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Topic: #15 Wisconsin (2-1, 4-2) at #12 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) Post Game

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MaximumSam

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2018, 02:11:20 PM »
If you just counted Haskins' touchdowns that went over 20 yards in the air, he would still be seventh in the conference in touchdown passes.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2018, 02:28:15 PM »
If you just counted Haskins' touchdowns that went over 20 yards in the air, he would still be seventh in the conference in touchdown passes.
I'm not sure which point you're making yet. You stated an observation but stopped short of a conclusion. "And therefore ..." (That would help us be clear.)

MaximumSam

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2018, 02:31:50 PM »
I'm not sure which point you're making yet. You stated an observation but stopped short of a conclusion. "And therefore ..." (That would help us be clear.)
The idea that he hasn't shown the ability to throw the ball downfield consistently is not true, as evidenced by the statistics.  Taking away all short and intermediate passes, he still is doing as well as other B1G Qb's.  

Anonymous Coward

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2018, 03:06:02 PM »
The idea that he hasn't shown the ability to throw the ball downfield consistently is not true, as evidenced by the statistics.  Taking away all short and intermediate passes, he still is doing as well as other B1G Qb's.  
But (a) you changed the stat to be TDs over 20+ yards through the air and even then (b) acknowledged that he's in the middle of the pack (i.e., he's not "doing as well as [all] other B1G Qb's").
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 03:31:00 PM by Anonymous Coward »

bayareabadger

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2018, 03:27:59 PM »
In reading how they come to their rankings they include how long ball is in the air.  
Not disagreeing with how good Patterson has been. Just the false narrative that Haskins isn’t accurate on long balls- he has been nothing short of spectacular. And the narrative that he gets his tds on short passes.  He gets a lot, but he has a ton that were bullets thrown perfectly into the end zone.
Could I get a link to that?

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2018, 03:36:32 PM »
 You know, starting a new thread is not illegal here, and it's also FREE!!
Eh, I'm not really a thread startin' kinda guy. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

Anonymous Coward

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2018, 03:39:39 PM »
As for this game, obviously I'm coming from the Michigan perspective and am wondering how many points Michigan will have to earn to win (like, where is that line in the sand?) and I think the number is somewhere in the range of 25 to 30. 

Haterz Disclaimerz: This is not any kind of guarantee that Michigan's offense will get there. I'm just predicting a defensive slugfest and for UW to score fewer than 30, maybe around 20-24.

Then again, I guess it's more fun to put one's neck out there: A 30-23 type game could be it.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2018, 03:44:35 PM »
Fewer than 30 yards per quarter, perhaps. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

Honestbuckeye

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2018, 03:48:21 PM »
Could I get a link to that?
The black-and-white world of what should have been is only part of the divergence of the PFF grades from conventional statistics. Not all 20-yard completions are equal, even if the yardage gained is, and the resulting passer rating, etc. Quarterbacks can be heavily reliant on yards after the catch from their receivers to generate their production, and other players have to carry the passing offense far more by themselves.
The difference in how much of a quarterback’s passing yardage comes in the air can be huge. This season just 44.2 percent of Brett Hundley’s yardage came in the air, while the rest was the work of receivers after the catch. That was the lowest mark in the NFL. His average depth of target was 7.8 yards, despite taking 36 deep shots across 10 games of significant snaps.
At the other end of the scale, 65.1 percent of Jameis Winston’s yardage came with the ball in the air, 63.9 percent for Carson Wentz. Winston’s average depth of target was 11.1 yards, or 3.3 yards further down field than Hundley every time he attempted a pass on average. No matter how you quantify it, Winston was being asked to do significantly more with the football than Hundley.
Quarterbacks can of course influence yards after the catch, as impressive ball placement can allow receivers to catch passes without breaking stride, gaining additional yardage they wouldn’t have been able to, if they were forced to stop or adjust significantly to an errant pass. The grading accounts for these differences in accuracy, as what would ordinarily have been positively graded passes can lose some positive grade if the pass was inaccurate enough that it caused substantial yards to be left on the table because of the adjustment it forced.
Next comes the ball placement aspect — how much the same completion asks of the receiver versus being presented to him on a plate. Not all jump balls are alike, and some are really all about the adjustment from the receiver or the work he does to just take the ball away from a defender covering him. While a certain intangible credit can be given to quarterbacks for giving top receivers a chance to make a play, the play they actually make doesn’t make a poorly placed throw any better. (True jump balls are completed about 20 percent of the time.)
On the other hand, there are jump balls that don’t give a defensive back an opportunity to make a play, but require an impressive one from the receiver to reward the gamble. These nuances in ball placement and the reliance on receivers to complete their end of the play or defensive backs to fail to take advantage of their opportunities are another reason why statistics often just do not capture with accuracy what the quarterback did as opposed to what it resulted in.

Defining the PFF Grading System: Big-time throws and turnover-worthy throws
Now that we have a basic understanding of the PFF grading system, we can define the throw grades into different buckets.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/category/nfl

Kind of weird-- I cant count the number of "big Time" downfield NFL throws he has made this year that have amazed even the announcers.



Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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bayareabadger

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2018, 03:50:47 PM »
Yes he does.  It he has a bunch that were well over 20 yards, and into the end zone  
Seems like he has a couple every game.
Lets dig into this.
He's got 24 TDs?
13 are listed as 20 or more yards. 
In the air those ones went 
6 yards
38
41
-1
24
41
18
1
12
-3
42
5
39
So he has six of those that went more than 20 air yards (We can quibble about 11-20 yarders that we caught at varying depths of the end zone). Those game against Rutgers (2), TCU (1), Tulane (1), IU (2). 
The great secret is passes longer than 20 yards in the air are a tiny part of any offense. The tracking of that stat is mostly an oddity, and it makes people mad because we like getting mad when we feel our guys are slighted. The same way we see a weird ranking and get bent out of shape trying to figure out how it's wronging us. 

Honestbuckeye

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2018, 03:52:08 PM »
As for this game, obviously I'm coming from the Michigan perspective and am wondering how many points Michigan will have to earn to win (like, where is that line in the sand?) and I think the number is somewhere in the range of 25 to 30.

Haterz Disclaimerz: This is not any kind of guarantee that Michigan's offense will get there. I'm just predicting a defensive slugfest and for UW to score fewer than 30, maybe around 20-24.

Then again, I guess it's more fun to put one's neck out there: A 30-23 type game could be it.
probably about right.  I see 24-20 ish kind of of game
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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MrNubbz

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2018, 03:52:30 PM »
Eh, I'm not really a thread startin' kinda guy.
Of course you're not then you'd leave yourself open to chop busting for starting a crappy thread.Or even worse,one with no replies 
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Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

bayareabadger

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2018, 03:56:18 PM »
The black-and-white world of what should have been is only part of the divergence of the PFF grades from conventional statistics. Not all 20-yard completions are equal, even if the yardage gained is, and the resulting passer rating, etc. Quarterbacks can be heavily reliant on yards after the catch from their receivers to generate their production, and other players have to carry the passing offense far more by themselves.
The difference in how much of a quarterback’s passing yardage comes in the air can be huge. This season just 44.2 percent of Brett Hundley’s yardage came in the air, while the rest was the work of receivers after the catch. That was the lowest mark in the NFL. His average depth of target was 7.8 yards, despite taking 36 deep shots across 10 games of significant snaps.
At the other end of the scale, 65.1 percent of Jameis Winston’s yardage came with the ball in the air, 63.9 percent for Carson Wentz. Winston’s average depth of target was 11.1 yards, or 3.3 yards further down field than Hundley every time he attempted a pass on average. No matter how you quantify it, Winston was being asked to do significantly more with the football than Hundley.
Quarterbacks can of course influence yards after the catch, as impressive ball placement can allow receivers to catch passes without breaking stride, gaining additional yardage they wouldn’t have been able to, if they were forced to stop or adjust significantly to an errant pass. The grading accounts for these differences in accuracy, as what would ordinarily have been positively graded passes can lose some positive grade if the pass was inaccurate enough that it caused substantial yards to be left on the table because of the adjustment it forced.
Next comes the ball placement aspect — how much the same completion asks of the receiver versus being presented to him on a plate. Not all jump balls are alike, and some are really all about the adjustment from the receiver or the work he does to just take the ball away from a defender covering him. While a certain intangible credit can be given to quarterbacks for giving top receivers a chance to make a play, the play they actually make doesn’t make a poorly placed throw any better. (True jump balls are completed about 20 percent of the time.)
On the other hand, there are jump balls that don’t give a defensive back an opportunity to make a play, but require an impressive one from the receiver to reward the gamble. These nuances in ball placement and the reliance on receivers to complete their end of the play or defensive backs to fail to take advantage of their opportunities are another reason why statistics often just do not capture with accuracy what the quarterback did as opposed to what it resulted in.

Defining the PFF Grading System: Big-time throws and turnover-worthy throws
Now that we have a basic understanding of the PFF grading system, we can define the throw grades into different buckets.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/category/nfl

Kind of weird-- I cant count the number of "big Time" downfield NFL throws he has made this year that have amazed even the announcers.




Nowhere in there does it say how long the ball is in the air, unless I'm really missing something. Unless you're referring to the downfield distance. 

Honestbuckeye

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Re: #15 Wisconsin (2-0, 4-1) at #12 Michigan (3-0, 5-1) Game Week
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2018, 03:56:35 PM »
Lets dig into this.
He's got 24 TDs?
13 are listed as 20 or more yards.
In the air those ones went
6 yards
38
41
-1
24
41
18
1
12
-3
42
5
39
So he has six of those that went more than 20 air yards (We can quibble about 11-20 yarders that we caught at varying depths of the end zone). Those game against Rutgers (2), TCU (1), Tulane (1), IU (2).
The great secret is passes longer than 20 yards in the air are a tiny part of any offense. The tracking of that stat is mostly an oddity, and it makes people mad because we like getting mad when we feel our guys are slighted. The same way we see a weird ranking and get bent out of shape trying to figure out how it's wronging us.
nobody is out of shape that I can see.
Who in the conference has more?  Also- when your at the 18 and you throw a perfect pass into the endzone, it does not count as over 20, but it certainly is not the WR getting YAC.   I can think of at lest 4 or 5 more that fall into that category.
I will be shocked if any QB in the conference has anywhere near that many TD passes that were true deep balls into or near the end zone.
Just because the guy hits his WR in stride- others want to kid themselves that that's all he is doing.  Heck- just go watch the vid I attached earlier.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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