating ball control running game.Coaches/AP poll are pretty meaningless until the end of the year imo. S&P+ is probably more accurate.
It won't be until December that we know for sure which QB match-up was the best of the season, but this will be one of the good ones:wonder how much better Shea's #'s here would be if
(https://media.profootballfocus.com/2018/10/1806-All-Big-Ten-QBs.jpg)
(https://media.profootballfocus.com/2018/10/1806-All-Big-Ten-QBs-deep.jpg)
Fairly certain we already know, and it was in Happy Valley a week and a half agoThat’s how they calculate them?..
Anyone see Hornibrook in Iowa City, 2.5 weeks ago? What he did against a bitter rival in the toughest venue in the conference was amazing.Hey, I have been a Hornibrook fan for a long time. I am not saying they aren’t both excellent QBs, because stat number 1 is called winning.
wonder how much better Shea's #'s here would be ifYou mean to tell me that a player's stats would improve if you eliminate all of the plays that didn't quite go the way they intended?
A) Tarik Black was in the line-up. He's kind of a big deal. And Michigan's best receiver.
B) Sean McKeon didn't suck and cause one of those INT's.
C) Zach Gentry caught a football that he had BOTH hands on and caused an INT.
D) The refs didn't rob him of that beautiful 40 yard TD strike to DPJ on a holding call on the RB that was nearly as bad as the one they called on Higdon at NW.
Shea has been excellent.
Anyone see Hornibrook in Iowa City, 2.5 weeks ago? What he did against a bitter rival in the toughest venue in the conference was amazing.Iowa's defense isn't Michigan's defense.
Weird stats, I wonder how they calculate them?I think the overall grade is that they watch the tape and judge the player based on the design of the play and outcome of the play.
Haskins has more yards, more TDs, less interceptions, higher completion %, higher QBR, higher passing rating, and HIGHER YARDS PER COMPLETION.
He is ahead of even Bama’s qb in all these except yards per.
Patterson and Hornibrook are not even in the top 20 in those ratings.
While he does throw the ball on short passes, I completely disagree- respectfully- with that narrative. Seems like ever week Haskins gets a couple long TD passes into the end zone, like last week.
I went and read the PFF formula, and it is quite contrived. As you mention, is does take into account “ time the ball is in the air”. That penalizes a guy like Haskins when he throws a bullet downfield that’s in the air about 2/3 of the time it would take most QBs to get it there.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2v8jDTTRdHQ (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2v8jDTTRdHQ) Watch 47 second mark and again at 2:40 Mark..just to show a couple. Or better yet, take 5 minutes and watch the whole thing, and count how many of his TD throws were into the end zone bullets versu short passes the WR took to the house. Of the 6, 4 were thrown into the end zone and the other two were beauties that hit a guy in stride.
Not sure where this narrative is coming from, but Haskins has hit so many downfield TDs into the end zone this year I can’t even keep track of them any more.
Iowa's defense isn't Michigan's defense.No doubt, but it's a very good D line and it's a tough place to play at night. Posters here should know this.
It's called cherry picking.I don’t know about that, if I were running Wisconsin’s offense, I would want Hornibrook. And if I were running UM’s offense, I would take Patterson.
Nobody in their right mind would take any of these guys over Haskins.
Cool. An Ohio State thread. Just dandy.Not really. I am talking about Hornibrook and Patterson stats that were presented here.
How good is Hornibrook at throwing the ball on the run? I think we're going to see a lot of that from both teams Saturday night.The answer to that question is bad
Yes, we all know the Buckeye's QB is the best at everything and should win the Heisman for the next three years.
Hey, I have been a Hornibrook fan for a long time. I am not saying they aren’t both excellent QBs, because stat number 1 is called winning.It I recall correctly, they take every play, watch give it a semi-arbitrarily ranking (my brain says something like between 2 and negative 2 or something), compile them and then normalize them to 100.
I am just curious how those PFF advanced stats look like that when they seem to ignore every single measure that you would look at for a qb, including QBR both adjusted and unadjusted- which take specific situations into account.
How good is Hornibrook at throwing the ball on the run? I think we're going to see a lot of that from both teams Saturday night.jesus lord- you cant even engage in a question about stats around here without people flipping out.
Yes, we all know the Buckeye's QB is the best at everything and should win the Heisman for the next three years.
Cool. An Ohio State thread. Just dandy.I understand France has some killer wine and cuisine and what not. Or maybe it was Italy.
Sorry, didn't mean to rustle your leaves. I would say Haskins is a Heisman front runner at this point.its ok Temp- I don't care about him in that way. I truly didn't understand the stats from PFF that were posted, but I went and looked them up.
It's called cherry picking.How do you mean cherry picking?
Nobody in their right mind would take any of these guys over Haskins.
Not really. I am talking about Hornibrook and Patterson stats that were presented here.I don't eat Wheaties, but maybe I should. I've just noticed a lot of pooping in threads lately, but it's cool. Just don't be surprised it I call it out, as a little nudge, so to speak. Don't be so sensative. That's for Texans, like @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) .
If that’s not allowed in this football forum I will excuse myself.
Who pissed in your Wheaties lately?
I'll be rooting for Wisconsin, but it is difficult to see a path to victory. That offense isn't going to move at all against this D.Or an asteroid?
The answer to that question is badEh, I think more like "not good" is appropriate. He used to be bad but he has gotten better at it.
Or an asteroid?No, not an asteroid. Or even a meteorite.
That’s how they calculate them?..I mean the matchup of the two best quarterbacks
Or, are you saying they don’t take strength of opponent into consideration.
Fairly certain we already know, and it was in Happy Valley a week and a half agoWith McSorley's comp% hovering a centimeter abover 50%, I'm not at all sure any duel with him is guaranteed to have the conference's two best QBs. And so far Haskins, albeit great at it, has been permitted to feast with short throws and enormous YAC (see attached).
I don't eat Wheaties, but maybe I should. I've just noticed a lot of pooping in threads lately, but it's cool. Just don't be surprised it I call it out, as a little nudge, so to speak. Don't be so sensative. That's for Texans, like @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) .Haha. Just go the front page and look at all the current threads. Count how many are OSU? Zero- correct? Now count them for “other schools”. Lol it’s always that way
:29:
With McSorley's comp% hovering a centimeter abover 50%, I'm not at all sure any duel with him is guaranteed to have the conference's two best QBs. And so far Haskins, albeit great at it, has been permitted to feast with short throws and enormous YAC (see attached).
Even without PFF grading Hornibrook highest (and here I should admit that their rankings are not opponent-adjusted), I stick with the original claim. We can't know it until the end of the season.
It could easily end up as Haskins-McSorley, Hornibrook-Patterson, McSorley-Hornibrook, Patterson-Haskins, or even Hornibrook-Haskins in a CCG. They are all in striking range and up there and season is 50% (or less) over (depending on schedule).
(https://media.profootballfocus.com/2018/10/1806-All-Big-Ten-QBs-aDOT-768x432.jpg)
Simply a false narrative. Haskins has completed more passes of 20 yards into the end zone than either QBs
Hb were you trying to quote me on that long post about Haskins where it just ended up quoting you?In reading how they come to their rankings they include how long ball is in the air.
I think you are misunderstanding the adjusted deep pass rating. Has nothing to do with velocity. It’s just distance. They only look at passes that travel over 20 yards in the air from the LOS and rank that and that alone. They are strictly looking at the accuracy of balls thrown 20+ yards in the air from the LoS.
Hb have you charted every single one of Haskins throws?Yes he does. It he has a bunch that were well over 20 yards, and into the end zone
We’re not talking throws into the end zone. We’re talking throws of 20 yards or more in the air past the LOS. That’s it.
Haskins has been great but he throws a shit ton of short balls his receivers gain YAC on.
Haha. Just go the front page and look at all the current threads. Count how many are OSU? Zero- correct? Now count them for “other schools”. Lol it’s always that wayIt's okay to turn the SOC thread into one about France, or the Stirring the Pot thread into one about Whisky. But we have to draw the line at calling into question a chart that says Hornibrook and Patterson are head and shoulders above the rest of the Big Ten QBs.
With McSorley's comp% hovering a centimeter abover 50%, I'm not at all sure any duel with him is guaranteed to have the conference's two best QBs. And so far Haskins, albeit great at it, has been permitted to feast with short throws and enormous YAC (see attached).I mean, I guess. But getting lots of YAC is directly a result of making the right read and making a great throw. How many short throws do we see where the receiver has to stop and can't make much of a play? I'm skeptical of any "rating" that dings a quarterback for making great plays. I'm not skeptical of my eyeballs. Haskins is uber accurate, can wing it all over the field, makes great reads and great throws, and has 25 TD passes. McSorley isn't as accurate, but throws it deeper, and also runs wonderfully and is 6th in the conference in rushing. Who knows how things will shake out, but from what I've seen they are clearly the top two.
Even without PFF grading Hornibrook highest (and here I should admit that their rankings are not opponent-adjusted), I stick with the original claim. We can't know it until the end of the season.
It could easily end up as Haskins-McSorley, Hornibrook-Patterson, McSorley-Hornibrook, Patterson-Haskins, or even Hornibrook-Haskins in a CCG. They are all in striking range and up there and season is 50% (or less) over (depending on schedule).
(https://media.profootballfocus.com/2018/10/1806-All-Big-Ten-QBs-aDOT-768x432.jpg)
Hb not disagreeing. Haskins has been phenomenal.Yes we are on the same page. Ironically just now on my lunch hour listening to the satellite channel ESPNU they were talking about this very game in these two quarterbacks. Neuheisel said that Shea will be good because he’s consistent but the game will come down to whether Hornibrooke can win the game for Wisconsin. But he does not remember some of Hornibrooks better performances obviously . Then they had some other expert that basically was saying what you just said, that Patterson is limited by Michigan’s offense
He does get a lot of YAC. But I see that as him being accurate on the shorter passes. Have to be or the WR’s can’t get YAC.
Just a function of the offenses. Urban’s philosophy is smarter than Harbaugh’s. Can’t imagine what Urb would do with a RB like Evans or an Ath like Ambry Thomas. He’d make them playmakers. At Michigan they are after thoughts.
As for how they rate the adjusted deep ball- I’ve looked through everything I can find from PFF and other sources and it only talks about distance. Haven’t seen them mention time or velocity in anything.
In reading how they come to their rankings they include how long ball is in the air.Can you do me a favor and copy/paste where they say that? I can't find it. What I found was this: (https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/college-breaking-down-the-big-ten-quarterbacks-after-week-6)
Not disagreeing with how good Patterson has been. Just the false narrative that Haskins isn’t accurate on long balls- he has been nothing short of spectacular. And the narrative that he gets his tds on short passes. He gets a lot, but he has a ton that were bullets thrown perfectly into the end zone.
Simply a false narrative. Haskins has completed more passes of 20 yards into the end zone than either QBsI don't know about that stat ("more passes of 20 yards into the endzone ... "), but that's different than the graphic I presented.
It's okay to turn the SOC thread into one about France, or the Stirring the Pot thread into one about Whisky. But we have to draw the line at calling into question a chart that says Hornibrook and Patterson are head and shoulders above the rest of the Big Ten QBs.Ummmm ... that's not what that chart says. The chart argues that 4 QBs are clustered together at the top.
It's okay to turn the SOC thread into one about France, or the Stirring the Pot thread into one about Whisky. But we have to draw the line at calling into question a chart that says Hornibrook and Patterson are head and shoulders above the rest of the Big Ten QBs.SOC threads are unlimited and contain a myriad of topics - as they should. That's what they are for, and have been since ELA started creating them 10 years ago, or so. I love those. The stirring the pot thread was multi-topic from the start. It started as a musing and has morphed into what it is - and it's still ALL pot-stirring if you look closely.
I mean, I guess. But getting lots of YAC is directly a result of making the right read and making a great throw. How many short throws do we see where the receiver has to stop and can't make much of a play?Of course.
I'm skeptical of any "rating" that dings a quarterback for making great plays. I'm not skeptical of my eyeballs. Haskins is uber accurate, can wing it all over the field, makes great reads and great throws, and has 25 TD passes. McSorley isn't as accurate, but throws it deeper, and also runs wonderfully and is 6th in the conference in rushing. Who knows how things will shake out, but from what I've seen they are clearly the top two.I think this conversation is suffering for lack of clarity.
Of course.I think this conversation is suffering for lack of clarity.Success with Short passes with YAC and passes downfield of 20 or more are not mutually exclusive.
The original graphic (QB ratings) clustered Hornibrook, McSorely, Haskins and Patterson at the top of the conference (in that order), and it was based on grades for every throw (accounting for difficulty, situation, and read). Haskins isn't really getting dinged at all (he's getting praised). Also, YAC doesn't seem to dominate that the rating.
The last graphic I posted (avg depth of target) does put Haskins toward the bottom of the conference, but why would anyone read a list like that and swear that it's good to be on top and bad to be on bottom. "Average depth per target" isn't a rating. No one's skill is being measured there. It's just posted for context.
What context was it posted for? The point was raised that Haskins is feasting on high YAC plays. Good for him and good for OSU. There's nothing bad about that. However, there is a remaining question - What happens when OSU finally faces a defense capable of taking away short and intermediate passes? And although this "average depth per target" context can't answer that question, it is relevant insofar as it reminds us that we just don't know the answer yet.
If you just counted Haskins' touchdowns that went over 20 yards in the air, he would still be seventh in the conference in touchdown passes.I'm not sure which point you're making yet. You stated an observation but stopped short of a conclusion. "And therefore ..." (That would help us be clear.)
I'm not sure which point you're making yet. You stated an observation but stopped short of a conclusion. "And therefore ..." (That would help us be clear.)The idea that he hasn't shown the ability to throw the ball downfield consistently is not true, as evidenced by the statistics. Taking away all short and intermediate passes, he still is doing as well as other B1G Qb's.
The idea that he hasn't shown the ability to throw the ball downfield consistently is not true, as evidenced by the statistics. Taking away all short and intermediate passes, he still is doing as well as other B1G Qb's.But (a) you changed the stat to be TDs over 20+ yards through the air and even then (b) acknowledged that he's in the middle of the pack (i.e., he's not "doing as well as [all] other B1G Qb's").
In reading how they come to their rankings they include how long ball is in the air.Could I get a link to that?
Not disagreeing with how good Patterson has been. Just the false narrative that Haskins isn’t accurate on long balls- he has been nothing short of spectacular. And the narrative that he gets his tds on short passes. He gets a lot, but he has a ton that were bullets thrown perfectly into the end zone.
You know, starting a new thread is not illegal here, and it's also FREE!!Eh, I'm not really a thread startin' kinda guy.
Could I get a link to that?The black-and-white world of what should have been is only part of the divergence of the PFF grades from conventional statistics. Not all 20-yard completions are equal, even if the yardage gained is, and the resulting passer rating, etc. Quarterbacks can be heavily reliant on yards after the catch from their receivers to generate their production, and other players have to carry the passing offense far more by themselves.
Yes he does. It he has a bunch that were well over 20 yards, and into the end zoneLets dig into this.
Seems like he has a couple every game.
As for this game, obviously I'm coming from the Michigan perspective and am wondering how many points Michigan will have to earn to win (like, where is that line in the sand?) and I think the number is somewhere in the range of 25 to 30.probably about right. I see 24-20 ish kind of of game
Haterz Disclaimerz: This is not any kind of guarantee that Michigan's offense will get there. I'm just predicting a defensive slugfest and for UW to score fewer than 30, maybe around 20-24.
Then again, I guess it's more fun to put one's neck out there: A 30-23 type game could be it.
Eh, I'm not really a thread startin' kinda guy.Of course you're not then you'd leave yourself open to chop busting for starting a crappy thread.Or even worse,one with no replies
The black-and-white world of what should have been is only part of the divergence of the PFF grades from conventional statistics. Not all 20-yard completions are equal, even if the yardage gained is, and the resulting passer rating, etc. Quarterbacks can be heavily reliant on yards after the catch from their receivers to generate their production, and other players have to carry the passing offense far more by themselves.Nowhere in there does it say how long the ball is in the air, unless I'm really missing something. Unless you're referring to the downfield distance.
The difference in how much of a quarterback’s passing yardage comes in the air can be huge. This season just 44.2 percent of Brett Hundley’s (https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/brett-hundley/9580) yardage came in the air, while the rest was the work of receivers after the catch. That was the lowest mark in the NFL. His average depth of target was 7.8 yards, despite taking 36 deep shots across 10 games of significant snaps.
At the other end of the scale, 65.1 percent of Jameis Winston (https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/jameis-winston/9434)’s yardage came with the ball in the air, 63.9 percent for Carson Wentz (https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/carson-wentz/10636). Winston’s average depth of target was 11.1 yards, or 3.3 yards further down field than Hundley every time he attempted a pass on average. No matter how you quantify it, Winston was being asked to do significantly more with the football than Hundley.
Quarterbacks can of course influence yards after the catch, as impressive ball placement can allow receivers to catch passes without breaking stride, gaining additional yardage they wouldn’t have been able to, if they were forced to stop or adjust significantly to an errant pass. The grading accounts for these differences in accuracy, as what would ordinarily have been positively graded passes can lose some positive grade if the pass was inaccurate enough that it caused substantial yards to be left on the table because of the adjustment it forced.
Next comes the ball placement aspect — how much the same completion asks of the receiver versus being presented to him on a plate. Not all jump balls are alike, and some are really all about the adjustment from the receiver or the work he does to just take the ball away from a defender covering him. While a certain intangible credit can be given to quarterbacks for giving top receivers a chance to make a play, the play they actually make doesn’t make a poorly placed throw any better. (True jump balls are completed about 20 percent of the time.)
On the other hand, there are jump balls that don’t give a defensive back an opportunity to make a play, but require an impressive one from the receiver to reward the gamble. These nuances in ball placement and the reliance on receivers to complete their end of the play or defensive backs to fail to take advantage of their opportunities are another reason why statistics often just do not capture with accuracy what the quarterback did as opposed to what it resulted in.
(https://media.profootballfocus.com/2018/01/USATSI_10439772-1024x634.jpg)
Defining the PFF Grading System: Big-time throws and turnover-worthy throws
Now that we have a basic understanding of the PFF grading system, we can define the throw grades into different buckets.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/category/nfl (https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/category/nfl)
Kind of weird-- I cant count the number of "big Time" downfield NFL throws he has made this year that have amazed even the announcers.
Lets dig into this.nobody is out of shape that I can see.
He's got 24 TDs?
13 are listed as 20 or more yards.
In the air those ones went
6 yards
38
41
-1
24
41
18
1
12
-3
42
5
39
So he has six of those that went more than 20 air yards (We can quibble about 11-20 yarders that we caught at varying depths of the end zone). Those game against Rutgers (2), TCU (1), Tulane (1), IU (2).
The great secret is passes longer than 20 yards in the air are a tiny part of any offense. The tracking of that stat is mostly an oddity, and it makes people mad because we like getting mad when we feel our guys are slighted. The same way we see a weird ranking and get bent out of shape trying to figure out how it's wronging us.
Of course you're not then you'd leave yourself open to chop busting for starting a crappy thread.Or even worse,one with no repliesThat, and I've also been admonished for starting threads too soon, starting threads that are normally started by other posters, and so forth.
:039:
But (a) you changed the stat to be TDs over 20+ yards through the air and even then (b) acknowledged that he's in the middle of the pack (i.e., he's not "doing as well as [all] other B1G Qb's").No, I'm just changing his stats, and comparing it to other quarterbacks entire body of work
Eh, I'm not really a thread startin' kinda guy.slacker
No, I'm just changing his stats, and comparing it to other quarterbacks entire body of workThat's fine, but even then it didn't accomplish what you said it did.
nobody is out of shape that I can see.I don’t know who has more. I don’t have an army of film people. But someone does. And they said who has the best completion percentage of passes more than 20 yards. And their seems to be a lot of offense taken at what those raw numbers are.
Who in the conference has more? Also- when your at the 18 and you throw a perfect pass into the endzone, it does not count as over 20, but it certainly is not the WR getting YAC. I can think of at lest 4 or 5 more that fall into that category.
I will be shocked if any QB in the conference has anywhere near that many TD passes that were true deep balls into or near the end zone.
Just because the guy hits his WR in stride- others want to kid themselves that that's all he is doing. Heck- just go watch the vid I attached earlier.
slackerBrutus is a yards after catch type of guy
pick up your game
throw something downfield more than 20 yards once in awhile!
;)
Brutus gets is a yards after catch type of guyso, he's a yac'er and therefore a slacker
Coaches/AP poll are pretty meaningless until the end of the year imo. S&P+ is probably more accurate.Thank you for grabbing the S&P data so I didn’t have to .
Notre Dame is the best defense that Michigan has seen to date, including Wisconsin's. S&P+ has the Domers unit ranked #5. Wisconsin's is ranked 55th. ND might be the best defense they'll have seen all year.
It will be a close game just because Wisconsin is a good team and also because: Harboffense.
Michigan tends to play a lot better at home than they do on the road. That is the only thing giving me hope. They probably beat a good Wisconsin team at home in a close game this week, then turn around and get embarrassed in East Lansing the next.
ya know, there's a silver lining to having the Huskers start the conference slate at 0-3?Instead of a welcome thread we can have an auf wiedersehen thread?
so, he's a yac'er and therefore a slackerYou can show yerself out
Instead of a welcome thread we can have an auf wiedersehen thread?oh, we're not showing ourselves out
As for this game, obviously I'm coming from the Michigan perspective and am wondering how many points Michigan will have to earn to win (like, where is that line in the sand?) and I think the number is somewhere in the range of 25 to 30.In the pool I play in (this was the game of the week) I took 47 total points as the tiebreaker for my picks. So, like 24-23 or something.
Haterz Disclaimerz: This is not any kind of guarantee that Michigan's offense will get there. I'm just predicting a defensive slugfest and for UW to score fewer than 30, maybe around 20-24.
Then again, I guess it's more fun to put one's neck out there: A 30-23 type game could be it.
Yes we are on the same page. Ironically just now on my lunch hour listening to the satellite channel ESPNU they were talking about this very game in these two quarterbacks. Neuheisel said that Shea will be good because he’s consistent but the game will come down to whether Hornibrooke can win the game for Wisconsin. But he does not remember some of Hornibrooks better performances obviously . Then they had some other expert that basically was saying what you just said, that Patterson is limited by Michigan’s offenseNuhesial is an idiot. And he's a Harbaugh hater.
Thank you for grabbing the S&P data so I didn’t have to .some of his stuff in the run game is very creative. his passing scheme is just bad. they don't use any tempo or pace and short throws to get the defense on it's heals. It honestly feels like he likes throwing to his TE's and FB's more than he likes throwing to his RB's and WR's. Which makes zero since because right now he's got Chris Evans at RB who can run routes like a receiver and catch the ball like a receiver and is a nightmare in the open field. He's also got a senior slot receiver in Grant Perry who is a precise route runner. And he's got a pair of sophomore receivers who are legit in DPJ and Nico Collins. Collins is 6'4+ and can run and go up and snatch the ball. DPJ is a freak of nature athlete. This kid ran a laser timed 4.42 at the opening and a 4.02 shuttle and had a 45" vertical at 6'2, 190 pounds as a 15 year old sophomore in high school. He's got another freak athlete on that squad that should be playing offense a lot more than he does in Ambry Thomas. True frosh Ronnie Bell has flashed. Zach Gentry is the best receiving TE he's had at Michigan. Jake Butt included. And when he gets Tarik Black it'll just be an embarrassment of riches. Shea Patterson is LEGIT. By far the best QB he's had at Michigan and it's not close.
I’m excited to watch Harboffense with skin in the game. It’s weird how he runs oft creative schemes in a manner that feels like it’s all the cliches of boring offense.
Ambry is a BEAST.he came flying like a bat out of hell out of nowhere and almost tackled Ty Johnson on his 98 yard TD kick return. Ambry got his hands on him just couldn't tackle him. Ambry still too thin and his body type looks like a WR to me, not a CB.
oh, we're not showing ourselves outOld bitter drunken Bevo
the money is too good and the Horns won't let us back in the old Big 8
My take on it right now is M 31 UW 16, with M getting a TD on defense.In which case, you'd win your pool. A result we'll both root for.
he came flying like a bat out of hell out of nowhere and almost tackled Ty Johnson on his 98 yard TD kick return. Ambry got his hands on him just couldn't tackle him. Ambry still too thin and his body type looks like a WR to me, not a CB.He stood out that way in high school and at all the camps with the all star college guys
Throw on some highlights of Ginn and then some of Thomas. They have like the exact same build, lanky and thin. And a similar gait when they run. And they both FLY.
Thomas reminds me so much of Ginn it's eerie. Kid should be playing WR and returning punts and kicks. Give DPJ a break and let him focus on route running only. He doesn't need to waste reps practicing punt return or blocking. His route running is what needs work.
In which case, you'd win your pool. A result we'll both root for.
Quote from: (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?topic=5916.msg73911#msg73911)Honestbuckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=37) on Wed Oct 10 2018 08:20:29 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)Because everyone watched the OSU PSU game and his 2 4th quarter TD's were short passes that the wideouts turned into great plays.
Not sure where this narrative is coming from, but Haskins has hit so many downfield TDs into the end zone this year I can’t even keep track of them any more.
Because everyone watched the OSU PSU game and his 2 4th quarter TD's were short passes that the wideouts turned into great plays.But the point is, they were no short throws with the WR turning them into YAC.
Also, the stat measures passes over 20 yards. and yes in the highlights 4 of the 6 passes were into the endzone, but only 2 of the passes were over 20 yards.
DT Aubrey Solomon is practicing. Which means there is a chance he plays in this game.Holy crap! Based on little beyond healthy skepticism, I doubt he's back for this game but I'm now feeling great about his return before PSU. And this DL can operate on an entirely different level if he's actually ready.
That's fine, but even then it didn't accomplish what you said it did.Not sure what you mean. The second highest QB has 11 TDs total - his deep passing TD's keep in in the mix with every other B1G QB. That is my point. The idea that somehow he isn't going downfield or isn't effective down the field is not true and the stats bear that out.
Beyond that, it's still probably true that comp% on all deep passes better measure of efficiency on deep passes. Narrowing it to TDs beyond 20 removes a chunk of data and doesn't really add much in return.
The Michigan OL is 15th in Team Pass Blocking Efficiency (per PFF).Am I reading correctly that UW is 6th in that thing?
https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/college-top-25-observations-week-6 (https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/college-top-25-observations-week-6)
Pay Ed Warriner his money!
Am I reading correctly that UW is 6th in that thing?No, it grades Benzschawel that high as an individual but claims the UW team is #73.
New injury report is out for UW. Losing Loudermilk is huge. He is by far UW's best defensive end, when healthy.UW looking at injury disadvantages for sure now.Dixon playing hobbled, Nelson comes back in the 2nd half that certainly doesn't help.Pray for rain at least Bucky has a running game.If Patterson is going to look the part saturday's the time to do it
Hornibrook is going to have to win this game for UW. M will stack the box for Taylor and force this.Michigan might stack the box, but that's not their M.O. Usually they win up front with 4-6. Excepting goal line (or and-1) situations, Don Brown isn't an 8-man box kind of guy. His main priority is a free athlete to cover every eligible receiver in man (...) until a team proves perfectly one-dimensional (running or otherwise). And then, changing mid game, he sells out against their one thing and they're done dead.
I'm sure this is why no opponent is shaping their game plan to exclusively or primarily go after those guys. Because even if it's "the weakness" of the D, it's still filled with B or B+ players (Metellus, Kinney, and Gil/Ross) who either make plays or permit medium gains. It's very hard to consistently move the ball playing like that.not sure I agree with those guys ratings. I see Mettelus and Kinnel as more of C+ players. Gil and Ross are TBD because neither has played very much. I like what I've seen out of Ross more than Gil. Although I have to say that I do like that Gil is bigger than Devin Bush and probably just as fast if not faster. Not sure he's got everything else down pat yet.
It will be very interesting to see what Paul Chryst can come up with to combat what Don Browne will throw at him. I'm thinking if Taylor and Co. can get to 180 or so, UW has a chance in this thing. If not, it will probably be a long night for Big Red.Michigan's defense on average is holding it's opponents to 63% of their average rushing yards per game and 73% of average passing yardage.
180 is not unreasonable. This isn't Nebraska, NU or UMd (well, UMd has an explosive run offense but still, this is a whole 'nother level). Michigan can't hold everyone under its thumb. If Michigan eventually wins, it won't be obvious until late. This will be a game for a long time.Horni has to get to 180 too.
I think the more controversial conversation would be about how many yards Hornibrook would have if Wisconsin gets 180 on the ground. My thought has been that - one way or the other - UW would earn 240 to 300 total yards.
I'm super late to this thread, and won't read all of it. Bottom line: Michigan is justifiably heavily favored (I think the line is currently 10). Their loss is understandable, against a good team. Wisconsin's loss was a major upset, but frankly, not out of character with how the team is playing. The Badgers' offense is essentially the same as last season. Not any better, not any worse. The defense is substantially worse than last season, and with the dinged up secondary, it will be even worse this weekend.I see your voodoo magic and raise you.
Impossible for the Badgers? No.
Unlikely? Yes. Wisconsin has a terrible record in Ann Arbor--even when they have a better team than Michigan, and this game isn't likely to change that.
So...
There's NO WAY Wisconsin wins. :-)
***BIG TEN GAME OF THE WEEK*** |
#15 Wisconsin Badgers (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan Wolverines (3-0, 5-1) |
7:30 - Ann Arbor, MI - ABC |
Alright Michigan, here we go. Beating up inferior competition isn't nothing, and I mean that. Harbaugh came in, and basically declared the days of dropping games to Maryland, Rutgers and Minnesota was over. The Wolverines have enough talent they should just go line up and win 9+ games a year at worst. But he's not the third highest paid coach in football to win 9 or 10 games, and the next step, the step where some national pundits get him, is these types of games. He's gone 3-7 against conference opponents who finished ranked, and this is the first of many chances left this year to fix that. It starts under center, where Michigan was 104-180 (57.8%) for 1,288 yards (161 ypg), 8 TDs and 4 INTs last year in their 8 wins, but 81-166 (48.8%) for 938 yards, 1 TDs and 6 INTs in their 5 losses. This is why Harbaugh went and got Shea Patterson. His quarterback play with Peters, and probably adding McCaffrey was good, but it wasn't enough to beat Wisconsin or Michigan State or Penn State, or most importantly Ohio State. Notre Dame in his first game in the uniform, on the road, was a tall task. This is at home, against a Wisconsin team that is not playing nearly as well as we assumed they would. They lose this, talking point #1 on Monday, we all know what it will be. Wisconsin is not as far off the mark as Michigan State seems to be, but they aren't particularly close either. Nobody thought the BYU loss was good, but perhaps a forgivable loss to a team that appeared to be improved. Well, since then, we've learned the Cal team that BYU lost to isn't actually good, and the COugars themselves have gotten run off the field in back to back weeks by Washington, and then Utah State. Never thought I'd say this but the Wisconsin problems on defense are glaring. We were shocked when BYU took the fight to them, but maybe we shouldn't have been. Bucky is 2-0 in Big Ten play, but no thanks to their defense. The fact that they are only giving up 20.5 ppg in conference play is a testament to how good they've been at ball control, averaging a league high 35:23 of possession a game. Because of that, their defense has only been on the field for 122 plays through 2 conference games, only Michigan's defense has been on the field less. But that makes sense, the Wolverines' 3.3 ypp allowed in Big Ten play is easily tops, almost a yard and a half PER PLAY ahead of #2 Michigan State (4.7 ypp). The Badgers are LAST by almost a full yard at 7.6 ypp. But they've kept opposing offenses off the field, and they've kept them out of the end zone. The only other defenses at Wisconsin's rate of touchdowns allowed all rank in the top 4 in the conference on defense. So is it smoke and mirrors, or is it the result of some fluky issues? Probably a little bit of both. Th enigma is their pass defense, which has surrendered a ghastly 9.9 ypa in conference play, and has an interception rate that ranks 11th...but is also holding opponents to 59.7% completions, which is actually 5th best. The best solution is an improved pass rush, which has been largely non-existent all year. But the loss of Isaiah Loudermilk to a leg injury doesn't seem to translate to that happening. Where all the fun is going to be is in the trenches when Wisconsin has the ball. Michigan's end are elite, nobody can question that, but can the handle up the middle against what PFF still says is the best offensive line in the Big Ten. The Badgers have to stay ahead of the sticks, because they are certainly better in the middle of the line than on the edges, and they don't want to let Gary and Winovich dial in Hornibrook. Their best pass blocking is probably simply forcing those guys to have to stay honest. A lot is on the play calling here. Wisconsin typically picks up such chunk run plays that they can use 1st down play action "recklessly" without fear of 2nd and 10. Against Michigan...eh? I think Wisconsin will have some success on offense, they did last year. But last year they just kind of hung around while Michigan's offense sputtered, before putting together 4 consecutive drives in the 2nd half where they scored 17 points, and tallied 232 yards on 29 plays (8.0 ypp). Up until that point, Michigan had stymied them to the tune of 97 yards on 27 plays (3.6 ypp). I don't think this year this Michigan offense will be stuck in neutral for so long waiting on Wisconsin to get going. |
MICHIGAN 31, WISCONSIN 23 |
lots of rumors that Tarik Black might be a go for Wisconsin. Black posted something vague and cryptic on his twitter and the rumors are out of control. Please be true.I'm reading the same. It's on twitter, on the radio, and - super weird - may have broken first by the commentators in the USF-Tulsa game.
I'm reading the same. It's on twitter, on the radio, and - super weird - may have broken first by the commentators in the USF-Tulsa game.my guess if Black is back, he'll have a pitch count.
Mostly I'm confused. (1) That's a lot of smoke but I don't know if it's real. (2) If real, how unlike Harbaugh to have let it out before gametime! (3) Just like with Solomon practicing last week, I am incredulous at how accelerated this recovery has been. Actually with Black it seems even harder to believe since there's relatively little benefit to bringing him back too early (the WRs have more than enough depth for the offense to function "normally").
Really didn’t expect that outcome at all. Wisconsin has quite a few curious calls in this game. I’m not sure why they continued to try to pass during important downs. A couple notable times it blew up in their face when they seem to run to the left side at will. Odd. Would have been frustrating to be a Badger fan tonight.Agree on the score being unexpected. As for your two questions. I think I can explain both of those (or at least I noticed both during the game and can share my best guess from then):
Patterson still confuses me, which I know I’m the minority here. He made some great plays with his legs. Also made some great throws. BUT.. something is up with him throwing down field when a receiver isn’t wide open. He is either incredibly reluctant to throw a pick or he doesn’t see the field well. I really think it’s the forward because his judgment and seeing the defense on option reads tonight was fantastic. I’d be ok with him taking a few more chances. Kid definitely has a great arm.
Ok. Finally, a big Harbaugh win. Now do it again.
That was an ugly 2nd half for any UW fan to watch, starting with roughing the snapper. I've seen that called against UW twice now.Not to say the outcome would change, but that was at a most critical time in the game, where they had forced Michigan into a punt on their first possession of the second half. Like the announcers, I think it was quite embellished by Cheeseman, evidenced by the sideline celebration afterward. I suspect a good piece of coaching on UMs part.
That was an ugly 2nd half for any UW fan to watch, starting with roughing the snapper. I've seen that called against UW twice now.Agreed. That one penalty changed so much, effectively giving Michigan a two-score lead to start, and then that was that.
Agree on the score being unexpected. As for your two questions. I think I can explain both of those (or at least I noticed both during the game and can share my best guess from then):I was actually talking about the opposite. He seems to be decisive on quick routes. He seems unwilling to throw down field unless the receive is blatantly wide open. He got himself in trouble a couple times and took a sack once from recollection. If a receiver is wide open, he fires a bullet their way. If there’s any defense near, he pumps and pumps and always turns to his feet.
About Patterson,
- if you're talking about why he had such happy feet (looked physically unsettled early), giving up on his routes in the 1st quarter: Only from recollection, I think those were all quick routes and exceptionally well covered. So quitting on them was the right idea and would explain why he pulled the ball and seemed reluctant to throw. (A good follow-up question is *why* these athletic WRs and TEs were so well covered versus a deeply injured UW secondary)
What I feel is happening at Michigan is a based on the offense, not the Defense.I do like how the team is coming together. But this is getting ahead of itself. Michigan still needs to prove it can win against a good team on the road.
How many years/ times have we read all of your glowing reports about their defense being number on, all The shiny statistics ( you see what I did there Dudekd), only to have it not work down the stretch, and in the biggest games.
The difference now is, there is an offense that;
- doesn’t put them in bad positions
- keeps the ball for defense to rest,
- puts points on the board so Brown can play with house money and get super aggressive.
And it is not because the offense is explosive, which it is AT TIMES.
It is because it has balance. Having the read option threat is HUGE. Kudos to Harbaugh for letting his other coaches have some say in the offense.
I truly think this could be a CFP caliber team, if they get and stay healthy and continue to expand Patterson’s spread playbook.
What’s missing?
Solid RBs. Check
Great defense. check
Ability to pass. Check
QB who doesn’t throw picks. Check
That was an ugly 2nd half for any UW fan to watch, starting with roughing the snapper. I've seen that called against UW twice now.What game was the other call? My brother didn’t know it was a thing and I was trying to explain that I saw it in another Wisconsin game earlier this year.
I understand protecting players from needless injuries, but I think we've gone too far.Agreed. I saw two penalties yesterday that I thought were awful. The penalty we’re referencing and the targeting call against the Gophers. Two helmets making contact should not be targeting. Touching a long snapper should not be a personal foul. There’s safety and there’s pushing us to flag football.
It's football, with helmets and pads
we have had a penalty called unnecessary roughness for a few decades. If someone is being too rough with the long snapper, that can be called. Touching the snapper shouldn't be a penalty
I understand protecting players from needless injuries, but I think we've gone too far.I think that since they are specialized, typically scrawny players, just like a punter, that the rule is meant to treat them just like a punter. Would you recommend doing away with "running into" and "roughing" the punter as penalties, too? And instead turn it into an unnecessary roughness judgment call? Maybe that'd be better, but I'm not convinced.
It's football, with helmets and pads
we have had a penalty called unnecessary roughness for a few decades. If someone is being too rough with the long snapper, that can be called. Touching the snapper shouldn't be a penalty
(...) and the targeting call against the Gophers. Two helmets making contact should not be targeting. Touching a long snapper should not be a personal foul. There’s safety and there’s pushing us to flag football.Yeah, HB and I talked about that one live. I think we decided that either you have to outlaw QBs sliding feet first (not a realistic rule change) or you have to modify the targeting rules so that if a QB chooses to slide feet first, targeting is off the table once his head falls below the height of his standing waist.
I think that since they are specialized, typically scrawny players, just like a punter, that the rule is meant to treat them just like a punter. Would you recommend doing away with "running into" and "roughing" the punter as penalties, too? And instead turn it into an unnecessary roughness judgment call? Maybe that'd be better, but I'm not convinced.I think it's about position. To long snap, you're looking between your legs, head down. If someone jumps on you, they'll basically bend you in half or launch right through you.
What game was the other call? My brother didn’t know it was a thing and I was trying to explain that I saw it in another Wisconsin game earlier this year.Two years ago, in Ann Arbor. I don't recall one against UW earlier this season.
That all comes in back-to-back drives of a tight game. If UW's defense is last year's unit, that can come out in the wash. Against a better team on the road when the tackling/discipline are hit and miss, it turns a maybe competitive game into a blowout.Yeah, and it needs to be said. This one wasn't an inevitable blowout. It felt in doubt (but with odds for a 4 to 10-point M win) until those two drives.
Bonus play was Hornibrook putting a third down pass too far out in front of Davis on third down, then punting from the 43 down 14 with less than 18 minutes left. Didn't help that a second-team All-American lineman got walked into the QB's lap by a fifth-year reserve tackle.I neither understood passing in that situation, nor punting. Was very happy about the pass rush against the UW OL despite Gary being out. Not sure which OL and DL you're referencing here, though. Maybe I'll see if there's a torrent up that the copyright vultures haven't chased down yet.
Also, this has to be said too. Paul Chryst and Joe Rudolph had a really bad day with play calls and decisions. The running game was working and they got away from it too soon in my opinion. Of course, there were times when the game called for passing plays (after it went to 21-7) but before that? Taylor only had 17 carries and Deal had only 1. That's not Wisconsin football.That's exactly right.
Two helmets making contact should not be targeting. Touching a long snapper should not be a personal foul. There’s safety and there’s pushing us to flag football.Seems a lot of normal contact that's unavoidable is being flagged with absolutely no malicious intent
Well in a sense the snapper is defenseless sort of blindsiding from a different angle
I think it's about position. To long snap, you're looking between your legs, head down. If someone jumps on you, they'll basically bend you in half or launch right through you.
I get why it's a call and it probably should be. (I mostly don't mind the punter rules either TBH)
I neither understood passing in that situation, nor punting. Was very happy about the pass rush against the UW OL despite Gary being out. Not sure which OL and DL you're referencing here, though. Maybe I'll see if there's a torrent up that the copyright vultures haven't chased down yet.20:43 here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utzNMnFe6-w&t=1251s
Also, this has to be said too. Paul Chryst and Joe Rudolph had a really bad day with play calls and decisions. The running game was working and they got away from it too soon in my opinion. Of course, there were times when the game called for passing plays (after it went to 21-7) but before that? Taylor only had 17 carries and Deal had only 1. That's not Wisconsin football.This is interesting. Pass/run stuff is usually a combination of style/situation. UW tends to be hype-run heavy on running downs, pass heavy on passing downs. So here's the down/distance for every pass before 21-7.
20:43 here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utzNMnFe6-w&t=1251sWow. Marshall is much improved this year, but I never expect plays like that against even mediocre competition. That's close to the snap of his year. He's the bottom lineman in the rotation. Like you said, hard to tell the effect it had. I have noticed, though, that Hornibrook gets nervous when things close in. That's the only kind of effect it could have had here - psychological.
It's Lawrence Marshall (I think), pushing Michael Dieter back.
Wow. Marshall is much improved this year, but I never expect plays like that against even mediocre competition. That's close to the snap of his year. He's the bottom lineman in the rotation. Like you said, hard to tell the effect it had. I have noticed, though, that Hornibrook gets nervous when things close in. That's the only kind of effect it could have had here - psychological.It looks to me like Hornibrook has to lean a hint with those two in his space. If they get a better angle, perhaps we'll know for sure.
I was a little surprised we didn't see another QB for UW last night. Why not get someone else a few snaps in a meaningless 4th quarter? After the pick 6 even. It was over before then.It's weird. When Chryst started punting around the end of the 3rd Q (can't remember whether it was just before or after), I really thought that was white flag waving. But when he came back later on that garbage time drive and then finished with an onsides kick, it was clear he never gave up. He just thought punting was the right choice. I disagree with him there, but this makes the punts more palatable. And probably explains why he never put in another QB. Because that'd have been a quitting move.
No, he tried to give it a go in warmups and couldn't do it. He injured his foot late in the UNL game.Man, good thing Carriere-Williams quit. He just wasn’t gonna get any PT.
Man, good thing Carriere-Williams quit. He just wasn’t gonna get any PT.It's the funny thing about this boom in transfers as though guys always stay healthy. MSU had 2 WRs transfer (although there had to be more to Rison, because he was likely in the starting group) claiming PT, as MSU was stuck playing most of the game Saturday with one healthy scholarship WR. How often do these PT hunting transfers actually work out?
Oh ya and by the way Michigan can go ahead and give Don Brown, Greg Mattison, and Ed Warriner lifetime contracts and make them the highest paid DC, DL, and OL coaches ASAP.Brown is 63, he's probably at Michigan until he retires, I can't imagine him getting another HC offer worth taking at his age.
Those 3 guys have been the key to this turnaround after that embarrassing ND start.
I think that since they are specialized, typically scrawny players, just like a punter, that the rule is meant to treat them just like a punter. Would you recommend doing away with "running into" and "roughing" the punter as penalties, too? And instead turn it into an unnecessary roughness judgment call? Maybe that'd be better, but I'm not convinced.well, running into the kicker shouldn't b a penalty. If someone hits the kicker hard enough to injure him, it should be 15 yards and automatic. If the kicker simply gets run into or bumped w/o much risk of injury, why the penalty????
The snapper engaged in the block and got beat. Then he did a little dance on the sideline with is buddies after the BS call gave Michigan another chance. Michigan must coach this?? It's only happened to UW twice, and both have been in Ann Arbor (2016 was the other one).Can't imagine how enraging it must be to watch an opposing player celebrate a flop. >:(
Can't imagine how enraging it must be to watch an opposing player celebrate a flop. >:(That’s all the NBA is anymore.
The snapper engaged in the block and got beat. Then he did a little dance on the sideline with is buddies after the BS call gave Michigan another chance. Michigan must coach this?? It's only happened to UW twice, and both have been in Ann Arbor (2016 was the other one).Do you have video,I didn't see it and it has piqued my curiosity
That’s all the NBA is anymore.I was speaking to a specific Wisconsin punter
because you kinda like Michigan, or you'd like to forward it to Urban's cell phone so he doesn't fall into the same trap?Well if your talking to me I nodded off after M's 1st score.Don't feel like sorting thru 3 hrs of game film for 1 play.As far as the other two not that big of a fan of either
I was a long snapper, every time the huddle broke, the Umpire would say quite loudly, 'nobody mess with the snapper'. It was gospel (this was early 90s). Only once did I get mildly rammed by a guy trying to rush a gap on a kick and the flag was thrown.That's how I saw it. A rare call, but probably correct by a smidge (a judgment call leaning this way).
On the play on Saturday in Ann Arbor, while it wasn't a cheap shot per se, it is not typical to see a snapper pushed backwards towards the punter like that. though Cheeseman allowed himself to get taken up in the current IMO.
Brown is 63, he's probably at Michigan until he retires, I can't imagine him getting another HC offer worth taking at his age.Yeah, Brown and Mattison have the same odds of leaving before retirement as Harbaugh leaving for the NFL in the next three years (it's not high). I think it's almost the same of Warriner. My proofless hunch is that he has gotten the OC itch out of his system.
Mattison is 68, he's certainly at Michigan until he retires.
Warriner is only 56, I would think his tenure depends on getting another OC shot or not.
Well if your talking to me I nodded off after M's 1st score.Don't feel like sorting thru 3 hrs of game film for 1 play.As far as the other two not that big of a fan of eitherThey say the millennials are all lazy, and yet I have to go find these things for people.
Yeah the more I watch it, the more I take it back. It's not borderline. He's going backwards before his head comes up enough to even be looking forward. Just like with a girl, engagement is intentional. And you can't pick what you can't see.That's his fault. The first thing you do as a snapper is raise your head. Snapping 101.
Whether I'm right or not, the salt in the wound on that penalty HAS to be that his name is Cheeseman.
That's his fault. The first thing you do as a snapper is raise your head. Snapping 101.Long snappers are allowed to look between their legs. And they are not allowed to be touched unless they engage first.
I think the move is coached, and it worked.
Whereas I'm thinking "Great idea; great results; do it that way forever; what could possibly be the downside for Michigan?"and of course the coaches alert the officials to watch for it
That's his fault. The first thing you do as a snapper is raise your head. Snapping 101.This^^^ look how far he backed - bad call.Look at the players on the M sideline smiling like they pulled a coup
I think the move is coached, and it worked.
This^^^ look how far he backed - bad call.Look at the players on the M sideline smiling like they pulled a coupWhy not celebrate? He did his job, drew a correct call, and it extended a drive to go up by 2 scores. I was equally happy about as they were.
It's a puss move. That's the only downfall for Michigan.I wouldn't call that a downside, just like I don't see a downside for football teams adopting the forward pass, having their QBs slide feet first or having their star players run out of bounds after the 1st down marker but before contact.
Why not celebrate? He did his job, drew a correct call, and it extended a drive to go up by 2 scores. I was equally happy about as they were.It's a bad call/rule I don't blame them for grinning the call wasn't right or had an adverse effect on the play was 847's point