header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~

 (Read 122299 times)

Brutus Buckeye

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11231
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #882 on: January 31, 2018, 10:24:47 AM »
Is Purdue going to be able to make it wire to wire through the Big Ten regular season, without tripping over any of the road apples? 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12140
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #883 on: January 31, 2018, 10:41:31 AM »
Is Purdue going to be able to make it wire to wire through the Big Ten regular season, without tripping over any of the road apples?
Well, @MSU wouldn't even be an upset for Purdue to lose. Apparently the win probability in that game is ~54% MSU. 
And tonight's home game against Maryland and a week from now against OSU are tough even at home.
Right before a week of playing vOSU/@MSU is this Saturday's game @RU. A road game against a downtrodden but plucky conference foe? Can you say "trap game".
If Purdue gets to 14-0, my money is on them making it to 18. But the next 11 days are not an easy road.

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20280
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #884 on: January 31, 2018, 11:12:07 AM »
Well, @MSU wouldn't even be an upset for Purdue to lose. Apparently the win probability in that game is ~54% MSU.
And tonight's home game against Maryland and a week from now against OSU are tough even at home.
Right before a week of playing vOSU/@MSU is this Saturday's game @RU. A road game against a downtrodden but plucky conference foe? Can you say "trap game".
If Purdue gets to 14-0, my money is on them making it to 18. But the next 11 days are not an easy road.
Yeah, I think MSU has a slightly better frontcourt, and much better depth.  But Purdue has a much better backcourt.  MSU's backcourt is serviceable shooting the ball, and pretty good in transition, but terrible in the hafl court, and can't defend to save their lives.  Haas will do some damage, but I think MSU does ok down low there, but I think Purdue absolutely kills them on the perimeter.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #885 on: January 31, 2018, 11:22:48 AM »
Nebraska may finish 4th, as a product of their schedule, but Michigan would have to fall off quite a bit for Nebraska to leap them in terms of tourney profile.
Well, @MSU wouldn't even be an upset for Purdue to lose. Apparently the win probability in that game is ~54% MSU.
And tonight's home game against Maryland and a week from now against OSU are tough even at home.
Right before a week of playing vOSU/@MSU is this Saturday's game @RU. A road game against a downtrodden but plucky conference foe? Can you say "trap game".
If Purdue gets to 14-0, my money is on them making it to 18. But the next 11 days are not an easy road.
On this subject of schedules, the B1G schedule this year deprived us of a lot of top games.  
We've talked at length about Nebraska's favorable schedule, but the Spartans may have an even more favorable schedule.  At this point I believe that, barring a Terrapin win in West Lafayette tonight, the Cornhuskers have passed the Terrapins and are one of the top five teams in the league.  My position is that the top five teams are (not in order):  PU, tOSU, MSU, UNL, M.  
Each of the five could potentially play eight games against top-5 opponents.  Instead, here is what they each play:
  • 6 Michigan:  four away, two home
  • 5 Purdue:  two away, three home
  • 5 Ohio State:  two away, three home
  • 4 Nebraska:  three away, one home
  • 4 Michigan State:  ONE away, three home

I quoted Bwar's post because I found it interesting that the three biggest games in the league this year (apparently) are MSU@tOSU, tOSU@PU, and PU@MSU.  One was way back in early January and the other two are back-to-back Purdue games starting a week from today.  

I also agree with Bwar that the next four are the issue as to whether or not Purdue will make it to 18-0:
  • tonight vs Maryland:  The Terrapins are in trouble and desperate for a quality win.  
  • Saturday at Rutgers:  This is pretty much the textbook definition of a trap game.  
  • Wed, Feb 7 vs Ohio State:  Home game, but against one of the better teams in the league.  
  • Sat, Feb 10 at Michigan State:  Clearly Purdue's toughest game of the year.  
That is some tough scheduling there.  

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #886 on: January 31, 2018, 11:50:52 AM »
Current tiers (with +/- for upsets):
  • Purdue, Michigan State -1
  • Ohio State even*
  • Nebraska +2, Michigan +1, Maryland, Penn State -1, Minnesota -3*
  • Indiana +1, Wisconsin, Northwestern
  • Iowa +2, Rutgers, Illinois -1
*See earlier note about Ohio State's win over Minnesota in NYC not really being an upset.  

Looking at the teams that are +/- 2 or more:

Nebraska +2:
There are five games in which tier-2 vs tier-3 makes a difference (home games against the two tier-1 teams and road games against the three tier-4 teams).  Of those five:
  • Nebraska does not play three (vsMSU, vsPU, @IU)
  • Nebraska won two (@UW, @NU)
Thus, Nebraska is 2-0 in games where tier-2/tier-3 makes a difference.  They will be promoted to tier-2.  

Minnesota -3*:
There are five games in which tier-3 vs tier-4 makes a difference (home games against the tier-2 teams and road games against the tier-5 teams).  Of those five:
  • One was moved to a neutral site where MN lost (vstOSU)
  • Two are not played (@IL, @RU)
  • Minnesota lost one (@IA)
  • One is yet to be played (vUNL)
Thus Minnesota is 0-1 with one to play.  

Iowa +2:
Moving Minnesota down to tier-4 will put Iowa back to +1.  

New tiers (with +/- for upsets):
  • Purdue, Michigan State -1
  • Nebraska, Ohio State -1
  • Michigan +1, Maryland, Penn State -1
  • Wisconsin +1, Indiana +1, Northwestern +1, Minnesota -1
  • Iowa +1, Rutgers, Illinois -1

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #887 on: January 31, 2018, 12:01:30 PM »
Based on the updated tiers (see above) the updated projected final standings and BTT seeds are:
  • 17-1 Purdue
  • 16-2 Michigan State
  • 14-4 Ohio State (wins tiebreaker over UNL based on H2H, no game in Lincoln)
  • 14-4 Nebraska
  • 10-8 Penn State (wins tiebreaker over M based on H2H, no game in Ann Arbor)
  • 10-8 Michigan
  • 8-10 Maryland
  • 7-11 Northwestern (wins tiebreaker over Indiana based on H2H, no game in Bloomington)
  • 7-11 Indiana
  • 6-12 Wisconsin
  • 5-13 Rutgers (wins tiebreaker over Iowa based on H2H, no game in Iowa City)
  • 5-13 Iowa
  • 4-14 Minnesota
  • 3-15 Illinois
The match-ups for the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
  • #11 Rutgers vs #14 Illinois, 8pm, BTN
  • #12 Iowa vs #13 Minnesota, 5:30pm, BTN
Thursday, March 1:
  • #5 Penn State vs IA/MN, 2:30pm, BTN
  • #6 Michigan vs RU/IL, 9pm, BTN
  • #7 Maryland vs #10 Wisconsin, 6:30pm, BTN
  • #8 Northwestern vs #9 Indiana, noon, BTN
Friday, March 2:
  • #1 Purdue vs NU/IU, noon, BTN
  • #2 Michigan State vs UMD/UW, 9pm, BTN
  • #3 Ohio State vs M/RU/IL, 9pm, BTN
  • #4 Nebraska vs PSU/IA/MN, 2:30pm, BTN
Saturday, March 3:
  • PU/NU/IU vs UNL/PSU/IA/MN, 2:30pm, CBS
  • MSU/UMD/UW vs tOSU/M/RU/IL, 4:30pm, CBS
Sunday, March 4:
  • PU/NU/IU/UNL/PSU/IA/MN vs MSU/UMD/UW/tOSU/M/RU/IL, 4:30pm, CBS

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12140
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #888 on: January 31, 2018, 01:47:21 PM »
Yeah, I think MSU has a slightly better frontcourt, and much better depth.  But Purdue has a much better backcourt.  MSU's backcourt is serviceable shooting the ball, and pretty good in transition, but terrible in the hafl court, and can't defend to save their lives.  Haas will do some damage, but I think MSU does ok down low there, but I think Purdue absolutely kills them on the perimeter.
To be honest, I don't watch a lot of teams outside Purdue, but I'm a little surprised that anyone is rating a frontcourt better than Purdue's.
Haas is a downright beast. I don't care who MSU has, if you are trying to defend him without double-teaming, he's going to eat you alive. He's got amazing post moves and can score easily on traditional centers, and athletic 5's just don't have the muscle to stop him if he gets the ball on the low block. Oh, and if you try to swarm and double-team him? He's become great at passing out of the post to a collection of the best 3-pt shooters in the country. His downside of course is *defending* athletic 5's, particularly if they're stretch 5's (guys like Wagner). He doesn't defend well away from the basket. I don't know if MSU has one of those, but I don't recall Ward being that, nor any of the other taller forwards other than JJJ.
At the 4 we have Vince Edwards, who is basically a do-it-all Swiss Army Knife player. He can take over and be the team's leading scorer on any given night, he's a solid [if not phenomenal] defender, and pretty good rebounder. He doesn't have elite athleticism, but he's no slouch. He's got pretty solid BBIQ. He might have trouble defending someone with the length and athleticism of JJJ (assuming JJJ doesn't play in the post where he'll get Haas or Haarms), or the freak athleticism of Bridges [not sure if Mathias will draw Bridges if MSU tries to play big with Ward/JJJ/Bridges?]. But he's a crafty senior who can often use his BBIQ and experience to mask some of his lack of athleticism.
And then you have Haarms backing up Haas and very occasionally playing alongside him. Haas is a more natural defender and more athletic than Haas, and at 7'3" has the length to be an elite shot-blocker. He's the most natural defensive answer to JJJ in my opinion. His liability is offense, but Purdue completely changes up their offensive scheme when he comes in for Haas, and they don't play so much through the post, so MSU has to be able to defend much differently depending on Purdue's personnel.
As you point out, we don't have great depth. Beyond Haas/Haarms we have Jacquil Taylor, a long athletic 5 but who doesn't get many minutes [partly plagued by 3 years of injuries cutting into his practice and development], and Grady Eifert, a preferred walk-on who plays above his talent level but is really only suitable for spot minutes when Vince is gassed. 
----------------
I think MSU has a hard task defensively. If you try to play Haas straight up, I'm not sure there's anyone on MSU's roster than can defend him. If you try to double him, those perimeter defenders you malign are short one man against a floor full of capable shooters. Heck, if the perimeter defense is as bad as you suggest, you might still give up too much to our shooters without doubling Haas. Although Haas has had quiet games this year, it's always been when people try to double-team him, and those are the games that our shooters go nuts. It's not that he's not helping the offense when he has a quiet night, it's that he's drawing so much attention that he's opening things up for others.
On the other end is where it'll be hardest for Purdue. MSU has the length and athleticism that has traditionally given Painter teams fits. The strategy has to be to draw Haas out of the paint to open up driving lanes, and attack with your athleticism. Yet from what I've seen, I'm not sure MSU has always done this. I seem to remember the big knock on Bridges being that he should be just abusing people off the dribble with his size and freakish athleticism, but he seems to be content jacking up 3's. But this might be one of the few games where you actually see some "twin towers" going on with Haas down low against Ward, Haarms chasing JJJ around the perimeter, and Edwards trying to keep Bridges from getting the ball down low and cutting where he can attack. The question is whether Haas can play enough minutes [he typically plays only 20-25 per game] in that kind of scenario, and whether Purdue can find ways to exploit MSU offensively if they've got both bigs on the floor [Haarms *can* shoot, but he hasn't quite found his groove yet].

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37407
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #889 on: January 31, 2018, 02:00:27 PM »
Nebraska may finish 4th, as a product of their schedule, but Michigan would have to fall off quite a bit for Nebraska to leap them in terms of tourney profile.
we can always hope
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20280
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #890 on: January 31, 2018, 02:27:14 PM »
To be honest, I don't watch a lot of teams outside Purdue, but I'm a little surprised that anyone is rating a frontcourt better than Purdue's.
As of last I checked MSU's front court defense was historically good.  The gap between their interior defense in terms of FG% and #2 was the same as between #2 and like #73.  Still leading the nation in blocked shots as well.  As I said though, MSU's edge in the front court is MUCH smaller than Purdue's edge in the backcourt, which is why I'd pick Purdue to win.

grillrat

  • Player
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 590
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #891 on: January 31, 2018, 03:10:40 PM »
MSU is going to win the game against Purdue.  They will come out like gangbusters because A) They know that it is a must-win if they have any shot at getting a Big Ten title, B) They know that their schedule has been somewhat weak, and this is literally their only shot at getting another top 50 RPI win this year.  (Yes, I am aware of the fact that I am using RPI in an argument......inherently flawed, I know).

MSU has played four top 50 teams so far, and lost three of them (Duke, OSU, and Michigan).  Their one Top 50 win (UNC, #11) has lost three in a row and still has games of Duke, @NCSt, @Louisville, Miami, and @ Duke.  It's distinctly possible that they lose all 5 of those.  With a likely loss somewhere in the ACC tournament, they are looking at a possible 20-13 season.  That might keep them in the top 50, but it could be close.

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20280
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #892 on: January 31, 2018, 03:19:49 PM »
MSU is going to win the game against Purdue.  They will come out like gangbusters because A) They know that it is a must-win if they have any shot at getting a Big Ten title, B) They know that their schedule has been somewhat weak, and this is literally their only shot at getting another top 50 RPI win this year.  (Yes, I am aware of the fact that I am using RPI in an argument......inherently flawed, I know).

MSU has played four top 50 teams so far, and lost three of them (Duke, OSU, and Michigan).  Their one Top 50 win (UNC, #11) has lost three in a row and still has games of Duke, @NCSt, @Louisville, Miami, and @ Duke.  It's distinctly possible that they lose all 5 of those.  With a likely loss somewhere in the ACC tournament, they are looking at a possible 20-13 season.  That might keep them in the top 50, but it could be close.
Didn't they start moving away from just RPI?  Some of the other metrics are more favorable to the Big Ten.  Maryland is #42 in KenPom, and Penn State and Nebraska are just out at #56 and #57.  UNC is still up at #13, so I imagine they'll remain.  The RPI is really down on the Big Ten this year.  I noticed during the MSU-Maryland game on Sunday, when they showed Maryland's resume, they had a road loss at #23 Michigan slated as a "Bad Loss."  I can't recall losing a road game to a ranked team ever being called a Bad Loss before.
MSU's schedule got hurt by (aside from the Big Ten being down), Notre Dame crashing once Bonzie Colson got hurt.  He was leading them in points and rebounds, and they were #5 when MSU played them.  Also playing UConn didn't exactly help like they assumed it would.  On paper; Duke, Georgetown, UConn, UNC and ND looked really good, then Georgetown dropped out and replaced by DePaul; UConn, UNC and ND are all not what they typically are.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12140
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #893 on: January 31, 2018, 03:29:47 PM »
As of last I checked MSU's front court defense was historically good.  The gap between their interior defense in terms of FG% and #2 was the same as between #2 and like #73.  Still leading the nation in blocked shots as well.  As I said though, MSU's edge in the front court is MUCH smaller than Purdue's edge in the backcourt, which is why I'd pick Purdue to win.
So I'm intrigued by this... Again, I haven't watched a lot of MSU basketball. But I remember Purdue a few years ago with Hammons (an elite shot-blocker) who was able to clean up defensive missed assignments on the perimeter. He didn't get all those blocks by stopping opposing centers; he got them blocking drives. I wonder whether MSU's great 2P FG% and block numbers are coming from strong post defense, or are coming from being able to keep slashing guards and wings from getting the ball in the hoop. 
When Haas is on the floor, Purdue doesn't run a lot of "drive to the hoop" offense. While he's shown ability to hit players cutting to the hoop when double-teamed, generally the team likes to space the floor and get the ball to him one-on-one on the low block. A defender who is good at timing jumps to affect a driving guard's shot is a lot different than being able to defend Isaac on his little spin moves and hook shots 2 feet from the rim.
Who do you think will draw the defensive assignment in the post against Haas? Can Ward put enough body on him to keep him from getting low block position? Does MSU do a really good job of denying entry passes into the post [I know some teams have done better fronting Haas to keep the ball out of the post than trying to block his position in the post]? 
But from what I've seen, the only way to stop Isaac is to double-team him aggressively as soon as he receives the ball, or keep him from getting it entirely. If he gets the ball on the low block against any single defender, it's pretty much over. 

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20280
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #894 on: January 31, 2018, 04:18:42 PM »
The help side defense, particularly from JJ has been the best I've seen at MSU.  The other thing is all of their depth is on that front line, so they are also defending without fear of fouling.  Jackson picked up his 4th foul with about 12 minutes left in the Maryland game, and he didn't come back in until about the 2 minute mark.  Typically, that would either be crippling, or they'd have to risk it, and keep him in, telling him to back off.  I think Ward is also showing how good he is as a defender, he blocked 5 of Happ's shots in one half last Friday.  He was victimized by MSU having zero frontline depth last year, and having to stay out of foul trouble.  Getting to go all out, he's a much better shot blocker than we ever thought he was.  So we got Schilling and Carter back from injuries that cost them all of 2017, and added Jackson and Tillman, and at times I get frustrated why guys are on the bench too much, but the way college basketball is now, there are times you can only play 1.  Going to revert next year with Schilling and Carter graduating, Jackson assuredly a 1 and done, and rumors Ward might go too.

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20280
  • Liked:
Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
« Reply #895 on: January 31, 2018, 04:23:55 PM »
The help side defense, particularly from JJ has been the best I've seen at MSU.  The other thing is all of their depth is on that front line, so they are also defending without fear of fouling.  Jackson picked up his 4th foul with about 12 minutes left in the Maryland game, and he didn't come back in until about the 2 minute mark.  Typically, that would either be crippling, or they'd have to risk it, and keep him in, telling him to back off.  I think Ward is also showing how good he is as a defender, he blocked 5 of Happ's shots in one half last Friday.  He was victimized by MSU having zero frontline depth last year, and having to stay out of foul trouble.  Getting to go all out, he's a much better shot blocker than we ever thought he was.  So we got Schilling and Carter back from injuries that cost them all of 2017, and added Jackson and Tillman, and at times I get frustrated why guys are on the bench too much, but the way college basketball is now, there are times you can only play 1.  Going to revert next year with Schilling and Carter graduating, Jackson assuredly a 1 and done, and rumors Ward might go too.
To add some stats to it, they held Happ to 36% from the floor on Friday, on 19 shots.  That was his 2nd lowest from the season, and his lowest (33%) came on only 6 shots against OSU.  I think at least 6 or 7 of misses came via blocked shot.
The teams who have neutralized MSU's interior defense the best have done so by spacing the floor and eliminating that help defense.  Granted that only works if you have 4 three point threats on the court together.  Obviously Michigan was the best example of that.  Duke was forced to do the same once Bagley got hurt, and it maybe worked out better for them matchup wise.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.