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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: ELA on July 24, 2017, 08:43:47 AM

Title: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on July 24, 2017, 08:43:47 AM
Start it with some recruiting news, WI PF Joey Hauser, who had MSU and Wisconsin in his final 3, chose Marquette over the weekend.  They were the favorites all along.

I think Wojo is actually doing a decent job there.  Funny, after years of nothing but failed former assistants, looks like two potential Coach K replacements from within the tree are blossoming simultaneously in Wojo and Collins.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 24, 2017, 08:48:38 AM
Had Bo Ryan (or Tom Izzo) taken his brother, Joey would be a Badger (or Spartan) today.

That is the bottom line and it was the same thing with the Ellenson brothers.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on July 24, 2017, 07:32:04 PM
It sounds like Moe Wagner keeps developing. Germany was middle of the pack in the FIBA U-20 European Championships, but Mo led the team in points (16.1 pts) and rebounds (5.3 rbs).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 25, 2017, 01:42:04 PM
This is more of a 2018 recruiting thing, but Jaelin Llewellen (sp?), PG who held offers from several B1G schools [including Purdue] and several ACC schools, has committed to Princeton.

Sounds like a smart young man, and you can't exactly blame someone for wanting a diploma from Princeton, but I still wish he'd have brought those smarts to West Lafayette lol...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on July 25, 2017, 02:48:46 PM
It sounds like Moe Wagner keeps developing. Germany was middle of the pack in the FIBA U-20 European Championships, but Mo led the team in points (16.1 pts) and rebounds (5.3 rbs).

And then I realized that this league probably has a lower level of competition than the Big Ten and decided to call it a big nothing burger.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on July 27, 2017, 10:06:41 PM

At what point do you realize your metric is garbage and go back to the lab?


Apparently OSU is in for a big season, and Purdue is going to be better without Swanigan


http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20163677/surprise-experienced-wichita-state-shockers-top-summer-bpi-update
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 28, 2017, 12:37:12 PM
At what point do you realize your metric is garbage and go back to the lab?


Apparently OSU is in for a big season, and Purdue is going to be better without Swanigan


http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20163677/surprise-experienced-wichita-state-shockers-top-summer-bpi-update

Well yes, it's a garbage metric.

That said, I see some ways that Purdue as a team may improve. Swanigan was an elite player, and he will be missed, but there were times that Purdue tried to force things through Biggie because he was that good. And there were times that he couldn't play defense because he was too valuable to the team to get into foul trouble. Purdue will be a more balanced team next year.

Purdue will have 4 seniors who have all played extensive minutes their whole careers. Carsen Edwards will be more reliable as a sophomore (and with FIBA U19 experience under Calipari). Purdue is bringing in Juco and freshmen players with great athleticism, which should allow us to have some very interesting matchup options. Purdue might again have the best frontcourt in the conference despite losing Swanigan, and I would expect our guard play to improve relative to 2016-17.

This team would be better this year if we had all those things I just mentioned PLUS Swanigan than without Swanigan. However, this 2017-18 team without Swanigan might end up better than the 2016-17 team was with him.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on July 28, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
At what point do you realize your metric is garbage and go back to the lab?


Apparently OSU is in for a big season, and Purdue is going to be better without Swanigan


http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20163677/surprise-experienced-wichita-state-shockers-top-summer-bpi-update

You know I love me some metrics, and while I don't have much love for BPI, I think this particular complaint is interesting and worth meditating on.

I'm assuming you're not earth-shatteringly mad at the Shockers (maybe you are), but I'll look at the Purdue and OSU things.

Purdue: They return just shy of 80 percent of their minutes. I think Biggie was damn good, but I also wouldn't be blown away if a super seasoned team could be that good or better. I saw UW get better without Alando Tucker. MSU took a slight step back when it lost Green, plus another two starters from his last team. It also stands to reason Purdue is over-ranked because BPI might not put enough emphasis on starz and too much on returning players (thus hurting one-and-done-reliant teams). Of course, fans might also put too much emphasis on the biggest names, but who knows?

OSU: This one seemed weird. OSU probably didn't move up in coach given their metric, lost a lot of the roster, isn't bringing in five-stars. But then I read closer, and they really should emphasize this: "One factor not considered in preseason BPI 1.0 is transfers." So that projection assumes OSU is returning seven rotation players and adding a pair of four-stars, losing only Thompson and Loving. If that was the case, a jump from the mid-60s to 30 is not all that illogical.

Now all this asks a larger question of metrics-based projections, what do we want from them? Do we want them to about reflect our preconceived narratives? Because if we do, why would we have them? I suppose they did their job, providing something different and making us salty they don't match what we think (granted we can't often agree about how we think things will go). In theory they're supposed to give a reasonable guess of what's to come, but even if it's a really good guess, chances are it will look different enough from the final product that you can nitpick if you so choose. Seasons are long and weird with so many moving pieces. What makes a preseason projection particularly meaningful and not garbage?

(I guess I look at a computer ranking and when something is weird, I don't say, "Ah-HA, wrong." I ask why. And the why usually ends up being at least interesting)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on July 28, 2017, 04:18:24 PM
You know I love me some metrics, and while I don't have much love for BPI, I think this particular complaint is interesting and worth meditating on.

I'm assuming you're not earth-shatteringly mad at the Shockers (maybe you are), but I'll look at the Purdue and OSU things.

Purdue: They return just shy of 80 percent of their minutes. I think Biggie was damn good, but I also wouldn't be blown away if a super seasoned team could be that good or better. I saw UW get better without Alando Tucker. MSU took a slight step back when it lost Green, plus another two starters from his last team. It also stands to reason Purdue is over-ranked because BPI might not put enough emphasis on starz and too much on returning players (thus hurting one-and-done-reliant teams). Of course, fans might also put too much emphasis on the biggest names, but who knows?

OSU: This one seemed weird. OSU probably didn't move up in coach given their metric, lost a lot of the roster, isn't bringing in five-stars. But then I read closer, and they really should emphasize this: "One factor not considered in preseason BPI 1.0 is transfers." So that projection assumes OSU is returning seven rotation players and adding a pair of four-stars, losing only Thompson and Loving. If that was the case, a jump from the mid-60s to 30 is not all that illogical.

Now all this asks a larger question of metrics-based projections, what do we want from them? Do we want them to about reflect our preconceived narratives? Because if we do, why would we have them? I suppose they did their job, providing something different and making us salty they don't match what we think (granted we can't often agree about how we think things will go). In theory they're supposed to give a reasonable guess of what's to come, but even if it's a really good guess, chances are it will look different enough from the final product that you can nitpick if you so choose. Seasons are long and weird with so many moving pieces. What makes a preseason projection particularly meaningful and not garbage?

(I guess I look at a computer ranking and when something is weird, I don't say, "Ah-HA, wrong." I ask why. And the why usually ends up being at least interesting)
It was really the OSU thing that jumped out at me.  I don't want it to merely mirror back my preconceived notions.  This has MSU lower than pretty much anywhere else, and there I do want to see why, more out of curiosity and whether expectations need to be tempered.  But with the OSU thing, it jumped out as so oddly indefensible that I couldn't think of any sort of meaningful input that would result in OSU being vastly improved this year.

Does it give any insight as to why transfers don't count?  That seems like an odd and unnecessary thing to omit.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 28, 2017, 05:37:42 PM
They say transfers don't count... What about early entrants to the NBA? If they're assuming Biggie couldn't have transferred away, are they also assuming he didn't leave for the NBA?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on July 28, 2017, 09:11:14 PM
It was really the OSU thing that jumped out at me.  I don't want it to merely mirror back my preconceived notions.  This has MSU lower than pretty much anywhere else, and there I do want to see why, more out of curiosity and whether expectations need to be tempered.  But with the OSU thing, it jumped out as so oddly indefensible that I couldn't think of any sort of meaningful input that would result in OSU being vastly improved this year.

Does it give any insight as to why transfers don't count?  That seems like an odd and unnecessary thing to omit.

My bet would be the first version doesn't, but they are accounted for later once rosters are set. Transfers are a big headache for numerical projections. It might be as simple as not having the back end for rosters update until a certain point. But as I read it, those will factor in at some point, just not with the first one.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on July 28, 2017, 09:11:57 PM
They say transfers don't count... What about early entrants to the NBA? If they're assuming Biggie couldn't have transferred away, are they also assuming he didn't leave for the NBA?

Probably comes down to draft being a finite thing with an easy list, while transfers are more sprawling.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on July 30, 2017, 02:19:41 PM
Michigan raided Illinois State for its two new assistant coaches. DeAndre Haynes was a guard at Kent State in their heyday 10-15 years ago. Luke Yaklich is apparently a defensive-minded guy.... Obviously the timing wasn't ideal since it all happened in the aftermath of Matta's resignation, but I think it worked out okay, all things considered.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on July 31, 2017, 12:35:21 PM

....and the single play schedules have come out for the coming year.


....and yet AGAIN, Purdue and IU only play once (@IU).




....UN.....Bleeping.....Believable. :91:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on July 31, 2017, 12:37:36 PM
....and the single play schedules have come out for the coming year.


....and yet AGAIN, Purdue and IU only play once (@IU).




....UN.....Bleeping.....Believable. :91:
Ditto MSU-UM.

Per Twitter, since Maryland and Rutgers joined the Big Ten, they've played MSU more than UM has
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 31, 2017, 01:22:10 PM
Ditto MSU-UM.

Per Twitter, since Maryland and Rutgers joined the Big Ten, they've played MSU more than UM has

As you both know, this is a long-running complaint of mine.  It bothers me because I can't figure out the benefit of doing it.  There are things the conference does that we don't like but we KNOW they are doing it for money so at least we understand.  In this case, I can't figure out any benefit so it is just annoying!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 31, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
Purdue starting to gear up for the World University Games in Taipei, where they will be representing the USA.

This as well as Carsen Edwards' experience at the FIBA U19 games will help them transition to life after Biggie.

Originally it was going to be Purdue's 11 scholarship players and a forward from Missouri State to round out the 12-man roster, but an injury to that player ruled him out. So it'll be Purdue's 11 scholarship players (excluding Matt Haarms), and walk-on Grady Eifert.

Matt Haarms is unable to play for the team due to not being a US citizen.

I wish I was still in a job where I was traveling over to Taipei regularly... I would have set up a business trip coinciding with this tournament...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on August 16, 2017, 04:41:49 PM
Full conference schedule released today

MSU's is one of the weirdest I've seen.  6 of the first 9 at home, 6 of the last 9 road.  The only road games in that front half?  Rutgers, OSU and Illinois.  Mostly picked to be among the worst 4 in the conference.  Have to think it'll take Maryland, UM or Wisconsin upsetting MSU in Breslin to avoid being 9-0.

2nd half?  Trips to College Park, Bloomington, Iowa City, Minneapolis, Evanston and Madison.  5 of those 6 are tourney teams, and Assembly Hall is never a fun place to play.  Then you have Purdue as one of the only 3 home games.  Home against Illinois is the only thing close to a "breather."  Wouldn't be shocked to see MSU post a very misleading 3 game lead in the conference just to have it turn into a race.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on August 16, 2017, 04:45:08 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHYJKhOVwAAH7th.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on August 16, 2017, 04:47:02 PM
Ugh, and apparently Friday night games are now a thing.  Stupid.  Mix in the random early December games and the early tourney with a week off in between and this whole season is a cluster.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 16, 2017, 04:47:21 PM

Delany really screwed the pooch putting the tournament in NYC this season. Conference games on December 1 and 3?


F that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on August 16, 2017, 04:49:31 PM
Monday and Friday night games in the B1G.  Starting the conference schedule December first.  STUPID


Monday not so stupid just abnormal
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on August 16, 2017, 04:58:44 PM
MSU plays Wisconsin and Maryland in the same weekend.  Friday at home against Wisconsin, Sunday at Maryland.

Hell I'd rest some guys for that Maryland game, they'll be dead on their feet anyway.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 16, 2017, 05:03:56 PM
I remember watching "Big Monday" on ESecPN in the late 1980's. It featured Big Ten and Big East (I think) games. Mighta been Big 8 though, and not the BE.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 16, 2017, 05:07:48 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHYKBgIVwAEb0Yw.jpg:large)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on August 16, 2017, 05:11:02 PM
Only having to play 1 road game after February 8 is nice for a strong close, but you wonder how battle tested they'll be for the tourney.

Also seems like Wisconsin avoids any of the 2 games in 3 days stretches.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 16, 2017, 05:12:07 PM

And the rest of the slate..


10/22/2017 Red/White ScrimmageMadison, WIDetails                         
11/5/2017 UW-StoutMadison, WIDetails (exhibition)
11/10/2017 South Carolina StateMadison, WIDetails                         
11/12/2017 YaleMadison, WIDetails                         
11/16/2017 XavierMadison, WIDetails                         
2017 Hall of Fame Classic (http://www.sprintcenter.com/events/detail/hall-of-fame-classic)
11/20/2017 BaylorKansas City, KS8:30 PM     Details                         
11/21/2017 Creighton/UCLAKansas City, KSTBD     Details                       
11/24/2017 MilwaukeeMadison, WIDetails                         
11/27/2017 VirginiaCharlottesville, VADetails                         
(conf games)
12/6/2017 TemplePhiladelphia, PADetails                         
12/9/2017 MarquetteMadison, WIDetails                         
12/13/2017 Western KentuckyMadison, WIDetails                         
12/23/2017 Green BayMadison, WIDetails                         
12/27/2017 Chicago StateMadison, WIDetails                         
12/30/2017 UMass LowellMadison, WIDetails
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on August 16, 2017, 05:40:13 PM
Here's Michigan's full schedule:
http://www.umhoops.com/2017/08/16/big-ten-announces-2017-18-conference-schedule/

My early prediction is 21-10 (11-7).

Hopefully the Monday night conference games is a one-year thing to allow for a condensed schedule as a result of playing the tournament in NYC.

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on August 16, 2017, 05:47:37 PM
Here's Michigan's full schedule:
http://www.umhoops.com/2017/08/16/big-ten-announces-2017-18-conference-schedule/

My early prediction is 21-10 (11-7).

Hopefully the Monday night conference games is a one-year thing to allow for a condensed schedule as a result of playing the tournament in NYC.


I can live with the Monday nights if they get rid of Friday night.  Particularly the Friday-Sunday turnarounds.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on August 22, 2017, 04:00:50 PM
Big Ten programs are preparing for a 20-game league schedule in 2018-2019 season


https://www.fanragsports.com/news/rothstein-big-ten-programs-preparing-20-game-league-schedule/ (https://www.fanragsports.com/news/rothstein-big-ten-programs-preparing-20-game-league-schedule/)

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 22, 2017, 05:07:44 PM
Big Ten programs are preparing for a 20-game league schedule in 2018-2019 season


https://www.fanragsports.com/news/rothstein-big-ten-programs-preparing-20-game-league-schedule/ (https://www.fanragsports.com/news/rothstein-big-ten-programs-preparing-20-game-league-schedule/)


Didn't we already hear this and discuss it on the old board?


Anyway, I'm in favor! 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 22, 2017, 05:15:56 PM
I just noticed this so I have to comment:


Over on ELA's football predictions thread (http://www.cfb51.com/index.php?topic=238.90) he has Ohio State and Wisconsin playing in the B1GCG in Indianapolis at 8pm on Saturday, December 2. 


Now I just came here to see that the B1G has Ohio State playing a Basketball game against the Badgers in Madison on the same day.  I can't see how this could possibly be a good thing.  Even if my team isn't in the B1GCG, I'll still be more interested in the B1GCG on December 1 than in some early BB game.  It just seems silly to me to effectively compete against yourself for ratings. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on August 22, 2017, 05:17:13 PM
Oh...probably, I'm forgetful


Didn't we already hear this and discuss it on the old board?


Anyway, I'm in favor! 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 22, 2017, 05:45:29 PM
I just noticed this so I have to comment:


Over on ELA's football predictions thread (http://www.cfb51.com/index.php?topic=238.90) he has Ohio State and Wisconsin playing in the B1GCG in Indianapolis at 8pm on Saturday, December 2. 


Now I just came here to see that the B1G has Ohio State playing a Basketball game against the Badgers in Madison on the same day.  I can't see how this could possibly be a good thing.  Even if my team isn't in the B1GCG, I'll still be more interested in the B1GCG on December 1 than in some early BB game.  It just seems silly to me to effectively compete against yourself for ratings. 

Well, they may play earlier in the day. I didn't see a time listed for the BB game. A lot of weekend games occur earlier. Especially if the seasons are working out such that it will be a likely conflict, the networks who get the BB game might deliberately avoid the conflict because they know the ratings would suck.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 22, 2017, 05:48:03 PM
I watched the Badgers play Oklahoma when I was in Indy last year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 22, 2017, 05:49:42 PM
Well, they may play earlier in the day. I didn't see a time listed for the BB game. A lot of weekend games occur earlier. Especially if the seasons are working out such that it will be a likely conflict, the networks who get the BB game might deliberately avoid the conflict because they know the ratings would suck.
I guess, at least in theory, that the BB game might actually get better ratings if you scheduled it as a lead-in.  Ie, the B1GCG is scheduled for 8pm so if either Ohio State or Wisconsin is in it, they could set the BB game for 5 or 6 and I imagine that a lot of B1GCG game-watch parties would have it on as the pregame entertainment. 

I think, however, that it would be a lot more popular pregame entertainment in Wisconsin than in Ohio because I'm not expecting much from Ohio State's BB team this year. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 22, 2017, 05:54:57 PM
Looks like Purdue is @ Maryland on 12/1 and vs Northwestern on 12/3, so neither conflict with the CCGs... Looks like it'll be a good weekend for sports!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on August 22, 2017, 05:56:46 PM
Yeah I remember being there in 2011, and a lot of Badger fans were watching their early afternoon basketball game against Marquette, so that was a pretty big game.

But with the Big Ten games, yes, you run a higher risk of playing a meaningful basketball game.  I think MSU played some creampuff during the afternoon the day of the 2015 CCG.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 22, 2017, 06:07:11 PM
Looks like Purdue is @ Maryland on 12/1 and vs Northwestern on 12/3, so neither conflict with the CCGs... Looks like it'll be a good weekend for sports!
Cool. You won't have to worry about missing a Purdue hoops game while you're in Indy watching Purdue Foo... Nevermind.   :93:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 22, 2017, 07:27:49 PM
Cool. You won't have to worry about missing a Purdue hoops game while you're in Indy watching Purdue Foo... Nevermind.   :93:

Badge, you can't hurt me with your insults. Purdue's already done me dirty.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on August 23, 2017, 05:28:01 PM
Andre Wesson has some sort of undisclosed medical issue that might be career ending.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 24, 2017, 12:19:45 PM

Good to see the Big Ten represent on this list of coaches who do it the right way, as voted on by other coaches. From CBS:


Who is the high-major coach you genuinely believe does everything by the book and operates completely within the NCAA's rulebook?   
Rank                                      Coach                                      School                                      Vote percentage                                      
1.                                                     John Beilein                                       Michigan (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/MICH/michigan-wolverines)                                                     26.6 percent                                      
2.                                                     Mike Brey                                       Notre Dame (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/ND/notre-dame-fighting-irish)                                                     10.5 percent                                      
T3.                                                     Tony Bennett                                        Virginia (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/UVA/virginia-cavaliers)                                                     7.6 percent                                      
T3.                                                     Greg Gard                                       Wisconsin (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/WISC/wisconsin-badgers)                                                     7.6 percent                                      
5.                                                     Mark Few                                       Gonzaga (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/GONZAG/gonzaga-bulldogs)                                                     5.7 percent                                      
T6.                                                     Chris Holtmann                                       Ohio State (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/OHIOST/ohio-st-buckeyes)                                                     4.6 percent                                      
T6.                                                     Tom Izzo                                       Michigan State (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/MICHST/michigan-st-spartans)                                                     4.8 percent                                      
T6.                                                     Bruce Weber                                       Kansas State (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/KSTATE/kansas-st-wildcats)                                                     4.8 percent                                      
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 24, 2017, 01:11:39 PM
PurdUeSA is kicking some tail so far at the World University Games. In group play they're 4-0 with (I believe) 3 of 4 games scoring over 100 pts. One more game against Estonia where as long as Estonia doesn't beat USA by a margin of >=139 pts, they're basically a lock for the championship "tier", i.e. top 8 when they get to single elimination.

For Purdue, the good thing is that these games have had enough margin that they've been able to get the youngsters and JuCo players some minutes. I said before the WUG that I didn't want Purdue to ever jeopardize their chances at winning a gold medal just to give experience to guys who will need it come NCAA season, but I'm certainly happy that Purdue's been able to get those guys minutes without risking a loss.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on August 24, 2017, 02:04:29 PM
Good to see the Big Ten represent on this list of coaches who do it the right way, as voted on by other coaches. From CBS:


Who is the high-major coach you genuinely believe does everything by the book and operates completely within the NCAA's rulebook?   
Rank                                      Coach                                      School                                      Vote percentage                                      
1.                                                     John Beilein                                       Michigan (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/MICH/michigan-wolverines)                                                     26.6 percent                                      
2.                                                     Mike Brey                                       Notre Dame (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/ND/notre-dame-fighting-irish)                                                     10.5 percent                                      
T3.                                                     Tony Bennett                                        Virginia (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/UVA/virginia-cavaliers)                                                     7.6 percent                                      
T3.                                                     Greg Gard                                       Wisconsin (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/WISC/wisconsin-badgers)                                                     7.6 percent                                      
5.                                                     Mark Few                                       Gonzaga (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/GONZAG/gonzaga-bulldogs)                                                     5.7 percent                                      
T6.                                                     Chris Holtmann                                       Ohio State (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/OHIOST/ohio-st-buckeyes)                                                     4.6 percent                                      
T6.                                                     Tom Izzo                                       Michigan State (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/MICHST/michigan-st-spartans)                                                     4.8 percent                                      
T6.                                                     Bruce Weber                                       Kansas State (https://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/KSTATE/kansas-st-wildcats)                                                     4.8 percent                                      
I think it's more or less a vote of which coaches consistently win big without getting comparable recruiting results.  Obviously UM and UW don't have a ton of blue chippers.  MSU has more, particularly very recently, but considering a lot would consider them a basketball "helmet" they rarely pull in at that level.  I think until Miles Bridges they had 2 McD AAs in the previous 13 years since SHannon Brown in 2003.  Kentucky, Duke, Louisville, Kansas, UNC, have at least that many every year.  The few the do get are usually in state, or at least Indiana or Ohio.  I can't think of the last major recruit they got from outside MI or any bordering state (WI, IN, OH).  Chris Allen in like 2008?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on August 29, 2017, 08:47:59 AM
Jud Heathcote passes away at 90
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 29, 2017, 12:20:56 PM
Representing USA at the World University Games, Purdue took home the Silver medal.

Notable for the team was that PF/C Jacquil Taylor, who is in his 4th year in the program as a redshirt Jr but has battled injuries every year, was a standout as a backup to Isaac Haas. He looks to be long, rangy, great at blocking shots and a terror on the boards. Still working on the offensive game, but at least looks like a serviceable backup.

The rest of the newcomers (minus Matt Haarms, who was ineligible as a Dutch citizen) got some valuable minutes during group play when Purdue was destroying opponents, but Painter tightened the lineup once they got to elimination play. As expected, Nojel Eastern looks like he'll get some solid PT, but beyond him we'll have to see how they can develop in practice.

Either way, while I'm disappointed the team couldn't bring home Gold for the USA, I think they represented themselves and the country well, and everyone came out of it healthy and with some players getting real competition minutes, so I'm happy for the team. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on August 31, 2017, 06:46:48 PM
Minnesota sophomore F Eric Curry tore his ACL and MCL and will miss the upcoming season.

Averaged 5.5 ppg and 5.2 rpg in 20 mpg as a freshman last season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 07, 2017, 03:16:34 PM
Dag, a midnight tip? 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJJIYI4VYAAdk6H.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 11, 2017, 01:07:06 PM
MSU seemingly rounds out their 2018 class with 3* SF Aaron Henry from Indiana.

Chose MSU over Indiana, Xavier, UConn and OSU.

Pretty solid offer list for a kid ranked #154 in the composite rankings right now.

Very intrigued by MSU's 2018 class.  Seems to be full of four year kids.  It's currently ranked as the #3 class in the country, because it's 5 deep.  But only one (#65 Marcus Bingham) is ranked in the composite top 100.  PG Foster Loyer is the one most people who follow this sort of thing can't believe isn't higher.

The other upside is Thomas Kithier transferring to Clarkston means he'll spend his senior year playing with his future PG in Loyer.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 11, 2017, 01:09:21 PM
MSU seemingly rounds out their 2018 class with 3* SF Aaron Henry from Indiana.

Chose MSU over Indiana, Xavier, UConn and OSU.

Pretty solid offer list for a kid ranked #154 in the composite rankings right now.

Very intrigued by MSU's 2018 class.  Seems to be full of four year kids.  It's currently ranked as the #3 class in the country, because it's 5 deep.  But only one (#65 Marcus Bingham) is ranked in the composite top 100.  PG Foster Loyer is the one most people who follow this sort of thing can't believe isn't higher.

The other upside is Thomas Kithier transferring to Clarkston means he'll spend his senior year playing with his future PG in Loyer.
Also will be interesting to follow the career of Talen Horton-Tucker.  Seems like MSU had one schollie left and it came down to these to similarish players as to who got the offer.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on September 18, 2017, 02:50:07 PM
Drake Harris is joining the basketball team. He was a top 100 recruit in high school and committed to Michigan State for both sports, originally. This makes sense because even if he doesn't end up making the rotation, he can still be a graduate transfer after this season. At worst, he's a useful practice player and provides more competition at the 2/3 guard spots behind Abdur-Rahkman, and if he does manage to break in the rotation and play well, he could end up being a starter next year (not that I expect this to happen, of course).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on September 18, 2017, 03:08:48 PM
Not directly B1G related, but interesting nonetheless,  today Butler announced that it will sell beer at all Men's/Women's basketball games at Hinkle Fieldhouse.      Hinkle is great by the way.

I'm not sure where the B1G is on selling beer at hoops games (outside the suites).  We know beer is sold at some football venues. (Purdue and Minnesota come to mind).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 18, 2017, 03:45:29 PM
Drake Harris is joining the basketball team. He was a top 100 recruit in high school and committed to Michigan State for both sports, originally. This makes sense because even if he doesn't end up making the rotation, he can still be a graduate transfer after this season. At worst, he's a useful practice player and provides more competition at the 2/3 guard spots behind Abdur-Rahkman, and if he does manage to break in the rotation and play well, he could end up being a starter next year (not that I expect this to happen, of course).
Might as well get the full college experience and sit on as many benches in Ann Arbor as possible.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on September 18, 2017, 04:30:25 PM
Might as well get the full college experience and sit on as many benches in Ann Arbor as possible.
LOL
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: nuwildcat on September 18, 2017, 06:19:26 PM
Kinda excited 'cuz da 'Cats will face the Blue Demons @ Depaul's new arena near McCormick Place

- looking forward to attending that contest in mid-December

It's a hell of a lot closer than Allstate Arena in Rosemont, IL (aka 'TheBoonies, USA'), where our "home" games will be played while Welsh-Ryan is renovated ~???
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 21, 2017, 09:38:57 AM
Also will be interesting to follow the career of Talen Horton-Tucker.  Seems like MSU had one schollie left and it came down to these to similarish players as to who got the offer.
And now it seems like Michigan may be his leader.
We'll see, but I think this might be a decision that bites Izzo.
There were some rumors about the teammate aspect of Horton-Tucker, but not any major red flags.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on September 21, 2017, 11:08:16 AM
Purdue picked up 3*/4* Emmanuel Dowuona yesterday.  He's a center out of Miami, FL. and had interest / offers from Louisville, Tennessee, and Clemson.  Louis King (5*) and Eric Hunter (3*/4*) are supposed to be announcing within a few days.  King is a long shot (likely Oregon), but odds look good for Hunter.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on September 22, 2017, 09:25:23 PM
Ignas Brazdeikis just committed to Michigan. He had offers from Vanderbilt, Florida, Baylor, Cincinnati, Oregon, Oklahoma, and Illinois, among others. Scouts say he's probably not a future pro, but good enough to be a major contributor rather quickly, as a 3/4 guy, which will be important to replace Duncan Robinson.

Michigan is now officially full for 2018, but given that several players are still being actively recruited, it appears the coaches either expect Wagner to go pro after this year and/or one or two players from the end of the bench to transfer, which I suspect will happen, as well.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on September 26, 2017, 10:25:28 AM
WSJ reporting this morning that several arrests will be made today in a probe of alleged bribery and kickbacks at several 'top tier' basketball programs. 

Executives at at least one apparel company are expected to be among those arrested today.    They are looking at whether coaches at schools have been paid by third parties in exchange for pressuring players to associate with certain brands.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on September 26, 2017, 10:33:04 AM
Arrests made in Bribery probe (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-26/u-s-announces-crackdown-on-kickbacks-in-college-basketball-j81mv20v)
 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-26/u-s-announces-crackdown-on-kickbacks-in-college-basketball-j81mv20v)


Here's more from Bloomberg.  Looks like a press conference set for noon today.   Chuck Person is the most notable named defendant at this time.    Former and current coaches from USC, USCe, oSu, and Arizona as well as a referee are named defendants in the three unsealed indictments.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on September 26, 2017, 11:00:09 AM
Eric Hunter commits to the Boilermakers.  Decent 3*/4* shooting guard with a lot of upside.

Also, HOLY CRAP!!!  Looking at the current (and yes, I know they will change, but for the moment.....) team rankings for 2018, 5 Big Ten teams in the top 10 (IU, MSU, MI, NW, OSU), 7 in the top 15 (MN, MA), and 9 in the top 25 (RU, PU).  Haven't seen that in a while and several Big Ten programs are still in the running for some of the uncommitted 5* guys.

Also, some potential big news coming out with fraud and corruption at several schools associated with Adidas concerning the paying of recruits to go to Adidas schools.  Arizona, Auburn, USC, and OkSU already having some assistant coaches arrested by the FBI.

This is something that could blow up pretty big.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 26, 2017, 11:07:50 AM
Auburn.. Bruce Pearl?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 26, 2017, 11:21:18 AM
This corruption thing is a major development for the future of basketball recruiting and the dirty world of top level AAU hoops
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 26, 2017, 11:26:49 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing the AAU go away. That would certainly help clean things up.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on September 26, 2017, 12:10:08 PM
Let me just say I'm just shocked that Louisville is implicated here.  Rick Pitino is clearly above all that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on September 26, 2017, 12:15:42 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKqTosGXUAIsIxf.jpg:large)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 26, 2017, 12:31:01 PM
Maybe this will finally spell the end for the scumbag? Man, he is so full of shit.. lucky my ass.

Jim Gatto, director of global sports marketing for basketball at Adidas, was among those arrested. He's accused of helping funnel approximately $100,000 to the family of an "All-American high school basketball player" to secure the prospect's commitment to a school Adidas sponsors. According to documents, the prospect committed in June. The only "All-American high school basketball player" who committed to a school Adidas sponsors in June is Brian Bowen. He's now enrolled at Louisville.

Louisville coach Rick Pitino was asked about Bowen's commitment in June.

"We got lucky on this one," Pitino said. "I had an AAU director call me and say, 'Would you be interested in a basketball player?' I said ... 'Yeah, I'd be really interested.' But [Bowen and his people] had to come in unofficially, pay for their hotels, pay for their meals. So we spent zero dollars recruiting a five-star athlete who I loved when I saw him play. In my 40-some-odd years of coaching, this is the luckiest I've been."
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on September 26, 2017, 12:31:44 PM
I'm thinking this might finally be the nail in Pitino's coffin.  The school is already on probation.  They have wiretaps of two Louisville coaches admitting that the payments need to be "low key" to avoid being caught.
Without Strippergate, it's possible that Pitino could have thrown the assistants under the bus and claimed he knew nothing about it.  He can indeed still pursue that route, but this is now squarely into "Institutional Lack of Control" because Ricky can't keep his assistants from breaking the rules.


Interesting.  I mentioned above about the current 2018 recruiting rankings.  USC and Arizona are at the top of the list.

MSU / Izzo looking good for backing off from Bowen.  Unless he can somehow pull off the patented Cam Newton "I had no idea my parents were doing this behind my back", his college career is in extreme jeopardy.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on September 26, 2017, 01:00:22 PM
I'm of the view that this matter (or behavior) is not at all limited to those identified in the indictment.  I would expect this activity to occur at a much broader scale. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 26, 2017, 01:13:01 PM
I'm of the view that this matter (or behavior) is not at all limited to those identified in the indictment.  I would expect this activity to occur at a much broader scale.  
I don't think to the tune of $100,000 payments
Are there $500 handshakes all over the place?  I assume so
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 26, 2017, 01:22:53 PM
And to be honest, it sounds like this is just the tip of the iceberg.

The AAU circuit and the shoe companies involved are all dirty.

Just wait til these guys start flipping on each other.

You have two different issues, the legal matters and the NCAA issues.  I don't think Louisville was implicated in anything illegal.  But in wiretapping the Adidas rep, they got a Louisville assistant involved in an NCAA violation.

I also wouldn't be surprised if you have some innocent coaches buried in this.  The Pitino trail is too long for anyone to think he is innocent, but if there is a deal in place between an assistant and a shoe rep and an AAU coach, I would buy that a head coach didn't know.

Now if it's a Bowen situation and a 5* recruit calls you (through his AAU "rep")out of the blue, after Signing Day, and says he wants to pay his own dime to come visit and commit, and that doesn't raise a red flag, you are being willfully ignorant.  But in other scenarios I could see how a coach would have no idea.

It does seem like if I were any Adidas school I would be really, really nervous right now.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on September 26, 2017, 01:42:19 PM
ELA is right.  This is two separate items.

The FBI is investigating criminal charges of fraud and corruption on a few specific coaches who took bribes.  In doing so, they got the Adidas finance guy to flip and that is the main source for all of these charges.  The FBI has the power to subpoena, and therefore they are able to get all the financial records.

If the FBI can then release all that information to the NCAA to process it, that's when we are going to see what schools are punished.  If that Adidas finance guy has the books for all the dealings with their contracted schools, this could literally affect dozens of big schools.  The NCAA would be forced to make some major overhauls.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on September 26, 2017, 01:49:29 PM
This is looking like College Basketball's version of Balco. It may very well change how we think about the last 10-20 years of many programs and will hopefully have a positive impact on the sport moving forward. It's interesting that the FBI, through its weight, subpoena power, and resources, has been able to connect all the dots through the stream from college coach > AAU teams > shoe company > agent / financial rep > recruits and their families.

With Adidas being caught in the middle of this I suspect the greatest risk resides to Adidas schools that have skirted the lines. I know its wrong to wish for a certain final outcome but I really hope the smoke becomes fire with Pitino. It wouldn't feel right if Roy Williams, Calipari, and Boeheim didn't find their demise through this as well. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 26, 2017, 02:01:42 PM
I like the Balco analogy.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on September 26, 2017, 03:01:24 PM
The other thing that should be noted is that while Adidas seems to be the center-point of this one due to who the FBI was able to flip, their are Nike school's (Ok State, Arizona) and USC that just flipped from Nike to US, and a long time UA school (Auburn) tied up in this.

Also Adidas guy was at Nike for a number of years before he recently jumped ship to Adidas.

I really hope he kept meticulous books over the years!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: GopherRock on September 26, 2017, 06:08:03 PM
I like the Balco analogy.
Not a bad analogy, but you better hope the outcome is different. That was one of the few high-profile defeats for the Federales.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 26, 2017, 06:33:02 PM
True, but it set baseball on its ear.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on September 26, 2017, 09:16:02 PM
Please dear God let Pitino go down in flames. I also would mind Coach K being flung in there as well even though there doesn't seem to be any mention of him or Duke. Once upon a time I really like coach K, but he's turned into a toolbox over the last decade.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 27, 2017, 08:07:32 AM
"These allegations come as a complete shock to me. If true, I agree with the U.S. Attorney's Office that these third-party schemes, initiated by a few bad actors, operated to commit a fraud on the impacted universities and their basketball programs, including the University of Louisville. Our fans and supporters deserve better and I am committed to taking whatever steps are needed to ensure those responsible are held accountable."


Ehhh, yeah right...

Look in the mirror Rick, you shitbag.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 27, 2017, 08:58:31 AM
Please dear God let Pitino go down in flames. I also would mind Coach K being flung in there as well even though there doesn't seem to be any mention of him or Duke. Once upon a time I really like coach K, but he's turned into a toolbox over the last decade.
I don't like K, but I don't think he's a cheater.
I just don't like how he holds the Duke program out, while now being every bit the 1b to Calipari's 1a as far as bringing in one and dones who never step foot in a classroom.  At least Cal owns what he is, and I can sort of respect that (not the cheating stuff, but the one and done program) but K is such a phony.
In retrospect the best thing to happen to Michigan basketball was Pitino's wife talking him out of that job.  Could you imagine Pitino on the heels of Fisher?  The program would have never recovered, death penalty stuff.  They missed on their fallback hire of Amaker, but then got it right with Beilein, a hell of a coach and a guy, and does it clean.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 27, 2017, 09:43:04 AM
I don't think anyone would be wise to say this coach or that coach "does it clean"

We have no idea how deep this goes. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 27, 2017, 09:45:11 AM
I don't think anyone would be wise to say this coach or that coach "does it clean"

We have no idea how deep this goes.
Even if Michigan is implicated I would need to see a lot more than they showed with Louisville to believe Beilein was involved.  Pitino has burned any shred of belief he should get.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on September 27, 2017, 09:46:54 AM
Some rumors on twitter that Pitino will be fired today
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 27, 2017, 10:24:06 AM
Even if Michigan is implicated I would need to see a lot more than they showed with Louisville to believe Beilein was involved.  Pitino has burned any shred of belief he should get.
Exactly this.

I trust Beilein. I trust Izzo. I trust Gard. Those guys do it right.

In fact, I think the B1G is pretty darn clean overall, except that kid up in the Twin Cities. I don't like his life mentor.

Which are the Adidas schools in the Big Ten now?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 27, 2017, 10:25:15 AM
Some rumors on twitter that Pitino will be fired today
After I read his statement (posted above) I was kinda thinking (hoping?) he would be done today.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: DevilFroggy on September 27, 2017, 10:47:22 AM
Not gonna lie I'm loving that uofa is also caught up in this. Schadenfreude is a hell of a drug.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on September 27, 2017, 11:16:09 AM
Exactly this.

I trust Beilein. I trust Izzo. I trust Gard. Those guys do it right.

In fact, I think the B1G is pretty darn clean overall, except that kid up in the Twin Cities. I don't like his life mentor.

Which are the Adidas schools in the Big Ten now?
I agree. I feel pretty darn good about the B1G. Heck most of the top coaches and programs in our conference have all but bailed on the Chicago market due to the AAU control and other ugly inner-workings.
Maybe I am too close living in the Twin Cities, and believe me, I cant stand his life mentor either. However, I get the sense he is doing it right, at the moment at least. Lil Pitino is always complimentary of his father and I think has a good relationship with him, but frequently mentions Billy Donovan as his career mentor. I dont know if thats a good or bad thing as I dont know enough about Donovan. 
If, after a year of success, you cant find back channels to secure 5 star in staters like Tyus's little brother and Gary Trent's kid, it gives me some sense of playing clean. Also, the new AD, left Syracuse after a very short stint. I have heard part of that was due to not feeling comfortable with Boeheim's span of control and behind the scenes dealings.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 27, 2017, 11:25:27 AM
Exactly this.

I trust Beilein. I trust Izzo. I trust Gard. Those guys do it right.

In fact, I think the B1G is pretty darn clean overall, except that kid up in the Twin Cities. I don't like his life mentor.

Which are the Adidas schools in the Big Ten now?
Nebraska for sure.  Although they released a statement saying they had heard nothing from the FBI or NCAA on the matter.

People took the opportunity to rib NU basketball online for not even being important enough for Adidas to try and cheat with them.

Indiana is obviously the marquee one (along with Kansas and UCLA nationally) as far as hoops go.

I think that might be it.

Michigan, Northwestern and Wisconsin were until recently I believe.  I don't know if it coincided with the time frame of the investigation though.

Not implicating those 5 schools obviously, just addressing the specific question.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 27, 2017, 11:26:02 AM
Louisville AD fired
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 27, 2017, 11:35:06 AM
Nike was mentioned in the report as well. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 27, 2017, 11:40:21 AM
Louisville AD fired
There's that tail wagging the dog thing.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on September 27, 2017, 11:41:37 AM
Pitino out as well, per sources.  Not official yet, but realllllllllly likely.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 27, 2017, 11:42:33 AM
Pitino out as well, per sources.  Not official yet, but realllllllllly likely.
He better be out. Otherwise he's got pictured of someone doing something.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on September 27, 2017, 11:59:57 AM
Exactly this.

I trust Beilein. I trust Izzo. I trust Gard. Those guys do it right.

In fact, I think the B1G is pretty darn clean overall, except that kid up in the Twin Cities. I don't like his life mentor.

Which are the Adidas schools in the Big Ten now?
Completely agree with this. I'd be shocked if any major programs in the B1G were intimately involved in this. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 27, 2017, 12:00:52 PM
Nah. That white suit is made of Teflon. Nothing ever sticks to that guy. 

All that pasta and not a single marinara stain? I mean, c'mon...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on September 27, 2017, 12:12:02 PM
Completely agree with this. I'd be shocked if any major programs in the B1G were intimately involved in this.
I wouldn't, and I don't understand why anyone would assume that this activity only involves Adidas schools.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on September 27, 2017, 12:17:22 PM
SI reporting Pitino is out but AD still there... maybe an older story

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/09/27/louisville-fbi-investigation-rick-pitino-brian-bowen
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 27, 2017, 12:18:32 PM
I wouldn't, and I don't understand why anyone would assume that this activity only involves Adidas schools.

Agreed. 
This thread feels like one of those "Pride comes before the fall" type deals. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 27, 2017, 12:25:05 PM
I wouldn't, and I don't understand why anyone would assume that this activity only involves Adidas schools.
I do not think, for even a minute, that this activity only involves Adidas schools.  The issue is that the NCAA doesn't have subpoena power and as far as we know so far, the FBI's investigation exclusively involves shady dealings by Adidas.  Thus, the current scandal seems likely to involve Adidas schools exclusively.  If it turns out that they also have an informant at Nike, UA, or Russell then that is a different story.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on September 27, 2017, 01:23:55 PM
I do not think, for even a minute, that this activity only involves Adidas schools.  The issue is that the NCAA doesn't have subpoena power and as far as we know so far, the FBI's investigation exclusively involves shady dealings by Adidas.  Thus, the current scandal seems likely to involve Adidas schools exclusively.  If it turns out that they also have an informant at Nike, UA, or Russell then that is a different story.  
Exactly. The informant is(was) an Adidas employee. Certainly someone could roll over and involve Nike & UA schools in a heartbeat. It's honestly too early to tell how far this goes. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on September 27, 2017, 01:31:40 PM
Nike was mentioned in the report as well.
Yes. The Adidas rep worked for Nike until recently. If you look at the schools implicated you have Under Armor, Nike, and Adidas schools all represented. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 27, 2017, 01:45:02 PM
I guess we'll see. The cases haven't really even been rolled out yet though.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on September 27, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
Completely agree with this. I'd be shocked if any major programs in the B1G were intimately involved in this.

I wouldn't, and I don't understand why anyone would assume that this activity only involves Adidas schools.


I do think the B1G has a well-deserved reputation for being somewhat clean, but I wouldn't be shocked to see that at least one program ends up tarnished in this. Recruiting is just too competitive for me to believe *everyone* in the conference is clean.

Given how much we as Purdue fans complain about Painter's recruiting misses, I can only hope that the fact that we've lost recruits to some of these other programs is evidence that we were playing clean while others were playing dirty. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on September 27, 2017, 03:35:51 PM
I do think the B1G has a well-deserved reputation for being somewhat clean, but I wouldn't be shocked to see that at least one program ends up tarnished in this. Recruiting is just too competitive for me to believe *everyone* in the conference is clean.

Given how much we as Purdue fans complain about Painter's recruiting misses, I can only hope that the fact that we've lost recruits to some of these other programs is evidence that we were playing clean while others were playing dirty.
One of the guys arrested was Underwood's too guy at Oklahoma State, so there's at least a tie.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 28, 2017, 07:40:57 AM
Yeah, the Underwood connection was all over Chicago radio yesterday.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 29, 2017, 08:43:27 AM
Not the worst weekend for the #1 recruit in the nation for 2019 to be visiting East Lansing on the heels of all of this.

Particularly considering the school everyone assumed was leading (Miami) might be facing some heat.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 29, 2017, 09:51:54 AM
Not the worst weekend for the #1 recruit in the nation for 2019 to be visiting East Lansing on the heels of all of this.

Particularly considering the school everyone assumed was leading (Miami) might be facing some heat.
Who is it? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on September 29, 2017, 12:43:01 PM
Who is it?
Vernon Carey.

I mean I don't see any way he goes to MSU.  Off the top of my head Josh Langford is the only big time recruit Izzo has ever gotten from outside the Big Ten footprint.  And honestly, Lucious and Shannon Brown are the only two I can think of from outside Michigan, Ohio, Indiana.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on September 29, 2017, 01:01:20 PM
Hasn't he made multiple visits to MSU now?  I wouldn't bet on it, but no way seems extreme.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on September 30, 2017, 12:46:11 AM
Taylor Currie decommitted from Michigan. He originally committed as a 2019 recruit and then decided he would graduate in 2018.

Meanwhile Michigan is getting a visit from Colin Castleton this weekend, who appears to be very similar to Moe Wagner. Illinois is his other top offer, where he has already visited. It's hard to say if/how interrelated these updates are. I think Currie still has an offer for 2019 (he would have likely just redshirted in 2018 if he enrolled then, anyway). Time will tell how this works out....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on October 01, 2017, 08:03:16 PM
Meanwhile Michigan is getting a visit from Colin Castleton this weekend, who appears to be very similar to Moe Wagner. Illinois is his other top offer, where he has already visited.
Castleton was a top Purdue target, but we stopped recruiting after Duwouna (sp?) committed as they were basically the same position for us and we only had one spot. Duwouna committed because he knew Castleton was about to take an official visit, and didn't want to lose his spot.
Granted, I don't follow recruiting enough to know exactly the pros and cons of each player, but thought people might be interested to know that Illinois wasn't exactly his only other top offer... Purdue was on him if Duwouna hadn't committed right before he was scheduled to visit.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on October 02, 2017, 11:03:10 PM
Michigan got a commitment from Adrien Nunez tonight. I knew he visited recently but didn't realize he had an offer until today. His other top offers were Penn State, Boston College, Texas A&M, Massachusetts, VCU, and Saint Joseph's, so he's been under the radar. Apparently he's a great shooter, though.

Michigan is still the favorite to land Castleton, who is supposed to commit soon, as well.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 03, 2017, 11:19:38 AM

Today, the Ohio State basketball team announced that they would be opening the 2018 and 2019 basketball seasons against the Cincinnati Bearcats. 



(https://i.imgur.com/K8an8M0.gif)




Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on October 04, 2017, 10:34:05 AM
Castleton to Michigan
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 04, 2017, 10:46:46 AM
Seems like an upgrade over Currie to me
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 04, 2017, 02:06:20 PM
An interesting case. After Coach Cal's postgame comments and the radio station sharing the refs personal information the scorned Big Blue basketball nation attacked the referee from all angles.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/10/04/youre-gonna-pay-kentucky-basketball-fans-trolled-and-threatened-referee-lawsuit-says/?utm_term=.8f4f42d569f3

I really wish Cal would go down with this shoe-gate episode as well. It doesn't feel right to see the Kentucky fans shooting off at Louisville, while trying to hold some moral high ground.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 06, 2017, 01:48:31 PM
Taylor Currie decommitted from Michigan. He originally committed as a 2019 recruit and then decided he would graduate in 2018.

Meanwhile Michigan is getting a visit from Colin Castleton this weekend, who appears to be very similar to Moe Wagner. Illinois is his other top offer, where he has already visited. It's hard to say if/how interrelated these updates are. I think Currie still has an offer for 2019 (he would have likely just redshirted in 2018 if he enrolled then, anyway). Time will tell how this works out....
Currie visiting Wisconsin
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 06, 2017, 02:57:32 PM
I wonder if they will offer. There is still a spot open for 2018, after they didn't get Hauser.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on October 06, 2017, 04:27:12 PM

I really wish Cal would go down with this shoe-gate episode as well. It doesn't feel right to see the Kentucky fans shooting off at Louisville, while trying to hold some moral high ground.

This sounds awfully familiar.  Don't we have two major parties that do this every day?  The absolute masters of whataboutisms?

It is indeed amusing though.


Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on October 07, 2017, 12:28:39 PM
Purdue F/C Jacquil Taylor again hobbled with a foot injury. Most of you probably don't know much about him, but I think this is his 4th year in the program as a RS Jr, as basically every season has been impacted with foot/ankle injuries. 

The supposed prognosis is that he should be back by November, so if all goes well--bearing in mind that has never happened for Jacquil--he'll be back in time for the season. But it's TBD.

He's a piece that Purdue was really hoping could produce given that Haas may not be able to handle 30 minutes a game. Taylor has a nose for rebounding (needed after Swanigan), is a HECK of a lot more athletic than Haas/Hammons/Swanigan were, but versatile enough to play stretch 4 or in the paint. So a full recovery would be nice.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2017, 05:21:35 PM
So 20 game Big Ten schedule, starting next year? 

Far out. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on October 17, 2017, 08:58:23 PM
2018 Tyler Herro has decomitted from Wisconsin
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 17, 2017, 08:59:09 PM
4* SG Tyler Herro from Milwaukee decommits from UW.  Just committed a month ago.  Weird.  Except in crootin these days, it's really not.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 17, 2017, 09:14:19 PM
4* SG Tyler Herro from Milwaukee decommits from UW.  Just committed a month ago.  Weird.  Except in crootin these days, it's really not.
Actually 247 doesn't specify year in their timeline, and that was the last event, so I assumed it was just this year, but he committed in September 2016.
Now seems like Kentucky, Kansas and UNC will get hard looks.  Swell of the guy.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on October 17, 2017, 10:10:01 PM
Not a fan of the move to 20 games. Unless the Big Ten eliminates byes in the conference schedule (ie. weekends and weeks where the teams don't play), there's no way to prevent conference play from starting before the weekend of/before New Year's Day, as it usually does (granted, with the BigTen's disappointing move to start scheduling Monday and Friday games, that might still be possible).

Two possible compromises I'd favor are to replace exhibition games with regular non-con games (and start the season on 11/1) and expand the games limit from 31 to 33 and/or move the NCAA tournament back a weekend (into April, not the other way). The first solution allows teams to still get sufficient guarantee games while allowing them to continue to schedule as many (or more) tough non-con games. The second prevents conference play from starting before NYD while still allowing teams to have at least 2 days rest between games.

Of course, much like my 13 game football season proposal, I don't expect any of this to happen.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 17, 2017, 11:29:49 PM
4* SG Tyler Herro from Milwaukee decommits from UW.  Just committed a month ago.  Weird.  Except in crootin these days, it's really not.
WTF?

I can't imagine why he'd do that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 18, 2017, 07:40:23 AM
Pretty good amount of speculation that he will end up at North Carolina. The thinking is he was waiting on the NCAA and now that they got off with nothing, he's available to be recruited.

There was this from him, only a few short weeks ago, after his visit:

In the midst of a huge scandal involving college basketball recruiting that's only reached the tip of the iceberg, Wisconsin commit (https://247sports.com/Player/Tyler-Herro-85253)Tyler Herro (https://247sports.com/Player/Tyler-Herro-85253) took to Twitter to make a statement for the Badgers.

Just in case you were concerned that UW might be dragged into in the mess that Louisville, Arizona, Auburn, Oklahoma State, USC, Miami (FL), and more to follow are currently caught up in, the four-star shooting guard says there's no worry.

Quote
My mood because I chose the right school. Feels good to be a part of a university that does things the right way?? pic.twitter.com/qedTFdyhkY (https://t.co/qedTFdyhkY)
(https://247sports.com/Player/Tyler-Herro-85253)Tyler Herro (https://247sports.com/Player/Tyler-Herro-85253) (@raf_tyler) September 27, 2017 (https://twitter.com/raf_tyler/status/913100927153848321)

 
Herro committed to Wisconsin last September. He chose the Badgers over Arizona, Florida, Marquette, Indiana, Purdue, Creighton, Xavier, and others.

The nation's No. 36 ranked player per the 247sports composite, Herro will be the fourth-highest rated prospect in program history, trailing only (https://247sports.com/Player/Brian-Butch-68236)Brian Butch (https://247sports.com/Player/Brian-Butch-68236), Sam Dekker (https://247sports.com/Player/Sam-Dekker-2164), and Joe Krabbehnoft.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 18, 2017, 12:37:16 PM
Starting to fall into place. Herro "blew up" this summer and lots of people have been in his dad's ear the past few weeks about how the kid could be a one-and-done and that UW isn't the place for that kind of player (it isn't).

Incidentally, his dad is a coach on the Wisconsin Playground Elite AAU team that he plays for. Not sure of what shoe company owns that outfit.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2017, 09:36:01 AM
It's official, 20 game schedule next season, with protected 2 play rivalries, being MSU-UM, Indiana-Purdue and Illinois-NW

http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/101917aab.html
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2017, 09:41:19 AM
Yuck

@kylebaustin
Jim Delany said Big Ten hopes to have an 80/20 split between Big Ten tourneys in the midwest and in the east
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 19, 2017, 10:04:17 AM
Illinois and Northwestern as a protected rivalry is kind of funny. 

They are on the opposite ends of the spectrum, with regards to basketball history.

Obviously they want to protect all three of the in-state rivalries. 

I like the 20 game schedule. Do any of the schools have more than 2 or 3 non-conference rivalries that they play every year? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2017, 10:39:46 AM
I like the 20 game schedule. Do any of the schools have more than 2 or 3 non-conference rivalries that they play every year?
I don't think any have more than 1, and most have none.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 19, 2017, 11:18:58 AM
I don't think any have more than 1, and most have none.
That's what I suspected. 
I would "like" to see OSU play Cincy, Xavier and Dayton every year. 
But the reality is that they rarely play any of those schools unless they have to. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2017, 11:34:42 AM
Yeah, UM and Duke played every year back in the 90s and early 2000s, but with the Big Ten-ACC Challenge, the fall of UM hoops, and Amaker not wanting to play K, that series went away.

MSU seems to play Oakland just about every year, but I don't have the evidence to back that up.  They oddly don't seem to play Directional MI in basketball all that often.  I think UM plays them more, particularly EMU.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on October 19, 2017, 11:55:49 AM
Illinois plays Missouri every year

I know Indiana and Kentucky stopped playing.  Who else has a regular non-conf rival?  I am having a hard time coming up with any of them
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2017, 11:56:32 AM
Illinois plays Missouri every year

I know Indiana and Kentucky stopped playing.  Who else has a regular non-conf rival?  I am having a hard time coming up with any of them
Those were the only two I could think of.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 19, 2017, 12:02:15 PM
Iowa and Iowa State? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on October 19, 2017, 12:31:09 PM
Ahem.
In addition to Marquette, UW often plays uwm  and GB
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2017, 12:41:32 PM
MSU opens at #2 in the coaches poll, Duke #1

http://sportspolls.usatoday.com/ncaa/basketball-men/polls/coaches-poll/

Minnesota at #15, Northwestern at #20 and Purdue at #21 are the other Big Ten teams.

Wisconsin, Maryland and Michigan all receiving votes
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 19, 2017, 01:04:24 PM
Do any of the newbs still play their old rivals? Maryland? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2017, 01:10:42 PM
MSU opens at #2 in the coaches poll, Duke #1

http://sportspolls.usatoday.com/ncaa/basketball-men/polls/coaches-poll/
With Kansas and Kentucky to follow, barring a major upset in the opening weekend, the Champions Classic in Chicago will be #1 Duke vs. #2 MSU and #3 Kansas vs. #4 Kentucky.  And nobody will care, because, tournament.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on October 19, 2017, 02:11:12 PM
Yuck

@kylebaustin
Jim Delany said Big Ten hopes to have an 80/20 split between Big Ten tourneys in the midwest and in the east
Agreed.  It would be bad enough once every ten years but once every five is just silly.  The only good thing is that I was actually concerned it was going to be more than once every five years.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on October 19, 2017, 02:55:45 PM
Those were the only two I could think of.
IU and Purdue have been doing the Crossroads Classic for many years now, usually with Butler and ND>
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on October 19, 2017, 04:53:55 PM

Obviously they want to protect all three of the in-state rivalries.

Actually, I doubt that. I think that was a cop-out that allowed them to protect Purdue/IU and UM/MSU without having to define protected rivalries for other teams. Since the only other in-state matchup is Illinois/NU, it was easy to add them, despite the fact that Illinois and NU are not really long-standing basketball rivals. 
They created an arbitrary criteria to protect the ones they wanted while maintaining a veneer of fairness by ensuring that criteria only really affected the ones they wanted to protect in the first place.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on October 19, 2017, 08:11:48 PM
Illinois is finally on the board in 2018.  5* star sure to be Illinois Mr. Basketball,  Ayo Dosunmu commited a few minutes ago 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on October 19, 2017, 10:09:51 PM
I don't get why Michigan is so underrated. Walton was good, but Simmons should be all-BigTen caliber, as well as a grad-transfer where he was all-MAC at Ohio and Matthews (the transfer from Kentucky) should be better than Irvin. Donnal wasn't that great, either, so one of the young big men should adequately replace him behind Wagner. I don't discount the loss of DJ Wilson, but his production is still replaceable.

Fortunately the schedule will let them prove themselves pretty quickly with the Maui Tournament, and non-con games @Texas, UCLA, and @North Carolina.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on October 19, 2017, 11:00:15 PM
Do any of the newbs still play their old rivals? Maryland?
Nebraska v Creighton is a fairly regular occurrence.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 20, 2017, 01:11:03 AM
Ahem.
In addition to Marquette, UW often plays uwm  and GB
I can't remember the last time UW and MU didn't play.

It was only a couple of years ago that they took GB and Milwaukee off the permanent rotation to open things up to other schools that would come for a one and done at the Kohl. GB and UWM always had return games to me recollection and UW no longer wanted that on a regular basis.
Title: Big Ten MBB officially going to 20 conference games
Post by: LittlePig on October 20, 2017, 10:13:32 AM
http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-baskbl/sp...17aab.html (http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/101917aab.html)

Starting in 2018-19, Big Ten men's basketball will go to 20 confetence games.

Only 3 protected rivals. Mich-MSU, Indy-Pur, ILL-NW

The three in-state rivalries – Illinois/Northwestern, Indiana/Purdue and Michigan/Michigan State – will be played twice annually, while the new schedule will also include a regional component to increase the frequency of games among teams in similar areas. Over the course of a six-year cycle (12 playing opportunities), in-state rivals will play each other 12 times, regional opponents will play 10 times, and all other teams will play nine times
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2017, 10:26:45 AM
Yeah, we've been discussing it in the basketball thread
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2017, 11:35:05 AM
Sounds like MSU is trying to put together a couple of scrimmages in NYC against Manhattan and Iona following the incredibly stupid week early MSG BTT, to avoid too much lag time between the conference and NCAA tourneys
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 20, 2017, 11:42:24 AM
That's a good idea. 

Is anyone else playing games that final week? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on October 20, 2017, 11:52:39 AM
Unrelated to the sort of post season scrimmages mentioned

Illinois will scrimmage Indiana State on Sunday and Vanderbilt on the 29th since there are no exhibition games this year
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2017, 12:16:33 PM
Unrelated to the sort of post season scrimmages mentioned

Illinois will scrimmage Indiana State on Sunday and Vanderbilt on the 29th since there are no exhibition games this year
Why isn't Illinois playing any exhibition games?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 20, 2017, 12:44:22 PM
OSU has an exhibition game against Wooster. That's pretty ridiculous. 

Typically it's against a team that is at least D2. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on October 20, 2017, 01:17:11 PM
I have no idea why
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ohio1317 on October 21, 2017, 08:42:21 AM
Big Ten has announced how they are going to do scheduling (kind of).  http://www.bigten.org/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/101917aab.html

Basically, they will lock in-state teams for home and homes every year.  They are also going to start "regional" based scheduling.  Over 6 years, in-state teams will play 12 times, "regional" teams 10 times, and everyone else 9 times.



I played through this on my own and tried to figure out how this would work and think I got it. The "regional opponents" are almost certainly going to be:
 Ohio State, Penn State, Maryland, and Rutgers.
 Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota

 -That makes sense for everyone except Ohio State who doesn't identify as an east coast school and has stronger history elsewhere, but I can see how they came to it even if not a fan of the grouping (OSU was simply odd man out).

 So the schedules look like this:
 Michigan/Michigan State/Illinois/Northwestern/Indiana/Purdue:
 -Home and home every year vs. instate team
 -Play home and home with other 12 schools every other year (with 6 extra games)

 Other 8 schools:
 -Start with a schedule of playing everyone home and home every other year outside of your "regional opponents" (10 teams, 15 games a year)
 -Will play 5 games vs. your "regional opponents" every year meaning a home and home with 2 of the 3 each year on a rotation basis (hence the 6 year cycle).

 On a personal level, I don't really like the regional grouping from an Ohio State fan perspective (I personally get most excited playing Michigan followed by Wisconsin and Indiana), but I like the 20 games a year in conference and think it works out well for everyone else there. It also still only amounts to one extra game vs. each of the 3 eastern schools over 6 year vs. anyone else and we still at least get everyone else more too. In short, not exactly what I was looking for, but I'll take it given how it makes sense for the other 13 schools and the 20 game schedule.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 21, 2017, 11:03:11 AM
Thanks for trying to wrap your brain around it.

I don't think OSU has a hoops rival. 

Indiana and Michigan would be the ones that OSU fans would point to, but obviously neither would be reciprocated as they both have in-state rivalries that are much more heated on the hardwood. 

Odd that the Mac is the only Conference with Divisions. CUSA used to have them, clear back when they were made up almost entirely of teams that are no longer in that Conference. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 21, 2017, 02:10:34 PM
I don't get why Michigan is so underrated. Walton was good, but Simmons should be all-BigTen caliber, as well as a grad-transfer where he was all-MAC at Ohio and Matthews (the transfer from Kentucky) should be better than Irvin. Donnal wasn't that great, either, so one of the young big men should adequately replace him behind Wagner. I don't discount the loss of DJ Wilson, but his production is still replaceable.

Fortunately the schedule will let them prove themselves pretty quickly with the Maui Tournament, and non-con games @Texas, UCLA, and @North Carolina.
Yeah, IMO it all comes down to Simmons.  Beilein's teams have fared how their point guard has fared.  If he is All-Big Ten caliber (I have no idea, although that seems a touch lofty) then Michigan is a no brainer top 20 team.  If he struggles, they may struggle just to get into the tourney.  I have to imagine they are going to get destroyed on the glass, but JB teams tend to do that, with little effect.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 23, 2017, 07:25:32 PM
MSU playing Georgia in a hurricane relief fundraiser on Sunday, in Grand Rapids.

So are these all charity loopholes that the NCAA doesn't want the bad PR of closing
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on October 30, 2017, 09:53:57 AM
Illinois reportedly lost by a few to Indiana St in a secret scrimmage last week and beat Vandy yesterday by 10.

Illinois will play an exhibition at Eastern Illinois with the proceeds going to disaster relief.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on October 30, 2017, 11:37:38 AM
Huskers beat the Cyclones in a closed scrimmage

but, a couple of the Clones didn't play because they are rumored to have upset the coach
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on October 31, 2017, 09:39:05 AM
Crap, seems like a national cover too.  Cursed

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNd-eidWAAEmKLV.jpg:large)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 31, 2017, 10:41:54 AM
Yeah, IMO it all comes down to Simmons.  Beilein's teams have fared how their point guard has fared.  If he is All-Big Ten caliber (I have no idea, although that seems a touch lofty) then Michigan is a no brainer top 20 team.  If he struggles, they may struggle just to get into the tourney.  I have to imagine they are going to get destroyed on the glass, but JB teams tend to do that, with little effect.
Nailed it. And I would add to it that it shows itself even more towards the end of the season. Walton, Burke, and Morris all had good seasons on years Michigan made runs, but they really elevated come Feb/March. They carried teams on their back. 
The lone exception where they made a run that I can think of was the year after Burke left. Walton was a freshman, and had a very underwhelming NCAA tournament. That was a Stauskas led team, with some heavy support from Glenn Robinson and Jordan Morgan. The lack of PG play hurt them in the regional final shootout against the Harrison brothers at Kentucky. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 01, 2017, 12:28:28 PM
MSU opens at #2 in the coaches poll, Duke #1

http://sportspolls.usatoday.com/ncaa/basketball-men/polls/coaches-poll/

Minnesota at #15, Northwestern at #20 and Purdue at #21 are the other Big Ten teams.

Wisconsin, Maryland and Michigan all receiving votes
Same in the AP Poll released today, Duke #1, MSU #2.  They play each other the 2nd game of the season.
Minnesota #15, Northwestern #19, Purdue #20
Wisconsin, Maryland and Michigan receiving votes
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 01, 2017, 03:39:09 PM
Junior Kyle Ahrens re-aggravated a foot injury, and sounds like he may just take a medical redshirt now.

Was finally going to be able to play his more natural position this year with the influx of bigs allowing him to play out on the wing, so I feel bad for him after suffering through a couple years of trying to fake it at the 4.

Averaged 2.6 ppg in 8 mpg last year, but shot 34% from 3, and was intrigued to see him out on the wing more this year.  He had a dunk in HS that made SC Top 10, and I believe participated in the HSAA dunk contest.  His younger brother will play for OSU next year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on November 02, 2017, 12:15:52 AM
UW picked up a commit from Taylor Currie

A 6-foot-8 stretch 4, he seems like a Michigan-style player and was committed to them until Sept. 29. He reclassified and is super young, with a redshirt pending, but was a top-200 kid with a lot of potential. I like the pickup, even after losing an awesome guard in Herro.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on November 02, 2017, 12:31:15 AM
Michigan scrimmaged Toledo, and has an exhibition game on Friday night (unfortunately the same time as the hockey team plays Ferris State, where I'll be at).

Behind Wagner, it sounds like Teske is still the #2 center over Davis, but they have different strengths and weaknesses. Teske is better defensively but Davis is more skilled.

The forward position is my primary concern at this point. Robinson will probably be a starter initially, but the hope is that Livers emerges since he has more upside. 

Matthews will be the 3-guard and probably get most of the minutes there. Poole is focusing on that role, as well, as is Watson. I'll be happy if they combine to provide better offense and comparable defense than Irvin did.

Abdur-Rahkman remains the starting 2-guard. The question is if he's ready to be a bigger focal point of the offense. I think he can be, but I'm not sure if it will happen. He doesn't have a true backup, so I think he'll play the most minutes of anyone on the team.

And the 3-way competition at PG continues between Simpson, Simmons, and Brooks. I suspect we may see some 2-PG lineups against smaller teams, especially against bad guarantee game opponents, but not against better competition.

It will be interesting to see how the rotation shakes out....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 03, 2017, 02:43:01 PM
Bowen might be trying to pull a Cam Newton and wants eligibility reinstated because "my daddy's the one who took the money, I gots nut'tin to do with that."  The FBI has already cleared him (ie, they will not prosecute him).  Now it's up to the NCAA to see if they have a spine or not.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 03, 2017, 02:52:22 PM
Bowen might be trying to pull a Cam Newton and wants eligibility reinstated because "my daddy's the one who took the money, I gots nut'tin to do with that."  The FBI has already cleared him (ie, they will not prosecute him).  Now it's up to the NCAA to see if they have a spine or not.
I'm sure his teammates and the Louisville fans will embrace the kid who finally cost Pitino his job
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on November 03, 2017, 10:27:59 PM
Illinois collapses in the second half and loses pretty badly to Eastern Illinois in exhibition.  Underwood has his work cut out for him this season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 04, 2017, 02:08:33 PM
I hate reading too much into exhibition games.  MSU lost to GVSU one year, then went to the Final 4.  But after a blowout win over Hillsdale last night I'll say that Jackson is looking like the hype was deserved, but Langford is concerning.  The shallowest portion of the roster is the wing.  You onviously have Bridges, but then...?   McQuaid is a solid catch and shoot guy, but that's it.  Ahrens was expected to contribute 10 minutes a game, and he sounds done for the year.  Langford has to build on his growth from the end of last year, when he started showing flashes of why he was a McDonalds AA.  Instead he played terribly in all three exhibition games.

Have to figure it out quickly.  North Florida on Friday, but then #1 Duke in Game 2.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 06, 2017, 10:46:33 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN6TAzRXUAIO8Qw.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 06, 2017, 11:08:40 AM
Supposedly Purdue had a secret scrimmage against Wet Virginia yesterday and won by about 12 points.

I don't read much either into these scrimmages, but that is still somewhat of a good sign considering WVU is a top 15 team.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 06, 2017, 05:51:06 PM
Iowa F Nicholas Baer out 3-4 weeks with a broken finger.

Hawkeyes open with 4 cupcakes, then @VT (Nov. 28), PSU (Dec. 2), @Indiana (Dec. 4) and @Iowa State (Dec. 7).

Seems like that 4 games stretch is right around the time he'd be returning.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 06, 2017, 05:53:02 PM
Supposedly Purdue had a secret scrimmage against Wet Virginia yesterday and won by about 12 points.

I don't read much either into these scrimmages, but that is still somewhat of a good sign considering WVU is a top 15 team.
Yeah, I look more at player performance than team.  You never really know how the coaches deal with player rotations, and groupings that you may never see again.  That's why Langford is concerning to me.  Having Ferris State hang around for 30 minutes isn't.

Although Ferris opened at #9 in the D2 poll, and opened their season with wins against #5 and #6, so they look like a top 5 D2 school.  No clue where the top of D2 ranks against the bottom of D1, like we kind of do with the top of the FCS against the bottom of the FBS.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 06, 2017, 06:54:10 PM
Will be fun to watch this Maryland team grow. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 06, 2017, 07:25:58 PM
Supposedly Purdue had a secret scrimmage against Wet Virginia yesterday and won by about 12 points.

I don't read much either into these scrimmages, but that is still somewhat of a good sign considering WVU is a top 15 team.
Allegedly OSU beat Xavier in a secret scrimmage. 
I have to believe that the rumors are true, otherwise the Xavier players would be denying the humiliating defeat from the hill tops. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 08, 2017, 09:55:40 AM
Nice to see someone of Knight's stature actually taking Wooden to task for what everyone knew was going on

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21336574/bob-knight-criticizes-john-wooden-ucla-bruins-recruiting-practices
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 08, 2017, 10:00:04 AM
Nice to see someone of Knight's stature actually taking Wooden to task for what everyone knew was going on

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/21336574/bob-knight-criticizes-john-wooden-ucla-bruins-recruiting-practices
I wish more people would come out and say it. Alcindor made more at UCLA than he did in Milwaukee. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 10, 2017, 12:39:06 PM
...and so it begins.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 10, 2017, 12:44:57 PM
I posted this on the Purdue rivals board and it could possibly be discussed here as well.
I looked at Purdue's first 5 weeks schedule, and it's a lot tougher than we've seen in several years, especially if things go well in the Atlantis tournament. Based off of the preseason AP poll (with others receiving votes figured...)

 11/14 @ Marquette
 11/22 (N) Tennessee
 11/23 (N) #6 Villanova / NC St. / #3 Arizona
 11/24 (N) #3 Arizona / #43 SMU / UNI / etc (anyone in the field really)
 11/28 #16 Louisville
 12/1 @ #37 Maryland
 12/3 #19 Northwestern
 12/16 (N) #34 Butler

 There are a few cupcakes in there, but otherwise that is a pretty daunting first 5 weeks.

 Couple of addition notable items:

 Tennessee is ranked 43rd according to Pomeroy, so they are no slouch.
 Marquette is ranked 48th according to Pomeroy, and that is our third game of the year....on the road.
 All but two of these eight games above are either on the road or neutral sites.
 Louisville plays four total cupcakes before playing us on 11/28, with only one game from 11/22 until our game. We play three games from 11/22 to 11/28, with two of the three potentially against top 10 teams.

 I'm hoping for the best, but looking at this schedule, I think I'd be ecstatic with just getting to January 1 with only three losses.

This is kinda what MSU does every year.  Has an impossible schedule, and they always tank a few, but then I think it really helps them come tourney time.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: nuwildcat on November 10, 2017, 03:14:21 PM
insidenu staff's 2017-18 predictions for the 'Cats

- everyone thinks we'll qualify for the Tourney again

... while 2 optimistic dudes have us reaching the Elite 8(!) once we're there  :smiley_confused1:

https://www.insidenu.com/2017/11/10/16631434/northwestern-basketball-2017-18-season-predictions-chris-collins-wildcats-ncaa-tournament-preview
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 10, 2017, 03:49:32 PM
Citadel vs. Oglethorpe Half-time score:  70 to 37.

I think we can safely call that one already.  :)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on November 10, 2017, 08:32:08 PM
Indiana getting blown out at home by Indiana State
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: nuwildcat on November 10, 2017, 11:10:40 PM
well, that wasn't fun

.... NU plays like crap in the 2nd half and barely wins over Loyola (MD), 79-75 ~???
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 10, 2017, 11:50:21 PM
Indiana getting blown out at home by Indiana State
:86:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on November 11, 2017, 07:45:32 AM
Illinois hangs a 102 on Southern and beats them by nearly 50.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on November 11, 2017, 08:10:02 AM
Buckeyes win against Robert Morris by a bundle.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 11, 2017, 08:58:57 AM
I wonder what Archie Miller is thinking.

Is Indiana State really good, or is IU really bad?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 11, 2017, 10:47:33 AM
Illinois hangs a 102 on Southern and beats them by nearly 50.
The SWAC and MEAC have gotten exponentially worse in the last 15 years it seems like
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 11, 2017, 10:50:26 AM
Buckeyes win against Robert Morris by a bundle.  
RMU hasn't been quite the same the last couple years, but overall they've been a decent low major for a decade now.  That margin was legitimately eye opening
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 11, 2017, 10:52:38 AM
Wonder how much UNF made to play MSU and UM on back to back nights.  Considering how meh they looked last night, what are they going to have in the tank for the back end of a back to back?  Hell, good NBA teams look rough on back ends of those.

If that isn't enough, they get a day off before playing VCU, and then Florida on Thursday
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 11, 2017, 11:57:03 AM
Maryland is so young, but LOOK better from a physicality stand point.

Morsell is physically better than Melo was as a freshman, but still looks raw and inexperienced.

Justin Jackson will be very tough for teams to match up with. He was a rebounding machine last night and can get his own score when he wants and obviously can shoot it from outside.

Cowan just needs to run the offense but he can slash to the basket quickly when he has a chance.

Fernando is a giant inside and can run the floor. So is Cekovsky.

The Duke transfer is big and can block shots and rebound.

This is definitely a better rebounding team than last year.

If it weren't for all the youth I would be very high on this team. It all depends on how Morsell develops throughout the year.

Nickens is still trash.

Wiley should contribute more.

I would say that we're probably better defensively than offensively.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on November 12, 2017, 12:52:04 AM
Didn't see the Michigan - North Florida game since I was at Maryland and it wasn't televised, anyway, but from what I can tell from coverage from UMHoops, it appears that the defense is concerning, particularly against 3s, but the offense emerged late, while the team also dominated in terms of turnovers and to a lesser extent, defensive rebounding. Apparently, Teske even scored a 3, so I'll be watching out for that.

Central Michigan is on Monday, which will be on the BTN. The Chippewas are probably still a mid-level MAC team, but we'll see.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 12, 2017, 03:10:55 PM
Didn't see the Michigan - North Florida game since I was at Maryland and it wasn't televised, anyway, but from what I can tell from coverage from UMHoops, it appears that the defense is concerning, particularly against 3s, but the offense emerged late, while the team also dominated in terms of turnovers and to a lesser extent, defensive rebounding. Apparently, Teske even scored a 3, so I'll be watching out for that.

Central Michigan is on Monday, which will be on the BTN. The Chippewas are probably still a mid-level MAC team, but we'll see.
I'm sure you enjoyed the game, but I hope you had a good experience as well. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 12, 2017, 03:51:49 PM
Didn't see the Michigan - North Florida game since I was at Maryland and it wasn't televised, anyway, but from what I can tell from coverage from UMHoops, it appears that the defense is concerning, particularly against 3s, but the offense emerged late, while the team also dominated in terms of turnovers and to a lesser extent, defensive rebounding. Apparently, Teske even scored a 3, so I'll be watching out for that.

Central Michigan is on Monday, which will be on the BTN. The Chippewas are probably still a mid-level MAC team, but we'll see.
A lot worse without Marcus Keene, who led D1 in scoring at over 30 ppg last year, and the inexplicably went pro, even though everyone knew he wasn't an NBA player.  Went undrafted, now playing in Europe
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on November 12, 2017, 10:19:16 PM
Illini blow a 16 point lead to Tennessee Martin and squeak out a win.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 13, 2017, 09:12:09 AM
2018 Tyler Herro has decomitted from Wisconsin
Calipari was at his school and offered. Sounds like UK is a done deal for the kid.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 13, 2017, 12:53:03 PM
Not that the scores mean anything given the competition, but at least Purdue hasn't shown signs of struggling in the early tune-up games, putting up over 100 points both times. 

First real test is tomorrow, @Marquette.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 13, 2017, 02:05:39 PM
UW is 2-0 and has looked pretty good getting there. Not sure if S Carolina St is any good but Yale is supposed to be pretty decent. 

Up next is Xavier, followed by Baylor. We will learn a little more about the young Badgers over the course of the next week.

The Badgers are very young - no seniors on the roster this season.

The starters (for now) are Iverson (jr), Trice (so), Van Vilet (jr), Happ (jr) and Pritzl (so), with a bunch of really young kids behind them.

2017-18 Men's Basketball Roster  * walk on
No.ImageNamePos.Ht.Wt.YearHometown
0 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image001.jpg&hash=b985eac5fa43ffb1f7d5c3921f884b29)D'Mitrik Trice(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image002.png&hash=0d4881cf18c8ef09c6ef524a909c2b79) (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5153&path=mbball) G6-0177So. Huber Heights, Ohio
1 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image003.jpg&hash=725c37dfd12410f7df868f1e00a8161a)Brevin Pritzl(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image002.png&hash=0d4881cf18c8ef09c6ef524a909c2b79) (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5150&path=mbball) G6-3197R-So. De Pere, Wis.
2 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image004.jpg&hash=d12ccfb52982292847dccdbb9f94c9f5)Aleem Ford(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image002.png&hash=0d4881cf18c8ef09c6ef524a909c2b79) (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5145&path=mbball) F6-8215R-Fr. Lawrenceville, Ga.
3 *(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image005.jpg&hash=4caa7c49c4f508f2645452f0f485b832)Walt McGrory (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5194&path=mbball) G6-3210Fr. Minneapolis, Minn.
4 *(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image006.jpg&hash=feaa17a6a4f54267c1888a57457f87ea)Matt Ferris (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5144&path=mbball) G6-6205R-Jr. Appleton, Wis.
5 *(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image007.jpg&hash=4656dbc43f4a4d48b42cb037fd21ea1b)Aaron Moesch(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image002.png&hash=0d4881cf18c8ef09c6ef524a909c2b79) (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5149&path=mbball) F6-8220R-Sr. Green Bay, Wis.
11 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image008.jpg&hash=b55e7eaacf0adc25f5b32cdf6f38bec7)Andy Van Vliet(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image002.png&hash=0d4881cf18c8ef09c6ef524a909c2b79) (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5154&path=mbball) F7-0228Jr. Antwerp, Belgium
12 *(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image009.jpg&hash=fdcec96f68bd7131b4db6dc1e4a2de6b)Trevor Anderson (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5193&path=mbball) G6-2196So. Stevens Point, Wis.
15 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image010.jpg&hash=694492f7ff35b534097ee16b59bff3c5)Charles Thomas, IV (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5152&path=mbball) F6-8255Jr. Highland, Md.
20 *(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image011.jpg&hash=e7d079621aa3085b69fe2cb13b9edd97)T.J. Schlundt (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5151&path=mbball) G6-5197R-Jr. Oconomowoc, Wis.
21 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image012.jpg&hash=a036a8ced830942639652ab7b5a4f154)Khalil Iverson (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5148&path=mbball) G/F6-5210Jr. Delaware, Ohio
22 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image013.jpg&hash=524b964f4679fc26d8896cb2ef6cd9ce)Ethan Happ (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5146&path=mbball) F6-10235R-Jr. Milan, Ill.
23 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image014.jpg&hash=9c825995c155a68f085179009cc89ed7)Kobe King (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5157&path=mbball) G6-4203Fr. La Crosse, Wis.
25 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image015.jpg&hash=565ed123b8d4f6a909fab02441f14865)Alex Illikainen(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image002.png&hash=0d4881cf18c8ef09c6ef524a909c2b79) (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5147&path=mbball) F6-9231Jr. Grand Rapids, Minn.
31 *(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image016.jpg&hash=68ded33890c041462051cc1df0480e51)Michael Ballard (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5143&path=mbball) G6-4197R-Fr. Oak Park, Ill.
34 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image017.jpg&hash=687ca000c0f29a55b03a425a02f3ef92)Brad Davison (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5155&path=mbball) G6-3205Fr. Maple Grove, Minn.
35 (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffile%3A%2F%2F%2FC%3A%2FUsers%2FJMeier%2FAppData%2FLocal%2FTemp%2Fmsohtmlclip1%2F01%2Fclip_image018.jpg&hash=a37ff44d1ae2e8e8b3bac7e1b44bff06)Nate Reuvers (http://www.uwbadgers.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5156&path=mbball) F6-10215Fr. Lakeville, Minn.
 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on November 13, 2017, 11:50:00 PM
Watched the game tonight. The team is a work in progress, overall. The offense looked particularly disappointing, especially with so many missed open looks (10-34 from 3) and not trying to drive it even after CMU was in the bonus. Meanwhile, CMU had several lucky shots go in early to give them a lead for much of the first half. Much like how it sounded like the UNF game went, Michigan played better in the second half, particularly defensively.

Simpson looks better than expected at PG, but I was definitely expecting more from Simmons, considering he was 1st team all MAC last year. Apparently Eli Brooks is the third guy, now, at PG. The only other notable lineup issue was that Teske got all the backup center minutes and looked serviceable. I still haven't seen Austin Davis play meaningful minutes so I can't comment on him.

Central Michigan also looked decent in their own right..... Probably not a MAC contender but not a bottom-feeder, either.

Southern Mississippi is next, possibly the worst CUSA team, but we'll see. It's not televised so I won't be able to see it, though. Then the team goes to Maui....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 14, 2017, 07:44:02 PM
Battle of the floor slappers. 

Come on green. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 14, 2017, 10:14:45 PM
Battle of the floor slappers.

Come on green.
Is the ACC pissed at Maryland that they never give us Maryland-Duke in the Challenge.  The hate there is real.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on November 15, 2017, 02:01:43 AM


IU simply isn't good.  They didn't Dance last year and lost their 3 best players.

ISU was incredibly hot from 3, they are expected to finish in the Valley cellar.

As for 2 Big Ten teams I have thoroughly watched.  Don't hand over the crown to MSU just yet.  Purdue and Minn both look really good.  This 7'3" lanky dude we got from the Netherlands Matt Haarms has been such a nice surprise.  Great foot work and very soft touch by the basket with a sweet lefty.

And as has slowly moved from hypothesis to theory to scientific law, Wisc will finish 4th or higher.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 15, 2017, 02:37:15 AM
Is the ACC pissed at Maryland that they never give us Maryland-Duke in the Challenge.  The hate there is real.
No, that would be coach rat face.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2013/09/12/coach-k-we-wont-schedule-maryland/?utm_term=.54c30cb4a144

You don't "know" as much as you think you "know", but everyone who watched that game knows this.... 

Players from both teams were slapping the floor.

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery I guess.

I guess I've just always been "anti-douche bag", so if that's hate, so be it. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 15, 2017, 07:59:31 AM
No, that would be coach rat face.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2013/09/12/coach-k-we-wont-schedule-maryland/?utm_term=.54c30cb4a144

You don't "know" as much as you think you "know", but everyone who watched that game knows this....

Players from both teams were slapping the floor.

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery I guess.

I guess I've just always been "anti-douche bag", so if that's hate, so be it.
Huh?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 15, 2017, 08:50:39 AM
Calipari was at his school and offered. Sounds like UK is a done deal for the kid.
Done. Says his prayers let him to a blue blood. Praying to the devil, or what??
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 15, 2017, 04:17:06 PM
Does Maryland maintain any ACC rivalries? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on November 15, 2017, 09:18:41 PM
Does Maryland maintain any ACC rivalries?
Many ACC programs are still angry about the departure and won't have anything to do with Maryland.  Not sure how long that will last.  North Carolina seems to be the least resistant.  The two schools play each other in several sports now.  That's partly because they are both pretty good at a lot of the same non-revenue sports.  I think Virginia will be the next to mellow out.  Both fan bases want that, I think.  

MCWTERP is exactly right about Coach Krzyzewski.  I'm sure he'd deny it, as would Duke fans (of courrse, "not our rival"), but he seemed hurt and angry on a personal level from day 1 after Maryland left, and still is.

So no, not really...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 15, 2017, 10:38:40 PM
B1G scheduling is absolutely disgusting. 

I don't think I've ever seen a schedule where we didn't have back to back home games. 

Home, away, home, away..... 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 15, 2017, 10:43:54 PM
At least you have back to back road games. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on November 15, 2017, 11:01:19 PM
That's because 10 years ago or so there were a lot of complaints about having 3 consecutive road games (and/or opposing teams having 3 straight home games).... 

I'm more frustrated that the Big Ten gave into having Monday and Friday night games with the addition of Fox apparently being the reason (all of Michigan's BigTen games for those nights are on FS1, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong if that's not a coincidence).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 15, 2017, 11:13:47 PM
Yeah, the schedule this year is a disaster.  Everyone has problems.  I think MSU has like 7 of first 9 at home, then 7 of last 9 on the road.  Then a fun Friday night in Madison, followed by Sunday afternoon in College Park.  Nothing like road games against two good teams, 36 hours apart.  There is no more assured loss on the schedule than that game at Maryland on zero rest.

But yeah, it's the Friday and Monday games creating that problem, plus the moronic week early MSG to tourney.  It's awful, across the board.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on November 15, 2017, 11:19:14 PM
Yeah, the schedule this year is a disaster.  Everyone has problems.  I think MSU has like 7 of first 9 at home, then 7 of last 9 on the road.  Then a fun Friday night in Madison, followed by Sunday afternoon in College Park.  Nothing like road games against two good teams, 36 hours apart.  There is no more assured loss on the schedule than that game at Maryland on zero rest.

But yeah, it's the Friday and Monday games creating that problem, plus the moronic week early MSG to tourney.  It's awful, across the board.
/Does not enjoy the prospect of losing a slugfest to MSU only to see the loss lose value two days later.

Also, that game is in EL. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on November 15, 2017, 11:27:55 PM
On the UW side, I'm excited for this Xavier game. 

I don't really thing UW will win, but I vividly remember Creighton last year, when it started to dawn on me, "Oh boy, this team won't be as good as we hoped." This year's team has less pressure on that front. Play well and it's good. Pull off a win and it's gravy, plus a nice chip going forward. 

The other thing I want to see is the frontcourt rotation. UW's been able to go plenty deep in blowouts of small teams. This'll be different. It seems UW's No. 6 and 7 guys will be freshman guards, so I want to see if Aleem Ford continues to get eighth man work and how that balances with Charlie Thomas. Neither seems all that reliable, but I don't know if you just get 30 minutes from Happ and Andy Van Vliet, or if they can sneak Iverson at the 4. Should be fun to start learning that the next few games, even if some Ls might come. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 16, 2017, 12:06:49 AM
Many ACC programs are still angry about the departure and won't have anything to do with Maryland.  Not sure how long that will last.  North Carolina seems to be the least resistant.  The two schools play each other in several sports now.  That's partly because they are both pretty good at a lot of the same non-revenue sports.  I think Virginia will be the next to mellow out.  Both fan bases want that, I think.  

Huh. The two schools that a lot of B1G folks think might be on our radar for the next round of expansion...
...I mean, before NC because an academic joke of an institution.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on November 16, 2017, 01:25:13 AM
Central Arkansas almost had the upset of the season against UCLA in the aftermath of the their 3 players' (most notably Ball) stupidity in China. They don't have a non-con tournament this year, for whatever reason, and their best games before coming to Crisler are Creighton and Montana, so they still might be undefeated (and very overrated) by then.

The most notable upsets so far are Georgia Southern and Liberty over Wake Forest, Navy and Montana over Pittsburgh (maybe the Demon Deacons & Panthers are just that bad), Belmont over Vanderbilt, Milwaukee over Iowa State, UC Riverside over California, Eastern Washington over Stanford, and of course Indiana State over Indiana.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 16, 2017, 03:17:47 AM
At least you have back to back road games.
LOL
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 16, 2017, 08:19:38 AM
/Does not enjoy the prospect of losing a slugfest to MSU only to see the loss lose value two days later.

Also, that game is in EL.
Yup, that's right, the finale is at Wisconsin.
Somehow MSU has 3 home games in a row early and a pair of back to back road games late.  Another weird stretch is to go west to play Indiana and Iowa back to back, to come home for Purdue, to go back west to go back to back at Minnesota and Northwestern, come home for Illinois, then go back west to Madison.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 16, 2017, 08:22:58 AM
As for the game, I couldn't believe Maryland wasn't ranked, and they looked good last night.  Cowan I think scares me more than post-freshman year Trimble did.

Northwestern's defense was absolutely atrocious.  The number of uncontested drives Creighton got was frightening.  The almost weirder part was how cool the Wildcat players were with it.  Usually when you see assignments blown that badly, you see guys chirping at each other afterward trying to figure out who missed what.  Northwestern was almost like "nah, that's how we meant to defend that."
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 16, 2017, 09:29:30 AM
On the UW side, I'm excited for this Xavier game.

I don't really thing UW will win, but I vividly remember Creighton last year, when it started to dawn on me, "Oh boy, this team won't be as good as we hoped." This year's team has less pressure on that front. Play well and it's good. Pull off a win and it's gravy, plus a nice chip going forward.

The other thing I want to see is the frontcourt rotation. UW's been able to go plenty deep in blowouts of small teams. This'll be different. It seems UW's No. 6 and 7 guys will be freshman guards, so I want to see if Aleem Ford continues to get eighth man work and how that balances with Charlie Thomas. Neither seems all that reliable, but I don't know if you just get 30 minutes from Happ and Andy Van Vliet, or if they can sneak Iverson at the 4. Should be fun to start learning that the next few games, even if some Ls might come.
Xavier is point to last year's tourney for a revenge point. But only Happ returns from that team as a starter so I don't know how much revenge there will be other than the name on the front of the jerseys.

This game is big for the young Badgers. We will learn a whole lot tonight.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: rolltidefan on November 16, 2017, 12:25:03 PM
how is minnesota going to be this year? bama faces them in a couple weeks and we might have a decent team finally.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on November 16, 2017, 12:46:06 PM
how is minnesota going to be this year? bama faces them in a couple weeks and we might have a decent team finally.
I dont want to throw too much hyperbole out there, but if this conference didn't have the loaded and powerful Sparty team I think we would be hearing even heavier talk of the gophers for Elite Eight / Final Four mentions. They have the makeup of what you need. Experienced guard play, a couple slashers, and a couple bruisers. Lot's of athleticism among the starting five too. 
We'll have to see how Ricky matures as a coach now that he has a team that's the target. His game-planning and adjustments will be more under the microscope this season. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on November 16, 2017, 11:49:10 PM
UW lost a tough one. Badgers watches a go-ahead layup roll off the rim with 2:11. Then they
- Gave up a 3 on some good offense. If bounced high off the rim and in.
- A freshman got overexcited and attacked, maybe drawing uncalled contact
- UW all but forced a turnover and ended up allowing a scramble 3
- Missed a jumper

So by that point, it was six points with under a minute left and Xavier ball, so in essence over.

I'm not really mad. UW stuck with a good team, fighting back from a lot of deficits. Badgers have Happ, last year's sixth man and one edge of the rotation guy back from last year, plus two guys outside the top 8. The fight they showed with that much youth, I'll take it. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 17, 2017, 06:26:26 AM
UW lost a tough one. Badgers watches a go-ahead layup roll off the rim with 2:11. Then they
- Gave up a 3 on some good offense. If bounced high off the rim and in.
- A freshman got overexcited and attacked, maybe drawing uncalled contact
- UW all but forced a turnover and ended up allowing a scramble 3
- Missed a jumper

So by that point, it was six points with under a minute left and Xavier ball, so in essence over.

I'm not really mad. UW stuck with a good team, fighting back from a lot of deficits. Badgers have Happ, last year's sixth man and one edge of the rotation guy back from last year, plus two guys outside the top 8. The fight they showed with that much youth, I'll take it.
Mostly* overall, not bad.

* I said mostly. Trice was bad. You can't be 4-14 (1-5) and be good - he kept shooting and even forcing shots. Van Vliet is what he is. He's not a B1G player and probably won't be. All he has is tall.

Xavier was tough and was especially balls at the line. Shot 87 percent and 51 from the field. Also got far more rebounds. And they got their revenge.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 17, 2017, 06:36:07 AM
By the way.. this kid is a great player. He's also a dick.

Jp Macura‏Verified account @jpmacura 6h6 hours ago (https://twitter.com/jpmacura/status/931392481031344128) 


Great team win.. Roadkill

9:24 PM - 16 Nov 2017
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: GopherRock on November 17, 2017, 07:34:35 AM
Yup, re: Macura. He was a foul mouthed head case at Lakeville North, but he was a one man wrecking crew in the stretch of the 2014 Class 4A title game. Lakeville wiped out a 7 point deficit in the last minute to knock off the defending state champs from Hopkins. 

As for the foul shooting, any team that shoots 87% from the stripe is going to win a lot of ballgames. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 17, 2017, 10:45:12 AM
Does anyone know where I can find a list of B1G teams that each B1G team plays:
There are still 18 games and 13 teams for each to play so for each team there still should be:

Also, I noticed in looking at Ohio State's schedule that the Buckeyes have Minnesota in NYC at MSG.  Are other teams doing this as well?  Are they all or just a few?  

For Ohio State it is:
Home only:
Away only:
Home and away:

I will say one thing for the new schedule:  For once at least Ohio State doesn't have any sets of home/away games in a short time.  This has been a longstanding complaint of mine and they appear to have rectified it.  The closest one we have this year is Penn State in Columbus on 1/25 and three weeks later in State College on 2/15.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 17, 2017, 10:59:33 AM
Does anyone know where I can find a list of B1G teams that each B1G team plays:
  • home and away
  • home only
  • away only
There are still 18 games and 13 teams for each to play so for each team there still should be:
  • Four home only
  • Four away only
  • Five home and away
Nevermind, found it:  https://www.btpowerhouse.com/2017/8/1/16074578/big-ten-basketball-releases-2017-18-conference-matchups-opponents-schedule-indiana-purdue
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 17, 2017, 11:04:41 AM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?topic=153.msg19789#msg19789) on Fri Nov 17 2017 10:45:12 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Also, I noticed in looking at Ohio State's schedule that the Buckeyes have Minnesota in NYC at MSG.  Are other teams doing this as well?  Are they all or just a few?  

Yes, I think this is the third year of it.  They do a basketball/hockey doubleheader as MSG.  It would make some sense if it was the same schools for both games, but I guess that would leave the non-hockey schools out of ever *getting* to play a dumb basketball game in an empty arena?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 17, 2017, 11:07:35 AM
I know it is early but we have conference games in two weeks.  Any thoughts on tiers?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 17, 2017, 11:12:29 AM
Things I don't like about the B1G BB schedule:
I really don't get why they would fail to schedule instate (IU/PU, NU/ILL, and MSU/M) games once each.  Similarly, PSU, RU, and UMD are our eastern group and MN/UW/Iowa/UNL are our western group and it would make sense to me for those groups to play each other twice every year.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 17, 2017, 11:16:04 AM
Top Tier:  MSU, Minnesota, Purdue
Next Tier:  NW, Wisc, Maryland
Next Tier:  OSU, Mich, Iowa
Next Tier:  Illinois, PSU, Rut, Neb
Lowest Tier:  IU

BUT

We are still really early in the season and I have only seen a couple minutes of most teams except MSU, Purdue, and NW.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 17, 2017, 11:19:42 AM
Lowest Tier:  IU
I think you Purdue guys are enjoying that a little bit!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 17, 2017, 11:22:11 AM
An interesting article  (http://www.ncaa.com/news/basketball-men/article/2017-08-22/college-basketball-big-ten-releases-unprecedented-conference)on some of the odd quirks of scheduling this season.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 17, 2017, 11:28:06 AM
Things I don't like about the B1G BB schedule:
  • IU/PU only play once (at IU).  
  • UW only plays MN and Iowa once each.  
  • Maryland only plays Rutgers once.  
  • NU/ILL only play once (atNU).  
  • MSU/M only play once (atMSU).  
  • PSU/RU only play once (atPSU).  
  • Iowa/UNL only play once (atUNL).  
I really don't get why they would fail to schedule instate (IU/PU, NU/ILL, and MSU/M) games once each.  Similarly, PSU, RU, and UMD are our eastern group and MN/UW/Iowa/UNL are our western group and it would make sense to me for those groups to play each other twice every year.  
They are rectifying the in-state situation going forward.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 17, 2017, 12:31:46 PM
They are rectifying the in-state situation going forward.
Finally!
I did see that, but thank you.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 17, 2017, 12:35:19 PM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?topic=153.msg19789#msg19789) on Fri Nov 17 2017 10:45:12 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time)Yes, I think this is the third year of it.  They do a basketball/hockey doubleheader as MSG.  It would make some sense if it was the same schools for both games, but I guess that would leave the non-hockey schools out of ever *getting* to play a dumb basketball game in an empty arena?
My wife LOVES NYC so I actually briefly thought about going.  When I first looked at the date I was thinking that she and I might be off work on that Monday for MLK but alas, MLK is a week earlier.  
However, Ohio State plays at Rutgers the Sunday of MLK Day weekend so I think we are going to go to NYC and that game.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 17, 2017, 09:20:00 PM
Mark Smith's change of heart is going to haunt MSU for a while.  Kid is really, really good.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 18, 2017, 09:43:58 PM
Purdue clubs another baby seal.  Of note though, they set a record for most three pointers in a game (19).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: nuwildcat on November 19, 2017, 07:38:45 PM
wow, the overrated Wildcats really do suck .... damn .... ugh :'(
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 20, 2017, 08:06:29 AM
MSU puts away Stony Brook after a sluggish start, but the real story is Bridges leaving with an ankle injury.  Doesn't sound too bad, but I don't think he'll play in the tournament this weekend.

And...um...Northwestern...?  Losing by 40 to Texas Tech?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 20, 2017, 01:53:02 PM

Someone in the local media pointed out that Chris Holtmann is the voice twin of Les Miles, and he's right. 

You can't tell the difference. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2017, 02:08:36 PM
Another big game for UW tonight against #22 Baylor. Still a lot to learn about this team and I'm sure more answers will come tonight.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 20, 2017, 02:15:56 PM
Someone in the local media pointed out that Chris Holtmann is the voice twin of Les Miles, and he's right.

You can't tell the difference.
Crispin on BTN and that asshat media personality on ESPN who coached for a minute at IU are voice twins too.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 20, 2017, 03:31:13 PM
Iowa loses to UL Lafayette in the first round of their holiday tournament
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 20, 2017, 03:44:05 PM
I'm starting to think that this will not be a banner year for the Big Ten.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 20, 2017, 06:53:43 PM
Well, Maryland struggled the other night, and even though I expect issues with such a young team, it was the freshmen who came through in the second half to overcome a 15 point deficit. 

Bucknell shot 7-10 from 3, so I guess the law of average kicked in, but Morsel put pressure on the point guard, and diverted their game plan. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2017, 10:18:31 PM
Not looking good for Big Red tonight. Not seeing that signature defense we've all come to know and love (Badger fans, only, loved it).

Like I said, there is a lot to learn, and what I'm learning so far is that they are finally in danger of not finishing in the top 4 of this conference.

So far, so ugly.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 20, 2017, 11:03:51 PM
Not looking good for Big Red tonight. Not seeing that signature defense we've all come to know and love (Badger fans, only, loved it).

Like I said, there is a lot to learn, and what I'm learning so far is that they are finally in danger of not finishing in the top 4 of this conference.

So far, so ugly.
Not sure I would be worried yet.  Frankly, most of the Big Ten hasn't looked that great so far.  Sadly, this might end up being one of those years (again) where the Big Ten champ is going to get a 4 seed. :c002:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 20, 2017, 11:11:58 PM
....besides, it may not be over yet after all.

"WAS IT OVER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR!!!!!"
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on November 20, 2017, 11:53:08 PM
......Stupid Germans.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on November 21, 2017, 12:02:17 AM
Not looking good for Big Red tonight. Not seeing that signature defense we've all come to know and love (Badger fans, only, loved it).

Like I said, there is a lot to learn, and what I'm learning so far is that they are finally in danger of not finishing in the top 4 of this conference.

So far, so ugly.
Rallied back, lots of fight.
I'm thinking this group will round into form. They just gave mighty fights to top-25 teams. UW might come through non-conference with a so-so record, but the schedule is brutal. Get a 1-2 wins there and hold their own in conference, should be OK.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 21, 2017, 06:38:07 AM
I liked that they didn't quit. That bodes well for the future. Something is wrong with Trice though. Not liking what I'm seeing there so far.

Davison is a tough SOB who needs to play more.

On to UCLA tonight now.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on November 21, 2017, 08:02:15 AM
I liked that they didn't quit. That bodes well for the future. Something is wrong with Trice though. Not liking what I'm seeing there so far.

Davison is a tough SOB who needs to play more.

On to UCLA tonight now.
Trice is having trouble transitioning to the guy at the end of the clock. His size doesn't help, but Gard seems to have the faith in him Bo often had in guys. 
I'll quietly hope he goes the same was as one of the the last guys to find his way into being a lead guard despite some ugly early shooting. We had a couple that turned out OK.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 21, 2017, 02:50:47 PM
Michael Porter Jr. done for the year with back surgery.  Was the #1 overall recruit until Bagley reclassified from 2018 to 2017.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 21, 2017, 02:51:31 PM
Iowa loses to UL Lafayette in the first round of their holiday tournament
And follows that with a loss to South Dakota State in the consolation bracket.  Yikes
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on November 21, 2017, 03:25:54 PM
Michael Porter Jr. done for the year with back surgery.  Was the #1 overall recruit until Bagley reclassified from 2018 to 2017.


Too bad for the kid.  Have to imagine he enters the draft after this

Braggin' Rights game got a little easier for the Illini
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on November 21, 2017, 10:05:50 PM
It's a little early to be wondering that.  If Purdue wins Battle of Atlantis by beating Nova and Zona they'll jump to 6th or better in the country.

I do agree that outside of Minn, MSU, and Purdue the conference doesn't appear to be too formidable. 

Northwestern got fat and happy by making and winning in the Dance and don't know how to handle success.  The only reason they were preseason 19 was media-darling status.  I think Mich, MD, and Wisc will be pretty good.  I think PSU has the talent to sneak in to the tourney like they seem to do every 5 to 6 years.  I'd say they or OSU will be the last team from the conference in.

It appears the bottom has already fallen out at Iowa.  IU has looked awful, IL is at least a year away, Rutgers still is in the conference so I'm forced to mention them and I doubt Neb is anything more than a .500 team.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on November 22, 2017, 12:23:51 AM
Last night's LSU game was a very disappointing with the way it ended (though the Tigers are clearly much improved even if they only end up in the NIT), but most of the problems are fixable, as Michigan almost always gets better through the season, especially when the team is young like this year's team. I think they can and probably should beat VCU. It's just too bad they got stuck playing Chaminade instead of another team in the bracket.

Anyway, it's good to see Matthews finally emerging on offense. I'm not sold that he's a future pro or all-BigTen caliber player, but he's definitely better than Irvin was.

The PG situation is still uncertain, but Eli Brooks is finally getting significant minutes and looks more comfortable than Simmons or Simpson do on offense. Jordan Poole also finally got a decent amount of playing time, and looked better than Ibi Watson, if nothing else, so he should be backing up Matthews and Abdur-Rahkman. Teske is good enough as a backup center. Isaah Livers is okay as a backup forward but not ready for major minutes. Hopefully that'll change during the season since he'll be starting next year.

Overall, this team won't probably challenge for the Big Ten, but they should be a top 40 team and be dangerous enough to beat a top team when they play well.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 22, 2017, 05:29:56 AM
I'm not sold on UW being good yet, even though Greg Gard things they will be. They had UCLA beat and they let it slip away. It was not on TV but this was in the paper:

*****************************************

KANSAS CITY, Mo. – Wisconsin coach Greg Gard loved the effort Tuesday night against No. 23 UCLA.
The execution at various times in the consolation game of the Hall of Fame Classic, particularly in the final 3 1/2 minutes, left him sick.

"Now we can’t turn the ball over in three of our last eight possessions and have five points in eight possessions," Gard said after UCLA wiped out a six-point deficit and stole a 72-70 victory at the Sprint Center.

"You don’t close out games with that type of a statistic. It is the execution and part of that is maturity."

Also, UW had a 12 point lead in the 1st half with under 2 minutes and went scoreless. Their lead at the half was down to 7.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 22, 2017, 09:09:52 AM
The problem is Wisconsin is not very good now, but I don't doubt they will be the most improved team as the season progresses, which is going to damage the Big Ten's chances at more and better bids/seeding.

I think MSU had a year in like 2004ish were they were really young, played a killed schedule and lost like 6 OOC games, but then went like 13-3 in the Big Ten, and the conference only got 3 teams in.  I think MSU doing so poorly OOC and then a young team improving and running through the conference with relative ease hurt the rep.  So Bucky, but for the good of the number of bids, and the quality of our seeds, you guys having another top 4 finish is just about the worst case scenario.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 22, 2017, 09:15:56 AM
I dunno if UW helps or hurts the conference and don't much care. Based on some of the early returns, this is not gonna be a banner year anyway. Iowa seems to flat out suck. Northwestern is already a disappointment. Rutgers, Nebraska and Penn State probably are what they have been lately.

Minny has played mostly cupcakes, but that will change soon, so we'll see. Then there is Purdue and MSU to rely on. The rest are all huge questions.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 22, 2017, 09:18:43 AM
I dunno if UW helps or hurts the conference and don't much care. Based on some of the early returns, this is not gonna be a banner year anyway. Iowa seems to flat out suck. Northwestern is already a disappointment. Rutgers, Nebraska and Penn State probably are what they have been lately.

Minny has played mostly cupcakes, but that will change soon, so we'll see. Then there is Purdue and MSU to rely on. The rest are all huge questions.
I don't care much about the conference other than how it impacts MSU, and the weaker the conference is perceived, the more it hurts MSU.  I get UW fans wouldn't much care, but for fans of the other 13 schools, the worst case scenario is for a team to pick up a bunch of OOC losses, and then improve and be successful in conference play.  It won't be looked at as UW improving, but as the conference being weak.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 22, 2017, 09:32:43 AM
I think it's actually worse for the conference to get more bids and go home after one game. That's why I don't care much. It just looks like a bad year and it also looks like the ACC is gonna have a feast on our boys.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 22, 2017, 10:00:27 AM
Pardon my ignorance, but I really know nothing about this PK80 thing that both Ohio State and Michigan State are playing in on Turkey Day.  

For one thing, apparently Portland has an arena so big that they have two BB arenas in it?  

First question:  On the PK80 Bracket that I found online (http://pkinvitational.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/PK80-Printable-Brackets.pdf) MSU is supposed to open with Georgetown but on the Worldwide Leader's schedule for MSU, they are playing DePaul.  What happened there?

Apparently this is really two eight-team tournaments.  In the Victory Bracket:
In the Motion Bracket:

Then each team will play two more games because there are winners and losers brackets after each step.  Ie, on Friday Ohio State will play either Florida or Stanford and on Sunday they will play either Dook, Portland St, Texas or Butler.  

Each bracket will produce:

Do I have this right in my head?

Does anybody think Ohio State has a chance against Gonzaga?  

Is it possible that Ohio State would be better off to lose to Gonzaga because they could then win two games in the losers bracket as opposed to beating Gonzaga and then probably losing two games in the winners bracket?  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 22, 2017, 10:09:11 AM
First question:  On the PK80 Bracket that I found online (http://pkinvitational.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/PK80-Printable-Brackets.pdf) MSU is supposed to open with Georgetown but on the Worldwide Leader's schedule for MSU, they are playing DePaul.  What happened there?

They were supposed to play Georgetown, but they dropped out, and released some weird statement that was basically like "we don't want to play a bunch of losable games."  I recall reading some DC writer blasting them for it, that this is basically the marquee event for Nike's premier basketball schools, and nobody is going to remember who wins and loses.  That there's far more value in confirming your place among the basketball elite, both from a perception standpoint, and as far as your relationship with Nike, than in ducking a couple good losses.

Each bracket will produce:
  • 3-0 Champion
  • 2-1 Second place
  • 2-1 Third place
  • 1-2 fourth place
  • 2-1 fifth place
  • 1-2 sixth place
  • 1-2 seventh place
  • 0-3 eighth place

Do I have this right in my head?

Does anybody think Ohio State has a chance against Gonzaga?  

Is it possible that Ohio State would be better off to lose to Gonzaga because they could then win two games in the losers bracket as opposed to beating Gonzaga and then probably losing two games in the winners bracket?  
Yup, same as all of these 8 team preseason tourneys.  I think it can be kind of a wash as far as winning first but going 2-1 vs. losing first but going 1-2.  Yes, you pick up an additional loss the 2nd way, but by being in the winners bracket, you are more likely to play RPI boosting opponents.  That said, this field is beyond loaded aside from Portland/Portland State, so aside from playing them, pretty much everyone should be an RPI boost, save for playing DePaul like MSU has to now.

The tourney as a whole should be great, only problem is the tip times with it being on the West coast.

I'll certainly give MSU AD Mark Hollis credit (this was his idea), that as far as these types of things go, he continues to be at the forefront.  Not such a bad idea to throw a birthday bash for your biggest sponsor, and get ESPN involved.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on November 22, 2017, 10:12:43 AM
No clue what Gonzaga looks like this year, but playing them at midnight on the west coast seems like a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on November 22, 2017, 10:50:48 AM
Quite pleased with PSU's effort yesterday in Brooklyn.  aTm is clearly a better team, but PSU really hung with them.  aTm shot the lights out from 3 last night as well as had an unreal effort at the free throw line.  aTm got up 17 at one point in the 2nd half, but PSU immediately fought back and got it down to 5 with about 8 to go. 

PSU is playing a ton of young talent, save for Julien Moore and Shep Garner which are both seniors.  Shep unfortunately never really materialized into that 'replacement' for Tim Frazier (and I put in quotes b/c Shep was never an NBA level talent like Tim, but should have been a more serviceable 3 guard than he's become).  Tony Carr is the real deal, you'll all enjoy watching him play this year and I think he has NBA level skills, just not an NBA body.  Watkins is a nice big body inside and Stevens is a natural scorer. They have some really nice talent on D, even if it didn't show last night.

I am really happy that what Chambers put in motion so long ago is finally coming to fruition - and that's the pipeline FINALLY to Philly.  PSU never ever ever had that, it's refreshing to see them getting kids that the likes of Nova and G'town are interested in.  

Best case for PSU this year is the bubble, but they'll lack a premier OOC win regardless now that they lost last night.  I don't think the B1G is good enough to simply get in b/c you're in the top half of the conference at season's end, but an NIT berth is not out of the question this year, which would really set them up nicely for a nice run in '18-19.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 22, 2017, 10:58:12 AM
Tugs Bowen officially not playing this year.  Louisville said he can remain on scholarship and with the team.  Considering he never suited up, and only managed to get Pitino fired, he may not want to spend much more time on campus, for his own safety.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 22, 2017, 02:25:00 PM
It's a little early to be wondering that.  If Purdue wins Battle of Atlantis by beating Nova and Zona they'll jump to 6th or better in the country.

Or lose in the opener to a bad Tennessee team and keep that Big Ten train rolling
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 22, 2017, 03:20:44 PM
I hope everyone sleeps on the Terps. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on November 23, 2017, 01:13:36 AM
For all the bad press on the Big Ten, while the league's performance against quality teams has been disappointing so far, there have only been 3 bad losses - Iowa to South Dakota State & UL Lafayette, and Indiana to Indiana State - and even those wouldn't be the worst non-con losses for the league in most years.

Michigan was fortunate to beat VCU tonight. Offensively there were some dumb turnovers and defensively allowed too many offensive rebounds. The officiating was bad both ways and fortunately Michigan caught a huge break for a no-call when Wagner got a late steal that led to a fast-break. Tonight's game reinforced that Michigan has a decent starting lineup except for the on-going 3-way PG competition, a good backup center in Teske, but no quality depth at the 2/3/4 spots, though I have more hope in Livers and Poole emerging than Watson. I'll be intrigued if Beilein tries to play Wagner at the 4, which is probably where he ends up as a pro, alongside Teske, against bigger teams....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 23, 2017, 02:49:01 PM
The best indicator of ACC sleeper pick is to be a team other than UNC or Duke, playing MSU in the Challenge.  I believe we got FSU and Miami in years where they randomly won ACC titles, we got BC in a year where if they didn't win they were really.close with Dudley, same with NCSU the year they had Hodge?  Now ND goes out and wins Maui, and will likely be top 10 when the new poll.comes out Monday.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 23, 2017, 09:30:04 PM
Or lose in the opener to a bad Tennessee team and keep that Big Ten train rolling
And then lose to WKU.  Big Ten already managed to fall into the 7th place game in a pair of tourneys now
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 23, 2017, 10:49:15 PM
Bridges out.  Hopefully because it's a November game, so why risk it, and not because it's truly serious.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 24, 2017, 07:28:54 AM
I didn't stay up to watch it but yikes, judging from the score Ohio State's game against Gonzaga must have been pretty ugly.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on November 24, 2017, 07:57:58 AM
Yeah sounds like they ran out of gas in the first half.  Not really expecting them to beat Gonzaga under any circumstances, especially in the middle of the night
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 24, 2017, 08:00:02 AM
Big Ten = Bad
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 24, 2017, 08:27:37 AM

Big Ten = Bad

Yeah sounds like they ran out of gas in the first half.  Not really expecting them to beat Gonzaga under any circumstances, especially in the middle of the night
Pretty much a disaster day for the B1G:

Like you, Max, I didn't expect Ohio State to beat Gonzaga but I certainly hoped they could do better than a 27 point blowout.  

From the game flow thing it appears that Ohio State played with Gonzaga for about the first 12 minutes, hitting a bucket with about 8:00 to go in the first half to make it a two point game at 33-31.  Then Ohio State went about 10 minutes without a point.  Almost two minutes into the second half Ohio State hit a bucket to pull within 14 at 47-33 but by then it was already over.  

The Buckeyes get Stanford tonight (9pm) and then, depending on whether they win or lose, the winner/loser of the Butler/PortlandSt game today.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 24, 2017, 09:39:12 AM
That was probably the ideal November game.  No Bridges, no Ahrens, Ward picks up 2 fouls before the first three timeout, Langford and Winston both with 4 with over 12 minutes left and a bunch of bench guys and walk ons put the game out of reach.  Some walk on with 6 offensive boards?  After how bad the rebounding was against Duke, I think that kid earned some PT with Izzo with that kind of effort.

Never know when you are going to need those guys to step up again
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 24, 2017, 12:37:29 PM
Wow, Arizona lost again too?  So we get a top 20 matchup in the 7th place game in Zona-PU
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 25, 2017, 11:27:25 AM
Yeesh, how big of a mess is Arizona?  They have to set a college poll record.  How can you still have them ranked?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 25, 2017, 11:32:48 AM
KenPom, which usually lower than other methodologies because of their fast pace, and high turnover rate, somehow has them projected to go 30-1 after the win last night.

Can I take the under?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 25, 2017, 05:38:21 PM
OSU has to play Butler on Sunday, much to the chagrin of Chris Holtmann. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 25, 2017, 09:22:43 PM
Somehow Minnesota win over Alabama might be the new Big Ten low point
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 26, 2017, 06:23:29 PM
OSU blows a 15 point lead in the final 5 minutes and loses to Butler.  Damn
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 26, 2017, 06:31:27 PM
OSU blows a 15 point lead in the final 5 minutes and loses to Butler.  Damn
Not exactly inspiring me to reverse my decision  to cut the cord after football season. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 26, 2017, 08:10:19 PM
Sounds like McQuaid is out.  Hopefully Bridges has more minutes in him, and Winston stays hot from 3.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 26, 2017, 10:37:25 PM
Curb stomping UConn and UNC back to back takes some sting off of a loss to Duke
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 26, 2017, 10:39:56 PM
In fairness, UNC players probably thought shooting 1-18 from 3 was good, considering that score generally gets them an A- in whatever fake classes they are enrolled in this semester
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 26, 2017, 11:41:33 PM
Lowest PPP for UNC in the KenPom era.  If you like defense, this weekend for MSU sports was a lot of fun.  If you are my wife, it was boring.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on November 27, 2017, 06:07:17 AM
OSU blows a 15 point lead in the final 5 minutes and loses to Butler.  Damn
Sounds like they couldn't handle the press, which isn't surprising because they have no guards
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 27, 2017, 10:08:27 AM
Challenge starts tonight, now spread over 4 days, with the bulk still Tuesday/Wednesday

Full schedule, with my picks

MONDAY
Maryland at Syracuse
Wisconsin at Virginia

TUESDAY

Florida State at Rutgers
Northwestern at Georgia Tech
Louisville at Purdue
Illinois at Wake Forest
Iowa at Virginia Tech

WEDNESDAY
Penn State at NC State
Clemson at Ohio State
Michigan at North Carolina
Miami at Minnesota
Boston College at Nebraska
Duke at Indiana

THURSDAY
Notre Dame at Michigan State

ACC 8-6

In a shocking twist, the ACC's worst team, Pitt, didn't make the cut this year, they seem to be pretty good at that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 27, 2017, 11:45:32 AM
Maryland can't beat a zone defense. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: rolltidefan on November 27, 2017, 12:04:48 PM
Somehow Minnesota win over Alabama might be the new Big Ten low point
the sporting world was robbed of one of the most interesting game in recent memory due to that tournaments tv scheduling. just awful.

good win, minn.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 27, 2017, 04:43:33 PM
Purdue drops out of the top 25. Beating Arizona--who was #2 before the week but took two losses to face Purdue in the 7th/8th place game in the Bahamas, losing badly--wasn't enough to keep them in the poll after losing to Tennessee and WKU. 

Based on vote totals, Purdue is sitting at 29 (AP) and 26 (Coaches) after the week. 

With Louisville, Maryland, and Northwestern up this week, it's likely a 3-0 week might put them back into the polls, but I'm sure nothing less will get them there.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on November 27, 2017, 04:59:32 PM
Was in the house for the MSU win over UNC.  Feels good man.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 27, 2017, 05:00:15 PM
Oh yeah, great win by Michigan State. Dominant. 

What's with all these late games? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on November 27, 2017, 05:13:36 PM
Wake Forest has some pretty bad losses so far this year.  I'm taking the Illini tomorrow.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 27, 2017, 05:26:41 PM
Oh yeah, great win by Michigan State. Dominant.

What's with all these late games?
The stupidty of staging a one time, premier tournament on the west coast.  You get what you hoped for, MSU-UNC and Duke-Florida championships...and have them play at 8:30 and 10:30 on the east coast on Sunday at the end of a long weekend.

IMO, Maui does it right.  Kick off Feast Week, and wrap it up before football takes over.  Not a fan of these Thursday-Friday-Sunday tournaments.  I think I'd go Tuesday-Wednesday-Friday.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 27, 2017, 05:28:53 PM
Maryland can't beat a zone defense.
Syracuse, so far, isn't defending up to their normal standards, and people are sleeping on the Terps.  I'd slot them as the 4th best team in the conference behind MSU, Purdue and maybe Minnesota.  Hell, after that Alabama fiasco I'd buy an argument for Maryland in 3rd.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 27, 2017, 05:38:45 PM
Only if Mr. NBA gets his ass in gear.

Jackson has been very unimpressive, and is pushing/forcing things way too much.

Losing to St. Bonaventure is pretty low, but they run multiple zone looks, and Maryland looked like deers in headlights.

The offense is designed for the players to find match-ups and exploit them in man to man situations.

Drop into a zone, and you throw off the entire offense, and we've shot terribly, and turned the ball over, probably more than any team in the B1G right now.

Fuuuuudge..... Jaime Lucky.  FFS
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on November 27, 2017, 08:00:56 PM
1 half down, and that's about all you're going to get from Maryland. 

Played Friday and Saturday in Florida, and now in New York. 

I expect a complete meltdown in the second. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on November 28, 2017, 01:50:52 AM
Michigan might have a chance against North Carolina, since they finally thoroughly dominated an inferior team in UC Riverside, while North Carolina played badly against Sparty. We'll see.

I think the Big Ten goes 6-8 overall with tonight's games going as predicted (though I thought Wisconsin - Virginia might be slightly higher-scoring)..... The only road wins I see are Illinois over Wake Forest, Duke over Indiana, and Florida State over Rutgers.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: DevilFroggy on November 28, 2017, 03:16:32 AM
ASU basketball ranked for the first time since 2009 while uofa is unranked. I don't know what alternate reality I found myself in but I love it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 28, 2017, 08:18:42 AM
Michigan might have a chance against North Carolina, since they finally thoroughly dominated an inferior team in UC Riverside, while North Carolina played badly against Sparty. We'll see.

I think the Big Ten goes 6-8 overall with tonight's games going as predicted (though I thought Wisconsin - Virginia might be slightly higher-scoring)..... The only road wins I see are Illinois over Wake Forest, Duke over Indiana, and Florida State over Rutgers.
MSU overwhelmed them inside with depth (which they can do to pretty much anyone this year), and forced UNC to be a 3 point shooting team, and the Heels wound up shooting 1-18 from the perimeter.  If you aren't going to make threes against MSU, you are toast this year, too much inside, but they don't have the shooters I trust to get into that kind of game with any regularity.  Duke shot 40% from 3, and made 9 more FTs.

I'm not sure UM can force UNC outside like that.  Or if they do if UNC will shoot even close to that poorly again.

I think Belein has found something though in taking the ball out of the hands of his struggling point guard duo, and letting Matthews play with the ball in his hands more.  He seems like a natural in that role, making some really good decisions, without sacrificing too much of his own scoring.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on November 28, 2017, 11:24:03 PM
Illinois played poorly against the zone and had a ton of fouls and turnovers.  Disappointing result.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 29, 2017, 07:54:25 AM
The Big Ten is a disappointing result.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on November 29, 2017, 10:02:14 AM
That game last night was one of the worst officiated Illinois games I have ever seen.  

There was a offensive foul (charge) that somehow generated foul shots for the other team

At least one, maybe two times that a foul was nullified upon review

A tip in shot that counted for 3 pts, a foul on Illinois during that resulting in Wake getting the ball back after the tip in 3.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on November 29, 2017, 10:57:56 AM
sorry... I stumbled into the wrong room.  

what is this sport again?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 29, 2017, 11:45:00 AM
Well at least Purdue took care of business...

Was fun to see all the kids in the student section wearing "FBI" shirts :s_laugh:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 29, 2017, 12:41:18 PM
Forever Booing Institution?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 29, 2017, 01:00:09 PM
MONDAY
Maryland at Syracuse
Wisconsin at Virginia
TUESDAY

Florida State at Rutgers
Northwestern at Georgia Tech
Louisville at Purdue
Illinois at Wake Forest
Iowa at Virginia Tech
WEDNESDAY
Penn State at NC State
Clemson at Ohio State
Michigan at North Carolina
Miami at Minnesota
Boston College at Nebraska
Duke at Indiana
THURSDAY
Notre Dame at Michigan State

ACC 8-6
Based on ELA's picks we should have been 3-4 at this point.  Instead we are a dismal 1-6 because all of ELA's predicted B1G losers lost along with Maryland (by 2 at Cuse) and Northwestern (by 1 at GaTech).  
If the rest of ELA's predictions hold up we will finish 4-10 which would be our worst finish since 2-7 back-to-back in 2003/2004.  
Is there any chance to salvage a decent record out of this thing?  
Using ESPN's lines:
I like ESPN's lines better than ELA's predictions because we would pick up home wins by the Buckeyes and Cornhuskers.  Assuming that they have MSU favored over ND then it isn't impossible to imagine us going 5-2 the rest of the way to finish 6-8.  

The problem, as I see it, is that our remaining favorites are generally pretty close calls while the ACC's remaining favorites are both BIG favorites so we are a LOT more likely to suffer an upset than to pull off an upset.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 29, 2017, 01:02:01 PM
Problem is there have been 5 close games (all but Purdue's win and Iowa's loss) and we went 0-5.  Just by coin flip we should have pulled out 2 of those, and at least been 3-4 at this point.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 29, 2017, 02:45:56 PM
That is a fair point.  For the most part we aren't getting blown out, we just keep losing the close ones.  B1G results so far:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 29, 2017, 02:51:02 PM
Forgot about Wisconsin, that one wasn't close either, particularly considering how low scoring the game was.  They were down 10-16 most of the 2nd half, which is like 20-25 in a more typical scoring game.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 29, 2017, 02:53:39 PM
And while the Purdue/L'ville game didn't finish close, it was a very close, hard-fought game all the way through. At the end Purdue pulled away during all the fouls / free throw shooting. I think it was a 4 point game with less than a minute to go. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 29, 2017, 08:19:48 PM
Ohio State up 
Penn State down 7
Michigan down 14

All at halftime
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 29, 2017, 08:29:23 PM
Thought PSU had a really good shot.

Michigan doesn't look interested in playing defense at all
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 29, 2017, 09:04:31 PM
Looking worse now. B1G losing all three games in progress.

OSU & PSU running out of time. Michigan getting run out of the gym.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 29, 2017, 09:40:46 PM
0-3 in the early games.

For the conference as a whole this season is rapidly moving from disappointment to disaster.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on November 29, 2017, 11:05:52 PM
Nebraska trying to carry their weight again.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: GopherRock on November 29, 2017, 11:15:25 PM
 Isaiah Washington is not Russell Westbrook. Him going 0-4 on the first four possessions coming out of the half led directly to an 8-0 Hurricane run, and now they're banking in 3s. Pitino needed to park him firmly on the bench. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 29, 2017, 11:23:44 PM
And yet somehow Indiana leading Duke late.  Of all the games, that was the one I had the least confidence in the Big Ten winning.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on November 29, 2017, 11:30:17 PM
Huskers didn't embarrass the conference

small victory 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 29, 2017, 11:42:28 PM
1-5 tonight, 2-11 with MSU/ND to go. Ugh.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on November 29, 2017, 11:50:20 PM
Big Ten isn't looking the best early in preconf. I figured 7 bid league with chance for 8. 5 may be pushing it.
 
 I know Wisc vs Tony Bennett is just asking for ugliness, but 37 points for the game?
 
Worst part is a bunch of the games weren't even close with Big Ten getting housed. Really thought IL would pull it off at Wake, sucks the refs did them no favors.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on November 30, 2017, 07:09:19 AM
Big Ten isn't looking the best early in preconf. I figured 7 bid league with chance for 8. 5 may be pushing it.
 
 I know Wisc vs Tony Bennett is just asking for ugliness, but 37 points for the game?
 
Worst part is a bunch of the games weren't even close with Big Ten getting housed. Really thought IL would pull it off at Wake, sucks the refs did them no favors.
Wisconsin is really behind right now. The whole class that should be juniors has disappointed. They're 327th in experience on KenPom. I think UW will round into form, but the growing pains won't be fun. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 30, 2017, 08:57:35 AM
Big Ten isn't looking the best early in preconf. I figured 7 bid league with chance for 8. 5 may be pushing it.
 
 I know Wisc vs Tony Bennett is just asking for ugliness, but 37 points for the game?
 
Worst part is a bunch of the games weren't even close with Big Ten getting housed. Really thought IL would pull it off at Wake, sucks the refs did them no favors.
Michigan made it look less terrible at the end, and I didn't expect Nebraska to win...so I guess we got that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 30, 2017, 10:27:13 AM
Wisconsin is really behind right now. The whole class that should be juniors has disappointed. They're 327th in experience on KenPom. I think UW will round into form, but the growing pains won't be fun.
Well lucky for Wisconsin, the conference looks weak enough that they should be able to keep their 4th or better streak going.  I think in a normal year that might be in danger.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 30, 2017, 11:51:37 AM
Wisconsin is really behind right now. The whole class that should be juniors has disappointed. They're 327th in experience on KenPom. I think UW will round into form, but the growing pains won't be fun.
I'm still not sold on what UW is going to be without Bo Ryan. While everyone was all in on Gard when he was largely continuing Bo's trajectory, every year removed from Bo is Greg's team regarding style, recruiting, and developing players. While the first year and a half looked very good, I consider that an "incomplete" grade given that the 2016-17 starting core was a bunch of upperclassmen that came in and developed under Bo. 
Don't get me wrong here. I am *not* saying Greg Gard isn't a good coach. I'm just saying the expectation that they "will round into form" might be based on the hope that Greg is a Bo clone, when I don't think we have enough evidence to say that yet. This year and next will really determine what you have up there in Madison. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 30, 2017, 01:02:30 PM
I'm still not sold on what UW is going to be without Bo Ryan. While everyone was all in on Gard when he was largely continuing Bo's trajectory, every year removed from Bo is Greg's team regarding style, recruiting, and developing players. While the first year and a half looked very good, I consider that an "incomplete" grade given that the 2016-17 starting core was a bunch of upperclassmen that came in and developed under Bo.
Don't get me wrong here. I am *not* saying Greg Gard isn't a good coach. I'm just saying the expectation that they "will round into form" might be based on the hope that Greg is a Bo clone, when I don't think we have enough evidence to say that yet. This year and next will really determine what you have up there in Madison.
The more disappointing players on the team right now were brought in by Bo, with the exception of Happ. The underclassmen are going to make this team what it will be. Some look promising. Others not yet.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 30, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
The more disappointing players on the team right now were brought in by Bo, with the exception of Happ. The underclassmen are going to make this team what it will be. Some look promising. Others not yet.
Yes, but Bo had a history of developing the players on his roster. Now, perhaps these players are somehow different than other players in previous classes, or perhaps Bo's teaching and development was the difference between other players being disappointing or being solid.

That's my point. Wisconsin has never been the school that brings in multiple high 4* / 5* recruits every year. They rarely have had "instant impact freshmen" that can come in and take over. They've made their living based upon identifying players that will fit their system and developing them over time. Now Bo isn't there to develop them. Perhaps Gard can be as effective as Bo in developing players. Perhaps he can't.

Or it could be that the type of players/system Bo ran is actually different than what Gard is now trying to do, and maybe just the players are a mismatch or haven't bought in as they were Bo's recruits.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on November 30, 2017, 03:08:26 PM
I'm still not sold on what UW is going to be without Bo Ryan. While everyone was all in on Gard when he was largely continuing Bo's trajectory, every year removed from Bo is Greg's team regarding style, recruiting, and developing players. While the first year and a half looked very good, I consider that an "incomplete" grade given that the 2016-17 starting core was a bunch of upperclassmen that came in and developed under Bo.
Don't get me wrong here. I am *not* saying Greg Gard isn't a good coach. I'm just saying the expectation that they "will round into form" might be based on the hope that Greg is a Bo clone, when I don't think we have enough evidence to say that yet. This year and next will really determine what you have up there in Madison.
I'll address this with a longer post later, but I should clarify, when I say "round into form," I mean be one of the weaker teams since the Bo era started (assuming heath), but good enough to make the tournament with some comfort. 
Right now they're 38th in KenPom and their worst loss is a last-second one to the No. 45 team or by 12 at No. 3. It's not fine, but I'm not near the panic button.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on November 30, 2017, 03:24:50 PM
Ugh Penn State....really left one get away last night.  Becoming a trend now - poor foul shooting, missing a lot within 3' of the rim (the dinks and dunks), really bad perimeter defense and letting teams shoot well from 3 pt.  This team's lacking leadership (Shep Garner's just never turned into the player I had hoped he would).  

How to beat PSU right now - stop Tony Carr, shoot well from the perimeter.  It's just that simple until PSU figures out how to get more out of Mike Watkins down low and they stop packing the paint so much.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 30, 2017, 04:09:01 PM
I couldn't watch the Ohio State game last night because it was on cable and I'm a cord-cutter who had other things to do.  For anyone who watched it, WTF happened in the second half?  

All I really have is the box score:

It is really not even the entire second half.  Early in the second half Ohio State actually built onto their lead and led by 11.  As late as about four minutes into the second half the Buckeyes were up 10 at 47-37.  The Buckeyes still had a seven point lead at 51-44 almost seven minutes into the second half.  From that point on the Buckeyes were outscored 35-14.  Ouch!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 30, 2017, 05:01:25 PM
Omer Yurtseven will get drafted based on potential, but he's a very unfinished product, and OSU made him look like the best big in college basketball.  Probably bodes well as a matchup for MSU
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on November 30, 2017, 09:32:54 PM
MSU men's basketball looks to have a pretty good team this season. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on November 30, 2017, 09:37:00 PM
My "surprise" team to Dance this year is PSU.  They make it every 5 to 6 years and I thought they were pretty decent last year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on November 30, 2017, 11:01:38 PM
MSU men's basketball looks to have a pretty good team this season.
Has to be the deepest team he's ever had.  It's amazing how some of the liabilities from last year look so much better in their appropriate roles.  Also so pleasantly surprised with Carter and Tillman.  Figured Carter might retire after yet another ACL injury, and Tillman seemed primed for an redshirt year.
This was a big one because the way the Big Ten is looking, the chances for statement wins in conference play looks limited.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on November 30, 2017, 11:37:59 PM
Yes, but Bo had a history of developing the players on his roster. Now, perhaps these players are somehow different than other players in previous classes, or perhaps Bo's teaching and development was the difference between other players being disappointing or being solid.

That's my point. Wisconsin has never been the school that brings in multiple high 4* / 5* recruits every year. They rarely have had "instant impact freshmen" that can come in and take over. They've made their living based upon identifying players that will fit their system and developing them over time. Now Bo isn't there to develop them. Perhaps Gard can be as effective as Bo in developing players. Perhaps he can't.

Or it could be that the type of players/system Bo ran is actually different than what Gard is now trying to do, and maybe just the players are a mismatch or haven't bought in as they were Bo's recruits.

SO, I have a lot of thoughts.
To answer your first graph, I think it was fair to say, the current crop of juniors (the really disappointing ones) were quite bad as freshmen. Like they showed less than most UW players who grew into real contributors. Granted, they've also not grown into even reliable 8th-man types, which is irritating. 

To the second graph, I also think Bo's developmental skills were a hint overstated, but more on that later. 

They system is by-and-large the same, but Gard has a longer leash, which manifests itself in interesting ways. 

Here are my thoughts on why this start isn't tearing my up too much.
1. This isn't the worst start UW's had in the past three years. The Bo-to-Gard year was a HOT mess. Lost to Western Illinois and a not-great Georgetown team, and eventually UWM.
2. With that in mind, I'm not too stressed because UW's worst loss is ... ? UCLA? That seems kinda OK. They were tied with seconds to go. Vs. Xavier they were tied at the last TV timeout. Vs. Baylor down 2 with 2:20 left. At Virginia is gonna be a hard one. 
3. Now the team is still pretty incoherent, and that's not ideal, but your top seven players are Happ (very good), a sophomore at top guard, a sophomore who hardly played last year, three freshmen and Khalil Iverson, who makes me want to put my fist through a window, I assume some gelling could happen. There's fight, and that's a start.
4. If UW can't beat OSU and starts taking Ls vs. PSU, Temple and Marquette, Ima get more worried. This team overscheduled for what it was.
5. Part of that is the recruiting imbalance at the end of Bo's tenure. One thing that helped UW was it tended to only lose 2-3 contributors a year from 2006-07 until 2012-13. The first UW Final Four team was veteran despite only having one senior, but at this point, UW has six scholarship juniors, two sophomores and four freshmen (which will likely bump to five when a reshirting walk-on transfer likely gets one). UW has gone several recent years down a scholarship player or two and it'll likely take a few cycles to clean up, especially given the top guy in the next class flipped to Kentucky.

On the other hand, life will be different without Bo, and here are a few reasons.
1. Bo's teams were crazy good at not turning the ball over. He'd bench talented scorers for doing it. He'd leave in docile, risk-averse guys. And it meant his offenses had a certain floor. You get that unless your shooting is just trash, and he got a lot of guards good at the end of the clock.
2. More of Bo's good players were solid to good as freshmen, they just got more minutes and responsibilities. Like you knew freshman Jordan Taylor would be something, and early in his sophomore year, you knew he's REALLY be something. Even Frank Kaminsky, the patron saint of development was a solidly efficent role player early on. 
3. Bo could set a damn rotation. It sometimes befuddled fans, but looking back, he had a great sense of who should be in when. Gard has a looser rein there. Which is sometimes nice, but means more guys got out looking like they don't have a damn clue (this current roster isn't helping)
4. I don't think the top-4 thing continues for much longer, and I think this team loses it unless everything comes together as well as we can hope. But I think Gard's badgers will look much like Bo's. Maybe less sickeningly consistent. Maybe with a little more energy. Who knows. You're guy Painter rediscovered his recruiting mojo, and that looked like a longshot a few years ago, so maybe Greg hits some Bo marks while keeping things going. (I know Hammons getting it was one thing for Purdue, but did the 2014 class seem as solid as it ended up being? 2015 seemed like a tire fire until Biggie landed in it)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on December 01, 2017, 12:39:40 AM
Not panicking yet for Michigan. Yes the defense was awful against North Carolina, and the offense started great but struggled the rest of the way, but give credit to the backups for not getting blown out in the second half.

Simmons has been a huge disappointment so far. There's no explanation for it either, considering he was arguably the best player in the MAC last year. Yes, he was the best player for Ohio, but the Bobcats were also the second best team in the league to Akron. Brooks is the best PG for the offense, and Simpson remains the best defender but not much else. I also don't understand why Watson is still getting minutes, since Poole should be the primary backup for Abdur-Rahkman and Matthews (SG/SF). Livers is showing positive signs, but the main hope for him is that he can take more minutes away from Robinson as he continues to figure out the offense while being a better defender. I don't think we'll be seeing Wagner and Teske on the court at the same time any time soon....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on December 01, 2017, 01:11:10 AM
Michigan State has to be the #1 team in the country. 

They play Duke 5 times, they win 4 of them. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 01, 2017, 08:25:40 AM
Michigan State has to be the #1 team in the country.

They play Duke 5 times, they win 4 of them.
Take the names off the jersey, maybe.  Duke mental block for MSU is real.  We have to hope someone else takes them out for us in the tourney.  I'd pick us right now to beat anyone else, but Izzo can't get past K.
I still think MSU is going to struggle sometimes with perimeter oriented teams.  The interior defense is fantastic, and there is so much depth there, they can foul without fear, because they can just rotate someone else in.  But on the wings concerns me, particularly guards who can drive and get us in foul trouble out there.  DePaul actually attacked us perfectly, but simply didn't have the talent to pull it off.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 01, 2017, 10:59:34 AM
New Lunardi with just 4 teams (MSU, PU, MD, Minny) plus UM in the play in getting in right now.

Can't even really argue with that
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 01, 2017, 03:46:38 PM
(https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.PNcfzlmqQno4qou3Y4O7tAEsEs&w=233&h=219&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.125&pid=1.7)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on December 01, 2017, 08:55:46 PM
New Lunardi with just 4 teams (MSU, PU, MD, Minny) plus UM in the play in getting in right now.

Can't even really argue with that
We're not making the tournament.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: nuwildcat on December 01, 2017, 11:57:55 PM
hella competitive game between NU and Illinois that could've gone either way

- just happy the 'Cats found a way to win 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 02, 2017, 02:31:27 PM

The Musketeers take out the Bearcats, in the Crosstown Shootout. 


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQEFsWjUEAAf4NV.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on December 02, 2017, 02:59:22 PM
I still can't believe conf games are being played before the BIG ccg has been played.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on December 02, 2017, 05:38:14 PM
Buckeyes with another big lead. Let's see how they blow it
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 02, 2017, 05:41:10 PM
I think it's time to worry about Wisconsin
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on December 02, 2017, 05:59:56 PM
I'll take this half time score as a nice final score for the football game. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on December 02, 2017, 06:12:30 PM
Update: Now I'm worried. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 02, 2017, 06:21:42 PM
Update: Now I'm worried.
No doubt. I turned it off. I don't remember the last time I did that. Maybe when Yoder was the coach.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 02, 2017, 06:59:17 PM
83-58 was the final, as Chris Holtmann remains undefeated in Big Ten play. 

OSU is tied for first place atop Big Ten Standings. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 02, 2017, 07:23:59 PM
How pissed must Barry be now that Bo forced this hire on him?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on December 03, 2017, 10:21:00 PM
Come back from 22 down to throw it away on a hail mary inbound play with just over 4 seconds left.  Unreal.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 04, 2017, 12:06:14 PM
Purdue 2-0 in conference play, but they certainly made the fans sweat it out. 

Granted, that was expected against Maryland. Maryland is a good team, it was at their place, etc. But I think the Vegas line on NU @ Purdue was something like -14, and every time Purdue extended a lead, NU came charging right back. That one was closer than IMHO it should have been.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 04, 2017, 06:22:31 PM
Update: Now I'm worried.
Is there ANY chance that OSU's blowout win in Madison says something about the Buckeyes or are we all in agreement that it simply says that Wisconsin is a LOT worse than any of us thought?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on December 04, 2017, 06:31:24 PM
Is there ANY chance that OSU's blowout win in Madison says something about the Buckeyes or are we all in agreement that it simply says that Wisconsin is a LOT worse than any of us thought?
They try hard and the offense is much more sound conceptually.  But they are relying on freshmen and Jaesean Tate is playing the point
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 04, 2017, 07:18:23 PM
It's not Big Ten, but Lavar Ball is taking LiAngelo out of school. I guess suspending a player for stealing ish in a foreign country is unfair treatment? 

:smiley_confused1:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on December 04, 2017, 08:06:24 PM
I forgot how bad officiating is in the B1G regular season. Home cooking is still relevant. Almost becomes unwatchable.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on December 04, 2017, 08:12:46 PM
Hawkeyes starting 3 sophs and 2 frosh?

gonna be tough, especially on the road
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 04, 2017, 08:42:30 PM
Just like Football, Ohio State defeats the Michigan Wolverines. 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQPxLGMW0AAzwRV.jpg)


OSU remains undefeated in Big Ten play, tied for first place atop the Big Ten standings. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 04, 2017, 08:42:50 PM
Buckeyes 2-0!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on December 04, 2017, 08:44:08 PM
Nice to see the other team blow a big lead
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 04, 2017, 09:10:06 PM
Meyer may never win one, bit OSU is the leader in the clubhouse for basketball coach of the year
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on December 04, 2017, 09:17:32 PM
Wisconsin is very dumb this year. 

Some how, some way, UW went up 14 with five minutes to go, relying on a wing who can't shoot and a freshman big who was supposed to redshirt. Then UW almost gave it ALL back, eventually needing a miss with a second left to hold onto the 1-point win.

This year will be stressful. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 04, 2017, 09:19:48 PM
Night of blown leads.  Michigan blew a 20 point lead, Wisconsin nearly blew a 14 point lead, Indiana in the process of blowing a 15 point lead.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 04, 2017, 10:22:45 PM
How pissed must Barry be now that Bo forced this hire on him?
Too soon for that kind of talk.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 04, 2017, 10:25:26 PM
Wisconsin is very dumb this year.

Some how, some way, UW went up 14 with five minutes to go, relying on a wing who can't shoot and a freshman big who was supposed to redshirt. Then UW almost gave it ALL back, eventually needing a miss with a second left to hold onto the 1-point win.

This year will be stressful.
Growing pains.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on December 05, 2017, 09:31:17 AM
It's not Big Ten, but Lavar Ball is taking LiAngelo out of school. I guess suspending a player for stealing ish in a foreign country is unfair treatment?

:smiley_confused1:
Just listened to an interview that Lavar gave on CNN.  I kid you not, he essentially just said "Having these kids not play basketball is a worse punishment than being in a jail in China."
I'm usually not one to rail on someone's intelligence, but how bleepin' stupid do you have to be to believe that?

Fine.  It's my impression that China dropped the charges and let the boys return home because they believed that the school would punish them appropriately.  Since Lavar is now circumventing that punishment, I say send LiAngelo back to China.  Let him serve two years in prison and see if that is a worse punishment than having to sit 15 games.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 05, 2017, 09:57:24 AM
Let his old man sit in Chinese jail with him. The world would be a better place.

Daily punishment for the old man would be having to go one on one with MJ for an hour.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: fezzador on December 05, 2017, 10:07:48 AM
Just listened to an interview that Lavar gave on CNN.  I kid you not, he essentially just said "Having these kids not play basketball is a worse punishment than being in a jail in China."
I'm usually not one to rail on someone's intelligence, but how bleepin' stupid do you have to be to believe that?

Fine.  It's my impression that China dropped the charges and let the boys return home because they believed that the school would punish them appropriately.  Since Lavar is now circumventing that punishment, I say send LiAngelo back to China.  Let him serve two years in prison and see if that is a worse punishment than having to sit 15 games.
I highly doubt UCLA has the best track record when it comes to disciplining its athletes.  So Alford is going to make them run extra sprints?  That'll learn 'em!

This is a legal matter - one that took place abroad at that.  The kids didn't break school policy, they broke the law.  In China.  At the very least, the kids should write hand-written notes of apology to the Chinese government for what they did.  I don't think jail time is necessary, but a few hours of community service never killed anybody.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on December 05, 2017, 10:35:11 AM
The kids didn't break school policy, they broke the law. 

Technically, I believe that they did break school policy as well as the law.  That is the reason they are suspended.

In fairness, the three players did issue public apologies.  I kinda / somewhat think that they were genuinely sorry.  It would not surprise me in the least if this is Lavar's decision to do this and not LiAngelo's.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: fezzador on December 05, 2017, 10:38:44 AM
I kinda suspect you're right - Lavar is setting his sons up for failure.  They are talented, but he is neither an NBA scout nor someone with real NBA connections.  He's a mediocre coach whose sanity I question.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 05, 2017, 01:06:01 PM
He could get away with this with the oldest and youngest, they are top flight prospects.  This one would never have sniffed UCLA without being some sort of package with the other 2, and sure as hell ain't playing in the NBA.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 05, 2017, 08:06:27 PM
MSU learning life on the road in conference is a whole other beast.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 05, 2017, 08:27:01 PM
The kid didn't belong in school. He's obviously an idiot. 

A group 6.5-7ft UCLA players are going to stick out like a sore thumb in China, and they have the audacity to steal from three different stores? 

You mind your Ps and Qs in a foreign country. Especially when you don't speak a word of their language. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 05, 2017, 08:35:31 PM
MSU learning life on the road in conference is a whole other beast.
Someone should tell Izzo that even though it's December, it's a conference game, and it's not the time to teach your best rebounder a lesson by benching him a whole half.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 05, 2017, 09:24:38 PM
Someone should tell Izzo that even though it's December, it's a conference game, and it's not the time to teach your best rebounder a lesson by benching him a whole half.
And now it's a thing.  Ugh
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 06, 2017, 11:19:13 AM
Upon further review I have decided that I love playing two conference games in early December.  

In a complete shock to everyone, the Buckeyes blew out the Badgers in Madison then staged an epic comeback to beat the Wolverines in Columbus and will now spend an entire month atop the B1G standings (tied with MSU and PU).  The Buckeyes will remain in first place until at January 3 when Purdue will undoubtedly beat Rutgers to move 1/2 game ahead at 3-0.  Then on January 4 MSU hosts Maryland while Ohio State travels to Iowa City.  Given how bad Iowa looks, there is a pretty good chance that Ohio State will move back into first place with Purdue and (possibly) MSU leading up to a first place showdown with the Spartans in Columbus on Sunday, January 7.  

I am going to enjoy Ohio State's month-long stay at the top of the B1G standings!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 06, 2017, 08:41:03 PM
Florida looked so good out in Portland, now after getting run out of the gym by FSU on Monday, down 10 at home to Loyola in a seemingly totally empty arena in Gainesville.  I thought UF had better basketball fan support than this?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on December 06, 2017, 10:19:32 PM
I think it is officially time for Wisconsin fans to start to panic.

Also,  Florida follows up their loss to FSU with a home loss to Loyola-chicago.

That's pretty bad.  Not "Notre Dame home loss to Ball State" bad, but still pretty bad.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 06, 2017, 10:31:45 PM
This will do

https://twitter.com/KJfromtheDeck/status/938402069899284480
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 07, 2017, 07:35:45 AM
I think it is officially time for Wisconsin fans to start to panic.

Also,  Florida follows up their loss to FSU with a home loss to Loyola-chicago.

That's pretty bad.  Not "Notre Dame home loss to Ball State" bad, but still pretty bad.

Nah. Not yet.

The team Gard took over from Bo when he abruptly retired 3 years ago was in a worse spot because it was loaded with experienced players, and he figured that out. This team is devoid of experience right now, except for Happ. I can deal with that. It's called growing pains.

Gard's biggest mistake with this team was not playing Reuvers to start the season and having too much faith in some of the older guys. It's clear that juniors Van Vliet, Thomas and Illikainin have been passed over, since none of them played last night or on Monday at PSU. It's also clear they are not happy, based on their bench body "language"... Look for some or all of them to transfer.

It will look different a month from now, when the kids have more games under their belt. King, Davison and Reuvers are now a big part of this team and all 3 were at prom 6 months ago. Ford is an RS-F and his game is rounding into shape too.

They will learn from last night.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 07, 2017, 08:04:12 AM
The problem is, have they dug themselves too deep of a hole with how bad the Big Ten looks?  Simply being pretty good in conference play this year isn't going to be good enough to erase a bad non-conference season, because the numbers boost won't be what it typically is, and the chances for marquee wins aren't there.

And the committee has put an increased value on road/neutral court wins, where the Badgers are already 1-4.  With only 3 ranked conference teams, and Wisconsin not going to Minnesota, games in West Lafayette and East Lansing are the only remaining chances to pick up good road wins.

I agree that Wisconsin is going to get a LOT better.  But at this point it might take like 13-5 in Big Ten play, which would be like 21-11 overall, to keep the tourney streak alive.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 07, 2017, 09:45:44 AM
They really need to beat Marquette Saturday. That is looming big right now.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 07, 2017, 10:28:08 AM
They really need to beat Marquette Saturday. That is looming big right now.
They do, and I understand that it is important to Wisconsin fans because of rivalry but to ELA's point:  Even if the Badgers beat the Golden Eagles, it will not be a high quality win.  For one thing it is at home.  Beyond that, Marquette is 6-3 without a quality win.  
I was flat shocked by Ohio State running Wisconsin out of their own gym.  Unless Ohio State ends up a whole lot better than I expect this year, that is going to be a problem for Wisconsin.  Losses to ranked Xavier, Baylor, UCLA, and UVA squads are excusable.  Even the road loss to Temple is survivable.  Losing at home by 25 points to a team that probably isn't going to the tournament is a major blow.  
Wisconsin needs quality wins to offset their dismal nonconference performance and that bad loss to Ohio State.  The problem is that in this year's B1G there just aren't many chances.  Wisconsin's remaining games against currently ranked teams:

That is it.  If the Badgers sweep those and avoid losing to anyone else then sure, they'll be fine.  The problem is that at this point neither of those things appear to be very likely.  Further, even if Wisconsin does round into form and become a very good team by mid-season or later, that isn't going to help in West Lafayette or East Lansing in January.  If we go with ELA's theory that Wisconsin would need to finish 13-5/20*-11 to make the tournament then here is what they need to do:

That is rapidly becoming a very tall order.  Even assuming that they win all three home games against ranked teams late in the season, if they lose the two road games against ranked teams in January then they only have two or three more losses to give.  That is 14 (not incl the two already played and the two assumed losses) conference games including three against ranked teams and Wisconsin needs to win almost all of them.  

I'm not saying it is completely hopeless, but I do think that time is rapidly running out.  

* I modified ELA's 21-11 to 20-11 because by my count the Badgers play 31 games this year.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 07, 2017, 10:33:50 AM
My only concern right now is seeing this team hopefully round into form. The talent is there and it is now in place. Saturday's game against OSU forced major changes - changes that were due to be made. They were just made sooner than the coach would have liked. Like, by a year, or so.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on December 07, 2017, 03:02:57 PM
Apparently BOTH Ball brothers (the younger ones) have now signed with an agent.

I get Liangelo, but why cut off any possibility of LaMelo ever being able to step foot on a college campus?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 07, 2017, 03:51:29 PM
Apparently BOTH Ball brothers (the younger ones) have now signed with an agent.

I get Liangelo, but why cut off any possibility of LaMelo ever being able to step foot on a college campus?
My understanding was that there was a significant question about his eligibility already due to something in the family's deal with a shoe company (might have been Nike but I can't remember for sure).  If he wasn't likely to be eligible anyway, then signing with an agent is a non-issue.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 07, 2017, 04:48:56 PM
Correct, his shoe had already launched and there were substantial questions there.

The bigger question is how a shoe with the name of a 16 year old HS player on it sells

I'm at the point where I truly feel sorry for his kids.  The marketing of it has jumped the shark, and any argument that the show he's created is beneficial is gone.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 07, 2017, 08:19:37 PM
Correct, his shoe had already launched and there were substantial questions there.

The bigger question is how a shoe with the name of a 16 year old HS player on it sells

I'm at the point where I truly feel sorry for his kids.  The marketing of it has jumped the shark, and any argument that the show he's created is beneficial is gone.  
It would suck to be a Dad that gets old and his own kids hate him. It's gonna happen.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on December 07, 2017, 08:46:24 PM
Other than crowd shots, I don't think I've ever seen Mr. Zeller, and he had 3 kids go to the NBA,  two of which lottery picks.

Or Mrs. Molina, the mother of 3 major league catchers.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 07, 2017, 09:33:11 PM
Mr. MH,

You get it. Having met your family, I'm confident in saying so.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on December 07, 2017, 11:17:43 PM
The Indiana game was encouraging, along with the first half of the Ohio State game, and then they choked, of course. With a 4-day break and a Noon start against UCLA, which has its own issues (and has to travel east), I think they get the win on Saturday, before going to Texas, which will probably be a loss, before finishing non-con play with some easy wins.

Brooks is clearly the best PG, so I don't understand why Simpson continues to get major minutes, especially in the second half. He's a better defender, but the offense stagnates when he's in. Simmons had some decent plays in his limited time at OSU, so I don't understand why he isn't the backup despite some of his defensive struggles...... Robinson has been off for whatever reason and doesn't do anything to make up for it, but unfortunately Livers isn't ready to play major minutes yet. Meanwhile, Matthews was awful against OSU, too, so even putting at the 4-position at times isn't necessarily the solution.... Watson continues to get some backup minutes over Poole for no apparent reason, too.

Much like the football team, it's clear that this is a transitional year. They should still be able to get into the tournament but probably as one of the last teams in. The upside is that next year the team should be pretty good, especially if Wagner and Matthews both return (which actually appears more likely than not, now).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Hawkinole on December 08, 2017, 01:22:55 AM
Now that basketball season is concluded, are we ready for a thread on Big Ten baseball?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: fezzador on December 08, 2017, 08:27:21 AM
Now that basketball season is concluded, are we ready for a thread on Big Ten baseball?
Well, other than naming Fran's replacement?
He's been here how long now?  7 years?  8 years?  I think he's hit his ceiling.  An upgrade over Lick, but nowhere near what Iowa hoops was in the 80s and much of the 90s.
It's time to move on, but Barta isn't likely to pull the trigger.  TBH, it's time to pull the trigger on the AD more than anything.  He's possibly the worst in the P5.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2017, 08:58:10 AM
Well, other than naming Fran's replacement?
He's been here how long now?  7 years?  8 years?  I think he's hit his ceiling.  An upgrade over Lick, but nowhere near what Iowa hoops was in the 80s and much of the 90s.
It's time to move on, but Barta isn't likely to pull the trigger.  TBH, it's time to pull the trigger on the AD more than anything.  He's possibly the worst in the P5.
Get Jeff Long.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on December 08, 2017, 09:06:36 AM
Yeah, I'm panicked. I think Temple is pretty solid, but you need to come up with some dang wins.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2017, 09:11:38 AM
Yeah, I'm panicked. I think Temple is pretty solid, but you need to come up with some dang wins.
Don't step off pal. Lots of season left. Improvement is showing.

(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.shiftspeakertraining.com%2Fimages%2Fcartoon_man_walk_off_ledge.jpg&hash=82706a7de2dc654c5fa9fc664add810b)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Hawkinole on December 08, 2017, 10:06:57 AM
Well, other than naming Fran's replacement?
He's been here how long now?  7 years?  8 years?  I think he's hit his ceiling.  An upgrade over Lick, but nowhere near what Iowa hoops was in the 80s and much of the 90s.
It's time to move on, but Barta isn't likely to pull the trigger.  TBH, it's time to pull the trigger on the AD more than anything.  He's possibly the worst in the P5.
Everybody is entitled to a bad year once in a while.
Iowa basketball was a strong program for much of the 1940s, 50s, 60s, half of the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Fran brought it back from dead. But there is still a ways to go. I don't know how it went from good to dead, to somewhat better than mediocre. Iowa never used to have to compete recruiting against UNI in recruiting. Now UNI snags good players. Since Wisconsin built the Kohl Center, we compete for players with Wisconsin.
I am not ready to throw in towel on McCaffrey for one bad season, although he hasn't really had a great season yet, either.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 09, 2017, 01:41:38 PM
UW laying an egg against Marquette today.

Trice and King are injured and out for this game. Can't afford that, but oh well.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on December 09, 2017, 02:46:33 PM
UW laying an egg against Marquette today.

Trice and King are injured and out for this game. Can't afford that, but oh well.
Didn't see that coming.   I know Marq goes as the 3 shot goes, but man.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 09, 2017, 03:06:56 PM
They were falling for MU today, that's for sure. As for UW...

The NCAA streak that sits at 19 years is over, unless they win the Big Ten tournament. That is the 6th longest streak in NCAA history, and ranks 4th currently, behind Kansas (28) Dook (22) and MSU (20).

I still think they have a shot of the "4th place or higher" streak this year though. I think the team will gel over the next month and be pretty decent, plus, the conference is not good.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on December 10, 2017, 09:14:13 AM
Now that basketball season is concluded, are we ready for a thread on Big Ten baseball?
yes,
buy me some peanuts and cracker jack
who will replace Tim Miles?
Tyrone Lue?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 10, 2017, 01:39:25 PM
MSU closed strong to win going away, but that was a 5 point game with about 12 to go.

Perimeter defense is still a mess, even though the interior defense is historically good.  I think I saw they've now held four opponents to below 25% shooting on 2s, and no other team in the nation has done it more than once.  But Southern Utah was like 11-21 from 3 at one point.  And it wasn't one of those games where they were just hitting bad shots, they were good looks.

Eventually MSU just sold out on running them off the line and leaving their bigs on islands to block shots.  They did.  But they can't trust them to do that against better teams.

Granted the way the Big Ten looks, I'm not sure how many good teams they'll play.  Purdue might be it?  Minnesota, Maryland and Michigan look like tourney teams, but not top 25 type teams.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 10, 2017, 02:10:23 PM
UW laying an egg against Marquette today.

Trice and King are injured and out for this game. Can't afford that, but oh well.
Trice will have foot surgery tomorrow and miss 4 weeks at a minimum. Kobe King has a knee problem and is out indefinitely (to me that is code that he is done for the season).

Davison will move to the point now and Pritzl will return as the starter at SG. A freshman walk on burned his shirt yesterday too, to add more guards to the mix.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: DevilFroggy on December 10, 2017, 04:13:45 PM
So ASU basketball just left Allen Fieldhouse in Lawrence... with a WIN.

Bobby F*@#ing Hurley.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 10, 2017, 05:44:12 PM
So ASU basketball just left Allen Fieldhouse in Lawrence... with a WIN.

Bobby F*@#ing Hurley.
Word order matters.
F*** Bobby Hurley.
But if he beats Kansas, he's cool with me
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: DevilFroggy on December 10, 2017, 05:59:30 PM
That's not exactly the word I used, although it does still work when placed first.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on December 10, 2017, 09:55:08 PM
West Virginia won a weird game against Pitt last night.  First off, I forgot how fun it is to beat Pitt, but I digress.  Anyway, WVU won 69-60 in a game that Pitt had 31 FT attempts to WVU's 9.  How many games has a team won where they were outshot by more than 20 FT attempts?  Can't be many.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 11, 2017, 10:19:14 AM
My Buckeyes are improbably sitting atop the B1G at 2-0 (tied with PU and MSU) and Holtmann may well be the leading candidate for COTY at this point.  

It is hard to tell how this season will go and right now we really aren't learning much.  As I see it, the next eight games do not give us much opportunity to assess this team:

As I see it, the Buckeyes should win 1-3, 5, and 8 even if they aren't very good.  Losing one of those would raise alarms but winning all of them proves basically nothing.  Similarly, the Buckeyes should lose 4, 6, and 7 even if they are pretty good.  Winning one of those would be nice and losing all of them doesn't prove that Ohio State is terrible.  

The Buckeyes are currently 8-3/2-0 so if things go as I predicted, after the Rutgers game they will be 13-8/4-2.  Then the Buckeyes head to NU.  That is the game I am looking forward too right now because that is one that could go either way.  

As I look ahead at Ohio State's schedule and try to make predictions I get that the Buckeyes should finish roughly somewhere between 17-14 and 20-11.  

As I see it, if the Buckeyes get to MSG at 17-14 they'll need to win the B1G to go to the Dance.  If they get there at 20-11 then they'll possibly be a bubble team that could get in with a win or two.  Games like the game at Northwestern on January 17 will likely be the difference between those two things.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 11, 2017, 11:45:47 AM
Trice will have foot surgery tomorrow and miss 4 weeks at a minimum. Kobe King has a knee problem and is out indefinitely (to me that is code that he is done for the season).
Update..

Both are done for the season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on December 11, 2017, 12:17:34 PM

It is hard to tell how this season will go and right now we really aren't learning much.  As I see it, the next eight games do not give us much opportunity to assess this team:
  • v ApSt, 12/16
  • v Citadel, 12/19
  • v UNC, 12/23 (neutral site in NOLA)
  • v Miami (OH), 12/30
  • @ Iowa, 1/4
  • v MSU, 1/7
  • v UMD, 1/11
  • @ RU, 1/14

As I see it, the Buckeyes should win 1-3, 5, and 8 even if they aren't very good.  Losing one of those would raise alarms but winning all of them proves basically nothing.  Similarly, the Buckeyes should lose 4, 6, and 7 even if they are pretty good.  



I think you might have mixed something up there, unless you really believe that OSU will beat North Carolina but lose to Miami (OH).

Second, I learned a loooooooooong long time ago that you don't look ahead on a schedule and start planning for March in December.  There will be games you win that you don't expect and games you lose that make you need to run out an buy a new universal remote and 50" flatscreen.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 11, 2017, 01:26:39 PM
Update..

Both are done for the season.
Medical redshirt for King in what is looking like a lost season may be a blessing in disguise down the road.  Not that you ever want to see a kid hurt.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 11, 2017, 01:37:33 PM
I think <= 10 games is the magic number for a medical since they play 30 this season. I'd have to go and look how many he has played in.

I think Trice could maybe get one too. He didn't use a redshirt yet.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 11, 2017, 01:44:31 PM
Yes, both played in 10.

I simply meant specifically for King's development.  He looks like a guy who could really benefit from a redshirt year, and it's a bonus he got to play in 10 games.

I think Trice is what he is.  As long as he's out for the season, it's nice to not have it count though.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 11, 2017, 02:02:17 PM
Gotcha. Although I think Trice could still develop.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 11, 2017, 04:25:57 PM
I think you might have mixed something up there, unless you really believe that OSU will beat North Carolina but lose to Miami (OH).

Second, I learned a loooooooooong long time ago that you don't look ahead on a schedule and start planning for March in December.  There will be games you win that you don't expect and games you lose that make you need to run out an buy a new universal remote and 50" flatscreen.
Yep, I flip/flopped #3 and #4.  My bad.  
I get what you are saying about looking ahead.  I'm definitely not planning on a tournament appearance or buying a new TV, just trying to get an idea of where the team is and what they need to do.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 11, 2017, 07:10:14 PM
MSU closed strong to win going away, but that was a 5 point game with about 12 to go.

Perimeter defense is still a mess, even though the interior defense is historically good.  I think I saw they've now held four opponents to below 25% shooting on 2s, and no other team in the nation has done it more than once.  But Southern Utah was like 11-21 from 3 at one point.  And it wasn't one of those games where they were just hitting bad shots, they were good looks.

Eventually MSU just sold out on running them off the line and leaving their bigs on islands to block shots.  They did.  But they can't trust them to do that against better teams.

Granted the way the Big Ten looks, I'm not sure how many good teams they'll play.  Purdue might be it?  Minnesota, Maryland and Michigan look like tourney teams, but not top 25 type teams.
Just interested as I don't get much time to watch teams other than Purdue...
You say the interior D is good. Are you talking specifically about the bigs / in the paint? Or their D on drives off the dribble? Or defending the entry pass?
Just wondering, as the game in East Lansing is undoubtedly the biggest game on Purdue's schedule. And I'm not sure there's anyone in the NCAA who can defend Haas on the block. His game has gotten better this year now that he's "the guy" and it was pretty darn good last year. We obviously like to work the inside-out game, and although we've got some shooters, we like to get the ball into the big man. 
So understanding what you think of that matchup is intriguing to me...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 11, 2017, 11:20:33 PM
They haven't done as much ball entry denial, relying more on their shot blocking and shot altering.  They are long, and they are deep, which means they can also play without fear of foul trouble.  The communication and help defense has been phenomenal.

They've already held four opponents to below 25% shooting on two point attempts.  No other team in the country has done that more than once.

MSU is allowing opponents to shoot 31% inside the arc.  Next best is Cincinnati at 38%.  The Athletic posted a graphic that I now can't find at just how far MSU is ahead of everyone else in the nation at that.

At their current pace they'll break the school record for blocked shots with nine games to spare.

Perimeter defense, particularly from Winston is lacking.  They've gotten more aggressive at just running guys off the line and taking their chances on the bigs cleaning up the mess, and that has actually worked well.  Guys drilling mid range jumpers, which college players struggle mightily with, is the only thing that will get them out of that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on December 12, 2017, 12:48:41 AM
After the collapse against OSU last week, it was great to see the team have a great comeback against UCLA despite not playing well. That potentially saved the season. Simpson coming through with some great shots in the second half was encouraging.

Apparently Texas is down a starter, so maybe they can the upset in Austin tomorrow night.... If not, the next few games will provide time for Brooks, Livers, and Poole to get more comfortable, since they'll need to play better (and more minutes) in Big Ten play, but also for Abdur-Rahkman and Robinson to find their shot and regain their confidence.... As for Matthews, I don't understand how he's so bad at free throw shooting despite being able to hit tough and critical 3s and long 2s.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: GopherRock on December 12, 2017, 07:39:11 AM
Gophers survived Drake last night. 

I watched enough of the game last night to see that this team has a major attitude problem. The body language was awful, I can't tell if they're even trying to run set pieces, and it took one hellacious run at the end to win. Pitino has his hands full. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 12, 2017, 04:45:26 PM
Yep, I flip/flopped #3 and #4.  My bad.  
I get what you are saying about looking ahead.  I'm definitely not planning on a tournament appearance or buying a new TV, just trying to get an idea of where the team is and what they need to do.  
Still probably 2 weeks away from finalizing tiers, but looking at the composite rankings, MSU is #2 and Purdue is #6, then you drop all the way to Maryland at #35.
KenPom is pretty similar with MSU #2, Purdue #8, then down to Maryland at #37.  Maybe a blank 2nd tier, like we had a blank 5th tier above Rutgers a couple years ago?
Then not sure how to put the bottom 5.  They all seem pretty similar.
Composite has: #84 Nebraska; #89 Illinois; #92 Rutgers; #108 Indiana; #129 Iowa
KenPom: #81 Iowa; #82 Indiana; #90 Nebraska; #98 Illinois; #106 Rutgers
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 12, 2017, 10:05:42 PM
Texas is a complete mess offensively without Jones.  Looks like Michigan's solid bounce back week will continue
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on December 13, 2017, 12:37:52 AM
Texas didn't play well, and the refs admittedly made some bad calls that went Michigan's way for a change, but in the end Michigan made some critical shots and free throws while Texas didn't. Needless to say I feel much better about the team than I did a week ago.

Wagner rolled his ankle, but the next three games (Detroit, Jacksonville, Alabama A&M) are all bad teams so he should just rest to give Teske more minutes along with giving Davis some minutes.

Michigan still needs to get better on offense as it relates to shooting, so hopefully they'll get some confidence in the next 3 games, which shouldn't be close.... The defense is actually as good can be expected except for some dumb fouls, especially if they continue to get defensive rebounds like they did tonight.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 13, 2017, 11:41:41 AM
UW with another critical game tonight against Western Kentucky.

Western Kentucky beat Purdue so they are no slouch. We'll see what the kiddies are made of tonight.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 13, 2017, 03:21:13 PM
Louisville appealing their sanctions (https://sports.yahoo.com/louisville-meets-ncaa-appeal-basketball-sanctions-182711547--ncaab.html) from the hooker scandal. Just when you think it'd be time to try to maintain a VERY low profile, they're trying to poke the bear. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 13, 2017, 03:31:50 PM
Louisville appealing their sanctions (https://sports.yahoo.com/louisville-meets-ncaa-appeal-basketball-sanctions-182711547--ncaab.html) from the hooker scandal. Just when you think it'd be time to try to maintain a VERY low profile, they're trying to poke the bear.
They see almost everyone else getting off light - or getting off completely (UNC) - and probably think why not try?

They did fire the coach, so right there they admit to something...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on December 13, 2017, 11:43:28 PM
UW with another critical game tonight against Western Kentucky.

Western Kentucky beat Purdue so they are no slouch. We'll see what the kiddies are made of tonight.
Both teams shot real well, but UW holds on with a weird call. Lotta swings. This is gonna be a weird one this year. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 14, 2017, 05:45:19 PM
Both teams shot real well, but UW holds on with a weird call. Lotta swings. This is gonna be a weird one this year.
https://www.barstoolsports.com/barstoolu/we-witnessed-one-of-the-worst-calls-in-college-basketball-to-end-the-wisconsinwku-game/?_branch_match_id=402873909664798863
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 16, 2017, 08:22:46 PM
Unlike the 2007 Michigan FB team, OSU hoops defeated Appalachian State tonight. 

Some practical jokester yanked the fire alarm during the second half, creating quite a delay. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: nuwildcat on December 16, 2017, 10:01:49 PM
heartbreaking loss for Nebraska ..... oh so close
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 18, 2017, 08:21:14 AM
I was quite busy this weekend but noticed some scores that I found interesting:
I hope these are signs that things are improving!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 18, 2017, 08:24:39 AM
Still probably 2 weeks away from finalizing tiers, but looking at the composite rankings, MSU is #2 and Purdue is #6, then you drop all the way to Maryland at #35.
KenPom is pretty similar with MSU #2, Purdue #8, then down to Maryland at #37.  Maybe a blank 2nd tier, like we had a blank 5th tier above Rutgers a couple years ago?
  • MSU, Purdue
  • -
  • Maryland, Minnesota, OSU, PSU, UM
  • UW, NW
  • ?
  • ?
Then not sure how to put the bottom 5.  They all seem pretty similar.
Composite has: #84 Nebraska; #89 Illinois; #92 Rutgers; #108 Indiana; #129 Iowa
KenPom: #81 Iowa; #82 Indiana; #90 Nebraska; #98 Illinois; #106 Rutgers
I think those bottom five just got even harder to assess.  Iowa is already weird, best of the group in KenPom, worst in composite.  RU and IU were the next two worst in the composite but now suddenly have wins over ranked teams.  For now, I'd say all of them in one tier then see how it works out.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on December 18, 2017, 09:56:09 AM
I was quite busy this weekend but noticed some scores that I found interesting:
  • Rutgers took out a ranked Seton Hall team
  • Indiana took out a ranked ND team
  • Nebraska nearly upset Kansas
I hope these are signs that things are improving!
heartbreaking loss for Nebraska ..... oh so close
I still don't like the lack of movement without the ball by our coaches offense.... I think that is the reason UNL gets close, but it doesn't translate into continued good play or consistent play.  I'm not sold on UNL improving until they actually put together multiple games where they team performs well. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 18, 2017, 10:14:04 AM
I think those bottom five just got even harder to assess.  Iowa is already weird, best of the group in KenPom, worst in composite.  RU and IU were the next two worst in the composite but now suddenly have wins over ranked teams.  For now, I'd say all of them in one tier then see how it works out.  
Makes sense to me, then sort it out.  I don't think I'd PICK Wisconsin or Northwestern on the road over any of them right now, so that feels right.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 18, 2017, 02:24:50 PM
Purdue for once is actually looking good at this time of year in RPI -- sitting at 15th. Usually the non-con SOS kills us, but this year has been a pretty solid OOC slate. Even the loss to WKU doesn't hurt us as much as they're currently sitting 71st in RPI, and Tennessee is 11th so that looks like a quality loss too.

#6 in KenPom, #3 in Sagarin, #2 in BPI. 

And despite the obligatory mention of losing Biggie--clockwork, like the TV announcers mentioning Isaac Haas' size 22 shoes--here's a very positive article about Purdue's team (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/despite-losing-caleb-swanigan-purdue-producing-like-a-team-with-top-10-potential/). 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 18, 2017, 04:58:21 PM
Projected standings half way through the B1G season (after the games on Thursday, January 25):
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 18, 2017, 10:44:11 PM
Good luck figuring out Indiana.  Beat ND, get run off the court by IPFW
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 19, 2017, 01:36:59 PM
At least for now, the tiers are:
How this works:

Thus far there have been three upsets:

Here are the projections based on the current tiers:
TeamnoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoHomenoHomenoHomenoHomeRR-WRR-Lmiss-Wmiss-LProj-WProj-LRR%Proj%Diff+Var-VarVarConf-WConf-L
MSUMUNLPSUPUIOWAMNNUtOSU25171180    0.962     1.000     0.038 0 0 0       18        -  
PurdueUNLNUtOSUPSUILLIUIOWAMSU25180171    0.962     0.944   (0.017)0 0 0       17         1
tOSUMSUUMDUNLILLUWNUMNPU161053117    0.615     0.611   (0.004)1 0 1       12         6
PSUMMNRUUWILLIUMSUPU161035135    0.615     0.722     0.107 0 (1)(1)      12         6
UMDIOWAMNRUUWILLIUUNLtOSU161062108    0.615     0.556   (0.060)0 0 0       10         8
MILLIUMNRUMSUUNLPSUUW161062108    0.615     0.556   (0.060)0 0 0       10         8
MinnyILLMSUtOSURUUMDMPSUUW161062108    0.615     0.556   (0.060)0 (1)(1)        9         9
NUILLMSUUNLtOSUIUIOWAPURU111535810    0.423     0.444     0.021 0 0 0         8       10
UWIUMMNtOSUIOWAUMDPSURU111544711    0.423     0.389   (0.034)1 (1)0         7       11
UNLIUIOWAUMDMMSUNUtOSUPU62017513    0.231     0.278     0.047 1 0 1         6       12
RUIUIOWANUUWUMDMMNPSU62008612    0.231     0.333     0.103 0 0 0         6       12
ILLIOWAUMDPSUPUMMNNUtOSU62017513    0.231     0.278     0.047 0 0 0         5       13
IUUMDNUPSUPUMUNLRUUW62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)0 0 0         3       15
IowaMSUNUPUUWILUMDUNLRU62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)0 0 0         3       15

Explanation of columns:

Notes:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 19, 2017, 01:56:30 PM
Based on the above projections the B1G Tournament seeds would be:

The matchups in Madison Square Garden would be as follows:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 19, 2017, 05:45:45 PM
Heh, at his current pace Jaren Jackson, even assuming he is a one and done, will finish the regular season 7th in MSU school history in blocked shots for a career.  With a decent tourney run in NYC and the NCAAs, he could get to 5th.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on December 21, 2017, 11:45:34 AM
Eden Ewing kicked off the Purdue team for "violation of team rules".  He was a Juco transfer who joined this past offseason but hadn't really seen much time on the floor except in mop-up duty.
Not sure if this is a "puff puff" situation or grades (finals were just completed last week).  May never find out.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 21, 2017, 01:14:12 PM
Eden Ewing kicked off the Purdue team for "violation of team rules".  He was a Juco transfer who joined this past offseason but hadn't really seen much time on the floor except in mop-up duty.
Not sure if this is a "puff puff" situation or grades (finals were just completed last week).  May never find out.
Did not see that one coming... I have to think it was beyond just "puff puff", as I haven't seen Painter toss a kid for a first offense on that one. 
Interesting as well that he's been dismissed from the team but I haven't seen anything suggesting he was dismissed from the university. So I wouldn't think it's due to severe legal problems...
That said, he wasn't getting any minutes, so I suppose it isn't a big loss. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 21, 2017, 04:00:59 PM
A pretty boring stretch of BB games of late and coming up today and tomorrow:  
On Tuesday:
On Wednesday:
Tonight:

It should get more interesting on Friday with NU/OU and Iowa/CU.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on December 23, 2017, 08:39:47 AM
Some KenPom power rankings about a third of the way through the season:

1. MSU (2)
2. Purdue (5)
3. Michigan (33)
4. Maryland (34)
5. PSU (41)
6. Minnesota (42)
7. OSU (45)
8. Northwestern (54)
9. Wisconsin (68)
10. Iowa (73)
11. Indiana (87)
12. Nebraska (90)
13. Illinois (95)
14. Rutgers (97)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 26, 2017, 11:11:55 AM
Some KenPom power rankings about a third of the way through the season:
1. MSU (2)
2. Purdue (5)
3. Michigan (33)
4. Maryland (34)
5. PSU (41)
6. Minnesota (42)
7. OSU (45)
8. Northwestern (54)
9. Wisconsin (68)
10. Iowa (73)
11. Indiana (87)
12. Nebraska (90)
13. Illinois (95)
14. Rutgers (97)
Looking at the conference as a whole:
The large gap between the top-2 and everyone else is interesting.  ELA has pointed this out before.  
It appears that we do not have any just plain awful teams.  Nebraska, Illinois, and Rutgers in the 90's certainly don't look good, but they aren't awful.  
It seems to me that the seven teams from Michigan through Wisconsin are all close enough to the bubble that any one of them could be in or out with just a relatively minor improvement or decline.  
ESPN's latest (12/21) Bracketology:

It could make for a really interesting B1G Tournament at MSG in NYC because we could have around half a dozen teams somewhere close to the bubble.  

For my team:
I'm thrilled.  We were NOT expecting a tournament appearance at all this year and as of right now the Buckeyes have the look of a bubble team.  That is much better than I anticipated.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on December 28, 2017, 04:57:11 PM
Ugh, Maryland loses Jackson for the season.  Looking more and more like a four bid league.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on December 28, 2017, 06:19:55 PM
Jackson has been a non-factor and a liability since he's been on the court this year.  Perhaps it was his shoulder, and why he's getting surgery, but he has done NOTHING since the beginning of the year.

He certainly hasn't lived up to the NBA hype prognosticators have lamented since the start of the year.

He hasn't played a game in weeks anyway.

I guess he'll be back next year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 01, 2018, 12:16:54 PM
Lost Bender for the year too. 

That hurts depth. B1G conspiracy.  :57:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 02, 2018, 12:14:04 PM
I updated the projections now that (I think) all of the OOC games are complete:
TeamnoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoHomenoHomenoHomenoHomeRR-WRR-Lmiss-Wmiss-LProj-WProj-LRR%Proj%Diff+Var-VarVarConf-WConf-LOOC-WOOC-LProjT-WProjT-L
MSUMUNLPSUPUIOWAMNNUtOSU25171180    0.962     1.000     0.038 0 0 0       18        -   121        30           1
PurdueUNLNUtOSUPSUILLIUIOWAMSU25180171    0.962     0.944   (0.017)0 0 0       17         1 112        28           3
tOSUMSUUMDUNLILLUWNUMNPU161053117    0.615     0.611   (0.004)1 0 1       12         6 94        21         10
PSUMMNRUUWILLIUMSUPU161035135    0.615     0.722     0.107 0 (1)(1)      12         6 103        22           9
UMDIOWAMNRUUWILLIUUNLtOSU161062108    0.615     0.556   (0.060)0 0 0       10         8 112        21         10
MILLIUMNRUMSUUNLPSUUW161062108    0.615     0.556   (0.060)0 0 0       10         8 112        21         10
MinnyILLMSUtOSURUUMDMPSUUW161062108    0.615     0.556   (0.060)0 (1)(1)        9         9 112        20         11
NUILLMSUUNLtOSUIUIOWAPURU111535810    0.423     0.444     0.021 0 0 0         8       10 94        17         14
UWIUMMNtOSUIOWAUMDPSURU111544711    0.423     0.389   (0.034)1 (1)0         7       11 76        14         17
UNLIUIOWAUMDMMSUNUtOSUPU62017513    0.231     0.278     0.047 1 0 1         6       12 94        15         16
RUIUIOWANUUWUMDMMNPSU62008612    0.231     0.333     0.103 0 0 0         6       12 103        16         15
ILLIOWAUMDPSUPUMMNNUtOSU62017513    0.231     0.278     0.047 0 0 0         5       13 103        15         16
IUUMDNUPSUPUMUNLRUUW62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)0 0 0         3       15 75        10         20
IowaMSUNUPUUWILUMDUNLRU62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)0 0 0         3       15 94        12         19

If these are anywhere close to right, we should have nearly a half-dozen bubble teams playing in the B1G Tournament at MSG in NYC.  The five teams between 22-9 (PSU) and 20-11 (MN) would all be on the bubble.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 02, 2018, 05:10:38 PM
With conference play beginning in earnest, probably have enough data to begin posting the weekly composite computer poll, 46 rankings right now

1.Duke
2.Villanova
3.MICHIGAN STATE
4.PURDUE
5.Kansas
6.North Carolina
7.Arizona State
8.Xavier
9.Virginia
10.Oklahoma
11.West Virginia
12.Arkansas
13.Texas Tech
14.Texas A&M
15.Arizona
16.Wichita State
17.TCU
18.Clemson
19.Gonzaga
20.Seton Hall
21.Tennessee
22.Miami
23.Cincinnati
24.Kentucky
25.Florida State
-
33.Maryland
34.Michigan
39.Ohio State
45.Minnesota
60.Penn State
65.Northwestern
77.Illinois
81.Wisconsin
85.Nebraska
97.Iowa
101.Indiana
127.Rutgers
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 02, 2018, 05:20:54 PM
With conference play beginning in earnest, probably have enough data to begin posting the weekly composite computer poll, 46 rankings right now
1.Duke
2.Villanova
3.MICHIGAN STATE
4.PURDUE
5.Kansas
6.North Carolina
7.Arizona State
8.Xavier
9.Virginia
10.Oklahoma
11.West Virginia
12.Arkansas
13.Texas Tech
14.Texas A&M
15.Arizona
16.Wichita State
17.TCU
18.Clemson
19.Gonzaga
20.Seton Hall
21.Tennessee
22.Miami
23.Cincinnati
24.Kentucky
25.Florida State
-
33.Maryland
34.Michigan
39.Ohio State
45.Minnesota
60.Penn State
65.Northwestern
77.Illinois
81.Wisconsin
85.Nebraska
97.Iowa
101.Indiana
127.Rutgers
This mostly lines up with our current tiers but some adjustments will undoubtedly be needed.  I figure we'll hold through this week and weekend then look at it on Monday.  
Current tiers (with +/- upsets):
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 02, 2018, 07:04:29 PM
I know you're watching Badge
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 02, 2018, 07:09:56 PM
Time for B1G officiating to kick in. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 02, 2018, 07:33:31 PM
This mostly lines up with our current tiers but some adjustments will undoubtedly be needed.  I figure we'll hold through this week and weekend then look at it on Monday.  
Current tiers (with +/- upsets):
  • MSU, PU
  • blank
  • tOSU +1, UMD, M, PSU -1, MN -1
  • NU, UW
  • UNL +1, RU, ILL, IU, IA

Looks like Purdue and Michigan St are elite, while everyone else is extra mediocre. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 02, 2018, 07:42:58 PM

With Dayton going off the rails this year, it looks like OSU is now only behind Xavier and Cincinnati within the State. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 03, 2018, 07:13:48 AM
I know you're watching Badge
I saw the start and the end. I was watching a special on RUSH, how 2112 and Moving Pictures propelled them into a super machine and how the records came together. Anyway..

It was great to see UW get a win over Indiana - the 16th in a row in Madison.

Who woulda thought that could happen 20 years ago?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 03, 2018, 07:55:32 AM
Northwestern in some real trouble now too.  15 point loss to Nebraska at home?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on January 03, 2018, 10:36:33 AM
I'm still not sure what to think of this years UNL team.   Over the last couple of years, each time I feel like they are turning a corner, they take a step back.   This year's team seems to be taking small steps towards that corner without major glitches.  I'm hopeful, but I still can't trust. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 03, 2018, 10:42:11 AM
Northwestern in some real trouble now too.  15 point loss to Nebraska at home?
NU is missing McIntosh and will be for some time (2 weeks??). The good news for him and them is that there is no structural damage in the knee. Missing him really hurts NU though.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 03, 2018, 10:45:09 AM
I'm still not sure what to think of this years UNL team.   Over the last couple of years, each time I feel like they are turning a corner, they take a step back.   This year's team seems to be taking small steps towards that corner without major glitches.  I'm hopeful, but I still can't trust.  
They certainly feel more dangerous than they have in years past... I'm not sure they're bottom-tier. But as you say, it'll probably take a few weeks of conference play before we can be sure.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 03, 2018, 10:49:59 AM
I was just looking at the Badgers' schedule for the next month and I found:

01/05 @Rutgers
01/09 @Nebraska
01/16 @Purdue
01/19 Illinois
01/23 @Iowa
01/26 @Michigan State
01/29 Nebraska

That's a whole lot of "@" in one month.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 03, 2018, 10:58:01 AM
I was just looking at the Badgers' schedule for the next month and I found:

01/05 @Rutgers
01/09 @Nebraska
01/16 @Purdue
01/19 Illinois
01/23 @Iowa
01/26 @Michigan State
01/29 Nebraska

That's a whole lot of "@" in one month.

Yeah, we mentioned that back when the schedule was released, how weirdly lopsided it is for a lot of teams.  Everyone still plays 9 and 9, so it just means a backloaded home schedule.  MSU's is the opposite.  Off the top of my head I think it's like 7 of the first 9 are at home, and 7 of the last 9 are on the road.  Not sure what the hell Delany is letting them do to the schedules this year, but it makes no sense.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 03, 2018, 11:01:09 AM
NU is missing McIntosh and will be for some time (2 weeks??). The good news for him and them is that there is no structural damage in the knee. Missing him really hurts NU though.

Wasn't that their first game without him though?  They were already struggling pretty badly, although that certainly doesn't help things.
This is probably their easiest stretch of the Big Ten schedule too (NEB, @psu, MINN, @indiana, OSU, PSU)
After that, things get really rough, starting with 5 of 6 on the road (@minn, @mich, @uw, MICH, @umd, @rutgers, MSU, UMD, WIS, @iowa)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 03, 2018, 11:03:44 AM
I honestly don't know. I missed a lot of things with all of the holiday parties and being in LA for a week. I'm just getting caught up to a lot of things now. I didn't see a lick of football until I got on the plane to come home Saturday (PSU).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 03, 2018, 11:22:28 AM
The only upset last night was Nebraska winning in Evanston.  That slightly changes the projections:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 03, 2018, 12:49:43 PM
I was just looking at the Badgers' schedule for the next month and I found:

01/05 @Rutgers
01/09 @Nebraska
01/16 @Purdue
01/19 Illinois
01/23 @Iowa
01/26 @Michigan State
01/29 Nebraska

That's a whole lot of "@" in one month.
How does this impact Wisconsin's chances to improve their way into continuing their NCAA streak?  
My thoughts:
It probably helps.  The Badgers play MSU and Purdue twice each.  They travel to both in January and host both in February.  As the Badgers look right now, it probably doesn't matter one bit where those games are played so getting the more difficult road games out of the way in January and holding the (potentially) easier home games until February maintains the possibility that Wisconsin could improve enough to pull off an upset or two at home late in the season.  
We currently project the Badgers to finish 7-11/14-17 with the remaining games on their schedule as follows (with projection):
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 03, 2018, 01:31:56 PM
The problem is that Wisconsin has absolutely no good OOC wins.  Their best win is what?......Western Kentucky?  Even if they manage to get two upset wins over MSU and Purdue at home, that puts them at 16-15 with only 3 top 50 wins (assuming they beat Michigan at home and Michigan maintains their current ranking level).  They would probably still need at least 3 more wins in the BTT to even get on the bubble.
That's a pretty tall order.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 03, 2018, 02:03:28 PM
The problem is that Wisconsin has absolutely no good OOC wins.  Their best win is what?......Western Kentucky?  
That's their best win*, yes. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 03, 2018, 02:07:44 PM
I'm still not sure what to think of this years UNL team.   Over the last couple of years, each time I feel like they are turning a corner, they take a step back.   This year's team seems to be taking small steps towards that corner without major glitches.  I'm hopeful, but I still can't trust.  
I haven't even been hopeful the past couple seasons
was hopeful when Miles was hired
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 03, 2018, 04:23:38 PM
The problem is that Wisconsin has absolutely no good OOC wins.  Their best win is what?......Western Kentucky?  Even if they manage to get two upset wins over MSU and Purdue at home, that puts them at 16-15 with only 3 top 50 wins (assuming they beat Michigan at home and Michigan maintains their current ranking level).  They would probably still need at least 3 more wins in the BTT to even get on the bubble.
That's a pretty tall order.
In the tier system we currently project them to finish 14-17 so you are right, wins over PU and MSU at home would only get them to 16-15 and that probably isn't enough without winning the BTT.  
I believe that 14 is the most losses ever for an at-large team so I was thinking that they would need to get to at least 18-13 and then a decent run in the BTT.  
To get there they would need to win all of their projected wins plus four of their projected losses.  Here are some possibilities:
They have other projected losses that they could flip but those are the last four and two in January that look reasonably winnable.  

It is a very tall order because they need no upset losses and four of those six to flip to wins.  They have almost zero margin for error.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 03, 2018, 09:24:40 PM
I wholeheartedly believe, with the depth loss, and this idiotic schedule, we'll finish in the bottom 1/4 of the league. 

Any higher, and I'd be surprised. 

I don't see us making the tournament, unless the rest of the B1G is just that bad. 

I don't see it, because every team we play, has the best nights of their careers....(looking at you Mathias). 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on January 03, 2018, 10:34:01 PM
I know this is B1g board and all, but Marquette's Markus Howard set a school record w 52 pts, 11 3s tonight vs the Friars.  I think the old record was 44 by Tony Smith vs Wisconsin in 90 and Mike Moran about 60 yrs ago vs Creighton.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 03, 2018, 11:17:34 PM
No surprises tonight, projections remain unchanged. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 04, 2018, 08:40:30 AM
Not sure if this counts as college or pro, or if we already have a Lithuanian basketball thread, but ESPN sent Jeff Goodman to Lithuania to cover the Ball brothers' first PRACTICE.

I think in the end he may end up costing them money, because the youngest (who was a the best of the 3 IIRC) may now never see the NBA, but for now Lavar's "marketing" seems to be paying off.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on January 04, 2018, 09:33:45 AM
Not sure if this counts as college or pro, or if we already have a Lithuanian basketball thread, but ESPN sent Jeff Goodman to Lithuania to cover the Ball brothers' first PRACTICE.

I think in the end he may end up costing them money, because the youngest (who was a the best of the 3 IIRC) may now never see the NBA, but for now Lavar's "marketing" seems to be paying off.
Even TMZ thinks ESPN is losing credibility..... jeeze..
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 04, 2018, 10:02:36 AM
I'm excited for tonight's Ohio State/Iowa game.  In the tiers we project Ohio State to win but the wiseguys in Vegas say "Iowa -1" and they tend to know what they are talking about.  

It is WAY too early in the season to call this a "must win", but we currently project Ohio State to finish 12-6/21-10 so they don't have much room for error.  If the Buckeyes lose this one, they'll likely need to win a tougher game later this season to make up for it.  

Additionally, a win here by the Buckeyes would make Sunday's game against the Spartans in Columbus very interesting.  The #1 Spartans are 2-0 and favored by 13.5 tonight against Maryland so they are likely to come into Columbus still #1 and a half game behind Purdue (hosts Nebraska on Saturday) in the B1G.  If the Buckeyes win in Iowa City then they will be tied with MSU a half game behind the Boilermakers when the MSU/tOSU game tips off on Sunday afternoon.  

I'm not saying that the Buckeyes have a realistic shot at upsetting the Spartans, just that I've enjoyed seeing my team atop the B1G standings for the last month and the MSU/tOSU game is a lot more fun/interesting if it is for the lead in the conference.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 04, 2018, 10:17:55 AM
https://twitter.com/BarstoolBigCat/status/948738891267354629
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 04, 2018, 11:07:11 AM
To somewhat explain what I was getting at in my last post:

The Buckeyes are currently 2-0/11-4 with 16 conference games to go.  IMHO, they need to get to about 12-6/21-10 so they need to go at least 10-6 in their 16 remaining games.  Here are their 16 remaining games roughly in order of what I think are most likely wins to least likely wins:

So basically, in order to make the tournament, the Buckeyes need to win the first 10 listed games.  In theory they could lose the first six and win the bottom ten but that is obviously pretty unlikely.  On a practical level they should not lose any of the first seven and they are extremely unlikely to win any of the bottom three.  They may suffer or pull off an upset here or there but as long as those offset it is pretty much a wash.  

The most interesting games of the season, to me, are the ones that I bolded from #8 through #13 because those are games where I feel like anything could happen.  I wouldn't be completely shocked if the Buckeyes go anywhere from 5-1 to 1-5 in those games and that is a huge difference because, assuming that the team wins the first seven and loses the last three that is the difference between:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 04, 2018, 09:10:25 PM
Unlike football, OSU remains undefeated in Big Ten play by defeating Iowa on the road. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 04, 2018, 09:12:31 PM
Buckeyes are 3-0 and tied with Purdue for first in the B1G!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 04, 2018, 09:21:47 PM
K Jr has the game in hand with the refs in his corner, as per usual. 

Key fouls against the right players, and the "art of the flop" in year 2 of the dookie handbook, has clinched it by the end of the first half. 

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 04, 2018, 09:27:46 PM
What mcw is saying, in his way, is that MSU is about to join the Boilermakers and BUCKEYES in a three-way tie for FIRST PLACE in the B1G.

The Buckeyes/Spartans game in Columbus will be for at least a share of the lead in the B1G!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on January 04, 2018, 09:32:08 PM
K Jr has the game in hand with the refs in his corner, as per usual.

Key fouls against the right players, and the "art of the flop" in year 2 of the dookie handbook, has clinched it by the end of the first half.
Our second team would beat Maryland by 15
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 04, 2018, 09:36:47 PM
Loving this!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 04, 2018, 09:40:36 PM
Our second team would beat Maryland by 15
With the refs on your side, there's no doubt. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on January 04, 2018, 09:45:09 PM
With the refs on your side, there's no doubt.
Your boys are getting worked. Just waving the white flag. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 04, 2018, 09:47:44 PM
Your boys are getting worked. Just waving the white flag.
K Jr has done enough waiving of those white and black shirts. 
His green, floor-slapping, flopping, Dook wannabes have those stripes on their side every night. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 04, 2018, 09:52:34 PM
Don't get me wrong Sparty. They deserve it. They are the best team in the nation. 

Said so after the mirror match of brothers earlier in the year. 

It's just seeing K Jr pull his K impersonation, and see the game change on a dime by the Zebras, is suspect. 

On topic, I think it's time for Turgeon to be shown the door. Top 20 classes year after year, and he can't beat top ranked schools. 

Gary did so much more with less. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 05, 2018, 06:52:51 AM
https://twitter.com/BarstoolBigCat/status/948738891267354629
If I was little Ricky I wouldn't let my dad show up. Not a good look.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 05, 2018, 08:09:00 AM
No surprises last night so the projections remain unchanged.  Between now and Sunday night each team in the B1G will play one game such that by Sunday night all B1G teams will have played four conference games except Maryland and Iowa which will have played five.  I intend to review tiers on Monday.  Projections for this weekend:
I'm doubtful on that last one and think that RU may need to move down a tier but we'll see.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 05, 2018, 08:10:33 AM
Is UW even gonna be able to make it to Rutgers to play?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 05, 2018, 10:41:17 AM
Thank God for the refs in that 30 point win.  Don't know how we'd do it without them.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 05, 2018, 11:48:39 AM
Thank GOD for the refs in that 30 point win.  Don't know how we'd do it without them.
You know it. That was the catalyst that started it all. It was a very competitive game until they stepped in. Good job Tom Krzyzeski.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 05, 2018, 11:53:01 AM
Tough to blame Turgeon.  Relying on guys kicked out of previous schools for sexual misconduct is a tough method to sustain for Art Briles Jr.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 05, 2018, 12:21:40 PM
Sounds like Reggie Lynch is done after being found responsible for sexual assault.  There are multiple accusers who have come forward now too.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 05, 2018, 02:58:18 PM
We'll update tiers on Monday but as of now I'm thinking that Nebraska should move up one and perhaps Rutgers down one.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 05, 2018, 03:06:52 PM
We'll update tiers on Monday but as of now I'm thinking that Nebraska should move up one and perhaps Rutgers down one.  Thoughts?
Yeah, Knights really fell back after the first 5 or so weeks of the year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 05, 2018, 04:01:07 PM
With conference play beginning in earnest, probably have enough data to begin posting the weekly composite computer poll, 46 rankings right now
3.MICHIGAN STATE
4.PURDUE
33.Maryland
34.Michigan
39.Ohio State
45.Minnesota
60.Penn State
65.Northwestern
77.Illinois
81.Wisconsin
85.Nebraska
97.Iowa
101.Indiana
127.Rutgers
You posted this last week on Tuesday, January 2.  I hope it the update will be available for discussion of tiers on Monday, January 8.  
I'm assuming Rutgers will lose at home to Wisconsin and if so, that will justify moving Rutgers down into their own tier, tier-6.  
After you posted this Nebraska won at Northwestern.  That, coupled with Nebraska's earlier home win over Minnesota probably justifies moving the Cornhuskers up into tier-4.  
It is weird that this has Illinois all the way up at #77 (suggesting a move up to tier-4) but Max's last KenPom post has them WAY down suggesting holding them as is.  Similarly, this list suggests that Penn State should probably be demoted to tier-4 but Max's last KenPom list has them as the #5 team in the league.  
Frankly, there are not a lot of terribly interesting games this weekend.  Per this list:

With the exceptions of MSU @ tOSU and UW @ RU, the better team is hosting in all of the games this weekend.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 05, 2018, 04:04:38 PM
We'll update tiers on Monday but as of now I'm thinking that Nebraska should move up one and perhaps Rutgers down one.  Thoughts?
don't fall for it.  UNL will show their true colors soon enough
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 05, 2018, 04:09:02 PM
don't fall for it.  UNL will show their true colors soon enough
They sure look good so far.  We had projected them to be 0-3 at this point but they beat MN at home and NU on the road to get to 2-1.  We'll see.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 05, 2018, 04:37:12 PM
yah, a couple years ago they started 3-0 or 4-0 in conference

then the wheels fell off
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 05, 2018, 09:06:01 PM
I may have been a bit too hasty to suggest demoting Rutgers. Or is Wisconsin really THAT bad?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 05, 2018, 10:43:10 PM
Right now UW IS that bad. They are playing a lot of walk-on players to compensate for injuries. 

It's a lost season as far as I'm concerned. They will take their lumps and be better (a lot) next season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on January 06, 2018, 04:19:50 PM
Livers' emergence over the past two games is has been huge for Michigan. It was good see Wagner have a good second half after having two early fouls (thankfully the ref's incompetence both ways didn't matter). Poole had one of his best games, too, which is significant. Simpson has emerged as the top PG both due to his own strong play (much improved offensively), but it's been disappointing that Brooks has been inconsistent and Simmons' limited minutes today showed why he had fallen out of the rotation, so I doubt we'll see him much the rest of the year.

Biggest home game of the year against Purdue on Tuesday will show if this team can be a Big Ten contender, then going Michigan State is the toughest game of the season.....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 06, 2018, 09:01:31 PM
With Marylands injuries, and Northwestern and Minnesota being major disappointments, it's really trending towards being a three bid league.

MSU and Purdue are both great, and UM looks like a solid tourney team.  Kind of dependent on OSU being legit.

Kind of a bummer, Izzos best team since 2001, and there is a serious lack of regular season games worth getting excited for.  Not that they won't drop a couple.  Road games in conference play are always a test.  But they aren't the type you look forward to.  Particularly with Purdue and UM both being one plays this year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 07, 2018, 10:34:22 AM
Continuing on with what ELA just posted, MSU's game this afternoon is probably their third toughest B1G game this year and they are favored by 8.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 07, 2018, 11:48:54 AM
Continuing on with what ELA just posted, MSU's game this afternoon is probably their third toughest B1G game this year and they are favored by 8.
Third?  I would say second behind only Purdue at home.  No trips to WAL or AA.
And my point isn't that MSU won't lose a few, simply that they lack a big game feel.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 07, 2018, 12:38:25 PM
WAL? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 07, 2018, 04:19:52 PM
WAL-MART.

Everyone needs Khakis. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 07, 2018, 04:51:09 PM
Must be the Badgers












[th]Acronym[/th]
[th]Definition[/th]

WAL
Sierra Leone (international vehicle ID)

WAL
Wide Angle Lens

WAL
Write Ahead Log

WAL
Walloon

WAL
Weighted Average Life

WAL
Wisconsin Association of Lakes (Madison, WI)

WAL
WATS Access Line

WAL
Wright Avionics Laboratory

WAL
Wireless Application Layer

WAL
Watertown Arsenal Laboratories (Massachusetts)

WAL
Wallops Island Airfield, Chincoteague, Virginia (airport code)

WAL
Women as Leaders (various organizations)


.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 07, 2018, 05:22:02 PM
Competitive first half in Columbus
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 07, 2018, 05:26:41 PM
Wow!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 07, 2018, 05:27:45 PM
Wow is right. It was like a 1 point game with a minute left when i posted. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 07, 2018, 06:21:29 PM
Buckeyes with an 18 point lead at the under 4 timeout over #1.

I didn't see this coming!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 07, 2018, 06:22:32 PM

I cannot believe what I am seeing. 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSvDhseVwAEoKyp.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 07, 2018, 06:30:02 PM
I wonder where Bates-Diop lands in the draft
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 07, 2018, 06:37:16 PM

Unlike the 2017 Michigan FB team, OSU Hoops defeats Sparty!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 07, 2018, 06:38:19 PM
Well that's a hell of a statement win for your first place Buckeyes
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 07, 2018, 06:42:38 PM

The Buckeyes remain unbeaten in Big Ten play, tied for first place atop the Big Ten standings. 

Toss in the Women's OT victory @Michigan, and it's a pretty good day for OSU Hoops. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on January 07, 2018, 08:12:28 PM
colored me stunned. I would like to take credit for this OSU victory today. I told my church buddies "There is NO WAY osu beats sparty."
Didn't even watch the game, was playing cards with the kids, and I get 3 texts in quick succession.

Go Bucks!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 07, 2018, 10:06:39 PM
Refs give Maryland the, "make-up for crap calls last game", against Iowa, doing everything they could to help the Terps win.

How about returning the favor when they visit College Park instead, okay?  Thanks.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 07, 2018, 10:34:37 PM
When walk on white dudes are banking in half court shots, you can probably move on with your day.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 07, 2018, 10:37:54 PM
Izzo screwed it up badly too.  Yeah, it was a missed call, but that's a bad tine to get T'd up.  And using your depth is fine when guys are hitting shots, even in a close game.  But when your offense is ice cold in a tied game late in the half, maybe don't roll a backcourt of Nairn, McQuaid and Goins, just when Bridges is starting to get a feel

But it's also worth noting that the missed no call, when Jackson got hammered late in the first snowballed, and that's obviously the only reason we got blown out.  Damn zebras
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 07, 2018, 10:43:46 PM
Too bad Michigan State couldn't get the home cooking and media fanfare today. 

Announcers of the Iowa / Maryland game mentioned how Tom Krzyzeski got blitzed early, so there was no need to go on a tirade.

LOL!

Good win Bucks. Try to have a let down game Thursday, please? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on January 07, 2018, 11:03:40 PM
Rough one. Thoroughly outplayed and game planned. Couldn't guard in isolation, couldn't get past aggressive on ball defense up top. Surprised by the former, not so much the latter. Slashing is definitely a weakness. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 07, 2018, 11:21:14 PM

ESecPN's headline

Michigan State's loss highlights that the Big Ten is a mess -- and boring
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 08, 2018, 12:05:36 AM
I can't really blame them.  It's sort of true.  You establish your conference rep in the preseason, fair or not.  The Big Ten, outside of MSU and Purdue, did so blah in November and December, that now all we have is the single game between the two of them, and ton of games that generate no national interest.  I said as much this week.  MSU could easily be beat, but it wouldn't be in a big game, it would be in an upset.  That narrative got locked in with how the conference did in November and December.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ohio1317 on January 08, 2018, 12:16:05 AM
Yeah non-conference play this year not doing any favors.  I'll confess, expecting an adjusting OSU, I was not unhappy to see the conference struggle a bit as my expectations of the Buckeyes rose somewhat.  Definitely did not expect tonight. 

All that said, conference is still very much Michigan State's and to a lesser degree Purdue's to lose in my view.  Just glad to be at the top for a bit and see Buckeye basketball showing signs of life.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on January 08, 2018, 09:21:24 AM
Izzo seems to give away a game or two a year.. if no other reason to see what he has and keep the team focused.  JMO
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 08, 2018, 09:26:43 AM
Eh, I think he made some bad choices, but I don't think it was one of those "lesson" games, like leaving Ward on the bench for a whole half against Rutgers.  Or doing weird lineup things in a marquee December game.

I think this is his deepest team, and he's struggling with cutting down the rotation.  When the team is clicking, it's fine.  When they aren't I think it's going to be problematic.  MSU jumps out to an 11-4 lead.  So he brings in a couple walk ons and deep rotation guys at the 16 minute mark of the first half?  MSU lost all momentum when he decided to trot out Naird, McQuaid, Goins and Schilling 4 minutes into the game.  He brought the starters back, and then again went to that deep rotation.  After he did that wholesale lineup change, it was 37-18 OSU for the rest of the half.

When MSU is feeling it, it gives guys rest, when they aren't it's just breaking up their momentum, and prevent the offense from ever getting into a groove.  Usually he's pared the rotation down more by this point, but this year he hasn't, and I'm not sure that's ideal for a March run.  Yesterday may have been a lesson game, but perhaps the lesson was to Izzo, that he may have to make some tough choices when it comes to cutting the minutes of certain guys.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 08, 2018, 09:27:57 AM
Also, Fran's done after this year right?  Two years ago they were loaded, and gagged it away down the stretch.  Last year was supposed to be a rebuild year, but you expected to see some sort of step up this year, particularly in a down Big Ten.  Instead this might be his worst team in Iowa City.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on January 08, 2018, 09:42:47 AM
Also, Fran's done after this year right?  Two years ago they were loaded, and gagged it away down the stretch.  Last year was supposed to be a rebuild year, but you expected to see some sort of step up this year, particularly in a down Big Ten.  Instead this might be his worst team in Iowa City.
Based on his outburst last night, I wonder if he should walk away now before he creates his own health issues.
Iowa definitely did get the short end of the officiating last night, but wow.  I thought he might die or something.

Hang in there, Coach M.!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on January 08, 2018, 09:44:58 AM
all those talented freshman Iowa had last year and so far, in the couple games I've seen them play, I'm not sure they've developed or progressed. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 08, 2018, 10:23:53 AM
Based on his outburst last night, I wonder if he should walk away now before he creates his own health issues.
Iowa definitely did get the short end of the officiating last night, but wow.  I thought he might die or something.

Hang in there, Coach M.!
No doubt. 
There were times I swore the whistle would blow, because the Terps were called for less last game, and nothing. 
The only thing they got right, was when Bruno stepped over the player to help up his teammate. 
Bruno wasn't taunting, and the Iowa player pushed his knee back. 
Other than that, I thought Cowan was frustrated and let an elbow fly. He definitely fouled on the play before the ejection. 
I guess the B1G hates Iowa more in basketball than the Terps. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 08, 2018, 11:03:03 AM
Previous tiers (with +/-)

Upsets so far:
DateWon@/vLost
2-DectOSU@UW
4-DecUW@PSU
5-DecUNLvMN
2-JanUNL@NU
6-JanIU@MN
7-JantOSUvMSU

Typically we consider adjustments when teams are at +/- 2 so that is:

Either moving Nebraska up or Minnesota down would eliminate the MN@UNL upset.  The other upset for either team will still be an upset even if we make a change.  I think that Ohio State and Nebraska should each move up a tier. New proposed tiers:
Thoughts?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 08, 2018, 11:08:09 AM
I agree, although with the suspensions/injuries, I'm not sure Minnesota belongs in Tier 3 anymore.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 08, 2018, 11:24:11 AM
I'm not sure about MN either but with Nebraska's promotion they will only be at -1 so we can ride it out for a bit and see.  

The other thing is that I'm not reading too much into their loss to Indiana because the Hoosiers seem like the hardest team to project.  At their best they hung with Dook beat a ranked ND, and won at MN but at their worst they are flat awful.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 08, 2018, 11:26:43 AM
The updated tiers are (with +/- for upsets):
The upsets so far have been:
DateWon@/vLost
4-DecUW@PSU
2-JanUNL@NU
6-JanIU@MN

The new projections are:
TeamnoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoHomenoHomenoHomenoHomeRR-WRR-Lmiss-Wmiss-LProj-WProj-LRR%Proj%Diff+Var-VarVarConf-WConf-LOOC-WOOC-LProjT-WProjT-L
MSUMUNLPSUPUIOWAMNNUtOSU24271171    0.923     0.944     0.021 0 0 0       17         1 121        29           2
PurdueUNLNUtOSUPSUILLIUIOWAMSU24271171    0.923     0.944     0.021 0 0 0       17         1 112        28           3
tOSUMSUUMDUNLILLUWNUMNPU20662144    0.769     0.778     0.009 0 0 0       14         4 94        23           8
PSUMMNRUUWILLIUMSUPU151135126    0.577     0.667     0.090 0 (1)(1)      11         7 103        21         10
UMDIOWAMNRUUWILLIUUNLtOSU15116299    0.577     0.500   (0.077)0 0 0         9         9 112        20         11
MILLIUMNRUMSUUNLPSUUW15116299    0.577     0.500   (0.077)0 0 0         9         9 112        20         11
MinnyILLMSUtOSURUUMDMPSUUW15116299    0.577     0.500   (0.077)0 (1)(1)        8       10 112        19         12
NUILLMSUUNLtOSUIUIOWAPURU101635711    0.385     0.389     0.004 0 (1)(1)        6       12 94        15         16
UWIUMMNtOSUIOWAUMDPSURU101644612    0.385     0.333   (0.051)1 0 1         7       11 76        14         17
UNLIUIOWAUMDMMSUNUtOSUPU10161799    0.385     0.500     0.115 1 0 1       10         8 94        19         12
RUIUIOWANUUWUMDMMNPSU62008612    0.231     0.333     0.103 0 0 0         6       12 103        16         15
ILLIOWAUMDPSUPUMMNNUtOSU62017513    0.231     0.278     0.047 0 0 0         5       13 103        15         16
IUUMDNUPSUPUMUNLRUUW62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)1 0 1         4       14 75        11         19
IowaMSUNUPUUWILUMDUNLRU62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)0 0 0         3       15 94        12         19
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 08, 2018, 11:40:17 AM
Based on this update the Final Standings and BTT seeds would be:

The BTT match-ups would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:

Then we sit and wait for a month . . .

Ok, not really a month but it is still annoying.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 08, 2018, 12:20:59 PM
Not that the polls mean anything in college basketball, but I'm surprised OSU remained unranked
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 08, 2018, 12:30:35 PM
Purdue up to #5 in the new AP poll.

Almost a guarantee that they'll lose the Michigan game now.  ~???
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 08, 2018, 12:48:31 PM
That Purdue at Michigan game along with a couple others could effectively eliminate all but PU, MSU, and tOSU from the B1G title race this week.  

That is all of the 2-loss and better teams.  If Purdue, Ohio State, and Michigan State all go 2-0 this week/weekend then I think the B1G is a three-team race.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 08, 2018, 12:58:27 PM
KenPom Power Rankings

1. MSU (2)
2. Purdue (5)
3. Michigan (32)
4. OSU (33)
5. Maryland (35)
6. PSU (41)
7. Minnesota (48)
8. NW (71)
9. Wisconsin (77)
10. Nebraska (81)
11. Illinois (87)
12. Iowa (88)
13. Indiana (91)
14. Rutgers (123)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 08, 2018, 01:34:35 PM
"That Purdue at Michigan game along with a couple others could effectively eliminate all but PU, MSU, and tOSU from the B1G title race this week.  " (my quote function is not working)

Waaaaaay to early to be saying this.  Heck, just last year on February 10th, Wisconsin had a 2 game lead on everybody and everybody was tripping over themselves to crown them.......and then they lost 5 of their last 7.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 08, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
"That Purdue at Michigan game along with a couple others could effectively eliminate all but PU, MSU, and tOSU from the B1G title race this week.  " (my quote function is not working)

Waaaaaay to early to be saying this.  Heck, just last year on February 10th, Wisconsin had a 2 game lead on everybody and everybody was tripping over themselves to crown them.......and then they lost 5 of their last 7.
I get what you are saying and I don't completely disagree but if (big IF) the Boilermakers, Spartans, and Buckeyes each go 2-0 this week, there will be an enormous gap between them and #4.  
FWIW, I don't think the Buckeyes are nearly as good as the other two but if they get that far out ahead it will be tough for them to be overtaken for the #3 seed in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 08, 2018, 03:20:42 PM
It seems that the conference (at least for scheduling purposes) considers Friday to be part of the weekend.  Every team plays this week (Tu-Th) so there are seven games, sorted according to my interest level (for the conference as a whole, otherwise Ohio State's game would always be #1):
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 08, 2018, 06:00:56 PM
It seems that the conference (at least for scheduling purposes) considers Friday to be part of the weekend.  
I think Friday goes either way.  MSU I believe at one point has a Friday-Sunday turnaround
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 08, 2018, 07:57:05 PM


OSU, breaking out the ole Motion Block O

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTDlSoPXcAAFlxI.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 09, 2018, 01:53:43 PM
Updated composite computer poll, 50 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Villanova (2)
2.Virginia (9)
3.PURDUE (4)
4.Duke (1)
5.MICHIGAN STATE (3)
6.Texas Tech (13)
7.West Virginia (11)
8.Kansas (5)
9.North Carolina (6)
10.Oklahoma (10)
11.Wichita State (16)
12.Xavier (8)
13.Arizona State (7)
14.Clemson (18)
15.Cincinnati (23)
16.Seton Hall (20)
17.Gonzaga (19)
18.TCU (17)
19.Auburn (-)
20.Tennessee (21)
21.Creighton (-)
22.Arizona (15)
23.Arkansas (12)
24.Kentucky (24)
25.Florida State (25)
-
27.Ohio State (39)
31.Michigan (34)
36.Maryland (33)
48.Minnesota (45)
58.Penn State (60)
75.Nebraska (85)
81.Northwestern (65)
83.Illinois (77)
84.Wisconsin (81)
96.Indiana (101)
109.Iowa (97)
121.Rutgers (127)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 09, 2018, 09:33:49 PM
Purdue firing on all cylinders right now.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on January 09, 2018, 11:11:09 PM
TTUN not able to pull an OSU and beat the better team on home court. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on January 09, 2018, 11:14:55 PM
Tough loss for Michigan. Two really close calls going the other way in the final 6 seconds, neither of which happen if Matthews plays selfless and hits Wagner open at the top of the key. Very good Purdue team and Michigan giving them all they can handle shows how much UM has improved since the beginning of the season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 09, 2018, 11:17:36 PM
Have to assume that puts Purdue in the driver's seat.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 09, 2018, 11:22:51 PM
Have to assume that puts Purdue in the driver's seat.
Well, they do travel to E. Lansing. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 09, 2018, 11:29:25 PM
Well, they do travel to E. Lansing.
Yeah but they are the only one of the four tourney looking teams who have proven anything on the road.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 10, 2018, 10:38:21 AM
Indiana's win over Penn State was an upset which rearranges the projection but only slightly.  PSU now projects at 10-8, tied with Nebraska for 4th/5th.  It doesn't matter much.  The loserer of that tie would play the 12/13 winner on Thursday of the BTT.  The winner of that tie would play the 5/12/13 winner on Friday.  

Indiana, meanwhile, moves up into a tie with Illinois for 12th/13th and that is completely irrelevant as those two teams play each other on Wednesday in the BTT so the tiebreaker only determines jersey color.  

The bigger issue for our projections is that Indiana is now at +2 and Penn State is now at -2:

I think that we need to either move the Lions down or the Hoosiers up, but I'm not sure which.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 10, 2018, 10:55:17 AM
I mentioned upthread that Nebraska has a very favorable schedule.  Here is what I mean and how I calculate that:
TeamnoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoHomenoHomenoHomenoHomeRR-WRR-Lmiss-Wmiss-LProj-WProj-LRR%Proj%Diff
UNLIUIOWAUMDMMSUNUtOSUPU10161799    0.385     0.500     0.115
RUIUIOWANUUWUMDMMNPSU62008612    0.231     0.333     0.103
PSUMMNRUUWILLIUMSUPU151135126    0.577     0.667     0.090
ILLIOWAUMDPSUPUMMNNUtOSU62017513    0.231     0.278     0.047
MSUMUNLPSUPUIOWAMNNUtOSU24271171    0.923     0.944     0.021
PurdueUNLNUtOSUPSUILLIUIOWAMSU24271171    0.923     0.944     0.021
tOSUMSUUMDUNLILLUWNUMNPU20662144    0.769     0.778     0.009
NUILLMSUUNLtOSUIUIOWAPURU101635711    0.385     0.389     0.004
UWIUMMNtOSUIOWAUMDPSURU101644612    0.385     0.333   (0.051)
IUUMDNUPSUPUMUNLRUUW62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)
IowaMSUNUPUUWILUMDUNLRU62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)
UMDIOWAMNRUUWILLIUUNLtOSU15116299    0.577     0.500   (0.077)
MILLIUMNRUMSUUNLPSUUW15116299    0.577     0.500   (0.077)
MinnyILLMSUtOSURUUMDMPSUUW15116299    0.577     0.500   (0.077)
Colums:

Thus you can see that Nebraska has the most favorable schedule in the league.  We project that they would only go 10-16 in a double-round-robin but they miss seven projected losses and only one projected win so that improves dramatically to 9-9.  

Similarly, Maryland, Michigan, and Minnesota have the least favorable schedules in the league.  We project that they would go 15-11 in a double-round-robin but they miss six wins and only two losses so that degrades dramatically to 9-9.  

Nebraska, Rutgers, Penn State, and Illinois have favorable schedules (ordered from most to least favorable).  

For the teams in the middle (MSU, PU, tOSU, NU), the differences are just rounding issues.  

Minnesota, Michigan, Maryland, Iowa, Indiana, and Wisconsin have unfavorable schedules (ordered from most to least unfavorable).  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2018, 11:45:14 AM
My vote would be for moving Indiana up.  A young team, figuring out a new coach.  I think even without the +2 already, they would be a likely candidate to markedly improve as the season progresses, and as a forward looking tool, that's the move that makes more sense to me.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 10, 2018, 12:27:02 PM
Sorry, couldn't post. I've just now regained consciousness after that Purdue/Michigan game! :)

Amazing game by Michigan. Purdue completely threw them off with their defensive strategy in the first half, and Michigan adjusted. Eventually they realized that if Haas is guarding a shooter beyond the arc, he's not going to be able to do anything. He might be 7'2", but he's too slow to guard anyone close, so he has to sag off and you can just shoot over him. And they just started raining it from deep.

Glad the Boilers won, but I wanted to give Michigan credit for a hell of a game. 

Purdue is now #1 [just barely] according to Sagarin...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 10, 2018, 12:32:14 PM
My vote would be for moving Indiana up.  A young team, figuring out a new coach.  I think even without the +2 already, they would be a likely candidate to markedly improve as the season progresses, and as a forward looking tool, that's the move that makes more sense to me.
Also, you *know* Indiana has talented players. They're year-in-year-out classes are ranked in the top 3-4 of the B1G according to 247. 
If they're going to regress to a mean as they get used to their new coach/scheme and he gets used to learning how to use these players, it's going to be an upward change. Growing pains were to be expected, but we shouldn't necessarily rank them based upon how they looked in November, we should be ranking them how we expect them to look in January/February. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 10, 2018, 03:44:09 PM
I went with ELA's and bwar's suggestion and IU has been promoted to tier four.  The new tiers are (with +/- for upsets):
The upsets so far have been:
DateWon@/vLost
4-DecUW@PSU
2-JanUNL@NU
6-JanIU@MN
The updated projections are:
TeamnoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoHomenoHomenoHomenoHomeRR-WRR-Lmiss-Wmiss-LProj-WProj-LRR%Proj%Diff+Var-VarVarConf-WConf-LOOC-WOOC-LProjT-WProjT-L
MSUMUNLPSUPUIOWAMNNUtOSU24271171    0.923     0.944     0.021 0 0 0       17         1 121        29           2
PurdueUNLNUtOSUPSUILLIUIOWAMSU24271171    0.923     0.944     0.021 0 0 0       17         1 112        28           3
tOSUMSUUMDUNLILLUWNUMNPU20662144    0.769     0.778     0.009 0 0 0       14         4 94        23           8
PSUMMNRUUWILLIUMSUPU141235117    0.538     0.611     0.073 0 (1)(1)      10         8 103        20         11
MILLIUMNRUMSUUNLPSUUW14125399    0.538     0.500   (0.038)0 0 0         9         9 112        20         11
UMDIOWAMNRUUWILLIUUNLtOSU141262810    0.538     0.444   (0.094)0 0 0         8       10 112        19         12
MinnyILLMSUtOSURUUMDMPSUUW141262810    0.538     0.444   (0.094)0 (1)(1)        7       11 112        18         13
UNLIUIOWAUMDMMSUNUtOSUPU10161799    0.385     0.500     0.115 1 0 1       10         8 94        19         12
UWIUMMNtOSUIOWAUMDPSURU101644612    0.385     0.333   (0.051)1 0 1         7       11 76        14         17
IUUMDNUPSUPUMUNLRUUW101644612    0.385     0.333   (0.051)1 0 1         7       11 75        14         16
NUILLMSUUNLtOSUIUIOWAPURU101635711    0.385     0.389     0.004 0 (1)(1)        6       12 94        15         16
RUIUIOWANUUWUMDMMNPSU62008612    0.231     0.333     0.103 0 0 0         6       12 103        16         15
ILLIOWAUMDPSUPUMMNNUtOSU62017513    0.231     0.278     0.047 0 0 0         5       13 103        15         16
IowaMSUNUPUUWILUMDUNLRU62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)0 0 0         3       15 94        12         19
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 10, 2018, 03:56:49 PM
The updated projections would result in the following seeds for the BTT at MSG in NYC:
The BTT match-ups would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 10, 2018, 04:15:40 PM
UW's upset of PSU happened when it had two starting guards. It no longer has that and this should be taken into consideration for the tier they are in. I think they belong in the bottom right now, in all honesty. They are playing walk-ons.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 10, 2018, 04:45:24 PM
UW's upset of PSU happened when it had two starting guards. It no longer has that and this should be taken into consideration for the tier they are in. I think they belong in the bottom right now, in all honesty. They are playing walk-ons.
The front half of UW's schedule is so difficult that it is tough to tell where they should ve.  The losses to Rutgers and Nebraska do not look good, but both of those were road games and close losses.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2018, 05:31:19 PM
It takes a minute with those guys.  MSU early last year with all their injuries looked a lot different than MSU at the end, once the walk ons like Goins and Van Dyk got used to their roles.  Losing three guys, including two starters last year to season ending injuries, then losing Bridges for 5 weeks, also probably made them better this year.  I think last year we were in "just keep the tourney streak alive" mode after the injury bug hit, which they were able to.  Hopefully it pays off this year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 10, 2018, 05:31:54 PM
UW's upset of PSU happened when it had two starting guards. It no longer has that and this should be taken into consideration for the tier they are in. I think they belong in the bottom right now, in all honesty. They are playing walk-ons.
Where it gets hard for UW is that essentially whether they're in Tier 4 or Tier 5, they'll still remain at +1 variance based on games played to date. It really doesn't matter either way. Their upset of PSU doesn't change no matter where they move, and all their other B1G games to date would be equal for either tier. 
And going forward they've got @ Purdue, v Illinois, @ Iowa, and @ MSU coming up. Whether they're Tier 4 or Tier 5, they are predicted to lose all of those games except Illinois. But there's no tier they could be in that losing at home to Illinois isn't negative variance, so Tier 4 or Tier 5 doesn't matter there either. 
After that, they've got a home-stand against Nebraska and Northwestern, two games they're expected to win whether you put them in Tier 4 or Tier 5. Then road trips to Maryland and Illinois, where they "should" lose whether Tier 4 or Tier 5. 
The first game where Tier 4 or Tier 5 matters is Feb 11 vs Michigan. As Tier 4, they're expected to beat Michigan at home. As Tier 5, they're expected to lose to Michigan at home.

I would say that for now, we simply leave them where they are. They have a +1 variance which we can discount because of subsequent injuries. If they lose at more than one home vs Illinois, Nebraska, or Northwestern, then we should be talking about dropping them. But given that we don't truly know how good or bad they are, I don't see a point to changing them now. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 10, 2018, 06:13:46 PM
Bwar,
You fleshed it out a lot more than I did, but I agree.  They need to stay where they are until proven otherwise and it is going to be a while because, as you pointed out, they are projected to lose three of their next four.  Even if they go 0-4 they'll still be even (one positive upset, one negative upset) so I don't see a downward change for UW anytime soon.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 10, 2018, 08:31:06 PM
After the football game vs Iowa where Wiley was shouldered in the head, he was diagnosed with a concussion, and will not play vs Ohio State. 

This makes 285 different issues Dion has had at Maryland where he couldn't play a game. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2018, 08:58:06 PM
MSU is straight up broken
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on January 10, 2018, 09:10:50 PM
Just flipped to BTN.  How in the hell is Rutger playing even with MSU?  MSU will win since it went to OT, but not expected.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2018, 09:18:10 PM
Just flipped to BTN.  How in the hell is Rutger playing even with MSU?  MSU will win since it went to OT, but not expected.
No they won't.  This is like 2016 all over again, where they looked invincible through December, got to #1.  Lost a road game at Iowa and figured road losses happen.  Then lost at home to Nebraska, lost at Wisconsin and got bombed at home by Iowa, and they turned it back around at won 10 of 11 plus the conference tourney, but they lost the Big Ten title in those two weeks.  They are in a serious offensive funk, and I assume they'll figure it out, but they are really, really bad right now.  Jackson has hit some sort of wall, he looks so lost on both ends right now.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 10, 2018, 09:29:56 PM
They hit God Mode against Maryland. 

They aren't 30 points better than Maryland, they just couldn't miss a damn thing. 

It's like they get up for Maryland. Just like another school farther South. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2018, 09:30:43 PM
Michigan should have their way with us on Saturday, considering Jackson doesn't even look close to being able to exploit what should be the biggest mismatch.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2018, 09:32:22 PM
They hit GOD Mode against Maryland.

They aren't 30 points better than Maryland, they just couldn't miss a damn thing.

It's like they get up for Maryland. Just like another school farther South.
That's how they had played basically every game since the Duke game.  These last two have been the change.
There are two opponents they get up for no matter what.  The one in Madison and the one they play on Saturday
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on January 10, 2018, 09:38:47 PM
I remember a week ago when I thought MSU was clearly the best team in the nation. Halcyon days. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2018, 09:43:20 PM
I remember a week ago when I thought MSU was clearly the best team in the nation. Halcyon days.
Those were good days.  Now they don't have a single player I trust offensively.

Honestly the only reason they won is because the refs called it tight, and MSU was deeper and subbed liberally to spread the fouls out, and Rutgers couldn't, so they had 4 guys foul out in OT.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on January 10, 2018, 11:27:03 PM
Purdue played a great game, and Michigan had finally taken the lead in the final minutes so it never should've come down to those questionable-at-best calls at the end.

Regardless, not sure what's going wrong with MSU. I figured they'd win convincingly so I didn't see the game, but I'm still not feeling confident about Saturday. Michigan isn't a good true road team (3-8 last year, 4-6 the year before)..... That said, other than the return game to West Lafayette, Michigan should probably be favored otherwise (@UMD, @PSU, and @NEB being the toughest games, otherwise with OSU being the toughest home game left).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 11, 2018, 11:13:24 AM
  • Rutgers at Michigan State:  I would not want to be Rutgers this week.  I see this as the basketball equivalent of MSU v tOSU in football.  Remember what happened to the next team that played Ohio State after their blowout loss in Iowa City?  Yeah, I think the same thing is going to happen to the next team to play Michigan State after their blowout loss in Columbus.  
^^This is what I expected from the game last night so I was shocked to see that MSU needed OT to get it done and then to read here (thank you ELA) that RU lost four guys to fouls in the OT.  I'm perplexed and have some questions for the MSU fans who actually watched the game:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 11, 2018, 11:21:18 AM
The worldwide leader updated their braketology and we now have five teams in:


Maryland is listed as one of the "last four byes" and Minnesota is one of the "next four out".  Meanwhile the Buckeyes and Wolverines at 8/9 seeds do not have a lot of margin for error which leads me back to a point I made upthread that we could get to the BTT with a larger than usual number of bubble teams.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 11, 2018, 12:29:50 PM
I think the Rutgers game last night was a classic example of the "trap game".  @OSU before and Michigan at home next, MSU came home after a defeat and thought to themselves, "Well, we can at least take it easy for this game and get rested up for Michigan this weekend."  Rutgers is a surprisingly good rebounding team (5th in the nation) and outrebounded MSU for some extra possessions.  As far as I can tell, it wasn't really that Rutgers shot that well, but they also were very physical and went through almost every foul they could possibly give.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 11, 2018, 02:10:51 PM
If MSU had beaten OSU, it would be a trap game.  Never heard of a trap game coming off a loss.  He'll, I thought were about to see angry MSU, and was kind of pissed that we were going to waste it on a home game with Rutgers.

If it were a case of letting OSU beat us twice, I'd have expected MSU slow out of the gates, but instead MSU scored the first 9 points and ran out to a 19-7 lead, then got outscored the rest of the way.

I just think it's as simple as MSU is slumping right now.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 11, 2018, 02:45:19 PM
Well, we'll know more in about 48 hours... I'm a little sad that Mich/MSU is on at the same time as Pur/MN. Obviously I'm going to watch the Purdue game, but wish I could watch both...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 11, 2018, 04:11:59 PM
Iowa/Illinois matches the last two winless (in conference) teams against each other so I guess that is something.  

I'm concerned about a let-down for Ohio State tonight.  On the other hand, I assumed that MSU would come out mad coming off of that and destroy Rutgers so hopefully I'll end up wrong on both counts.  

I'm going to NYC this weekend and will be at the tOSU at RU game on Sunday night.  Does anyone here know anything about watching a BB game at Rutgers?  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 11, 2018, 07:39:24 PM
OSU getting some points out of Dakich tonight
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 11, 2018, 07:42:48 PM
What a run by OSU...

...damn zebras!

O:-)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 11, 2018, 08:58:35 PM
Impressive victory for OSU tonight 91-67. Is OSU legit good?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 11, 2018, 08:59:33 PM
OSU remains unbeaten in Conference play, tied for first place atop the Big Ten standings.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 11, 2018, 09:27:01 PM
What a run by OSU...

...damn zebras!

O:-)
Aww, looking for a good laugh with someone? 
The Zebras had nothing to do with this game. 
Turgeon is a shit coach. We have a ton of talent all around us, and we go all over the world for learning curve players who can't speak English. 
Plus, 2 key contributors with length are done for the year. 
Turgeon said after the Dook II game that this team got better. Well, we must be Final 4 good now.
Kevin Anderson screwed us hard since his hiring. Now, he's getting paid to NOT be there!  Laughable. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 11, 2018, 10:08:02 PM
Illinois choking away a big lead at home against Iowa.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 11, 2018, 10:09:17 PM
Just looked at OSUs schedule.  Their next seven games have to be about as easy a 7 game conference stretch as you'll see.

12-0 is very possible.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 11, 2018, 10:15:37 PM
Illinois choking away a big lead at home against Iowa.
Illini hit a really ugly three at the buzzer to force OT.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 11, 2018, 10:52:58 PM
Just looked at OSUs schedule.  Their next seven games have to be about as easy a 7 game conference stretch as you'll see.

12-0 is very possible.
I was looking at the same thing. Road games can be tougher than expected plus I'm going to the Rutgers game so I probably jinxed that, but the MN game isn't really a road game it is at MSG in NYC.  
I'm concerned about the short turnaround between MN in NYC and Nebraska at home. Indiana also looks to be much improved but yeah, 12-0 isn't out of the realm of possibility. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 11, 2018, 10:58:01 PM
Wow!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 11, 2018, 11:07:29 PM
Illini hit a really ugly three at the buzzer to force OT.
Iowa pulled it out in OT so the Illini are the last winless team in the conference. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 12, 2018, 10:04:08 AM
Iowa's upset win in Urbana/Champaign means that we now project that the Illini and Hawkeyes will finish tied for 13/14 at 4-14.  They only play once and Iowa won so the H2H tiebreaker goes to the Hawkeyes and we now project Iowa as the 13 seed and Illinois as the 14 seed in the BTT.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 12, 2018, 10:26:35 AM
Is Lovie Smith coaching the Basketball team too? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 12, 2018, 10:31:15 AM
Just an FYI:
There will not be any updates to the tiers for a while.  I'm about to leave town, headed for NYC.  I'm hoping to stay ahead of the storm on the road.  I'll be in NYC for the weekend and then I'm going to the Ohio State at Rutgers game Sunday night and I'll be on the road on the way home on Monday.  

I'll update the projections on Tuesday, January 16.  Projections between now and then:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on January 12, 2018, 10:54:40 AM
Illinois consistently finding new ways to lose and rip my heart out.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 12, 2018, 11:33:51 AM
Wow!
If you're a sports fan, that is a must app.

Oh, and BTW, we only lost because the whole team is sick....... 

Yeah... 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 12, 2018, 09:21:06 PM
Being Tony Carr's teammate must suck
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on January 13, 2018, 08:58:23 AM
Battle of Michigan at Noon today. Would be nice to see the men and Blue get a W. Big win escaped them earlier this week and no better team to snag it from.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 13, 2018, 09:23:20 AM
Might be the half foot of snow on the ground, but looking forward to the MSU-UM game.  Feel like I've checked out of college basketball the past couple years, but getting back into it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 13, 2018, 12:52:22 PM
Wow, what that team gets away with. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on January 13, 2018, 12:54:06 PM
Wow, what that team gets away with.
Which team? I thought it was a great half except all the ticky tac fouls in the paint called against Michigan.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on January 13, 2018, 01:00:21 PM
Purdue is playing quite well.  Until that little bit of life showed before the end of the half, it looked like Minn had thrown in the towel and was cooked.  Their 3 pt def has been awful.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 13, 2018, 01:15:26 PM
Which team? I thought it was a great half except all the ticky tac fouls in the paint called against Michigan.
The fouls, the taunting after dunks... 
Refs real timid with the whistle against Dook 2.0.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 13, 2018, 01:30:41 PM
The Purdue game is "boring" enough that I put it on my phone so UM/MSU could go on the big screen.

Can someone explain why Miles Bridges takes 3-pointers?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 13, 2018, 01:47:47 PM
Dan Dakich actually said "If you were to play one of those games where you take a drink of a beverage every time I say Keita Bates-Diop on a broadcast, you'd get pretty messed up." Then started talking about Harry's Chocolate Shop at Purdue is such a great place...

I think Dakich enjoys imbibing a bit...

:singing:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 13, 2018, 01:55:30 PM
Hard not to like Jackson though as a legit one and done. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 13, 2018, 01:58:34 PM
MSU in a hole and looking disjointed on offense
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2018, 02:15:11 PM
The fouls, the taunting after dunks...
Refs real timid with the whistle against Dook 2.0.
It's a fucking rivalry game.  Wagner was posing after every play too.  They even talked about it during the broadcast.  Your obsession remains adorable.
Stick a fork in MSU.  OSU gave everyone the blueprint.  Go small, double Ward every touch.  Easy win.  I think the plan was to redshirt Ahrens at this point, but it's clear that this team needs wings badly.  It's Bridges and nothing.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2018, 02:15:51 PM
Dan Dakich actually said "If you were to play one of those games where you take a drink of a beverage every time I say Keita Bates-Diop on a broadcast, you'd get pretty messed up." Then started talking about Harry's Chocolate Shop at Purdue is such a great place...

I think Dakich enjoys imbibing a bit...

:singing:
Never confuse an idiot with a drunk.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 13, 2018, 02:22:35 PM
2nd half called more reasonably. 

Outcome shows it. 

Can't wait to get another loss Monday. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2018, 02:29:08 PM
Izzo got outcoached badly again.  Had to figure something out other than Ward or Tillman on Wagner.  Refs were calling everything down low.  You blew on someone, it was a foul.  MSU attacked the basket in the first half, UM didn't.  At one point MSU had one 3 point attempt and UM had 11.  Beilein recognized that, second half they attacked, and pretty much every time they did they got a basket or a foul, just like MSU was getting in the first half.

The turnovers we're obviously the biggest story.  To do that at home is inexcusable.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on January 13, 2018, 02:32:54 PM
Izzo got outcoached badly again.  Had to figure something out other than Ward or Tillman on Wagner.  Refs were calling everything down low.  You blew on someone, it was a foul.  MSU attacked the basket in the first half, UM didn't.  At one point MSU had one 3 point attempt and UM had 11.  Beilein recognized that, second half they attacked, and pretty much every time they did they got a basket or a foul, just like MSU was getting in the first half.

The turnovers we're obviously the biggest story.  To do that at home is inexcusable.
Good summation. Poorly officiated down low. I thought it was home cooking in the first half but Blue got some calls the second half down low because they attacked the hoop.
Michigan’s free throw shooting will cost them games this year. They were lucky it did not today.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on January 13, 2018, 02:42:42 PM
Can't do anything is isolation - guard or breakdown off dribble. Can't protect the ball. 

Stop transition, pressure on ball and we turtle. Teams can overcome our defense simply by waiting for turnovers and extra possessions. 

Izzo all of a sudden has a real mess on his hands. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2018, 02:44:08 PM
Good summation. Poorly officiated down low. I thought it was home cooking in the first half but Blue got some calls the second half down low because they attacked the hoop.
Michigan’s free throw shooting will cost them games this year. They were lucky it did not today.
They were calling everything ticky tack in the paint both ways.  Early on, UM never went into the paint.  When the 3PA difference is 11-1, the FT difference is always going to be lopsided the other way.  When Beilein adjusted UM got the same calls.  That's why he's a hell of a coach.  Izzos in game "adjustments" today were trash, and Beileins were perfect.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2018, 02:44:56 PM
Can't do anything is isolation - guard or breakdown off dribble. Can't protect the ball.

Stop transition, pressure on ball and we turtle. Teams can overcome our defense simply by waiting for turnovers and extra possessions.

Izzo all of a sudden has a real mess on his hands.
He's had this problem before.  Killed the 2006 team too.  Neitzels wasn't good yet in the half court.  When they couldn't run, they couldn't do anything.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2018, 02:55:05 PM
Good summation. Poorly officiated down low. I thought it was home cooking in the first half but Blue got some calls the second half down low because they attacked the hoop.
Michigan’s free throw shooting will cost them games this year. They were lucky it did not today.
As to your last point.  I think UM was 13th in the Big Ten in FT shooting, and couldn't miss.  Rutgers was last, and shot nearly 90% I think on Wednesday.
MSUs FT defense is somehow terrible.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2018, 02:58:03 PM
Remember last year Wagner absolutely abused Swanigan, and he at least has some mobility.  Yet Tillman, who would have maybe redshirted if Carter was healthy, is supposed to handle that one on one?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on January 13, 2018, 03:03:17 PM
Remember last year Wagner absolutely abused Swanigan, and he at least has some mobility.  Yet Tillman, who would have maybe redshirted if Carter was healthy, is supposed to handle that one on one?
Jackson is the only option there and he was in foul trouble early, again
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 13, 2018, 03:31:20 PM
Can't do anything is isolation - guard or breakdown off dribble. Can't protect the ball.

Stop transition, pressure on ball and we turtle. Teams can overcome our defense simply by waiting for turnovers and extra possessions.

Izzo all of a sudden has a real mess on his hands.
That's actually encouraging to hear as a Purdue fan... Our defense is absolutely going to force you to beat us with half-court offense. I can foresee a frustrated Bridges jacking up threes with a hand in his face all game.

Remember last year Wagner absolutely abused Swanigan, and he at least has some mobility.  Yet Tillman, who would have maybe redshirted if Carter was healthy, is supposed to handle that one on one?
Neither Haas nor Swanigan were particularly mobile. Mobility was the biggest knock on Swanigan's game. And he was so important to the team last year that he HAD to play poor defense to avoid fouls. Purdue couldn't afford him not being on the court. 

Wagner is a matchup nightmare. On Tuesday Purdue tried to neutralize him by switching screens on him such that he was being guarded by smaller but quicker players. But eventually Michigan realized that meant that shooters were being guarded at the arc by Haas, and they just decided to shoot over him because he's immobile. That was effectively the reason that Purdue neutralized Michigan in the first half and why Michigan came roaring back in the second. Good strategy by Painter, great counter by Beilein. 

Between guys like Jackson and Bridges, who both have some size, can't Izzo put someone more athletic on Wagner?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2018, 03:43:38 PM
Jackson is the only option there and he was in foul trouble early, again
Miles would have been a better option.  At least he had the athleticism.  At least force him to prove he can be a true pure post option.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on January 13, 2018, 04:30:02 PM
Hell of a win today. The officiating was incredibly frustrating (bad both ways to be sure), especially since Michigan emphasizes not fouling, but fortunately the team adjusted to it.

It's weird that Michigan's defense is actually better than its offense this year, with its ability to force turnovers and rebound on defense. Watching Matthews and Simpson shoot freethrows is agonizing, but fortunately everyone else who frequently gets to the line is doing at least reasonably well, now.

I'm trying not to get too excited, but the return game to Purdue is by far the toughest game left since so many teams in the Big Ten are disappointing and/or down this year. Ohio State is the toughest home game left, of course.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on January 13, 2018, 06:42:01 PM
As to your last point.  I think UM was 13th in the Big Ten in FT shooting, and couldn't miss.  Rutgers was last, and shot nearly 90% I think on Wednesday.
MSUs FT defense is somehow terrible.
I was really confused by your post until I went back and looked at the team stats. I’m shocked Michigan shot so well from the free throw line.  They shot 28-35, only missing 7. Maybe why I had such a negative view is because 6 of the 7 misses were in the last 2:09. 

They only missed one foul shot up until that point which to your point is remarkable and honestly some bad luck for MSU.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2018, 07:09:33 PM
I was really confused by your post until I went back and looked at the team stats. I’m shocked Michigan shot so well from the free throw line.  They shot 28-35, only missing 7. Maybe why I had such a negative view is because 6 of the 7 misses were in the last 2:09.

They only missed one foul shot up until that point which to your point is remarkable and honestly some bad luck for MSU.
Yeah I think they made it to like 17-17 before their first miss.  They certainly left the door open with their late misses, but MSUs offense couldn't generate anything but jacking up some guarded threes.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 14, 2018, 09:01:01 PM
OSU remains undefeated in Big Ten play, tied for first place atop the Big Ten standings. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 15, 2018, 01:09:58 AM
I can't seem to post pictures from my phone (files too big), but I enjoyed the game. I'll do a write-up later. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 15, 2018, 12:43:49 PM
Purdue up to #3 in both the AP and Coaches polls...

Games this week at home against Wisconsin and on the road at Iowa. Any game in conference is tough, but the team would have no excuse for losing either. 

That's followed by the Jan 25 home game against Michigan in which I know Michigan will want retribution. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on January 15, 2018, 08:52:03 PM
What an incredible game. I’m not sure if Maryland and Blue both had off games or the defense was stellar. Wild swings in the last 2 minutes and poor foul shooting by Simpson almost cost the boys again. I have no idea why they keep inbounding to him when it’s clearly a fouling situation.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 15, 2018, 08:54:10 PM
Every time a coach elects not to guard the inbounder they are asking to lose.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 15, 2018, 09:18:16 PM
Every time a coach elects not to guard the inbounder they are asking to lose.
This. 
That's why I'm sick of Turgeon. The Maryland fans are livid. 
But, with the whole team sick and on antibiotics, missing Jackson's points, rebounds, and defense, and Bender's contributions, I can't help but be proud of them for fighting. 
Get 'em now, while they're down this year. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 15, 2018, 09:20:25 PM
What an incredible game. I’m not sure if Maryland and Blue both had off games or the defense was stellar. Wild swings in the last 2 minutes and poor foul shooting by Simpson almost cost the boys again. I have no idea why they keep inbounding to him when it’s clearly a fouling situation.
Helps when you make like 8 3's in a row. 
Every team (but Iowa I believe) shoots lights out from 3.
Can't miss.  Throw it up to the rafters, and it goes in. 
Can't believe it every game. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 15, 2018, 10:38:14 PM
This.
That's why I'm sick of Turgeon. The Maryland fans are livid.
But, with the whole team sick and on antibiotics, missing Jackson's points, rebounds, and defense, and Bender's contributions, I can't help but be proud of them for fighting.
Get 'em now, while they're down this year.
He's certainly stocked the roster if someone comes in next year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 15, 2018, 11:39:15 PM
Glad I flipped over just to see the final minute of Nebraska-Illinois
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on January 15, 2018, 11:39:50 PM
One day I will be able to tell my kids about the time Illinois football or basketball won a conference game.

Finding new ways to lose every time.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on January 15, 2018, 11:50:27 PM
It was really ugly (especially early) and much closer than it should've been, but I'll take the win (the last-second in-bounds play was really impressive, which is usually a challenge for Michigan). Thankfully, Michigan has no more regular season games 2 days apart, because the team definitely looked tired tonight.

So long as they play well, the return game to Purdue remains the only game that they shouldn't win.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 16, 2018, 09:24:11 AM
Updated composite computer poll, 39 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Villanova (1)
2.PURDUE (3)
3.Virginia (2)
4.Duke (4)
5.Texas Tech (6)
6.Oklahoma (10)
7.North Carolina (9)
8.West Virginia (7)
9.Kansas (8)
10.MICHIGAN STATE (5)
11.Wichita State (11)
12.Xavier (12)
13.Gonzaga (17)
14.Auburn (19)
15.Cincinnati (15)
16.Clemson (14)
17.Tennessee (20)
18.OHIO STATE (-)
19.Kentucky (24)
20.MICHIGAN (-)
21.Seton Hall (16)
22.Arizona State (13)
23.Arizona (22)
24.TCU (18)
25.Creighton (21)
-
42.Maryland (36)
63.Penn State (58)
64.Minnesota (48)
74.Nebraska (75)
77.Indiana (96)
81.Northwestern (81)
91.Wisconsin (84)
94.Iowa (109)
100.Illinois (83)
132.Rutgers (121)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 16, 2018, 10:01:39 AM
Over the weekend there were two upsets:
The tiers currently are (with +/- for upsets):

In total the upsets so far are:
DateWon@/vLost
4-DecUW@PSU
2-JanUNL@NU
6-JanIU@MN
11-JanIA@ILL
13-JanM@MSU
15-JanMN@PSU

Penn State is our only team at +/-2 and both of their upsets would still be upsets even if we demoted them.  Should we anyway?  I feel like Michigan should be in tier-2 with the Buckeyes.  I also wonder if perhaps Rutgers should be in their own tier-6 but Illinois' home loss to Iowa is making me thing that perhaps the Illini should join them in a new tier-6.  

As it is now, the projected final standings and BTT seeds are:

The match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 16, 2018, 11:22:24 AM
Granted no logical change would make UM over MSU in EL not an upset as far as these go, but I think MSU should probably drop down to 2.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 16, 2018, 12:45:40 PM
Granted no logical change would make UM over MSU in EL not an upset as far as these go, but I think MSU should probably drop down to 2.
I wouldn't go that far just yet. I know they appear to be in a funk right now, but I'd give them a week to see if they pull out of it. They certainly have MORE than enough talent to remain tier 1, and I'll trust Izzo as a coach to right the ship until proven otherwise. And honestly until it happens, I don't see them losing on the road to Maryland, PSU, or Minnesota, all of which would be expected if you drop them. 
I do think Michigan should move up. In the loss to Purdue and obviously the win over MSU, they passed the eye test. This is a good team that's improving as they play deeper into the season IMHO.
Along those lines, though, where do MD, PSU, and MN belong right now? Maryland looks to be in a funk. PSU is -2. MN lost Lynch and without Coffey looks pretty terrible. Is there a clear enough line between PU/MSU/UM/OSU that perhaps there shouldn't even be a tier 3? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 16, 2018, 03:47:48 PM
I agree with Bwar on MSU, at least for now.  Yes, MSU has lost two of their last three, but I also think that they have played three of the top five teams in the B1G in their last four games (UMD, tOSU, M).  

I *think* that at least Maryland is good enough to be in tier-3 but, like Bwar, I have my doubts about PSU and MN.  

Perhaps:
1) PU, MSU
2) tOSU, M
3) UMD
4) PSU, MN, UNL, UW, IU, NU
5) Iowa
6) RU, ILL

Tier-4 *feels* like it has too many teams, but I don't think any of them look good enough to join Maryland and I'm not sure which ones should drop.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 16, 2018, 07:55:07 PM
I knew it would be rough for UW tonight, but this thing is UGLY.

Time to look to the spring game, I reckon.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 16, 2018, 08:57:56 PM
I knew it would be rough for UW tonight, but this thing is UGLY.

Time to look to the spring game, I reckon.
Well, don't take it that hard. Purdue did the same thing to MN on Saturday, and then they turned around and beat PSU.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 17, 2018, 01:33:53 AM
I knew it was bad, but not this bad.... 

We are 7-28 (.200) against ranked teams. That winning percentage is good for 53rd among all P6 teams over the same timespan (that’s 75 teams).

Including his time at TAMU, Mark Turgeon is 0-24 against ranked teams on the road. Expand this to Top 50 (KenPom) road games, and Mark Turgeon is 8-48 (including 6-31 at Maryland). For comparison, since Turge has been at UMD: Beilein is 12-27, Painter 13-23, and Izzo 12-21 in road games against KP top 50. Tom Crean was 8-25 in road top 50 games during his tenure at IU. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 17, 2018, 11:54:03 AM
I've never been a fan of that type of stat. "This coach has trouble beating ranked teams on the road. Fire him now!"

Well, your own stats suggest that EVERY coach has trouble beating top 50 teams on the road. Beilein, Painter, and Izzo are all batting somewhere around 30-36% against ranked teams on the road. Yes, Turgeon is only at ~17% against those similar teams, which isn't great. But that's perhaps better than Crean, who did similarly poorly but with IMHO better overall talent on the roster.

Thing is, beating ranked teams is hard. They're ranked because they're good. Beating them on the road is even harder. Road games in the B1G are brutal even when you're playing unranked teams. Beating a good (ranked or Kenpom top 50) team on their home court is an incredibly difficult task. That's why we say in our tier system that the home team should win every game against their own tier as well as the tier above them. It's only when the team strength disparity rises to two tiers away that we expect a home team to lose to a road team.

Now, maybe Turgeon is underperforming. Maybe he should go. But I hate using that stat [otherwise in a vacuum] to justify it. Or else we'd all be saying Fire Izzo because he's only winning road games against top 50 teams at a 36% rate. I mean, really, Tom Izzo should be above .500 against those teams, right? He's Tom Izzo?!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 17, 2018, 01:27:41 PM
I think he is underperforming, given the talent available to him on a yearly basis.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 17, 2018, 04:25:20 PM
Glad I flipped over just to see the final minute of Nebraska-Illinois
give up 18 offensive boards to the opponent and still win the game?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: CWSooner on January 17, 2018, 07:11:03 PM
I've never been a fan of that type of stat. "This coach has trouble beating ranked teams on the road. Fire him now!"

Well, your own stats suggest that EVERY coach has trouble beating top 50 teams on the road. Beilein, Painter, and Izzo are all batting somewhere around 30-36% against ranked teams on the road. Yes, Turgeon is only at ~17% against those similar teams, which isn't great. But that's perhaps better than Crean, who did similarly poorly but with IMHO better overall talent on the roster.

Thing is, beating ranked teams is hard. They're ranked because they're good. Beating them on the road is even harder. Road games in the B1G are brutal even when you're playing unranked teams. Beating a good (ranked or Kenpom top 50) team on their home court is an incredibly difficult task. That's why we say in our tier system that the home team should win every game against their own tier as well as the tier above them. It's only when the team strength disparity rises to two tiers away that we expect a home team to lose to a road team.

Now, maybe Turgeon is underperforming. Maybe he should go. But I hate using that stat [otherwise in a vacuum] to justify it. Or else we'd all be saying Fire Izzo because he's only winning road games against top 50 teams at a 36% rate. I mean, really, Tom Izzo should be above .500 against those teams, right? He's Tom Izzo?!
I may have posted this here before.  SI did an analysis of home-field/court advantage not too many years ago, and concluded that it is greatest in basketball.  The authors surmised that it was because the officials are intimidated by the crowd being so close at hand.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 17, 2018, 08:41:29 PM

I've never been a fan of that type of stat. "This coach has trouble beating ranked teams on the road. Fire him now!"

Well, your own stats suggest that EVERY coach has trouble beating top 50 teams on the road. Beilein, Painter, and Izzo are all batting somewhere around 30-36% against ranked teams on the road. Yes, Turgeon is only at ~17% against those similar teams, which isn't great. But that's perhaps better than Crean, who did similarly poorly but with IMHO better overall talent on the roster.

Thing is, beating ranked teams is hard. They're ranked because they're good. Beating them on the road is even harder. Road games in the B1G are brutal even when you're playing unranked teams. Beating a good (ranked or Kenpom top 50) team on their home court is an incredibly difficult task. That's why we say in our tier system that the home team should win every game against their own tier as well as the tier above them. It's only when the team strength disparity rises to two tiers away that we expect a home team to lose to a road team.

Now, maybe Turgeon is underperforming. Maybe he should go. But I hate using that stat [otherwise in a vacuum] to justify it. Or else we'd all be saying Fire Izzo because he's only winning road games against top 50 teams at a 36% rate. I mean, really, Tom Izzo should be above .500 against those teams, right? He's Tom Izzo?!
This
I feel like a lot of the time, a number like this is brought out and it makes a really mundane thing seem really dire. Maryland's rank seems concerning, though I'd want to see more context behind it. 
I think of the football example. People would complain about someone winning 28 percent of their ranked games. But if you play 3-4 ranked teams a year and aren't slipping up, that mean's you're an 8-9 win team most of the time. I don't know that MT's ranked record equates to three seeds between 6 and 4 and a sweet 16. Maybe. 
One thing that is interesting is how many ranked teams MD ends up facing.
2018 2 in 20 games
2017 2 total
2016 6 in the regular season
2015 4
ACC
2014 7
2013 4
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 17, 2018, 08:46:05 PM
I think he is underperforming, given the talent available to him on a yearly basis.
I think sometimes talent gives us big eyes. 
By that I mean, we see some and think, that team should be something better, but what isn't super clear. The overall accomplishments are fairly good: 93-31 in the Big Ten era, two second-place finishes and a third, a sweet 16. The schedule might be soft, and maybe they should be a power contending with MSU every year, I dunno. 
(I'd love to see how they rank in top-100 recruits)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 17, 2018, 09:00:18 PM
I think he is underperforming, given the talent available to him on a yearly basis.
Exactly. If we were say, Clemson in a typical year, I'd say there's nothing to complain about.
However, McDonald's AA's, top 25 classes, and such, should be better than that record.
We should be ranked every year, or at least make the tournament.

I'll also add, that no other team or coach (Gary Williams) has more wins vs UNC and Duke, and they've always been ranked pretty high. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 17, 2018, 10:59:12 PM
OSU remains undefeated in Conference play, tied atop the Big Ten standings. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: fezzador on January 18, 2018, 08:42:35 AM
Iowa got blasted by Rutgers last night.  Rutgers.

I don't think the Hawks win another game the rest of the way.  Frankie Mac has hit his ceiling.  It's approaching Lickliter bad.  It's time for a change.

And it's also time for a change at AD.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on January 18, 2018, 08:47:09 AM
I knew it would be rough for UW tonight, but this thing is UGLY.

Time to look to the spring game, I reckon.
you sound like a husker fan... =)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on January 18, 2018, 09:37:47 AM
I may have posted this here before.  SI did an analysis of home-field/court advantage not too many years ago, and concluded that it is greatest in basketball.  The authors surmised that it was because the officials are intimidated by the crowd being so close at hand.
Bingo! I've been saying this for years.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 18, 2018, 11:09:00 AM
Just looked at OSUs schedule.  Their next seven games have to be about as easy a 7 game conference stretch as you'll see.

12-0 is very possible.
I hope I don't jinx this, but it is looking more and more possible.  
I'm concerned about Ohio State's next two:
- Minnesota: I think the Buckeyes are pretty clearly better than the injury/suspension riddled Gophers but this will be Ohio State's third straight game away from home. The Gophers will be on a short (Thursday/Saturday) turnaround and also on their third straight away from home but you never know who that will impact the most. The Gophers looked flat awful against Purdue, but Purdue does that to teams. The rebounded with a nice win at Penn State. This could be tough for the Buckeyes.
- Nebraska: The Cornhuskers haven't been very good although they did win at Northwestern a lot more convincingly than the Buckeyes did. I am confident that the Buckeyes are a better team at this point and playing at home so they *should* win, but this game is on a very short turnaround (Saturday/Monday) after three straight road games so a slip-up wouldn't be shocking. Nebraska gets a bigger break (Thursday/Monday) leading up to this game.
After these two the Buckeyes some rest and no more short turnarounds for a while along with three straight home games against teams that are currently 3-4, 4-2, an 0-6 in the conference.
I don't want to jinx it, but if the Buckeyes can win these next two there is a great chance that they could get to 12-0 heading into the Purdue game on February 7. Ohio State finishes up with brutal stretch of four on the road and only two at home but if they get to 12-0 then a 2-4 finish still puts them at 14-4 and a lock for the NCAA heading into the BTT at MSG in NYC.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 18, 2018, 12:36:32 PM
We should be ranked every year, or at least make the tournament.
I think for most major-conference teams, making the tournament should be the goal every year. It may not always happen--Beilein and Painter, who both have better records against KenPom top 50, have both missed it a few times. But I think that should be the benchmark for a high major, especially one with the history and talent of Maryland.
Ranked? That's a higher bar, and I'm not sure that can be the expectation every year. Most programs will have some ebb and flow, and missing the top 25 isn't nearly as big of an issue as missing the tournament.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 18, 2018, 02:58:12 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTy9okYVoAA4nZx.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 18, 2018, 03:32:34 PM
Not used to seeing so much Buckeye love in the basketball thread. 

Congrats on the great season so far. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 18, 2018, 04:43:03 PM
Not used to seeing so much Buckeye love in the basketball thread.

Congrats on the great season so far.
I've been involved in this thread, but it has been very frustrating to be a Buckeye Hoops fan the past few years.  I think all of us are elated at this point because before the season most of us thought the Buckeyes would be in the bottom third or so of the conference and that the NIT was a somewhat optimistic goal.  Now we are looking at a 7-0 team that is tied with Purdue for first in the conference!  Yeah, we are thrilled!
The other thing is that, to be honest, this is more exciting than being a Buckeye football fan because in football, rightly or wrongly, we EXPECT to contend for the NC every year so basically the situation is NC or disappointment.  In BB, especially given what we have been through the past few years, we are getting to experience the euphoria of exceeding expectations and that basically never happens in football because expectations are always so high that exceeding them is basically impossible.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 18, 2018, 04:59:30 PM
The Worldwide Leader's latest Braketology is out and the B1G still has five teams in but there is some movement:

Only Maryland is on the Bubble and we do not have any teams among either the "First Four Out" or the "Next Four Out".  

Obviously a lot can change between now and mid-March but as of now they have:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 18, 2018, 08:55:36 PM
I said a while back, Maryland won't be in it. 

If they make it, I'd be greatly surprised. 

No depth. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 18, 2018, 11:20:48 PM
I said a while back, Maryland won't be in it.

If they make it, I'd be greatly surprised.

No depth.
Looking more and more like Maryland or bust for getting a 5th team in though.  I just have a hard time seeing the conference getting only 4.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on January 19, 2018, 12:13:04 AM
Props to Nebraska for their win tonight.

Michigan looked bad, though give Nebraska some credit for that. They couldn't get enough open 3s or drive to the rim well enough, while committing an absurd number of turnovers. Defensively, they focused too much on defending the perimeter for some reason and got beat at the rim repeatedly, instead.

Fortunately, the toughest part of the schedule is over except for going to Purdue next week after playing Rutgers at home on Sunday. This team won't win the league or get a high enough seed to be sent to the Detroit regional, but if they draw the right matchups, they can make a run in the tournament.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 19, 2018, 07:46:14 AM
Technically there were no surprises last night but Michigan's loss at Nebraska means that they are now 0-2 in games that a tier-2 team should win but a tier-3 team should lose so I think the idea of promoting Michigan to tier-2 needs to be tabled.  

FWIW:
The games that a tier-2 team should win but a tier-3 team should lose are:
There are six potential games of this type:
Of the six, Michigan:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 19, 2018, 07:59:43 AM
Lincoln was electric last night.  Granted a Thursday night vs. Saturday at noon is different, but hopefully at least some members of the Izzone saw that.  Used to be one of the best student sections in the nation, and now, I honestly couldn't tell a difference between the Maryland game (when the students were still gone) and the Michigan game (when they were back) other than the white shirts.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on January 19, 2018, 09:01:30 AM
I said a while back, Maryland won't be in it.

If they make it, I'd be greatly surprised.

No depth.
I'm doubtful too, but the recent play of Josh Tomaic is encouraging, and helps fill the hole left by the devastating front-court injuries.  It seems like he played more minutes last night alone (25) than he did in all of November and December.  And he was solid with 7 points and 5 rebounds.  He's not the player that Jackson or Bender are yet, but as time goes on I think they might make it work.
Losing in Ann Arbor was painful -- until I remember that they won a game they shouldn't have won in Illinois in almost exactly the same way earlier.  ;)
They'll be at home a lot in the next few weeks, that might help too.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 19, 2018, 09:23:53 AM
Indiana and Michigan State are currently tied for 3rd/4th and they play tonight in E. Lansing.  

When that game ends the top of the standings will be:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 19, 2018, 09:35:23 AM

What is the Top Seven's record vs the Bottom Seven? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 19, 2018, 11:21:33 AM
What is the Top Seven's record vs the Bottom Seven?
So far the only top-7 losses to the bottom-7 are:

Note that PU, tOSU, MSU, M, and UMD have NOT lost to a bottom-7 team.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 19, 2018, 11:31:15 AM
So far the only top-7 losses to the bottom-7 are:
  • IU at UW
  • UNL at PSU

Note that PU, tOSU, MSU, M, and UMD have NOT lost to a bottom-7 team.  
I actually think the first year we did "tiers" it was just a top 6 and a bottom 6.  Maybe like 2005 or 2006?  Or maybe a top 5 and a bottom 7?  That basically everyone was just winning their home games against the group, and there was such a gap between the groups that there were no crossover wins from the bottom half.  I think we broke it once late, and I seem to recall it being PSU who did so.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on January 19, 2018, 11:49:01 AM
I realize over 30 games and with college kids, you will see bad performances or games where they seem distracted.   UNL has athletes and they are long.   If teams can keep them from driving to the lane, the offense stalls.   If they can attack the basket, they do fine.   My impression is that really is the determining factor between UNL playing well or UNL looking like.. well, UNL in the past.  

In other words, my "lack of trust" has evolved into how UNL matches up in terms of driving to the basket. 

That said, I sense things in Lincoln are good for Miles and the team.   Flirting with the tourney or being on the bubble is success for this program.   I personally believe that flirting with the in or out is the first step and should be the goal for a few years before expecting more.   Like most sports at UNL, you have to walk before you can run. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 19, 2018, 12:34:44 PM
I'm fine with the Bubble being the goal this season, but next season and going forward getting into the tourney should be the goal
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 19, 2018, 12:35:36 PM
was a fun game for the fans, players and for Tim Miles last night

you could tell how much Miles enjoyed it
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 19, 2018, 12:39:25 PM
I have an issue in the tier projections.  

Ohio State and Minnesota play tomorrow at MSG in NYC.  That, obviously, is a neutral site.  The problem in the projections is that I have been treating it as a Minnesota home game because Minnesota has eight home games, nine road games, and the Ohio State game at MSG while Ohio State has nine home games, eight road games, and the Minnesota game at MSG.  

This creates a few issues:

There is no obvious good way to correct this in the spreadsheet because I start with our double-round-robin projection then back out games not played.  This game IS played, it is just played at an alternative location.  

My plan is to leave the projection spreadsheet as is, but everyone should be aware that if Ohio State wins they will show up as having an "upset" win that isn't really an upset and if Ohio State loses they will NOT show up as having an "upset" loss even though in reality they do.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 19, 2018, 12:46:07 PM
Seems like a fair way to handle it, @medinabuckeye1 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1547) 

I would agree that since this is a neutral court, higher tier team should win. 

Good thing it wasn't two teams in the same tier on a neutral court though, as that would have been messy!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 19, 2018, 01:03:24 PM
Also noteworthy is that OSU and the fraternal MI twins are the only three schools to be in our top-seven for both Helmets and Hoops, whereas Minnesota, Rutgers and Illinois are the only three to achieve dual bottom-seven status. 

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 19, 2018, 03:19:32 PM
Also noteworthy is that OSU and the fraternal MI twins are the only three schools to be in our top-seven for both Helmets and Hoops, whereas Minnesota, Rutgers and Illinois are the only three to achieve dual bottom-seven status.


It feels weird that UW is not in that top 7 club for both, after being there for the past couple of decades.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 19, 2018, 04:31:44 PM
Also weird is that Nebraska is top seven in Hoops and bottom seven in Football, instead of the other way around. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 19, 2018, 04:56:34 PM
According to Bleacher Report, here are the Top 10 Teams Built to Dominate March Madness (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754597-the-10-college-basketball-teams-best-built-for-march-madness-dominance)...

They basically say that elite defense is essentially a must. But some of the critical things that define teams poised to go to the Final Four or all the way are:


Hence why they rated Purdue as their #1. 

MSU was #5, BTW.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 19, 2018, 05:26:55 PM
According to Bleacher Report, here are the Top 10 Teams Built to Dominate March Madness (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754597-the-10-college-basketball-teams-best-built-for-march-madness-dominance)...

They basically say that elite defense is essentially a must. But some of the critical things that define teams poised to go to the Final Four or all the way are:

  • KenPom Top-20 defensive efficiency (Purdue is 5th)
  • At least one multiyear starter in the backcourt (PJ Thompson, Dakota Mathias as guards, Carsen Edwards is a soph and started last year)
  • At least one player with a proven ability to catch fire from three-point range (PJ, Dakota, Cline, CEdwards, and VEdwards can all light it up)
  • A positive turnover margin (Purdue is +1.8 per game)
  • A bunch of quality wins (Sagarin has us 3-0 vs his top 25 and 7-1 vs his top 50)
  • At least one lengthy winning streak before the end of January (currently won 14 straight)

Hence why they rated Purdue as their #1.

MSU was #5, BTW.
I can't disagree.  They really only have one March obstacle to overcome
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/70fe4f3e38df880299b7a43595148e2f3f4830b2/c=0-0-1999-1503&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2017/11/28/INGroup/LafayetteIN/636475071265140869-LAF-Louisville-at-Purdue-23.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 19, 2018, 05:38:04 PM
Looking forward to this weekend's games:

Friday:
Indiana at Michigan State:  Are the Hoosiers getting better or are they just playing bad opponents?  Can MSU get out of their now three-game slump and get back to looking like the team that was ranked #1 a couple weeks ago?  MSU and IU are tied at 4-2 but IU's wins are over Iowa, MN, PSU, and NU.  Their only road win was over a reeling MN team.  The winner stays within two games of the top of the conference.  

Illinois at Wisconsin:  Wisconsin's long streaks of making the NCAA streak and finishing in the top-4 of the conference are on life support at this point.  They are 2-4 in the league and below .500 overall.  They would need to win our (or very close to it) to have a chance to keep either streak alive (excepting of course that, at least in theory, they could keep their NCAA streak alive by winning the BTT at MSG in NYC).  The Badgers should beat a now 0-6 Illinois team and with Iowa coming up next week they might keep their dreams alive for another week.  

Saturday:
Purdue at Iowa:  The Boilermakers are 7-0 and this is far from their toughest test.  It shouldn't be much of a game but it is at Carver-Hawkeye . . .

Penn State at Northwestern:  If the Lions could get a road win here it would help to make up for their home losses to both Wisconsin and Minnesota. Still, their at-large bid hopes are fading fast.  Northwestern is a MAJOR disappointment this year.  They are running out of time to turn it around.  

Ohio State vs Minnesota (at MSG):  The surprising Buckeyes are tied atop the conference at 7-0 while the surprising (the other way) Gophers are reeling at 3-5.  A month or so ago I thought this was a sure win for the Gophers.  Now it looks like Ohio State is a heavy favorite.  We'll see.  

Sunday:
Rutgers at Michigan:  Michigan needs a bounce-back after getting run off the court in Lincoln.  The Scarlet Knights looked pretty good at home against Iowa and would love to keep that going but I just don't see it happening.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 19, 2018, 07:25:24 PM
I can't disagree.  They really only have one March obstacle to overcome
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/70fe4f3e38df880299b7a43595148e2f3f4830b2/c=0-0-1999-1503&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2017/11/28/INGroup/LafayetteIN/636475071265140869-LAF-Louisville-at-Purdue-23.jpg)
Ouch!
Also, not exactly correct. While people like to lambast Painter for never getting past the Sweet 16, very few of his teams were truly expected to. Even the best team he's ever had prior to this year, the year when Hummel/Johnson/Moore were juniors and Kramer was a senior, the ACL tear Hummel had derailed the season. 
Every year Purdue has made the sweet 16, they faced the 1 seed in that game. They never were the ones to get lucky enough to have the 8/9 winner knock off the 1. Up until last year, the other 1 seeds they faced were UConn (made it to the Final Four) and Duke (won the whole damn thing).
Last year, Purdue had a good team, but was still only a 4 seed. They faced Kansas in the Sweet 16, held the lead for much of the first half, and the game was within 2 points about 5 minutes into the 2nd half. And then Kansas just went crazy and couldn't miss. 
And that team last year had a problem. They just weren't athletic enough. Swanigan was a beast, but he can't guard an athletic 4. Haas is a human mountain, but can't guard away from the basket. Carsen Edwards was athletic, but he was still a freshman playing too fast for himself.
This year's different. Carsen is letting the game flow to him but still can turn up the pace on command. Haarms is the athletic, tall stretch big that can help against more athletic 4's or 5's that give Haas trouble. Eastern is a frosh point guard who can play enough minutes and is a big, 6'6" guy who is athletic enough to give opponents fits when he defends. And that's who you have supporting the cast of 4 seniors who have all basically started together since their freshman years and know the game inside and out.
I'm not sure how Purdue is going to finish the season. But I honestly believe that this is Matt Painter's best team -- even better than the Hummel/Johnson/Moore/Kramer year before Hummel's injury. This team lost the Big Ten Player of the Year... And got better.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on January 19, 2018, 10:33:28 PM
Looking more and more like Maryland or bust for getting a 5th team in though.  I just have a hard time seeing the conference getting only 4.
I wouldn't count out Neb.  PSU is still the team that I argue hard should be in the mix and hasn't really been close.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 20, 2018, 01:04:56 PM
Schneider Herard just committed. 

A transfer out of Mississippi State. 

Can play middle of next year I believe. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 20, 2018, 01:50:34 PM
For the next two minutes the Buckeyes are alone in first place in the B1G
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 20, 2018, 01:52:23 PM
Purdue just set the record for most made 3-pointers in a conference game with 20, and tied the most made 3-pointers for a B1G team in any game. And they've been going deep into the bench for the last 10 minutes of the game.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 20, 2018, 01:55:26 PM
Nice
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 20, 2018, 01:56:55 PM
Purdue wasted that on Iowa.  They would have run any team in the country out of the gym today.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 20, 2018, 02:21:34 PM
Buckeyes remain undefeated in Conference play, tied for first place atop the Big Ten standings. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 20, 2018, 03:57:41 PM
Buckeyes remain undefeated in Conference play, tied for first place atop the Big Ten standings.
I didn't see the game.  The box score was weird, the Bucks only made 4 threes and only shot 10 free throws, but won in a walk
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 20, 2018, 05:15:54 PM
Purdue wasted that on Iowa.  They would have run any team in the country out of the gym today.
raining 3s on the road
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 20, 2018, 11:15:00 PM
I didn't see the game.  The box score was weird, the Bucks only made 4 threes and only shot 10 free throws, but won in a walk
Even weirder, in 66 possessions, OSU had 66 shots, 10 free throws and Minnesota had 47 and 20, half of which they missed. OSU’s offense was far from great, but the defense was nails across the board, with nothing looking spectacular statistically beside 3 defense (turnovers I suppose)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 21, 2018, 11:14:57 AM
Purdue wasted that on Iowa.  They would have run any team in the country out of the gym today.
IIRC, I heard that there were two venues that these seniors had never won in, Michigan and Iowa, so they were on a personal mission to win those two specifically.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 21, 2018, 04:05:23 PM
IIRC, I heard that there were two venues that these seniors had never won in, Michigan and Iowa, so they were on a personal mission to win those two specifically.
I thought there were three... Obviously with wins in Ann Arbor and Iowa City, that covered 2 of 3...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 21, 2018, 06:35:16 PM
KenPom rankings

1. Purdue (2)
2. MSU (5)
3. OSU (11)
4. Michigan (27)
5. Maryland (38)
6. PSU (63)
7. Nebraska (67)
8. Wisconsin (80)
9. Minnesota (82)
10. NW (90)
11. Indiana (97)
12. Iowa (101)
13. Illinois (105)
14. Rutgers (117)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 22, 2018, 09:18:11 AM
I am definitely worried about the Ohio State game tonight.  The Buckeyes look to be clearly a better team than the Cornhuskers but Ohio State is on a short turn-around (Sat-Mon) and coming off of three straight games away from home (Jersey, Chicago, NYC).  Meanwhile the Cornhuskers are coming off of one of their best performances of the year (20 point win over Michigan) and playing on more rest and off of back-to-back home games.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 22, 2018, 09:27:58 AM
That does indeed sound problematic. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 12:14:06 PM
Lunardi now has OSU joining MSU on the 3 line.  Has there ever been a runaway choice for COTY like this?  This is as good a job as I can recall in the Big Ten ever in terms of overachieving based on preseason expectations.

They actually remind me a lot of 2012 MSU.  Coming off a disappointing 2011 season, where they were preseason #2, had two starters get the boot for weed, and barely limped into the tourney as a 10 seed.  Then graduated Lucas and Summers, and Roe retired due his knee.  Draymond Green went from good player to Big Ten Player of the Year caliber (like Bates-Diop is doing), and while they didn't really have any stars around him, it just all worked better, and a lot of role players contributed more than expected.  They won the Big Ten regular season and BTT titles, and got to the Sweet 16.  I think OSU's expectations this year were even lower though because they additionally had the coaching turnover.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 22, 2018, 12:32:59 PM
Has there ever been a runaway choice for COTY like this?  This is as good a job as I can recall in the Big Ten ever in terms of overachieving based on preseason expectations.
So put it another way. What will it take for Painter to beat out Holtmann for COY? Because I agree with you that his job has been absolutely stellar, and as far as "exceeding expectations", he's knocked it out of the park.
For Painter, I think it might take a 17-1 or better record, and neither loss can be to MSU or OSU. I think he might be excused from dropping a game, but it certainly can't be to OSU as then Holtmann has wins over both Izzo and Painter [on the road, no less].
And OSU would have to probably fall to 15-3. If OSU is 17-1 with a loss to Purdue, I think Holtmann wins it even if Purdue is the only B1G team in 40 years to go undefeated in conference play. If Purdue is 18-0 and OSU is 16-2, I think it might still be Painter. But I think it'll take 15-3 for OSU not to win it if Purdue goes 17-1. 
Thoughts? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 22, 2018, 12:48:39 PM
So put it another way. What will it take for Painter to beat out Holtmann for COY? Because I agree with you that his job has been absolutely stellar, and as far as "exceeding expectations", he's knocked it out of the park.
For Painter, I think it might take a 17-1 or better record, and neither loss can be to MSU or OSU. I think he might be excused from dropping a game, but it certainly can't be to OSU as then Holtmann has wins over both Izzo and Painter [on the road, no less].
And OSU would have to probably fall to 15-3. If OSU is 17-1 with a loss to Purdue, I think Holtmann wins it even if Purdue is the only B1G team in 40 years to go undefeated in conference play. If Purdue is 18-0 and OSU is 16-2, I think it might still be Painter. But I think it'll take 15-3 for OSU not to win it if Purdue goes 17-1.
Thoughts?
I think if Purdue isn’t undefeated, 14-4 or even 13-5 might get it done for OSU.
The narrative is that strong. OSU was supposed to be 10th before an absurdly late coaching change. Purdue’s case is that it went from very good to great after losing a NPOY, but returning about everything else. 
It’s OSU’s with some cushion unless 18-0. You also could get a split, as happened in 2014 and 2015 (fun tidbit, there were no good candidates in 2013. They gave it to Bo Ryan, who had his worst team since 2009.)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 12:54:29 PM
So put it another way. What will it take for Painter to beat out Holtmann for COY? Because I agree with you that his job has been absolutely stellar, and as far as "exceeding expectations", he's knocked it out of the park.
For Painter, I think it might take a 17-1 or better record, and neither loss can be to MSU or OSU. I think he might be excused from dropping a game, but it certainly can't be to OSU as then Holtmann has wins over both Izzo and Painter [on the road, no less].
And OSU would have to probably fall to 15-3. If OSU is 17-1 with a loss to Purdue, I think Holtmann wins it even if Purdue is the only B1G team in 40 years to go undefeated in conference play. If Purdue is 18-0 and OSU is 16-2, I think it might still be Painter. But I think it'll take 15-3 for OSU not to win it if Purdue goes 17-1.
Thoughts?
Same reason Meyer never wins coach of the year.  I don't think there's anything Painter can do to win it.  It's on OSU, they need a monumental collapse.  Like 12-6 type collapse.  I think the question with OSU was whether they'd even be able to avoid playing on Wednesday in NYC.  Purdue is only sliightly better than I figured they'd be.  I think Nebraska and Michigan have possibly exceeded my expectations (which is all that award really is) more than Purdue has.
Granted I was the one at the end of last season, saying even after Bridges came back, Purdue was my 1b to MSU's 1a, that both looked loaded to me.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 01:01:50 PM
Purdue holds at #3, MSU up 3 spots to #6, OSU up 9 to #13, UM down 2 to #25.  Nobody else getting votes
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 22, 2018, 04:16:18 PM
Same reason Meyer never wins coach of the year.  I don't think there's anything Painter can do to win it.  It's on OSU, they need a monumental collapse.  Like 12-6 type collapse.  I think the question with OSU was whether they'd even be able to avoid playing on Wednesday in NYC.  Purdue is only sliightly better than I figured they'd be.  I think Nebraska and Michigan have possibly exceeded my expectations (which is all that award really is) more than Purdue has.
Granted I was the one at the end of last season, saying even after Bridges came back, Purdue was my 1b to MSU's 1a, that both looked loaded to me.
I could easily see it being a split.  Looking through the preseason polls, most knowledgeable sources (including the unofficial coaches poll) had Purdue in the 2 slot.  So Purdue's success this year won't really be considered a surprise to the coaches.  It was the other media sources that had Purdue down in the 4th through 6th level, usually behind MSU, Minnesota, NW, and sometimes Michigan (and occasionally, laughably, behind IU).  So to the media, Purdue is a much bigger surprise.

I'd say if Purdue goes undefeated and OSU has 4 losses, it's Painter's.  3 losses or less for OSU and it goes to Holtman.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 22, 2018, 04:28:21 PM
ELA already referred to Meyer never winning COTY in football but you have to look back a lot further than that to find an Ohio State football coach winning COTY.  I believe the last one was Bruce in his first year, 1979.  

COTY awards are basically an award for the coach of the team that most exceeded expectations.  Ohio State never wins it in football because the expectations are too high.  They can't be exceeded by much.  Painter/Purdue faces the same problem this year.  Even if Purdue does manage to go 18-0, that is only what, 3-4 games better than expected?  If Ohio State goes 12-6 (which at this point would require a disastrous 4-6 finish) then the Buckeyes will still have exceeded expectations more than even an undefeated Purdue.  

I think for Painter/Purdue to win it would require both an extremely strong finish (like probably 18-0) by Purdue and a stupendous collapse (like probably 12-6) by Ohio State.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 22, 2018, 05:07:13 PM
Yes and no.  Going undefeated in this league is a BIG deal (see what I did there.... :)).  Hasn't been done in 40 years I believe.  So if Purdue manages to go 18-0 (which for that matter, it would be the first time ever that a coach went 18-0 in the Big Ten), that would carry a lot of weight and get a decent amount of media attention.  That's why I say that it would eclipse OSU if they have 4 losses.  3 losses or less for OSU and Holtman gets it regardless.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 05:30:21 PM
Yes and no.  Going undefeated in this league is a BIG deal (see what I did there.... :)).  Hasn't been done in 40 years I believe.  So if Purdue manages to go 18-0 (which for that matter, it would be the first time ever that a coach went 18-0 in the Big Ten), that would carry a lot of weight and get a decent amount of media attention.  That's why I say that it would eclipse OSU if they have 4 losses.  3 losses or less for OSU and Holtman gets it regardless.
Pretty interesting comparison to what just happened in football.  MSU was coming off 3-9, with most saying somewhere between that and maybe 5-7 or 6-6 for 2017.  They went 10-3, including 7-2 in Big Ten play.  Wisconsin was supposed to be really good, but wound up going (9-0) 12-0.  PC won COTY.  I think that's a pretty dead on comparison if Purdue goes 18-0 and OSU goes like 15-3.
I think what's working against OSU in football is that they are OSU.  They are the top program in the conference.  So not only are they expected to always be really good, so they can't exceed expectations, we aren't even impressed by how hard to expectations are.  Wisconsin football is more like Purdue basketball.  A really good program, but still to the point where we can appreciate how high the expectations are.  So I do think Painter has a better shot than Meyer does.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 05:38:07 PM
Updated composite computer poll, 41 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Villanova (1)
2.PURDUE (2)
3.Virginia (3)
4.Duke (4)
5.Kansas (9)
6.North Carolina (7)
7.West Virginia (8)
8.MICHIGAN STATE (10)
9.Xavier (12)
10.Cincinnati (15)
11.Clemson (16)
12.OHIO STATE (18)
13.Auburn (14)
14.Texas Tech (5)
15.Oklahoma (6)
16.Tennessee (17)
17.Gonzaga (13)
18.Arizona (23)
19.Florida (-)
20.Nevada (-)
21.Wichita State (11)
22.Saint Mary's (-)
23.TCU (24)
24.Rhode Island (-)
25.Creighton (25)
-
27.Michigan (20)
39.Maryland (42)
60.Nebraska (74)
66.Minnesota (64)
77.Penn State (63)
86.Northwestern (81)
89.Wisconsin (91)
91.Indiana (77)
111.Iowa (94)
118.Illinois (100)
120.Rutgers (132)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 05:39:25 PM
And good lord, THREE teams ranked outside the top 110?  I think there were years where we didn't have a single team ranked lower than like 90th.

I guess that's why we are also 5th among conferences, behind Big XII, SEC, Big East and ACC.  Only ahead of the mess that is the Pac 12.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 22, 2018, 05:52:39 PM
Yes and no.  Going undefeated in this league is a BIG deal (see what I did there.... :)).  Hasn't been done in 40 years I believe.  So if Purdue manages to go 18-0 (which for that matter, it would be the first time ever that a coach went 18-0 in the Big Ten), that would carry a lot of weight and get a decent amount of media attention.  That's why I say that it would eclipse OSU if they have 4 losses.  3 losses or less for OSU and Holtman gets it regardless.
Yes, going undefeated is a big (or as you put it, B1G) deal.  If that happens, I wonder how much consideration will be given to what a mess this conference is this year.  I do not mean to preliminary diminish Purdue's hypothetical accomplishment but ELA's latest post just pointed out that we have three sub 110 teams and remember that Purdue only plays the 2nd and 3rd best teams once each.  
I do concede that I was too strong in my projection that it would take 18-0/12-6.  I think you are right at least to the extent that 18-0 would do it if Ohio State finished 13-5 or worse.  18-0/14-4 might depend on how strong the 18-0 and 14-4 look.  Ie, I think there might be a difference between a dominant 18-0 and an 18-0 with a bunch of close wins and the same thing for Ohio State.  
I think we all agree that, barring a stupendous collapse by Ohio State, Paniter/Purdue will need to be undefeated for this to even be much of a discussion.  Going undefeated is basically a trump card and without it I don't think Purdue's hand is strong enough to make it a worthwhile discussion.  Ie, the 4-game difference between 18-0 and 14-4 is MUCH bigger than the 4-game difference between 17-1 and 13-5.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 22, 2018, 05:59:59 PM

Big Ten COTY is an everybody gets a trophy award.

If a coach wins the actual championship hardware, then they should be exempt from the tallest midget trophy. 

Give that nonsense to a bubble team that sat home the year before. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 06:01:27 PM
Big Ten COTY is an everybody gets a trophy award.

If a coach wins the actual championship hardware, then they should be exempt from the tallest midget trophy.

Give that nonsense to a bubble team that sat home the year before.
It's not a tallest midget award.  It's a most exceeds expectations award.  Plenty of coaches have won it in years where they also won the conference.  Just not when they were expected to win the conference.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 22, 2018, 07:54:57 PM
OSU has had their best FB seasons during years where expectations were low. 

It is often comical to witness some of the mental gymnastics that the Conference will go through in order to find someone else, anyone else, to give that trophy to. 

Big Ten: This coach went 5-7 when he was only supposed to go 4-8. Can you believe it? They might even get to play in a Bowl Game.

Rest of League: OMG! That's amazing? We should have hired him! What were we thinking? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 08:03:01 PM
OSU has had their best FB seasons during years where expectations were low.

It is often comical to witness some of the mental gymnastics that the Conference will go through in order to find someone else, anyone else, to give that trophy to.

Big Ten: This coach went 5-7 when he was only supposed to go 4-8. Can you believe it? They might even get to play in a Bowl Game.

Rest of League: OMG! That's amazing? We should have hired him! What were we thinking?
Please name the 5-7 coach who won the Coach of the Year
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 22, 2018, 08:35:49 PM
Big Ten COTY is an everybody gets a trophy award.

If a coach wins the actual championship hardware, then they should be exempt from the tallest midget trophy.

Give that nonsense to a bubble team that sat home the year before.
Everybody gets a trophy is a stupid and nonsensical metaphore. It just about means anything someone aggrieved wants it to mean. 
Here we have someone saying it’s part of everyone getting a trophy becuase everyone apparently can’t get this trophy. It’s kind of amazing. 
Let’s all agree it’s a kind of silly award. It seems weird y’all want one so damn bad, but whatever. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 22, 2018, 08:42:21 PM
I'd be really happy if Gard won it this year, but I ain't gonna hold my breath on that one.

Getting past Iowa tomorrow will be tough enough.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 22, 2018, 08:47:35 PM
Everybody gets a trophy is a stupid and nonsensical metaphore. It just about means anything someone aggrieved wants it to mean.
Here we have someone saying it’s part of everyone getting a trophy becuase everyone apparently can’t get this trophy. It’s kind of amazing.
Let’s all agree it’s a kind of silly award. It seems weird y’all want one so damn bad, but whatever.
FWIW:  On the Ohio State boards, a LOT of tOSU fans get salty about the fact that it has been nearly 40 years since our coach has won COTY in spite of the fact that our team has been clearly the best in the league over that stretch.  This complaint makes some intuitive sense.  If Ohio State has had the best program over the past 40 years then it stands to reason that our program has had the best coach at least a few times in that span.  
I've always responded by explaining that our coach never wins COTY in football because the award is really the "Coach of the team that most exceeded expectations" award and expectations are so high for tOSU football that it is essentially impossible for our coach to win that award.  That doesn't satisfy everyone, but I think most over there accept it.  
I can tell you that if Painter wins COTY there will be a slew of infuriated Ohio State fans who will point out that our football coach never wins COTY due to high expectations and the same should apply in Basketball.  
I don't care too much about the award per-se, but I do care about the principle.  In football the Ohio State coach has not won COTY due to high expectations and the same should apply in BB.  Barring a stupendous collapse the B1G COTY should be Holtmann.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 22, 2018, 08:49:40 PM
Where did I indicate that I badly wanted one?

I want OSU to win real Trophies; the kind you get for winning Bowl Games, NCs, Big Ten Titles, B1G East Titles, rivalry games, maybe a Heisman Trophy here and there. 

Let everyone else fight over the COTY consolation prize. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 22, 2018, 08:49:51 PM
If OSU keeps doing what it's doing, there will be a COTY award in Columbus.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 22, 2018, 08:53:11 PM
Wow!

The hosing is in full force in Bloomington. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on January 22, 2018, 08:55:51 PM
Nebby looking pretty good. only down 2 at half.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 22, 2018, 09:08:22 PM
SMH 

Clean game up until the last 8 minutes. 

Smooth home cooking. 

I cringe every time I see Eades anymore. 

What a joke of a game at the end. Cowan was hammered all game,  got no calls. 

NIT
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 22, 2018, 09:09:42 PM
Where did I indicate that I badly wanted one?

I want OSU to win real Trophies; the kind you get for winning Bowl Games, NCs, Big Ten Titles, B1G East Titles, rivalry games, maybe a Heisman Trophy here and there.

Let everyone else fight over the COTY consolation prize.
If you're mad you can't get one, you want one. Or you want to be mad about it. Which is not great either. (I kinda want to do a study of which years OSU had a case, but that'll probably further sidetrack this)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 22, 2018, 09:14:55 PM
On this actual topic, for a second, it sounded as if D'Mitrik Trice might return to the court soon. It now appears that's not the case. 

And as such, UW's mess of a year will go on. The Badgers long had a rep as developers, turning fine players into good ones, or at least system ones. At this point, UW has five scholarship juniors. Only one is better than an inconsistent role player. One is an inconsistent role player, the other three are not in the lineup. There are no scholarship seniors. Hope the six underclassmen can take some kind of jump.

:91:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 22, 2018, 09:18:32 PM
Whoever made these schedules should be fired. 

I knew at the start of the year this would hurt continuity and confidence. 

It's great for the really good, experienced teams, but horrible for young teams. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 09:22:54 PM
I said jokingly that against Illinois' defensive style MSU might shoot 65% but have 25 turnovers....

Well at the first media timeout they are 4-4 from the floor with 4 turnovers, so...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 09:32:22 PM
I said jokingly that against Illinois' defensive style MSU might shoot 65% but have 25 turnovers....

Well at the first media timeout they are 4-4 from the floor with 4 turnovers, so...
9-10 with 8 turnovers at the 10 minute mark.  Illinois' has zero team rebounds.  Every MSU possession has ended with a basket or a TO.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 22, 2018, 09:42:10 PM
If you're mad you can't get one, you want one. Or you want to be mad about it. Which is not great either. (I kinda want to do a study of which years OSU had a case, but that'll probably further sidetrack this)
Mocking the trophy and wanting the trophy are two different things. 
It would never happen for a multitude of reasons, but I personally would love to see an OSU FB coach decline the award.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 09:47:45 PM
When/if Underwood fills this roster, Illinois' is going to be a royal pain in the ass to play.  They already are not your typical last place team.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 22, 2018, 09:58:43 PM

OSU remains undefeated in Big Ten play, tied... er, since Purdue has a bye-half-week, sitting alone atop the Big Ten standings.



(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUMM38wXUAMwIPW.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 10:09:09 PM
Another thing that just occurred to me about college teams not doing 2 for 1s is the clock running in the first half.  MSU made a shot with about 36 seconds left, then it took Illinois like 4 seconds to gather the ball for an in bounds, then the did a roll the ball throw in, and by the time he actually picked up the ball, it was under 30, and shot clock off.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on January 22, 2018, 10:20:30 PM
well ELA ... at half your prediction is holding, they are actually shooting better, but with more turnovers than predicted
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 22, 2018, 10:27:19 PM
FWIW:  On the Ohio State boards, a LOT of tOSU fans get salty about the fact that it has been nearly 40 years since our coach has won COTY in spite of the fact that our team has been clearly the best in the league over that stretch.  This complaint makes some intuitive sense.  If Ohio State has had the best program over the past 40 years then it stands to reason that our program has had the best coach at least a few times in that span.  
I've always responded by explaining that our coach never wins COTY in football because the award is really the "Coach of the team that most exceeded expectations" award and expectations are so high for tOSU football that it is essentially impossible for our coach to win that award.  That doesn't satisfy everyone, but I think most over there accept it.  
I can tell you that if Painter wins COTY there will be a slew of infuriated Ohio State fans who will point out that our football coach never wins COTY due to high expectations and the same should apply in Basketball.  
I don't care too much about the award per-se, but I do care about the principle.  In football the Ohio State coach has not won COTY due to high expectations and the same should apply in BB.  Barring a stupendous collapse the B1G COTY should be Holtmann.
So this was interesting actually. I built a big post looking at every year for OSU, if they had COY-worthy seasons, why they didn't win. 
And the end result was kinda weird. I honestly don't know if an OSU fan would argue in favor of their coach from 1980 to 2001. Maybe they'd want the award after what seems like an unsatisfying year. I dunno. In the Tress era, there's about four years where it could've been warranted, each knocked out by a narrative that ranged from much better to mildly better. Urbs had three, though 2014 has some cloudiness to it because of timing. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 22, 2018, 10:33:19 PM
When/if Underwood fills this roster, Illinois' is going to be a royal pain in the ass to play.  They already are not your typical last place team.
It seems like that physical Huggins/Frank Martin-type team. Just get in your grill, bump, rely on defense. 
What's interesting was his SFA teams and OkSU team were really good shooting teams. Less hard to watch than some other teams in that coaching tree. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 10:53:42 PM
I think Bridges took it personally that Smith changed his mind and went to Illinois.  Every time he gets him one on one, he is just taking it to him.  Smith will be good, but he's forced to play more minutes as a true freshman than he should.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 11:03:27 PM
Jaren Jackson is the second most talented player in MSU history
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 11:13:44 PM
Whoever made these schedules should be fired.

I knew at the start of the year this would hurt continuity and confidence.

It's great for the really good, experienced teams, but horrible for young teams.
Everyone has it at some point, it is what it is.  Maryland now gets 6 days off before playing MSU travelling on 1 day rest.  MSU just had a week off, and are now playing 4 games in 9 days.  It is what it is.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 23, 2018, 03:06:36 AM
Everyone has it at some point, it is what it is.  Maryland now gets 6 days off before playing MSU travelling on 1 day rest.  MSU just had a week off, and are now playing 4 games in 9 days.  It is what it is.
I'm talking about the home, away, home, away crap. 
MSU is an experienced team with confidence. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 23, 2018, 06:44:57 AM
This past Friday against Illinois was UW's first home game in 17 days. Back on the road tonight for Iowa and then on Friday at Michigan State.

I too just saw on Land of Ten that Trice was held out of practice and will not travel with the team today. I'm thinking if he can't go by the time UW starts playing home games again, give him a red shirt and put him on the shelf.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 23, 2018, 06:55:27 AM
Bucks with another bad night shooting from three.  Only 2 for 14.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 23, 2018, 07:14:31 AM
On this actual topic, for a second, it sounded as if D'Mitrik Trice might return to the court soon. It now appears that's not the case.

And as such, UW's mess of a year will go on. The Badgers long had a rep as developers, turning fine players into good ones, or at least system ones. At this point, UW has five scholarship juniors. Only one is better than an inconsistent role player. One is an inconsistent role player, the other three are not in the lineup. There are no scholarship seniors. Hope the six underclassmen can take some kind of jump.

:91:
The 2015 class is, overall, a major bust. Two of them will possibly not be back for their senior seasons. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 23, 2018, 07:59:22 AM
I'm talking about the home, away, home, away crap.
MSU is an experienced team with confidence.
I actually think this year has been the exact opposite.  Generally there is far more H-A-H-A scheduling.  This year seems like everyone is playing all of their home games in the front half or back half of their schedule.
MSU starts 4 sophomores and a freshman, so I guess that is experienced?
People are blaming the early BTT.  While that was a horrible idea, it is a separate horrible idea.  They played the two December games which negated shortening the conference schedule by a week.  The reason for all of this is the new FOX basketball deal.  Prior to this year the weekday games were always Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, never Friday or Monday.  Now, by adding those days in, it seems like they feel ok scheduling teams for three games in a week.  It's like an NBA schedule.  Problem is in the NBA, that's your job, so you can have home stands and road trips.  Can't schedule college kids on a bunch of road games in a row, with the conference spreading from New Jersey to Nebraska.  Maybe the old ACC did it, when all the teams were basically between Virginia and North Carolina and even on the road swings you could return home.  The Big Ten has never really done that because it's been more geographically spread out, but with the expansion extending that footprint, it's basically impossible.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 23, 2018, 08:02:30 AM
Also, an SVP Bad Beats submission.  Illinois intentionally fouled MSU when they were down 11 with 9 seconds left, Illini were +11.5.  MSU made both FTs to cover.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 23, 2018, 10:20:45 AM
Ouch!
Also, not exactly correct. While people like to lambast Painter for never getting past the Sweet 16, very few of his teams were truly expected to. Even the best team he's ever had prior to this year, the year when Hummel/Johnson/Moore were juniors and Kramer was a senior, the ACL tear Hummel had derailed the season.
Every year Purdue has made the sweet 16, they faced the 1 seed in that game. They never were the ones to get lucky enough to have the 8/9 winner knock off the 1. Up until last year, the other 1 seeds they faced were UConn (made it to the Final Four) and Duke (won the whole damn thing).
Last year, Purdue had a good team, but was still only a 4 seed. They faced Kansas in the Sweet 16, held the lead for much of the first half, and the game was within 2 points about 5 minutes into the 2nd half. And then Kansas just went crazy and couldn't miss.
And that team last year had a problem. They just weren't athletic enough. Swanigan was a beast, but he can't guard an athletic 4. Haas is a human mountain, but can't guard away from the basket. Carsen Edwards was athletic, but he was still a freshman playing too fast for himself.
This year's different. Carsen is letting the game flow to him but still can turn up the pace on command. Haarms is the athletic, tall stretch big that can help against more athletic 4's or 5's that give Haas trouble. Eastern is a frosh point guard who can play enough minutes and is a big, 6'6" guy who is athletic enough to give opponents fits when he defends. And that's who you have supporting the cast of 4 seniors who have all basically started together since their freshman years and know the game inside and out.
I'm not sure how Purdue is going to finish the season. But I honestly believe that this is Matt Painter's best team -- even better than the Hummel/Johnson/Moore/Kramer year before Hummel's injury. This team lost the Big Ten Player of the Year... And got better.
Something about tourney coaching experience.  Of the past 34 National Champions, only 3 were coached by a guy who had never coached past the Sweet 16, and all were in cases where they sort of took over a team, rather than trying to do it with their own team for the first time.  You have Steve Fisher in '89 taking over right before the tourney; Tubby Smith basically being handed a championship team by Rick Pitino in '98 when he left for the NBA; and Kevin Ollie taking over for Calhoun for the '14 UConn champs.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 23, 2018, 10:40:25 AM
Yeah, he'd be a bad fit for a team like MSU that is NC or bust. 

Not so much for a team like Purdue, who has two Final Four appearances in their history, most recently in 1980. 

3 Sweet 16 appearances for a team that hadn't been there since 2000 is pretty darn good. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 23, 2018, 10:41:02 AM
4 sophomores and a freshman sounds better than 2 sophomores and 3 freshmen. 

If Bender and Jackson were playing, we'd probably win vs Michigan and Indiana, both away games. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 23, 2018, 11:06:14 AM
4 sophomores and a freshman sounds better than 2 sophomores and 3 freshmen.

If Bender and Jackson were playing, we'd probably win vs Michigan and Indiana, both away games.
I didn't say they were the LEAST experienced team.  I just wouldn't call that experienced for anyone but Kentucky or Duke who plan on running out like 3-4 freshmen starters every year.
Purdue is starting 4 seniors.  Ohio State is starting 2 seniors and 2 juniors.  There might be a reason they are the top two teams.  A whole lot of experience on the court in West Lafayette and Columbus.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 23, 2018, 12:13:46 PM
I didn't say they were the LEAST experienced team.  I just wouldn't call that experienced for anyone but Kentucky or Duke who plan on running out like 3-4 freshmen starters every year.
Purdue is starting 4 seniors.  Ohio State is starting 2 seniors and 2 juniors.  There might be a reason they are the top two teams.  A whole lot of experience on the court in West Lafayette and Columbus.
For fun: by the KenPom experience thing
Purdue 57th
OSU 156th
MSU 277th
Maryland 318th
... Wisconsin 328th 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 23, 2018, 12:31:01 PM
For fun: by the KenPom experience thing
Purdue 57th
OSU 156th
MSU 277th
Maryland 318th
... Wisconsin 328th
What do make of my thought that Van Vliet and Thomas, and possibly Illikainin, are going to be gone after this season?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 23, 2018, 12:50:55 PM
For fun: by the KenPom experience thing
Purdue 57th
OSU 156th
MSU 277th
Maryland 318th
... Wisconsin 328th
MSU's experience is packed with talent, together, cohesive. 
I'm sure you'll see a switch in standings next year in a few cases. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on January 23, 2018, 01:58:07 PM
UNL needs another win over a ranked team to be in the bubble conversation, imo.    Close calls vs KU, Creighton and OSU won't cut it. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 23, 2018, 02:03:34 PM
BracketMatrix, which is a composite of several mock brackets has Nebraska as the 14th team out as of Monday.  So yes, work to be done.

Nebraska is in a tough spot.  They had (as medina's numbers point out) easily the easiest Big Ten schedule.  They only had to play MSU, Purdue, OSU and UM once each.  Problem is they only went 1-3 through that.  So they could wind up with a pretty good Big Ten record, but they won't face another ranked team til NYC.  To make matters worse, the 5th best Big Ten team, Maryland, they also only play once.  So the Big Ten schedule makers only gave them 5 games against potential tourney teams.  Also kind of means they almost have to go like 13-5 in Big Ten play to even get in the conversation.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on January 23, 2018, 02:20:51 PM
ELA.. agree.   I know they played a pretty good non conference schedule, but I think this team is NIT bound.   They are athletic, it has been nice to see a UNL basketball team compete.... but, they came together a little too late.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 23, 2018, 02:42:17 PM
had the Jayhawks and failed to close at the buzzer
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 23, 2018, 03:47:39 PM
I can tell you that if Painter wins COTY there will be a slew of infuriated Ohio State fans who will point out that our football coach never wins COTY due to high expectations and the same should apply in Basketball.  
To some degree, I will agree, hence why I asked just how far Painter has to exceed Holtmann's results in order to get COTY.
That said, if he is the first B1G coach to go undefeated in conference play in 42 years, and first ever to go 18-0 [as earlier schedules had fewer games], I'd say that's still exceeding expectations. 
Undefeated in football is a much lower bar to clear than it is in basketball. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 23, 2018, 03:47:39 PM
The Athletic put together a chart of how the Big Ten handled rest days in their scheduling.  Every team plays at least once on only one day rest.  The only teams that are NOT forced to do so multiple times are Purdue and Wisconsin.  On the other end of that, Indiana, Minnesota, Nebraska and Illinois all have to do so four times.

Sorting the schedule by number of 1 day rest games, then 2 day rest games, etc... you get the following as far as most grueling to grueling schedule simply in terms of short turnaround games...

1. Minnesota
2. Nebraska
3. Indiana
4. Illinois
5. Ohio State
6. Maryland
7. Rutgers
8. Michigan State
9. Northwestern
10. Michigan
11. Iowa
12. Penn State
13. Wisconsin
14. Purdue

So if you are looking for more reason it's looking tough for anyone to unseat Purdue at the top, there it is.

Kind of various ways to look at it.  Yes, Purdue and Wisconsin have the fewest games played on 1 days rest (1), and Indiana, Minnesota, Nebraska and Illinois have the most (4).  But it's Iowa and Penn State that have the fewest played on 1 or 2 days rest (8), and Ohio State that has the most (12).  It evens out at 3 or fewer with every team having either 13 or 14.  Then, only Minnesota has multiple breaks of 5+ days.  And Minnesota and Wisconsin are the only schools that get a full week off at any point.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 23, 2018, 04:44:42 PM
Something about tourney coaching experience.  Of the past 34 National Champions, only 3 were coached by a guy who had never coached past the Sweet 16, and all were in cases where they sort of took over a team, rather than trying to do it with their own team for the first time.  You have Steve Fisher in '89 taking over right before the tourney; Tubby Smith basically being handed a championship team by Rick Pitino in '98 when he left for the NBA; and Kevin Ollie taking over for Calhoun for the '14 UConn champs.
I dunno. "Only 3 national championships for coaches that didn't previously make it past the Sweet 16" sounds like the same sort of backwards analysis as "Well this coach doesn't do well because he's not good at beating ranked teams on the road". 
I don't know enough to quantify it, but it just sounds wrong.
You know why most coaches haven't made it past the Sweet 16? Because they're not coaching teams with enough talent to do so. Teams with enough talent to regularly make the EE, FF, and championship game are occasionally going to win it. Teams without enough talent to do so might make a Cinderella run past the Sweet 16, but then they'll hit a team with a LOT more talent in the next three rounds and falter.
I think the only previous Purdue team in Painter's tenure that had a legitimate shot at a National Championship was that Hummel/Johnson/Moore team with Kramer. That team was on fire, and had climbed to #3 in the nation when Hummel tore his ACL. The team without him gritted their way into the Sweet 16, but they weren't the same without Hummel. The next year might have been it again, since Hummer/Johnson/Moore were all seniors, but then Hummel tore his ACL again during the first practice of the next season. That team likewise made it to the Sweet 16, but they were only 14-4 in conference and ranked #13. That probably should have been an EE team, though, but VCU was on a tear and knocked us out. 
Purdue teams have never been ranked in the top 10 come tournament time. The best seed Purdue has ever had under Painter has been a 3, and that was the 2011-12 team. 
Expectations are that 1- and 2-seed teams "should" make it past the Sweet 16. Expectations are that teams ranked in the top 8 of the polls "should" make it past the Sweet 16. Every team Purdue has taken to the Sweet 16 has been flawed, which is why they haven't been a 1- or 2-seed and haven't been ranked in the top 10. As a Purdue fan, I sincerely wish Painter had overachieved and taken a 3- or 4-seed to the EE in at least one of those years, but it's not like he had the level of talent as a team where it was expected to happen. 
This year is Painter's best team. It's more complete and deeper than even the pre-injury 2010-11 team. This team doesn't appear to be flawed in any particular way I can identify. Will Purdue win it all? Probably not. Only 1 team gets to do that, and a lot of factors [including luck] come into play. But it's unfair to throw out a stat like that without realizing that those sort of stats have context. The context has changed for this Purdue team, because it's a better team than he's ever had.
Your other examples of the three coaches who *had* done it prove my point. Those coaches took over teams that had the talent to be there, so the past experience of their wins wasn't "theirs". So instead of being coaches of strong but not elite teams who rarely had the talent to go beyond, they inherited the talent. How have those coaches done when they didn't have the same level of talent? Probably not as well.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 23, 2018, 06:06:55 PM
I think you're reading it like Painter is a bad coach who will never get there.  That's not the point.  The point is that navigating 6 games through the NCAA tournament is a difficult feat, and that maybe there is something to getting almost all the way there where you learn what needs to be tweaked.  That it would be the first time in over three decades a coach like Painter won a national title, having never gotten even halfway there before despite being in place for a while.  That maybe he needs to take a Final Four heartbreak before he wins one.

A lot of great coaches have won their first (and/or only) national titles over the past 34 years...John Thompson, Rollie Massimino, Denny Crum, Larry Brown, Tark, Coach K, Nolan Richardson, Rick Pitino, Lute Olsen, Jim Calhoun, Tom Izzo, Gary Williams, Jim Boeheim, Roy Williams, Billy Donovan, Bill Self, John Calipari, Jay Wright.

Not one of them did it the first time they made it past the Sweet 16.

Rollie, Calhoun and Self were the only three that did it on their first trip to the final weekend.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 23, 2018, 06:24:24 PM
To some degree, I will agree, hence why I asked just how far Painter has to exceed Holtmann's results in order to get COTY.
That said, if he is the first B1G coach to go undefeated in conference play in 42 years, and first ever to go 18-0 [as earlier schedules had fewer games], I'd say that's still exceeding expectations.
Undefeated in football is a much lower bar to clear than it is in basketball.
I get that and I think we are on the same page. What do you feel the expectation for Purdue and Ohio State (in # of wins)?
My guess at the answers to that is around 13-14 for PU and around 5-6 for Ohio State.
That means that Ohio State is already 3-4 games over expectations and Purdue can do no better than 4-5 games over expectations. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 23, 2018, 08:00:01 PM
If Wisconsin doesn't wake up, they aren't even going to make the NIT.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 23, 2018, 08:26:04 PM
good game in Norman, OK
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 23, 2018, 09:56:12 PM
I think you're reading it like Painter is a bad coach who will never get there.  That's not the point.  The point is that navigating 6 games through the NCAA tournament is a difficult feat, and that maybe there is something to getting almost all the way there where you learn what needs to be tweaked.  That it would be the first time in over three decades a coach like Painter won a national title, having never gotten even halfway there before despite being in place for a while.  That maybe he needs to take a Final Four heartbreak before he wins one.

A lot of great coaches have won their first (and/or only) national titles over the past 34 years...John Thompson, Rollie Massimino, Denny Crum, Larry Brown, Tark, Coach K, Nolan Richardson, Rick Pitino, Lute Olsen, Jim Calhoun, Tom Izzo, Gary Williams, Jim Boeheim, Roy Williams, Billy Donovan, Bill Self, John Calipari, Jay Wright.

Not one of them did it the first time they made it past the Sweet 16.

Rollie, Calhoun and Self were the only three that did it on their first trip to the final weekend.
True, but Fisher, Smith, and Ollie did it. They were dropped into talented teams and clearly handled their business.
I'm not expecting Painter to win the National Championship this year. I think he's an excellent coach, and this is an excellent team, but to win the whole thing takes more than that. It takes luck and great coaching and getting hot at the right time. 
If you're a betting man, Purdue right now is 16:1 to win the whole thing according to Vegas Insider (http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-basketball/odds/futures/). So nobody else is saying Painter's going to win it.
This year I think Purdue fan expectations are that [barring injury or other major calamity] Painter damn well better exceed a Sweet 16. Not to do so will REALLY bother Purdue fans. 
No Purdue fan is expecting a National Championship. Purdue fans will be happy with an Elite Eight, and ELATED with a Final Four. You get beyond that and we're playing with house money. Get there and hope things fall our way. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 23, 2018, 10:03:41 PM
I get that and I think we are on the same page. What do you feel the expectation for Purdue and Ohio State (in # of wins)?
My guess at the answers to that is around 13-14 for PU and around 5-6 for Ohio State.
That means that Ohio State is already 3-4 games over expectations and Purdue can do no better than 4-5 games over expectations.
No argument there. I think 14-4 was a reasonable preseason Purdue expectation. I didn't follow preseason OSU expectations, but with how they struggled OOC, I definitely think 5-6 wins probably wasn't all that far off. Especially when people thought the conference would be a little tougher.
So yes, Holtmann will by FAR exceed expectations more than Painter possibly could if you're just counting "number of wins above expectation". But something like 18-0 is a statement in a different way. Nobody has done it in 42 years. That might get some attention.
Still, I think Holtmann is the odds-on favorite, and should be. It'll take something extraordinary at this point for him not to win it. All we're debating is what constitutes "extraordinary enough".  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ohio1317 on January 23, 2018, 11:57:50 PM
If Purdue finishes 18-0, I'm OK with coach of the year going there.  I think it's an argument, but don't think that's the bad choice and would probably go with Painter there too.  Lose 1 or 2 though and I think Holtman gets it in anything except a total collapse.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 24, 2018, 07:47:07 AM
If Wisconsin doesn't wake up, they aren't even going to make the NIT.
They are awake. They just aren't good.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 08:28:30 AM
No argument there. I think 14-4 was a reasonable preseason Purdue expectation. I didn't follow preseason OSU expectations, but with how they struggled OOC, I definitely think 5-6 wins probably wasn't all that far off. Especially when people thought the conference would be a little tougher.
So yes, Holtmann will by FAR exceed expectations more than Painter possibly could if you're just counting "number of wins above expectation". But something like 18-0 is a statement in a different way. Nobody has done it in 42 years. That might get some attention.
Still, I think Holtmann is the odds-on favorite, and should be. It'll take something extraordinary at this point for him not to win it. All we're debating is what constitutes "extraordinary enough".  
Maybe instead of looking only at # of wins above expectation we should instead or also consider % of expected losses converted to wins.  
My thinking here is that it is harder and more impressive to get four wins more than expected if your expectation is 10-8 than it is if your expectation is 2-16.  That tends to be true in most things.  Example:  Think about drag racing.  If the car that you drive to work every day can do a 1/4 mile in 19 seconds I could probably trim two seconds off of that for >$1,000 in a day or two.  On the other hand, if you have a 12 second car and you want to make it into a 10 second car you are probably going to have to write some REALLY big checks.  
So back to BB:  If we just assume (for purposes of this discussion) that Purdue was expected to win 14 and Ohio State was expected to win six then if it is measured simply in "wins over expectation" then Painter has almost no chance.  The best he can do is four games over expectation and Holtmann is already three games over expectation.  However, if we look at it as % of expected losses converted to wins then we get:
For Ohio State:
Wins%
925.00%
1033.33%
1141.67%
1250.00%
1358.33%
1466.67%
1575.00%
1683.33%
1791.67%
18100.00%
For Purdue:
Wins%
140.00%
1525.00%
1650.00%
1775.00%
18100.00%
So based on that:

FWIW:  I do not think this is it exactly.  I think it is more of a balance between the two.  Holtmann is almost certainly going to have more "wins over expectation" than Painter because he is already at three and Painter can only possibly get to four.  On the other hand, if Purdue finishes with 17 or more wins then there is a pretty good chance that Painter will finish with a higher percentage of expected losses converted to wins.  My rough thinking is that for Painter to win the award he has to be substantially better than Holtmann in percentage of losses converted in order to overcome the fact that he will be substantially behind in wins over expectation.  

I also still think that you have a point on the undefeated thing.  Going undefeated is a big deal and in this race it is something of a trump card.  As I said before, I think that the four game difference between 18-0 and 14-4 is MUCH bigger than the four game difference between 17-1 and 13-5.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 09:20:45 AM
Updated projections:

For the time being the Tiers are (with upset +/-):
The upsets so far have been:
DateWon@/vLost
4-DecUW@PSU
2-JanUNL@NU
6-JanIU@MN
11-JanIA@ILL
13-JanM@MSU
15-JanMN@PSU
20-JantOSUMSG*MN
23-JanNU@MN
* Note that tOSU's win over MN shows up as an upset here because the game it replaced was a MN home game but it shouldn't be viewed as a credit to tOSU or a demerit to MN because it was actually played at a neutral location.  

Here are the updated projections:
TeamnoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoAwaynoHomenoHomenoHomenoHomeRR-WRR-Lmiss-Wmiss-LProj-WProj-LRR%Proj%Diff+Var-VarVarConf-WConf-LOOC-WOOC-LProjT-WProjT-L
PurdueUNLNUtOSUPSUILLIUIOWAMSU24271171    0.923     0.944     0.021 0 0 0       17         1 112        28           3
MSUMUNLPSUPUIOWAMNNUtOSU24271171    0.923     0.944     0.021 0 (1)(1)      16         2 121        28           3
tOSUMSUUMDUNLILLUWNUMNPU20662144    0.769     0.778     0.009 1 0 1       15         3 94        24           7
MILLIUMNRUMSUUNLPSUUW14125399    0.538     0.500   (0.038)1 0 1       10         8 112        21         10
PSUMMNRUUWILLIUMSUPU141235117    0.538     0.611     0.073 0 (2)(2)        9         9 103        19         12
UMDIOWAMNRUUWILLIUUNLtOSU141262810    0.538     0.444   (0.094)0 0 0         8       10 112        19         12
MinnyILLMSUtOSURUUMDMPSUUW141262810    0.538     0.444   (0.094)1 (3)(2)        6       12 112        17         14
UNLIUIOWAUMDMMSUNUtOSUPU10161799    0.385     0.500     0.115 1 0 1       10         8 94        19         12
UWIUMMNtOSUIOWAUMDPSURU101644612    0.385     0.333   (0.051)1 0 1         7       11 76        14         17
IUUMDNUPSUPUMUNLRUUW101644612    0.385     0.333   (0.051)1 0 1         7       11 75        14         16
NUILLMSUUNLtOSUIUIOWAPURU101635711    0.385     0.389     0.004 1 (1)0         7       11 94        16         15
RUIUIOWANUUWUMDMMNPSU62008612    0.231     0.333     0.103 0 0 0         6       12 103        16         15
ILLIOWAUMDPSUPUMMNNUtOSU62017513    0.231     0.278     0.047 0 (1)(1)        4       14 103        14         17
IowaMSUNUPUUWILUMDUNLRU62035315    0.231     0.167   (0.064)1 0 1         4       14 94        13         18




Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 09:32:40 AM
Based on the above projections the BTT seeds would be:
The match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2018, 09:38:02 AM

OSU-Michigan rubber match in the Big Ten Ccg? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 10:13:00 AM
In the worldwide leader's latest bracketology we are down to a 4-bid league.  Maryland has dropped from last four in to first four out.  We have a one seed (PU), a two seed (MSU), a three seed (tOSU), and an eight seed (M).  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 24, 2018, 10:23:00 AM
In the worldwide leader's latest bracketology we are down to a 4-bid league.  Maryland has dropped from last four in to first four out.  We have a one seed (PU), a two seed (MSU), a three seed (tOSU), and an eight seed (M).  
And he has MSU and OSU higher than most.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 10:35:50 AM
Looking at the likely Bubble-teams:
Maryland:
The Terrapins were in most brackets until recently.  Now they are below .500 in the league and they have lost three of their last four along with four of their last six.  IMHO, their next two games are key.  They already lost at MSU and at home to PU and their next two games are the inverse.  They host MSU on Sunday then travel to PU next Wednesday.  We project that they will lose both and ultimately finish 8-10. 

After these two games their other remaining projected losses are @PSU, @UNL, and @NU.  IMHO, they need to win one of the next two because even if they won the other three, that would only get them to 11-7 and I do not think that is enough in this year's B1G.  

Nebraska:
It has been discussed, but their schedule is problematic.  We all know that the B1G is down this year but on top of that the Cornhuskers only play the best five teams once each.  They are almost done with those games at 1-3 with a home win over Michigan and road losses to PU, MSU, and tOSU.  Their only remaining game against a potential tournament team before the BTT at MSG in NYC is a home game against Maryland in mid-February.  

Nebraska is currently 5-4 and we project them to go 5-4 in the second half of their B1G schedule and finish 10-8.  That is not going to be enough.  Their four projected losses are:
To be a serious bubble team I think the Cornhuskers are going to have to win at least two of those and the easiest ones are probably the first (tonight against RU) and last (at Illinois on 2/18).  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 24, 2018, 11:38:06 AM
I think their Sunday home game against MSU is their must win.  It's a home game, on a long 6 day rest, playing an MSU team that already struggles on the road, travelling in on 1 day rest.  If they are going to pull a big win, that is about as perfect a setup as you can ask for.  It also depends on where the fans are at by that point.  When MSU went in there a couple years ago it was an absolute hive.  Last year, not so much.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2018, 11:59:43 AM
.

Xavier, Ohio State, Cincinnati and Dayton in all-Ohio college hoops event?
.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/xavier/2017/10/26/xavier-ohio-state-uc-and-dayton-all-ohio-college-hoops-event-chris-mack-listening/805013001/

You can count Xavier head coach Chris Mack as an intrigued and willing party on the subject of getting Ohio's premier men's basketball programs together for a non-conference tournament or event. 
Ohio State head coach Chris Holtmann said several times in recent days he'd like to see the major Ohio men's programs – OSU, Xavier, Dayton and the University of Cincinnati – collaborate on a project similar to the Crossroads Classic in Indiana (http://www.bankerslifefieldhouse.com/event/2017-12-16-crossroads-classic-2017/).
Asked Thursday by The Enquirer about the prospect of such a collaboration, Mack said he told Holtmann in July that Xavier would be interested. 
.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 12:05:54 PM
Brutus,
You do realize that story is from October, right?  As a Buckeye fan, I think it would not be good for Ohio State.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2018, 12:15:33 PM
Just heard about it for the first time, and googled up an article. 

Personally I would love it. But I'm also the only guy in Ohio that likes it when OSU plays the other Ohio FB teams. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 12:31:55 PM
I think their Sunday home game against MSU is their must win.  It's a home game, on a long 6 day rest, playing an MSU team that already struggles on the road, travelling in on 1 day rest.  If they are going to pull a big win, that is about as perfect a setup as you can ask for.  It also depends on where the fans are at by that point.  When MSU went in there a couple years ago it was an absolute hive.  Last year, not so much.
I agree.  I said in my post that I thought the Terrapins had to win one of the next two and your elaboration of the circumstances of the MSU game makes clear that it almost has to be that one.  Stranger things have happened but Maryland losing at home on a long rest to an MSU team on a short rest then turning around and winning in West Lafayette would be shocking.  
If Maryland loses their next two they will drop to 4-7.  At that point the best case scenario would be to get to the BTT at MSG in NYC at 11-7 and they would still have a significant amount of work to do to get to the NCAA.  If the Terrapins lose on Sunday they are in big trouble.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 24, 2018, 12:34:13 PM
Looking at the likely Bubble-teams:


  • @RU, tonight
  • @UW, 1/29
  • @MN, 2/6
  • @ILL, 2/18
To be a serious bubble team I think the Cornhuskers are going to have to win at least two of those and the easiest ones are probably the first (tonight against RU) and last (at Illinois on 2/18).  
if the Huskers can't beat Rutgers there's no reason to worry about being on the bubble.  The way the Badgers are playing that should also be a win if a team is worthy of the tournament.
I assume the Huskers will fold down the stretch, but I'd love to be surprised and see Miles keep his job and eventually elevate the program
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PortlandSpartan on January 24, 2018, 02:17:32 PM
I think their Sunday home game against MSU is their must win.  It's a home game, on a long 6 day rest, playing an MSU team that already struggles on the road, travelling in on 1 day rest.  If they are going to pull a big win, that is about as perfect a setup as you can ask for.  It also depends on where the fans are at by that point.  When MSU went in there a couple years ago it was an absolute hive.  Last year, not so much.
Of course also depends heavily on whether the refs want MSU to win or not
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 06:50:07 PM
In talking about potential bubble teams I left out Indiana but is there a potential case to be made for the Hoosiers?  

The good news is that they are 5-3 in the league and 12-8 overall.  More good news is that their SoS is pretty good (#22 per BPI).  The bad news is that they had two just dreadful losses OOC.  They lost badly to both Indiana State and Fort Wayne.  Ouch!  

The Hoosiers are at Illinois tonight.  They HAVE to win that.  Then they have this stretch:
If they beat Illinois and win at least one of the three after that they'll be 7-5/14-10 with a quality win.  They wouldn't have much room for error but after that their schedule is manageable:
It isn't impossible to imagine them going 5-1 through that to finish 12-6/19-11.  I don't think that would get them in, but it would at least get them into the bubble discussion.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 06:52:49 PM
if the Huskers can't beat Rutgers there's no reason to worry about being on the bubble.  
I think that is true for both games tonight.  Both Nebraska and Indiana are running out of time.  In theory either of them could lose tonight and make up for it later but in reality it seems pretty unlikely that either of them can afford a loss to RU/IL tonight.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 24, 2018, 09:42:16 PM
Of course also depends heavily on whether the refs want MSU to win or not
Shouldn't be a problem this time around.
No need to call ticky tack fouls on Bruno when he won't likely be playing due to a sprained ankle.
Takes away the tough task of making it LOOK harmless.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on January 24, 2018, 11:04:24 PM
The 2nd half of this IU / ILL game is tough to watch ... Illinois can't run a half court offense and IU keeps turning it over.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on January 24, 2018, 11:29:10 PM
We won a game!  Although they tried really hard to give it away at the end there.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 24, 2018, 11:33:44 PM
In talking about potential bubble teams I left out Indiana but is there a potential case to be made for the Hoosiers?  

The good news is that they are 5-3 in the league and 12-8 overall.  More good news is that their SoS is pretty good (#22 per BPI).  The bad news is that they had two just dreadful losses OOC.  They lost badly to both Indiana State and Fort Wayne.  Ouch!  

The Hoosiers are at Illinois tonight.  They HAVE to win that.  Then they have this stretch:
  • vs Purdue Sunday
  • at Ohio State Tuesday
  • vs Michigan State Saturday
If they beat Illinois and win at least one of the three after that they'll be 7-5/14-10 with a quality win.  They wouldn't have much room for error but after that their schedule is manageable:
  • at Rutgers
  • vs Minnesota
  • vs Illinois
  • at Iowa
  • at Nebraska
  • vs Ohio State
It isn't impossible to imagine them going 5-1 through that to finish 12-6/19-11.  I don't think that would get them in, but it would at least get them into the bubble discussion.  
Nevermind. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on January 24, 2018, 11:34:48 PM
LOL medina ... good post
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 25, 2018, 11:08:30 AM
Nebraska's win at Rutgers was an upset per our tiers.  Nebraska is now projected to finish alone in 4th instead of tied with Michigan for 4th/5th but it does not change the projected BTT seeds because Nebraska won that tie anyway.  

On the other end Rutgers moves from tied for 11th/12th with Minnesota to alone in 12th.  Again, it has no impact on BTT seed projections because Rutgers was projected to lose the tie with Minnesota.  

The question is, should Nebraska be promoted to tier-3 from tier-4?  That would make a difference in home games against tier-2 teams and road games against tier-5 teams.  There are four such games:
Nebraska's other upset win was at Northwestern so that will still be an upset either way.  I'm going to go ahead and promote Nebraska.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 25, 2018, 11:20:29 AM
New tiers (with +/- for upsets):
Upsets so far have been:
DateWon@/vLost
4-DecUW@PSU
2-JanUNL@NU
6-JanIU@MN
11-JanIA@ILL
13-JanM@MSU
15-JanMN@PSU
20-JantOSUMSG*MN
23-JanNU@MN
*Note that Ohio State's win over Minnesota is treated as an upset because it replaced a Minnesota home game, but should not be held against Minnesota or credited to Ohio State because the game was actually played on a neutral floor.  

Projected final standings/BTT seeds:
The match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 25, 2018, 02:04:19 PM
Will there be a fifth B1G team in the NCAA this year?  

It looks pretty shaky.  PU, MSU, and tOSU are all in barring epic collapses.  Michigan looks pretty good for a bid.  After that it gets questionable:

The next best teams in the B1G standings are UNL and IU with four losses each but the Hoosiers just gave Illinois their first B1G win of the year and also have a couple of really bad OOC losses so I think they need a miracle.  

Next are the five-loss teams:  Maryland, Northwestern, Wisconsin, and Penn State.  Maryland is probably the best of the bunch but their next two games are against MSU and Purdue and if they don't win at least one I think they are in trouble.  

All the rest of the league's teams have at least seven league losses and I'm not sure that 11-7 would be good enough so even if they miraculously won out they would still probably have work to do in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  

That brings me back to Nebraska:
They are currrently 6-4/15-8 with eight league games and the BTT to go.  All four league losses were on the road and three of them are not really damaging (@PU, @MSU, @tOSU).  The only questionable league loss is @PSU but that isn't terrible.  Their OOC losses are also pretty good being @St.John's, @Creighton, a neutral site loss to UCF, and a home loss to Kansas.  

We project them to go 6-2 in their last eight B1G games.  Here are those games roughly organized by what I think they are most likely to win to what I think they are least likely to win:
There isn't a game left where it looks like the Cornhuskers are hopeless.  I have Wisconsin has tougher than Minnesota because the Minnesota game is on nearly a week's rest while the Wisconsin game is on a short turn-around after the home game with Iowa.  

What do they need, and can they get there?  I'm thinking that 12-6 would get them to the bubble discussion but I'm not sure that it gets them in.  It would probably get them a 4-seed in the BTT and a likely game with Michigan on Friday.  That would probably be a must-win for the Cornhuskers mostly because they have a pretty weak B1G SoS and not a lot of quality wins.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 25, 2018, 02:29:09 PM
If they finish out 8-0, that puts them at 23-8, with some "meh" wins.  Nothing spectacular, but not bad.  Even if they dropped their first game in the BTT, as long as it was to a team like Michigan, then yeah, I think that would be good enough to get in.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 25, 2018, 03:05:10 PM
KBD might be out tonight with illness. Flu going around
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 25, 2018, 04:17:33 PM
I know Turgeon is a coach who can’t beat a good team, coaching in a conference that has a thumb on the scale against his team, but for all that, his team is really good on the fouls front. 

21st nationally in getting to the line, second in not fouling folks (and great on bother sides in conference play). Imagine if the refs weren’t against them. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 25, 2018, 04:55:59 PM
Lunardi now has Ohio State up to a 2-seed and playing opening round games in Pittsburgh.  

The B1G:
Maryland is among the "first four out".  No other B1G teams are mentioned.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: CWSooner on January 25, 2018, 07:37:22 PM
Will there be a fifth B1G team in the NCAA this year?  

It looks pretty shaky.  PU, MSU, and tOSU are all in barring epic collapses.  Michigan looks pretty good for a bid.  After that it gets questionable:

The next best teams in the B1G standings are UNL and IU with four losses each but the Hoosiers just gave Illinois their first B1G win of the year and also have a couple of really bad OOC losses so I think they need a miracle.  

Next are the five-loss teams:  Maryland, Northwestern, Wisconsin, and Penn State.  Maryland is probably the best of the bunch but their next two games are against MSU and Purdue and if they don't win at least one I think they are in trouble.  

All the rest of the league's teams have at least seven league losses and I'm not sure that 11-7 would be good enough so even if they miraculously won out they would still probably have work to do in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  

That brings me back to Nebraska:
They are currrently 6-4/15-8 with eight league games and the BTT to go.  All four league losses were on the road and three of them are not really damaging (@PU, @MSU, @tOSU).  The only questionable league loss is @PSU but that isn't terrible.  Their OOC losses are also pretty good being @St.John's, @Creighton, a neutral site loss to UCF, and a home loss to Kansas.  

We project them to go 6-2 in their last eight B1G games.  Here are those games roughly organized by what I think they are most likely to win to what I think they are least likely to win:
  • vs Rutgers 2/10
  • vs Iowa 1/27
  • vs Indiana 2/20
  • vs Penn State 2/25
  • at Illinois 2/18
  • vs Maryland 2/13
  • at Minnesota 2/6
  • at Wisconsin 1/29
There isn't a game left where it looks like the Cornhuskers are hopeless.  I have Wisconsin has tougher than Minnesota because the Minnesota game is on nearly a week's rest while the Wisconsin game is on a short turn-around after the home game with Iowa.  

What do they need, and can they get there?  I'm thinking that 12-6 would get them to the bubble discussion but I'm not sure that it gets them in.  It would probably get them a 4-seed in the BTT and a likely game with Michigan on Friday.  That would probably be a must-win for the Cornhuskers mostly because they have a pretty weak B1G SoS and not a lot of quality wins.
Wow!  12-6 in conference games gets a B1G team to the NCAA bubble?
In Big 12 (-2) country, the pundits are saying that an 8-10 conference record might be enough to get a team in, and they are projecting 6 of our 10 teams to make the tournament.
Can that difference be due solely to OOC play?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 25, 2018, 07:58:09 PM
also due to the Big 12 having many teams ranked 

many in the top 10
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on January 25, 2018, 10:06:25 PM
Buckeyes go down in a valiant effort and crazy shot by Tony Carr
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 25, 2018, 10:08:44 PM
Well that was about as crazy an ending as you'll see
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 25, 2018, 10:33:38 PM
OSU remains neither undefeated in Big Ten play, nor tied for first place atop the Big Ten standings.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on January 26, 2018, 08:33:17 AM
I went to the OSU/PSU game. Carr outclassed OSU all of last night; PSU shot lights out (11-14 BtA) and earned the win. Valiant, flu laced, effort by Bates-Diop to score 9 in the last 2 minutes to make this game look overtime worthy. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 26, 2018, 08:46:06 AM
also due to the Big 12 having many teams ranked

many in the top 10
That 1 point loss to Kansas...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 26, 2018, 10:07:02 AM
Huskers gave that game away in the last 30 seconds  :91:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 26, 2018, 11:10:08 AM
Lunardi now has Ohio State up to a 2-seed and playing opening round games in Pittsburgh.  
Nevermind.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 26, 2018, 11:12:41 AM
Well that was about as crazy an ending as you'll see
And heartbreaking for Ohio State fans.  The Buckeyes fought their way back into a tie game with almost no time left and ballgame.  
Ohio State still projects as the 3-seed in the BTT.  Penn State's upset win moves them into a projected tie with Michigan for 4th/5th and the Nittany Lions would win that tie due to not playing in Ann Arbor this year.  Thus PSU would be the 5-seed and Michigan the 6-seed in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 11:14:25 AM
And heartbreaking for Ohio State fans.  The Buckeyes fought their way back into a tie game with almost no time left and ballgame.  
Ohio State still projects as the 3-seed in the BTT.  Penn State's upset win moves them into a projected tie with Michigan for 4th/5th and the Nittany Lions would win that tie due to not playing in Ann Arbor this year.  Thus PSU would be the 5-seed and Michigan the 6-seed in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  
I think the "we have no business winning this game...but holy crap, we might...never mind," is just about the worst.  I'd certainly rather get blown out, I might rather blow a lead.  But to reinvest in a game, you had already checked out of, just to lose I think might be the worst.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 26, 2018, 11:37:16 AM
The question going forward for both the Buckeyes and Nittany Lions is whether this is a blip, upsets happen, or if this is a sign of a change.  

For the Buckeyes:
As long as this is a blip, it probably doesn't change much.  I thought Lunardi's 2-seed projection was overly-generous anyway.  At this point I think the Buckeyes would have to win out (including winning the BTT at MSG in NYC) or awfully close to it (maybe lose at Purdue) to get a 2-seed.  As long as they don't suffer any more unexpected losses they should be somewhere around a 4/5 seed.  

If this is a sign of things to come, the Cinderella season could be in trouble.  The Buckeyes next host an Indiana team that can be either very good or very bad depending on which night you catch them.  Additionally, the Buckeyes still have road games that could go either way remaining against the Hoosiers and Nittany Lions.  The 9-0 start in the B1G could evaporate quickly down the stretch.  

For the Nittany Lions:
Unless this is a big sign of things to come this will not do anything for PSU's NCAA chances.  We project them to lose three more games:
Additionally, they have home games that could go either way remaining against Maryland, Ohio State, and Michigan.  It is going to take more than one upset to get the Nittany Lions onto the Bubble.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on January 26, 2018, 12:46:42 PM
Outside of a BIG tourney run where they upset a team or two, I don't see the Huskers making the NCAA tourney.... regardless of how many games they win the rest of the year.   Too many teams with better resumes that won't fall apart.   
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 26, 2018, 12:52:14 PM
the only chance the Huskers have is to win their home games starting with Iowa this Saturday evening, win one of 3 on the road.  6 of 8 down the stretch would almost certainly put them in 4th alone in the Big Ten, win the first round tourney game.

The B1G will get 4 teams, just because.  If Michigan falters down the stretch the Huskers could get in by default.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 26, 2018, 03:00:47 PM
the only chance the Huskers have is to win their home games starting with Iowa this Saturday evening, win one of 3 on the road.  6 of 8 down the stretch would almost certainly put them in 4th alone in the Big Ten, win the first round tourney game.

The B1G will get 4 teams, just because.  If Michigan falters down the stretch the Huskers could get in by default.
Ohio State isn't a lock yet either.  It isn't impossible to conjure up a scenario in which Nebraska gets the 3-seed with Ohio State and Michigan in 4th/5th.  In that case the 4/5 game on Friday of the BTT (assuming #5 beats the 12/13 winner on Thursday) might be for the B1G's final NCAA bid because it is hard to see the loser of that game getting in (depending on records of course).  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 26, 2018, 03:23:27 PM
final bid being for the 3rd team or the 4th?

I think the Big gets 4 unless Nebraska/Michigan collapse and no one else goes on a run
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 26, 2018, 03:55:20 PM
https://twitter.com/umhoops/status/956903265421217794

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Riffraft on January 26, 2018, 04:12:11 PM
The question going forward for both the Buckeyes and Nittany Lions is whether this is a blip, upsets happen, or if this is a sign of a change.  

For the Buckeyes:
As long as this is a blip, it probably doesn't change much.  I thought Lunardi's 2-seed projection was overly-generous anyway.  At this point I think the Buckeyes would have to win out (including winning the BTT at MSG in NYC) or awfully close to it (maybe lose at Purdue) to get a 2-seed.  As long as they don't suffer any more unexpected losses they should be somewhere around a 4/5 seed.  

If this is a sign of things to come, the Cinderella season could be in trouble.  The Buckeyes next host an Indiana team that can be either very good or very bad depending on which night you catch them.  Additionally, the Buckeyes still have road games that could go either way remaining against the Hoosiers and Nittany Lions.  The 9-0 start in the B1G could evaporate quickly down the stretch.  

For the Nittany Lions:
Unless this is a big sign of things to come this will not do anything for PSU's NCAA chances.  We project them to lose three more games:
  • @MSU (1/31)
  • @Pur (2/18)
  • @UNL (2/25)
Additionally, they have home games that could go either way remaining against Maryland, Ohio State, and Michigan.  It is going to take more than one upset to get the Nittany Lions onto the Bubble.  
at this point I would assume it is a blip. I was only about to watch the first ten minutes, but PSU couldn't miss from behind the arc. Teams just aren't going to hit at the high of a percentage, just one of those things that happens.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 26, 2018, 04:51:01 PM
final bid being for the 3rd team or the 4th?

I think the Big gets 4 unless Nebraska/Michigan collapse and no one else goes on a run
I assume 4th with (in this scenario) Nebraska being safely in as #3.  The top two seeds in the BTT will be locks.  There is almost no plausible scenario in which the B1G's 2-seed isn't a lock.  
The three seed is *probably* also a lock.  The only scenario I could see in which they are not is if 12-6 is good for the 3-seed but that would require a pretty stupendous collapse for the Buckeyes (3-6 finish) and neither Michigan nor Nebraska finishing very strong.  
The 4/5 are where it gets hairy and I could definitely see the 4/5 game on Friday in the BTT being effectively a play-in game.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 26, 2018, 04:54:51 PM
at this point I would assume it is a blip. I was only about to watch the first ten minutes, but PSU couldn't miss from behind the arc. Teams just aren't going to hit at the high of a percentage, just one of those things that happens.
I also would assume so until proven otherwise but I'll be keeping an eye on the two teams.  Ohio State's next two games are both at home against Indiana and Illinois.  They should win both.  If not, maybe the PSU loss was more than a blip.  
It is a bit harder to get a read out of Penn State's next two games.  Their next two are one of the easiest possible games in the B1G (vs Rutgers) and one of the toughest (@MSU) so they are extremely likely to go 1-1.  I think it is more of a question of degree.  If they struggle with Rutgers and get thoroughly dominated by MSU then it was a blip.  If they thoroughly dominate Rutgers and hang with MSU then maybe there is something there.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 26, 2018, 05:28:14 PM
Somewhat OT, mini scheduling rant:

I was looking at the schedule for this weekend and my team is one of five that do not play at all this weekend (Fri-Sun).  The Buckeyes, Wolverines, Gophers, Wildcats, and Illini are all idle until at least Monday.  

Why would the conference give teams byes on the weekends?  It simply HAS to be easier to sell tickets to games played on weekends than it is to games played during the week.  

As my screenname implies, I live in Medina.  If you are not familiar with it, Medina is a Cleveland/Akron suburb about two hours from Ohio State's campus.  This makes it very difficult for me to attend weekday evening basketball games.  Here are all of Ohio State's weekend league games this season:
IMHO, it would make a lot more sense to give teams a week off instead of a weekend off both for fans and for the alleged student athletes.  As a fan who lives two hours from campus there are only three weekend home games available for me to choose from to attend games.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 05:32:16 PM
Somewhat OT, mini scheduling rant:

I was looking at the schedule for this weekend and my team is one of five that do not play at all this weekend (Fri-Sun).  The Buckeyes, Wolverines, Gophers, Wildcats, and Illini are all idle until at least Monday.  

Why would the conference give teams byes on the weekends?  It simply HAS to be easier to sell tickets to games played on weekends than it is to games played during the week.  

As my screenname implies, I live in Medina.  If you are not familiar with it, Medina is a Cleveland/Akron suburb about two hours from Ohio State's campus.  This makes it very difficult for me to attend weekday evening basketball games.  Here are all of Ohio State's weekend league games this season:
  • @ Wisconsin, Sat Dec 2
  • vs Michigan State, Sun Jan 7
  • @ Rutgers, Sun, Jan 14
  • vs Minnesota, Sat, Jan 20 (in NYC at MSG)
  • vs Illinois, Sun, Feb 4
  • vs Iowa, Sat, Feb 10
  • @ Michigan, Sun, Feb 18
IMHO, it would make a lot more sense to give teams a week off instead of a weekend off both for fans and for the alleged student athletes.  As a fan who lives two hours from campus there are only three weekend home games available for me to choose from to attend games.  
But you get better ratings on weeknights.  They don't care about ticket holders anymore.  They aren't a conference, they are a conglomerate of teams to provide content for a TV network.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 26, 2018, 05:34:45 PM
But you get better ratings on weeknights.  They don't care about ticket holders anymore.  They aren't a conference, they are a conglomerate of teams to provide content for a TV network.
Sadly this is probably true.  However, I think it is short-sighted because fans in the seats are your best fans and the ones most likely to be watching when they aren't in the seats.  Oh well.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 26, 2018, 05:55:39 PM
Sadly this is probably true.  However, I think it is short-sighted because fans in the seats are your best fans and the ones most likely to be watching when they aren't in the seats.  Oh well.  
The $10 seats almost got me in the door last night.
I normally won't go unless I'm invited by someone with season tix because the walk up tickets are awful.
The one time I did that, they sold me a $25 dollar ticket in the upper bowl, with an obstructed view behind a giant slab of concrete.
I'd rather just watch the game on TV, frankly. And I don't even feel bad about it, because they are already getting a cut of my cable bill.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 09:19:00 PM
Wisconsin has looked totally different offensively the last 10 game minutes crossing over halftime.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 27, 2018, 09:29:38 AM
Sadly this is probably true.  However, I think it is short-sighted because fans in the seats are your best fans and the ones most likely to be watching when they aren't in the seats.  Oh well.  
Not probably pal. Definitely true. If it wasn't, Maryland and (especially) Rutgers would not be on the top ribbon of the Big Ten website.

I do not disagree with your other premise at all.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 27, 2018, 09:30:36 AM
Wisconsin has looked totally different offensively the last 10 game minutes crossing over halftime.
What do you mean?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 27, 2018, 02:14:07 PM
What do you mean?
They looked a lot more active in creating their shots.  Early on it seemed like they we're just jacking up bad threes or just letting Happ try and go one on two while everyone stood around.
I don't know, I had a hard time caring.  I was mostly playing a new board game with my son and then putting him to bed.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 27, 2018, 02:22:13 PM
OK, thanks. Honestly I didn't watch it. I'm not used to this Friday night stuff yet and forgot they were playing.

I watched the hockey game.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 27, 2018, 04:11:56 PM
Real talk, this Friday night stuff is bad. Like I get any of the other days, not Friday.

That said, UW had no business being in that game and was, which is encouraging. That said, the talent they have, at this juncture is just not good enough. Maybe after another year with the two injured guys back.

They'll lose Van Vliet most likely. I know Badge thinks they'll lose another two stiffs, but I don't know to what end. UW already has one open scholorship and it doesn't look like anyone to fill it. AVV opens another, so I'm unsure a third really matters unless they have sights set on a transfer/grad transfer. Most likely it ends up with a walk-on again. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 27, 2018, 06:23:18 PM
BaB,

We've discussed many times over the years here the nature of UW's classes and how damn unbalanced they have been (5 one year, 1 the next, etc.).

I think they should find a good player with the 'ship they have (think the Libertyville kid near me - he's pretty solid).

If they do lose at least one (and hopefully 3), they just need to bank them and get the classes balanced again.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 27, 2018, 06:28:41 PM
Should be wide open next year.  Purdue and MSU both have major losses.  With Wagner UM would be a heavy favorite, without, I think they'll still be the best.

Keep an eye on Maryland next year too.  If these PSU sophomores take a big step they'll be a factor, but I said that last year too.  OSU is tough to say, but they'll be around.

MSU and Purdue are both likely NCAA teams, but I don't think either is a title contender.

Wisconsin might be the toughest read.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 28, 2018, 10:30:35 AM
BaB,

We've discussed many times over the years here the nature of UW's classes and how damn unbalanced they have been (5 one year, 1 the next, etc.).

I think they should find a good player with the 'ship they have (think the Libertyville kid near me - he's pretty solid).

If they do lose at least one (and hopefully 3), they just need to bank them and get the classes balanced again.
I guess this is my point.  If you were going to leave one open, or two, why not just hold onto the player? AI  still has ninth man potential ( obviously ninth men do very little). Thomas could be a body in practice if nothing else. Both seem to go hard against the starters,  without them, it is more walk-ons/assistant coaches. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 28, 2018, 11:15:26 AM
It depends on the chemistry. Not so much with AI, but you can see the body language of AVV and CT on the bench when they don't play. Not a good look.

I'd rather reward a hard-working walk-on then have bodies just for the sake of it, especially if they are not bought in.

CT puzzles me. He's got the size to make a difference. He hasn't done that yet. Could he do it as a senior? Tough call. AVV has got to go for sure though. Even Krabby talked about this recently. The guy just doesn't get it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 28, 2018, 12:35:40 PM
Tough for me to give a shit, starting to think Izzo should take a leave pending investigation, but as for on the court news, looks like Fernando is out there for warm-ups for Maryland.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 28, 2018, 03:16:12 PM
SSDHalf. 

As well as I could expect I guess.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 28, 2018, 03:35:23 PM
Painter towering over Archie while shaking his hand is about to be everywhere
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 28, 2018, 04:02:49 PM
Nothing personal, but you can't be a huge white guy with hair product without being widely disliked, but credit to him, Haas has developed into a much better player than I ever assumed he would.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 28, 2018, 04:58:59 PM
Painter and Hartman both on point with rivalry sport coats.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 28, 2018, 05:00:19 PM
Indianas help defense on Haas is awful
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on January 28, 2018, 05:05:32 PM
Fun game.  Very buzzy the past few days around town.  Flags flying etc.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on January 28, 2018, 05:29:13 PM
Some of the FGa by IU, whew they are who I thought they were.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 28, 2018, 06:33:25 PM
Carsen Edwards has been having a problem with bricked dunks on breakaways...

Certainly picked the right game to get his first collegiate dunk!

https://twitter.com/PurdueOnBTN/status/957732403291684864
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 29, 2018, 10:35:35 AM
There were no upsets (per the tiers) this weekend so no change to projections.  For review, here are the tiers (with +/- for upsets):
Upsets so far have been:
DateWon@/vLost
4-DecUW@PSU
2-JanUNL@NU
6-JanIU@MN
11-JanIA@ILL
13-JanM@MSU
15-JanMN@PSU
20-JantOSUMSG*MN
23-JanNU@MN
25-JanPSU@tOSU
*Ohio State's win over Minnesota is treated as an "upset" because it replaced a Minnesota home game but the game was actually played at MSG in NYC so it should not be credited to Ohio State nor held against Minnesota.  

The projected final standings/BTT seeds are:
The match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 29, 2018, 11:11:19 AM
I'm rooting for the two road teams tonight

Northwestern @ Michigan and Nebraska @ Wisconsin

will also be watching the Jayhawks at the Purple Cats

Monday night hoops is good
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 29, 2018, 11:31:29 AM
Starting to think about the bubble:
Barring collapse the top three (PU, tOSU, and MSU) will obviously be in.  Similarly, barring a miracle the bottom four (MN, RU, IA, IL) will not be playing NCAA Tournament ball this year.  That leaves seven B1G where things could go either way:

7-4 Nebraska:  The blessing and curse for the Cornhuskers is that they have a surprisingly weak B1G schedule.  That is a blessing because they should finish with a pretty strong (looking) league record but it is a curse because their only quality win in conference was over the Wolverines (at home) and they have no remaining chances against likely tournament teams.  Nebraska travels to Madison tonight then has more than a week off before heading to Minneapolis next Tuesday.  We project them to lose both of those road games.  After that they finish with four of five at home and the lone road game is at lowly Illinois so we project them to win their last five and finish 12-6.  I don't think 12-6 would be enough for the Cornhuskers without a quality win (or two) in NYC so I think they need to win at least one of their next two.  

6-4 Michigan:  The Wolverines are probably in better shape than it would at first appear.  We project them to go 4-4 in their last eight to finish 10-8 which is a weak record in the B1G this year.  The good news for Michigan is that of the four projected losses (@NU, @UW, @PSU, @UMD) I think that three are close to toss-ups.  Additionally, of the four projected wins (vsNU, vsMN, vsIA, vstOSU) I believe that the Wolverines do not have more than a token chance of losing in three of those four games.  If the Wolverines do finish 10-8 I believe that they will get to the BTT at MSG in NYC with a lot of work to do but it is reasonably likely that they will finish a couple games better than that and probably safely locked into the NCAA before the games in NYC begin.  

5-5 Penn State:  The Nittany Lions rejuvenated their tournament hopes with their win in Columbus last week but they clearly still have a long way to go.  They have some dreadful losses that they will have to make up for.  We project them to go 5-3 down the stretch to finish 10-8 but that clearly will not be enough.  The problem is that the three projected losses are @MSU (Wednesday), @Purdue, and @ Nebraska.  Of the three, only Nebraska seems likely to flip.  Meanwhile they have two projected wins that could easily flip to losses (vstOSU, vM).  At a minimum, I think they need to win all of the projected wins and knock off the Cornhuskers in Lincoln.  That is a tall order.  

5-5 Indiana:  We project the Hoosiers do go 2-6 down the stretch and finish 7-11 in the B1G.  Even flipping that to 6-2 to finish 11-7 might not be enough so the Hoosiers are rapidly running out of time.  Their next two are at Ohio State (Tuesday) and vsMSU (Saturday).  IMHO, if they don't win one of those two you can stick a fork in them.  

4-5 Northwestern:  We project the Wildcats to go 3-6 down the stretch and finish 7-11 in the B1G.  They probably need to finish 7-2 to have a chance so the Wildcats are also rapidly running out of time.  Their next two are at Michigan (tonight) and at Wisconsin (Thursday).  IMHO, if they don't win one of those two you can stick a fork in them.  

4-6 Maryland:  We project the Terrapins to go 4-4 down the stretch and finish 8-10 in the B1G.  The good news is that three of the projected losses (@PSU, @UNL, @NU) seem like winnable games.  The bad news is that, at a minimum, they probably need to win all of those and the four projected wins.  That would get them to 11-7 which probably isn't in, but it likely is at least on the bubble.  That means that if they lose at Purdue on Wednesday they likely need to win out after that.  

3-6 Wisconsin:  The Badgers have finished in the top-4 in the B1G a staggering 16 years in a row.  Additionally, they have appeared in the last 19 straight NCAA Tournaments.  Both of those streaks are on life support.  They would likely need to win out to finish in the top-4 of the B1G.  The good news is that six of the Badgers' last nine games are at home.  Further good news is that two of the three remaining road games (@IL, @NU) appear to be winnable.  The bad news is that three of the home games (vsM, vsPU, vMSU) look to be likely losses.  We project the Badgers to go 4-5 down the stretch and finish 7-11 in the B1G.  They probably need to be near-perfect to get to NYC on the bubble.  Their next two are home games against Nebraska (tonight) and Northwestern (Thursday).  IMHO, if they don't win both you can stick a fork in them.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 29, 2018, 12:04:35 PM
Ohio State even*
Minnesota -2*

DateWon@/vLost
4-DecUW@PSU
2-JanUNL@NU
6-JanIU@MN
11-JanIA@ILL
13-JanM@MSU
15-JanMN@PSU
20-JantOSUMSG*MN
23-JanNU@MN
25-JanPSU@tOSU
*Ohio State's win over Minnesota is treated as an "upset" because it replaced a Minnesota home game but the game was actually played at MSG in NYC so it should not be credited to Ohio State nor held against Minnesota.  
IMHO you shouldn't "score" the OSU over MN win as an upset. It was a neutral site game, so I would think that if you remove HFA, a 1-tier advantage team should beat their opponent, which is what happened.
Now, I agree with the asterisk, but I would rather you display it as OSU (-1) and Minnesota (-1) than even and -2, respectively.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on January 29, 2018, 12:17:28 PM
Penn State's going to really look back at a few losses later this year and wonder 'what if'.  The home loss to Rider is inexcusable, period.  Squandering a chance to get a road W at IU will ultimately hurt, and the loss at home to Minne will hurt greatly too.  They also squandered a later lead at Northwestern that would have helped RPI tremendously.  

Feels like a year Penn State really had a chance to take a step forward and missed it big time.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 29, 2018, 12:21:45 PM
IMHO you shouldn't "score" the OSU over MN win as an upset. It was a neutral site game, so I would think that if you remove HFA, a 1-tier advantage team should beat their opponent, which is what happened.
Now, I agree with the asterisk, but I would rather you display it as OSU (-1) and Minnesota (-1) than even and -2, respectively.
I would, but there is a reason I didn't.  
In the spreadsheet where I track these projections I start with each team's projected record in a 26 game double-round-robin:
Next I have four columns for road games not played then four columns for home games not played.  Then I list the projected record in the eight games not played.  
Next I subtract the projected record in games not played from the projected record in a double-round-robin to calculate the initial projection (before upsets) for each team:
Then I track the upsets with my +Var, -Var, and Var columns to keep track of the updated projection.  This is a check-figure for my other projection column in which I'm looking at individual games.  

Sorry for the long explanation, but here is the problem:  As my spreadsheet is currently set up, I have to treat the game as an upset because it replaced a Minnesota home game.  I could fix it by adding several new columns to track games moved to neutral sites and the change in projected record created by those moves but it just isn't worth it for something that only comes up once in a while.  That is why I used the asterisk.  It is a lot easier than adding a bunch of columns to my spreadsheet that would only rarely be relevant.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 29, 2018, 12:32:03 PM
The last time the Badgers played in a BTT game prior to Friday Bill Clinton was POTUS.  Way back On Thursday, March 9, 2000 #6 Wisconsin beat #11 Northwestern.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 29, 2018, 12:39:57 PM
It's all about the coaching
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 29, 2018, 02:01:27 PM
It's all about the coaching
I agree to a point. Greg Gard is a very good coach. He took a "disaster" of a team over when Bo stepped down and got to within a hair of the Elite 8. Then he got them to the 16 last season.

This year is about the ponies, and Bo's final class is turning out to be horrible. The young kids are actually pretty good right now, but they are young and need more development. They also have had two key pieces injured for most of the season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 29, 2018, 03:51:57 PM
The projected final standings/BTT seeds are:
  • 17-1 Purdue
  • 16-2 Michigan State
  • 14-4 Ohio State
  • 12-6 Nebraska
  • 10-8 Penn State (wins tiebreaker over M based on H2H, no game in Ann Arbor)
  • 10-8 Michigan
  • 8-10 Maryland
If you look at this, it is EXTREMELY favorable to Purdue.  IMHO, the power-ranking of B1G teams is roughly:
Now note the way the BTT projects.  Four of the top-five are on one side of the bracket.  It is almost entirely because of scheduling:
Thus, Nebraska and Penn State project to the 4-seed and 5-seed in the BTT.  The current projection is that Purdue would not need to beat any team better than perhaps the 6th best team in the conference to reach the B1GCG.  Michigan State, on the other hand, would likely have to beat the 3rd best team in the semi-final after beating the 5th best team in the quarter-final.  Moreover, if the Spartans did get lucky enough to miss the 3rd best team it would likely only be because they got upset by the 4th best team.  There really isn't a break for the 2-seed.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 29, 2018, 04:05:33 PM
Hey, the last thing any Purdue fan wants is to have to face Michigan again. I'd much rather be up against UNL or PSU...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 29, 2018, 05:12:11 PM
Hey, the last thing any Purdue fan wants is to have to face Michigan again. I'd much rather be up against UNL or PSU...
It isn't just that.  Another angle here is that if #1 gets upset there could be a BIG drop to the next best team on that side of the bracket.  
As a Purdue fan you, of course, realize that this isn't merely a theoretical thing.  The #1 seed has a surprisingly weak history in their opener against the 8/9 winner:

So in 20 years of B1G Tournaments the #1 seed has either lost to or barely squeaked past the 8/9 winner half of the time.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 29, 2018, 05:34:00 PM
So random thought I had about the tournament.  We've bitched plenty about the whole week early thing, but an even worse part of it I hadn't thought of til today.

Most of those early tourneys are 1 bid leagues, so even with the layoff, the tourney teams coming out of there played 3-4 games that weekend, so the rest isn't the worst thing in the world.

What are the changes Purdue, OSU, MSU and UM (if it's them) ALL win their Friday game?  I'd say pretty slim.  So for probably at least 1 of those teams, you are playing a Saturday game, then 6 days off, playing a Friday game, then potentially 2 more weeks off before your first tourney game.  That's 1 game in like 19ish days leading up to the tourney.  It's potentially a lot worse than just the extended lay off.  Typically I don't mind MSU going like 2 and out in the event and getting ready for the NCAAs, but this year I think I want MSU to get as much run in as possible, if for no other reason than just getting to Sunday cuts that downtime by 2 days.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 29, 2018, 05:47:37 PM
Updated composite computer poll, 45 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Villanova (1)
2.Virginia (3)
3.PURDUE (2)
4.Duke (4)
5.Kansas (5)
6.MICHIGAN STATE (8)
7.Cincinnati (10)
8.Xavier (9)
9.Auburn (13)
10.North Carolina (6)
11.Texas Tech (14)
12.Tennessee (16)
13.West Virginia (7)
14.Clemson (11)
15.Oklahoma (15)
16.Gonzaga (17)
17.OHIO STATE (12)
18.Arizona (18)
19.Wichita State (21)
20.Kentucky (-)
21.Florida (19)
22.Saint Mary's (22)
23.Florida State (-)
24.Creighton (25)
25.Rhode Island (24)
-
30.Michigan (27)
47.Maryland (39)
61.Nebraska (60)
68.Penn State (77)
76.Minnesota (66)
77.Northwestern (86)
84.Indiana (91)
96.Wisconsin (89)
111.Iowa (111)
114.Illinois (118)
137.Rutgers (120)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 29, 2018, 06:04:50 PM
I remember at least SOME chatter about the B1G scheduling games with conferences that do not do tournaments during that week off. I take it nothing came of this?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 29, 2018, 11:10:05 PM
Wow, what a final 10 minutes by Nebraska
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on January 29, 2018, 11:16:54 PM
Wow, what a final 20 minutes by Nebraska
I'm not sure why this team is trying to hurt me so, but God it is. 
Because it's a stupid Monday game, I wasn't watching the start. Only tuned in with about 11 minutes go and UW up 10. What a mess. Badgers gave up a 30-8 run unless my math is off. Blech. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 29, 2018, 11:20:45 PM
Wow, what a final 20 minutes by Nebraska
Iverson's big dunk pissed off the Huskers
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on January 30, 2018, 12:23:14 AM
For some reason Michigan keeps playing to their competition, or worse, though I guess that's better in the first halves than the second halves. Needless to say, the first half against Northwestern was quite ugly, and the offense finally showed up well enough in the second half.

Another long break until Saturday to prepare for Minnesota so hopefully the rest helps.... I'll be at the rematch in Rosemont next week....

Needless to say, I never thought Michigan's defense would ever be better than its offense under Beilein.... It almost looks like an Amaker team this year....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 30, 2018, 06:38:51 AM
Monday game... I missed it. Probably not a bad thing.

I was just looking and I guess it was on BTN. I don't get why the 8PM start though. All they had on before it was re-runs of Elite or whatever.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 30, 2018, 07:57:57 AM
Monday game... I missed it. Probably not a bad thing.

I was just looking and I guess it was on BTN. I don't get why the 8PM start though. All they had on before it was re-runs of Elite or whatever.
Didn't want to have it on at the same time as the FS1 Big Ten game.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 30, 2018, 09:37:36 AM
I admit that it is kinda weird how both Purdue and Michigan had this epic game where neither team could miss, and then they both came out in their next game and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn for a half.  Fortunately, both were able to grind out a win.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 30, 2018, 10:46:57 AM
I admit that it is kinda weird how both Purdue and Michigan had this epic game where neither team could miss, and then they both came out in their next game and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn for a half.  Fortunately, both were able to grind out a win.
(https://i1.wp.com/www.wall4k.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Um-mm-yeah-nah-Funny-Nah-Meme-Images.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 30, 2018, 11:19:33 AM
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/6e/4b/c5/6e4bc5f9e45d25779b0bf53c26ace9d2--buckeye-sports-ohio-stadium.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 30, 2018, 11:32:48 AM
(https://i1.wp.com/www.wall4k.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Um-mm-yeah-nah-Funny-Nah-Meme-Images.jpg)
Well, yeah, I get your perspective, but from a Big Ten perspective, it was better that both Michigan and Purdue won.  I think I've come to the point where I can honestly say I would prefer that PU, MSU, OSU, Mich, and maybe one of Maryland or Nebraska win out the rest of their games against all the other lower teams.

Make the top 5 seem as strong as possible .  The league is down this year, there is nothing that can happen in the next 6 weeks to change that, but at least being able to keep the top 4 in the top 25 and have at least one or two decently strong teams goes a long way on the perception front.

That would be greeeeeeeaaaaat.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 30, 2018, 11:41:24 AM
Well, yeah, I get your perspective, but from a Big Ten perspective, it was better that both Michigan and Purdue won.  I think I've come to the point where I can honestly say I would prefer that PU, MSU, OSU, Mich, and maybe one of Maryland or Nebraska win out the rest of their games against all the other lower teams.

Make the top 5 seem as strong as possible .  The league is down this year, there is nothing that can happen in the next 6 weeks to change that, but at least being able to keep the top 4 in the top 25 and have at least one or two decently strong teams goes a long way on the perception front.

That would be greeeeeeeaaaaat.
I'd prefer to win a Big Ten title, which means MSU needs to win out, and someone needs to knock off Purdue.  If that someone is OSU, it means someone else needs to beat the Bucks.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 30, 2018, 11:58:10 AM
As I said, I understand your perspective.


You're just wrong, that's all.   ;)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 30, 2018, 01:29:20 PM
This Michigan team looks a lot more like a Bo Ryan coached Wisconsin team than a Beilein team. They usually start games slow, wear down opponents with strong fundamental D, shoot strong in the 2nd half, don't turn the ball over, etc, and tend to win games with scoring in the 50's and 60's.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 30, 2018, 03:28:57 PM
I'd prefer to win a Big Ten title, which means MSU needs to win out, and someone needs to knock off Purdue.  If that someone is OSU, it means someone else needs to beat the Bucks.
I'm curious, do you care at all if it is outright as opposed to a "co" and do you care at all how the tiebreakers work?  As for myself, I'd love a B1G Championship.  I'd prefer outright but I do not see that as a big deal and (other than the way in which it impacts BTT seeding*) I could care less how the tiebreakers work out.  
*Depending on how the field shakes out, there are some years when I would prefer to lose a 2-way or 3-way tie as far as BTT seeding goes.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 30, 2018, 03:39:38 PM
I'm curious, do you care at all if it is outright as opposed to a "co" and do you care at all how the tiebreakers work?  As for myself, I'd love a B1G Championship.  I'd prefer outright but I do not see that as a big deal and (other than the way in which it impacts BTT seeding*) I could care less how the tiebreakers work out.  
*Depending on how the field shakes out, there are some years when I would prefer to lose a 2-way or 3-way tie as far as BTT seeding goes.  
Yeah, I'd rather not share it, but it doesn't really matter.  As for seeding, I don't care at all.  The standings, particularly in the middle are so fluid that I don't think there's an inherent advantage in playing the 8 vs the 7 vs the 6.
Back in the old 11 team days when they flipped the game order Friday to Saturday there was a big edge.  2 or 3 meant you had to play at 7 or 9 on Friday night, then turn around and play at 1:30 on Saturday, while #1 meant you played noon on Friday and 4 on Saturday.  The difference in 28 hours vs. 16 hours between tips in huge.  I recall once MSU was the 6, upset Illinois in the 3-6 game that went to OT, and ended after midnight.  Their semifinal vs. Iowa on Saturday might have been one of the worst attempts at playing basketball I've ever seen.  Maybe 2006ish?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 30, 2018, 03:40:29 PM
Nebraska's win in Madison was unexpected and changes the projections.  New projected final standings and BTT seeds:
New projected match-ups for the BTT at MSG in NYC:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 30, 2018, 03:51:29 PM
FWIW:  I think that Nebraska's win last night was HUGE for them.  They travel to Minnesota a week from today then finish up with four home games (RU, UMD, IU, PSU) and a road trip to struggling (that is being charitable) Illinois.  We project them to lose in Minneapolis then win the last five to finish 13-5.  That would at least get them onto the Bubble heading to NYC.  After Maryland's home loss to the Spartans I now think that Nebraska is probably the B1G's best chance at a fifth team in the NCAA Tournament.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 30, 2018, 03:58:14 PM
Obviously having sole possession of the regular season championship is preferred to co-champion. But any share of the championship is a share of the championship and worth celebrating.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 30, 2018, 04:30:08 PM
FWIW:  I think that Nebraska's win last night was HUGE for them.  They travel to Minnesota a week from today then finish up with four home games (RU, UMD, IU, PSU) and a road trip to struggling (that is being charitable) Illinois.  We project them to lose in Minneapolis then win the last five to finish 13-5.  That would at least get them onto the Bubble heading to NYC.  After Maryland's home loss to the Spartans I now think that Nebraska is probably the B1G's best chance at a fifth team in the NCAA Tournament.  
if the full week of rest helps, they could beat the Gophers on the road and then have some real momentum coming home to the vault
could finish 4th in the conference, but they really struggle with fundamentals and bone head plays for long stretches.
making the tourney would obviously save Miles job, a tourney victory would be crazy
I guess crazy things happen in basketball
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 30, 2018, 05:17:21 PM
if the full week of rest helps, they could beat the Gophers on the road and then have some real momentum coming home to the vault
could finish 4th in the conference, but they really struggle with fundamentals and bone head plays for long stretches.
making the tourney would obviously save Miles job, a tourney victory would be crazy
I guess crazy things happen in basketball
What would it take to get Nebraska into the dance?
Here are their remaining games and the projections (per the tiers):
That would get them to 13-5/22-9.  

As we have discussed they have a potentially problematic lack of quality wins.  Their best win (by far) was by 20 at home over Michigan.  The flip side of that is that their losses aren't too bad:

The Cornhuskers' worst two losses were very early in the season so that might help.  

Of the last six games, a road loss to Minnesota or a home loss to Maryland wouldn't be too bad.  As long as they only lose one of those and win the rest I think they are at least on the bubble at 13-5/22-9.  If they could win out, I think they would be a lock.  First off, that would get them a very good 14-4/23-8 record.  Secondly, including the wins over RU, IA, and UW it would mean finishing on a nine game winning streak so that when the committee looked at records Nebraska would be 9-1 in their last 10.  

I think they *MIGHT* get in at 13-5 with a loss in their BTT opener but it could depend on the opponent they draw.  They would likely be the 4-seed* so their opening game would be Friday against either #5 or the 12/13 winner.  There is a good chance that would be a ranked and tournament-bound Michigan team.  In that case, I think Nebraska might be able to absorb a quick exit from the BTT.  Where they maybe couldn't is if either the Nittany Lions get the 5-seed or if the 12/13 winner knocks off #5 on Thursday.  I'm not sure that a 13-5/22-9 Nebraska team could absorb a bad loss.  

The 4-seed is VERY likely for a hypothetical 13-5 Nebraska.  It projects at fourth place one game behind the Buckeyes and three games ahead of the Wolverines and Nittany Lions.  If the Buckeyes dropped an extra game it wouldn't make any difference because Nebraska would lose that tie.  Additionally, if the Wolverines won three more games that wouldn't make any difference either because Nebraska would win that tie.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 30, 2018, 06:39:50 PM
What would it take to get Nebraska into the dance?

That would get them to 13-5/22-9.  This could be enough

  • 12/16:  vs Kansas by 1:  This is probably the game the Cornhuskers most wish they could have back.  Still, it is about as much of a "good loss" as you can imagine.  yes and yes, friggin Jayhawks!


Of the last six games, a road loss to Minnesota or a home loss to Maryland wouldn't be too bad.  As long as they only lose one of those and win the rest I think they are at least on the bubble at 13-5/22-9.  If they could win out, I think they would be a lock.  First off, that would get them a very good 14-4/23-8 record.  Secondly, including the wins over RU, IA, and UW it would mean finishing on a nine game winning streak so that when the committee looked at records Nebraska would be 9-1 in their last 10.  Finishing strong helps a lot.



The 4-seed is VERY likely for a hypothetical 13-5 Nebraska.  If only 4 Big Ten teams get in, the Huskers could be the 4th
but, obviously there are 6 games ahead of this cart
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 10:15:04 AM
Nebraska may finish 4th, as a product of their schedule, but Michigan would have to fall off quite a bit for Nebraska to leap them in terms of tourney profile.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 31, 2018, 10:24:47 AM
Is Purdue going to be able to make it wire to wire through the Big Ten regular season, without tripping over any of the road apples? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 31, 2018, 10:41:31 AM
Is Purdue going to be able to make it wire to wire through the Big Ten regular season, without tripping over any of the road apples?
Well, @MSU wouldn't even be an upset for Purdue to lose. Apparently the win probability in that game is ~54% MSU. 
And tonight's home game against Maryland and a week from now against OSU are tough even at home.
Right before a week of playing vOSU/@MSU is this Saturday's game @RU. A road game against a downtrodden but plucky conference foe? Can you say "trap game".
If Purdue gets to 14-0, my money is on them making it to 18. But the next 11 days are not an easy road.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 11:12:07 AM
Well, @MSU wouldn't even be an upset for Purdue to lose. Apparently the win probability in that game is ~54% MSU.
And tonight's home game against Maryland and a week from now against OSU are tough even at home.
Right before a week of playing vOSU/@MSU is this Saturday's game @RU. A road game against a downtrodden but plucky conference foe? Can you say "trap game".
If Purdue gets to 14-0, my money is on them making it to 18. But the next 11 days are not an easy road.
Yeah, I think MSU has a slightly better frontcourt, and much better depth.  But Purdue has a much better backcourt.  MSU's backcourt is serviceable shooting the ball, and pretty good in transition, but terrible in the hafl court, and can't defend to save their lives.  Haas will do some damage, but I think MSU does ok down low there, but I think Purdue absolutely kills them on the perimeter.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 31, 2018, 11:22:48 AM
Nebraska may finish 4th, as a product of their schedule, but Michigan would have to fall off quite a bit for Nebraska to leap them in terms of tourney profile.
Well, @MSU wouldn't even be an upset for Purdue to lose. Apparently the win probability in that game is ~54% MSU.
And tonight's home game against Maryland and a week from now against OSU are tough even at home.
Right before a week of playing vOSU/@MSU is this Saturday's game @RU. A road game against a downtrodden but plucky conference foe? Can you say "trap game".
If Purdue gets to 14-0, my money is on them making it to 18. But the next 11 days are not an easy road.
On this subject of schedules, the B1G schedule this year deprived us of a lot of top games.  
We've talked at length about Nebraska's favorable schedule, but the Spartans may have an even more favorable schedule.  At this point I believe that, barring a Terrapin win in West Lafayette tonight, the Cornhuskers have passed the Terrapins and are one of the top five teams in the league.  My position is that the top five teams are (not in order):  PU, tOSU, MSU, UNL, M.  
Each of the five could potentially play eight games against top-5 opponents.  Instead, here is what they each play:

I quoted Bwar's post because I found it interesting that the three biggest games in the league this year (apparently) are MSU@tOSU, tOSU@PU, and PU@MSU.  One was way back in early January and the other two are back-to-back Purdue games starting a week from today.  

I also agree with Bwar that the next four are the issue as to whether or not Purdue will make it to 18-0:
That is some tough scheduling there.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 31, 2018, 11:50:52 AM
Current tiers (with +/- for upsets):
*See earlier note about Ohio State's win over Minnesota in NYC not really being an upset.  

Looking at the teams that are +/- 2 or more:

Nebraska +2:
There are five games in which tier-2 vs tier-3 makes a difference (home games against the two tier-1 teams and road games against the three tier-4 teams).  Of those five:
Thus, Nebraska is 2-0 in games where tier-2/tier-3 makes a difference.  They will be promoted to tier-2.  

Minnesota -3*:
There are five games in which tier-3 vs tier-4 makes a difference (home games against the tier-2 teams and road games against the tier-5 teams).  Of those five:
Thus Minnesota is 0-1 with one to play.  

Iowa +2:
Moving Minnesota down to tier-4 will put Iowa back to +1.  

New tiers (with +/- for upsets):
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 31, 2018, 12:01:30 PM
Based on the updated tiers (see above) the updated projected final standings and BTT seeds are:
The match-ups for the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 31, 2018, 01:47:21 PM
Yeah, I think MSU has a slightly better frontcourt, and much better depth.  But Purdue has a much better backcourt.  MSU's backcourt is serviceable shooting the ball, and pretty good in transition, but terrible in the hafl court, and can't defend to save their lives.  Haas will do some damage, but I think MSU does ok down low there, but I think Purdue absolutely kills them on the perimeter.
To be honest, I don't watch a lot of teams outside Purdue, but I'm a little surprised that anyone is rating a frontcourt better than Purdue's.
Haas is a downright beast. I don't care who MSU has, if you are trying to defend him without double-teaming, he's going to eat you alive. He's got amazing post moves and can score easily on traditional centers, and athletic 5's just don't have the muscle to stop him if he gets the ball on the low block. Oh, and if you try to swarm and double-team him? He's become great at passing out of the post to a collection of the best 3-pt shooters in the country. His downside of course is *defending* athletic 5's, particularly if they're stretch 5's (guys like Wagner). He doesn't defend well away from the basket. I don't know if MSU has one of those, but I don't recall Ward being that, nor any of the other taller forwards other than JJJ.
At the 4 we have Vince Edwards, who is basically a do-it-all Swiss Army Knife player. He can take over and be the team's leading scorer on any given night, he's a solid [if not phenomenal] defender, and pretty good rebounder. He doesn't have elite athleticism, but he's no slouch. He's got pretty solid BBIQ. He might have trouble defending someone with the length and athleticism of JJJ (assuming JJJ doesn't play in the post where he'll get Haas or Haarms), or the freak athleticism of Bridges [not sure if Mathias will draw Bridges if MSU tries to play big with Ward/JJJ/Bridges?]. But he's a crafty senior who can often use his BBIQ and experience to mask some of his lack of athleticism.
And then you have Haarms backing up Haas and very occasionally playing alongside him. Haas is a more natural defender and more athletic than Haas, and at 7'3" has the length to be an elite shot-blocker. He's the most natural defensive answer to JJJ in my opinion. His liability is offense, but Purdue completely changes up their offensive scheme when he comes in for Haas, and they don't play so much through the post, so MSU has to be able to defend much differently depending on Purdue's personnel.
As you point out, we don't have great depth. Beyond Haas/Haarms we have Jacquil Taylor, a long athletic 5 but who doesn't get many minutes [partly plagued by 3 years of injuries cutting into his practice and development], and Grady Eifert, a preferred walk-on who plays above his talent level but is really only suitable for spot minutes when Vince is gassed. 
----------------
I think MSU has a hard task defensively. If you try to play Haas straight up, I'm not sure there's anyone on MSU's roster than can defend him. If you try to double him, those perimeter defenders you malign are short one man against a floor full of capable shooters. Heck, if the perimeter defense is as bad as you suggest, you might still give up too much to our shooters without doubling Haas. Although Haas has had quiet games this year, it's always been when people try to double-team him, and those are the games that our shooters go nuts. It's not that he's not helping the offense when he has a quiet night, it's that he's drawing so much attention that he's opening things up for others.
On the other end is where it'll be hardest for Purdue. MSU has the length and athleticism that has traditionally given Painter teams fits. The strategy has to be to draw Haas out of the paint to open up driving lanes, and attack with your athleticism. Yet from what I've seen, I'm not sure MSU has always done this. I seem to remember the big knock on Bridges being that he should be just abusing people off the dribble with his size and freakish athleticism, but he seems to be content jacking up 3's. But this might be one of the few games where you actually see some "twin towers" going on with Haas down low against Ward, Haarms chasing JJJ around the perimeter, and Edwards trying to keep Bridges from getting the ball down low and cutting where he can attack. The question is whether Haas can play enough minutes [he typically plays only 20-25 per game] in that kind of scenario, and whether Purdue can find ways to exploit MSU offensively if they've got both bigs on the floor [Haarms *can* shoot, but he hasn't quite found his groove yet].
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on January 31, 2018, 02:00:27 PM
Nebraska may finish 4th, as a product of their schedule, but Michigan would have to fall off quite a bit for Nebraska to leap them in terms of tourney profile.
we can always hope
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 02:27:14 PM
To be honest, I don't watch a lot of teams outside Purdue, but I'm a little surprised that anyone is rating a frontcourt better than Purdue's.
As of last I checked MSU's front court defense was historically good.  The gap between their interior defense in terms of FG% and #2 was the same as between #2 and like #73.  Still leading the nation in blocked shots as well.  As I said though, MSU's edge in the front court is MUCH smaller than Purdue's edge in the backcourt, which is why I'd pick Purdue to win.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on January 31, 2018, 03:10:40 PM
MSU is going to win the game against Purdue.  They will come out like gangbusters because A) They know that it is a must-win if they have any shot at getting a Big Ten title, B) They know that their schedule has been somewhat weak, and this is literally their only shot at getting another top 50 RPI win this year.  (Yes, I am aware of the fact that I am using RPI in an argument......inherently flawed, I know).

MSU has played four top 50 teams so far, and lost three of them (Duke, OSU, and Michigan).  Their one Top 50 win (UNC, #11) has lost three in a row and still has games of Duke, @NCSt, @Louisville, Miami, and @ Duke.  It's distinctly possible that they lose all 5 of those.  With a likely loss somewhere in the ACC tournament, they are looking at a possible 20-13 season.  That might keep them in the top 50, but it could be close.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 03:19:49 PM
MSU is going to win the game against Purdue.  They will come out like gangbusters because A) They know that it is a must-win if they have any shot at getting a Big Ten title, B) They know that their schedule has been somewhat weak, and this is literally their only shot at getting another top 50 RPI win this year.  (Yes, I am aware of the fact that I am using RPI in an argument......inherently flawed, I know).

MSU has played four top 50 teams so far, and lost three of them (Duke, OSU, and Michigan).  Their one Top 50 win (UNC, #11) has lost three in a row and still has games of Duke, @NCSt, @Louisville, Miami, and @ Duke.  It's distinctly possible that they lose all 5 of those.  With a likely loss somewhere in the ACC tournament, they are looking at a possible 20-13 season.  That might keep them in the top 50, but it could be close.
Didn't they start moving away from just RPI?  Some of the other metrics are more favorable to the Big Ten.  Maryland is #42 in KenPom, and Penn State and Nebraska are just out at #56 and #57.  UNC is still up at #13, so I imagine they'll remain.  The RPI is really down on the Big Ten this year.  I noticed during the MSU-Maryland game on Sunday, when they showed Maryland's resume, they had a road loss at #23 Michigan slated as a "Bad Loss."  I can't recall losing a road game to a ranked team ever being called a Bad Loss before.
MSU's schedule got hurt by (aside from the Big Ten being down), Notre Dame crashing once Bonzie Colson got hurt.  He was leading them in points and rebounds, and they were #5 when MSU played them.  Also playing UConn didn't exactly help like they assumed it would.  On paper; Duke, Georgetown, UConn, UNC and ND looked really good, then Georgetown dropped out and replaced by DePaul; UConn, UNC and ND are all not what they typically are.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 31, 2018, 03:29:47 PM
As of last I checked MSU's front court defense was historically good.  The gap between their interior defense in terms of FG% and #2 was the same as between #2 and like #73.  Still leading the nation in blocked shots as well.  As I said though, MSU's edge in the front court is MUCH smaller than Purdue's edge in the backcourt, which is why I'd pick Purdue to win.
So I'm intrigued by this... Again, I haven't watched a lot of MSU basketball. But I remember Purdue a few years ago with Hammons (an elite shot-blocker) who was able to clean up defensive missed assignments on the perimeter. He didn't get all those blocks by stopping opposing centers; he got them blocking drives. I wonder whether MSU's great 2P FG% and block numbers are coming from strong post defense, or are coming from being able to keep slashing guards and wings from getting the ball in the hoop. 
When Haas is on the floor, Purdue doesn't run a lot of "drive to the hoop" offense. While he's shown ability to hit players cutting to the hoop when double-teamed, generally the team likes to space the floor and get the ball to him one-on-one on the low block. A defender who is good at timing jumps to affect a driving guard's shot is a lot different than being able to defend Isaac on his little spin moves and hook shots 2 feet from the rim.
Who do you think will draw the defensive assignment in the post against Haas? Can Ward put enough body on him to keep him from getting low block position? Does MSU do a really good job of denying entry passes into the post [I know some teams have done better fronting Haas to keep the ball out of the post than trying to block his position in the post]? 
But from what I've seen, the only way to stop Isaac is to double-team him aggressively as soon as he receives the ball, or keep him from getting it entirely. If he gets the ball on the low block against any single defender, it's pretty much over. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 04:18:42 PM
The help side defense, particularly from JJ has been the best I've seen at MSU.  The other thing is all of their depth is on that front line, so they are also defending without fear of fouling.  Jackson picked up his 4th foul with about 12 minutes left in the Maryland game, and he didn't come back in until about the 2 minute mark.  Typically, that would either be crippling, or they'd have to risk it, and keep him in, telling him to back off.  I think Ward is also showing how good he is as a defender, he blocked 5 of Happ's shots in one half last Friday.  He was victimized by MSU having zero frontline depth last year, and having to stay out of foul trouble.  Getting to go all out, he's a much better shot blocker than we ever thought he was.  So we got Schilling and Carter back from injuries that cost them all of 2017, and added Jackson and Tillman, and at times I get frustrated why guys are on the bench too much, but the way college basketball is now, there are times you can only play 1.  Going to revert next year with Schilling and Carter graduating, Jackson assuredly a 1 and done, and rumors Ward might go too.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 04:23:55 PM
The help side defense, particularly from JJ has been the best I've seen at MSU.  The other thing is all of their depth is on that front line, so they are also defending without fear of fouling.  Jackson picked up his 4th foul with about 12 minutes left in the Maryland game, and he didn't come back in until about the 2 minute mark.  Typically, that would either be crippling, or they'd have to risk it, and keep him in, telling him to back off.  I think Ward is also showing how good he is as a defender, he blocked 5 of Happ's shots in one half last Friday.  He was victimized by MSU having zero frontline depth last year, and having to stay out of foul trouble.  Getting to go all out, he's a much better shot blocker than we ever thought he was.  So we got Schilling and Carter back from injuries that cost them all of 2017, and added Jackson and Tillman, and at times I get frustrated why guys are on the bench too much, but the way college basketball is now, there are times you can only play 1.  Going to revert next year with Schilling and Carter graduating, Jackson assuredly a 1 and done, and rumors Ward might go too.
To add some stats to it, they held Happ to 36% from the floor on Friday, on 19 shots.  That was his 2nd lowest from the season, and his lowest (33%) came on only 6 shots against OSU.  I think at least 6 or 7 of misses came via blocked shot.
The teams who have neutralized MSU's interior defense the best have done so by spacing the floor and eliminating that help defense.  Granted that only works if you have 4 three point threats on the court together.  Obviously Michigan was the best example of that.  Duke was forced to do the same once Bagley got hurt, and it maybe worked out better for them matchup wise.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 31, 2018, 04:51:35 PM
The teams who have neutralized MSU's interior defense the best have done so by spacing the floor and eliminating that help defense.  Granted that only works if you have 4 three point threats on the court together.  Obviously Michigan was the best example of that.  Duke was forced to do the same once Bagley got hurt, and it maybe worked out better for them matchup wise.
Thanks for the notes, ELA. I think I was perhaps underestimating the ability they have to defend centers rather than their good numbers being from defense against other positions and driving. It'll be interesting, though. Happ is 6'10" 235# and shoots free throws at 55%. Haas is 7'2" 290# and if you foul him he shoots from the stripe at 78%.
Replying to your bolded text, hopefully if they try to neutralize Haas, the fact that the other 4 members of our starting five shoot 3PT at rates of .404, .448, .462 and .506 (with our 6th man off the bench at .408) will help push Purdue over the top. Purdue's offense is to isolate Haas down low, space the floor, and force you to pick your poison.
As I heard someone suggest, the Purdue offense is two Ents dunking while an army of Legolas and the elves shoot high-arcing arrows in from long range :)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 05:09:31 PM
Thanks for the notes, ELA. I think I was perhaps underestimating the ability they have to defend centers rather than their good numbers being from defense against other positions and driving. It'll be interesting, though. Happ is 6'10" 235# and shoots free throws at 55%. Haas is 7'2" 290# and if you foul him he shoots from the stripe at 78%.
Replying to your bolded text, hopefully if they try to neutralize Haas, the fact that the other 4 members of our starting five shoot 3PT at rates of .404, .448, .462 and .506 (with our 6th man off the bench at .408) will help push Purdue over the top. Purdue's offense is to isolate Haas down low, space the floor, and force you to pick your poison.
As I heard someone suggest, the Purdue offense is two Ents dunking while an army of Legolas and the elves shoot high-arcing arrows in from long range :)
Yeah, Purdue will be able to bomb away on MSU, I have no doubts there.  Happ actually shot 9-11 from the stripe against MSU, so the strategy of sending him to the line when beat didn't really pay off there.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 31, 2018, 05:26:39 PM
RE the tOSU/IU game last night:

I missed roughly the first 10 minutes and basically I might as well have missed the whole game.  When I caught it the Buckeyes were up by 15, 25-10 about half way through the first half.  The eventually Buckeyes won by 15, 71-56.  In the intervening 30 BB minutes the teams traded buckets and an occasional run but the 15 point Ohio State advantage was never significantly deviated from.  

The game (per play-by-play for the first 10 minutes, then my recollection):
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 31, 2018, 06:21:06 PM
Is Penn State a thread to the Spartans tonight?  One would think not but the Nittany Lions are surprisingly perfect so far against B1G teams currently above .500:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 07:29:23 PM
Worst half MSU has played all year.  No clue how this is only a 6 point deficit.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 07:47:58 PM
Well, now the score is more indicative.  Sweep a 3 game week, then lose at home to an NIT team.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 31, 2018, 08:30:37 PM
LOL

Maryland tough, even at home? 

Cekovsky won't be playing tonight. 

Built in excuse mechanism for Turgeon. 

Purdue scores 100 tonight. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 08:44:11 PM
This whole not scoring in the first half and falling behind by 12+ probably not going to keep working.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 31, 2018, 09:10:21 PM

Unranked Houston was up 18 on the road at #8 Cincinnati in the first half, but wound up losing by 10. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 31, 2018, 09:59:39 PM
B1G refs can go screw themselves. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 31, 2018, 10:24:12 PM
I'm not watching because I don't have BTN but just checking scores it looked like Maryland was going to make a game of it and then Purdue ran away again.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 10:31:17 PM
Fernando already looks much healthier than he did against us.  We caught a break there.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on February 01, 2018, 12:34:47 AM
Not Purdue's best game of the season, shooting was a little off.  Should have put them away in the first half but were able to grind out a win in the second thanks to refs.  If we hadn't paid them off before the game not sure the streak was alive.  Hell in the first half alone the refs made Maryland commit 11 turnovers.  :)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 01, 2018, 12:51:11 PM
Nebraska debuts in Lunardi's latest Bracketology as the 8th team out.  Maryland no longer listed though.  Purdue, MSU and UM hold as 1, 2 and 8 seeds, OSU down from a 3 to a 4
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 01, 2018, 01:59:20 PM
Something about preseason expectations.  OSU-Clemson was actually a much bigger game than we thought it was at the time.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on February 01, 2018, 02:14:29 PM
Heck, even in-season expectations change.  Paraphrasing the CBS rankings article today, it said that Purdue and Arizona entered the 7th / 8th place game for the Battle for Atlantis tournament with a combined record of 7-4 with losses to Western Kentucky, SMU, and NC State.  Both had dropped out of the top 25.

Fast forward two months and the two teams have gone 33-1 since then.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 01, 2018, 03:56:31 PM
Nebraska debuts in Lunardi's latest Bracketology as the 8th team out.  Maryland no longer listed though.  Purdue, MSU and UM hold as 1, 2 and 8 seeds, OSU down from a 3 to a 4
For all the complaining about the refs, I really think it was the B1G schedulers that did in the Terrapins.  If you look at their rpi sheet from the worldwide leader (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/sort/RPI/teamId/120), they really only have the one bad loss (at Indiana) and even that wasn't terrible.  It was a road game and decided by a single possession.  Maryland's problem is on the other side of things, they have a critical shortage of quality wins.  According to ESPN, their only quality wins were over RPI-24 Butler on November 15 and RPI-88 Bucknell on November 18.  In the nearly three months since then they haven't beaten a team in the top-100.  
Here is where the schedule hurts them:
Their only home losses in that time were to Purdue and Michigan State.  Those are two teams that a lot of people think are two of the best in the country, currently projected as a 1-seed (Purdue) and a 2-seed (MSU).  
The Terrapins' other conference losses were road games against PU, MSU, tOSU, M, and IU.  The problem for them is that they do not get either Ohio State or Nebraska at home.  Those are two opponents where a home game might be winnable and the win would be a quality win.  
In their remaining schedule the Terrapins only have two more games against RPI top-100 teams:

If the Terrapins win out they'll finish 11-7/22-9 with only one bad loss (the aforementioned IU game).  Their problem is that they'll still only have four quality wins.  Right now they are:
Thus, even winning out would only get them to:

IMHO, they would still have a lot of work to do in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  Frankly, the only reason that I think that *might* get them on the bubble is that they would be on a seven game winning streak.  If they then went 2-1 in the BTT they'd be 9-1 in their "last 10".  

11-7 would most likely get them either the 5-seed or the 6-seed.  They would have games:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 01, 2018, 04:32:02 PM
Maryland isn't going to win out

the Refs won't allow it
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 01, 2018, 04:44:32 PM
Maryland isn't going to win out

the Refs won't allow it
Well obviously!
Nebraska has a similar problem.  Per the worldwide leader's RPI sheet for them (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/sort/RPI/teamId/158), their only RPI top-50 win was their 20 point home win over Michigan.  Their only other top-100 win was their win over Boston College way back in November.  
Similar to Maryland, the Cornhuskers only have one bad loss, in this case a one possession road loss to #105 Penn State.  The problem is that most of their quality opponents have been on the road.  Nebraska's only home games against RPI top-100 teams were the wins over Michigan and Boston College and that one point loss to Kansas.  Other than that, they have:
Much like Maryland, Nebraska doesn't have a lot of chances to improve things.  They are:
Thus, even if they win out, they'll be:
That isn't great and it is why they probably have to win out.  A loss to Maryland wouldn't be terrible but it would deprive them of a much needed quality win and losses in any of their other remaining games would be problematic.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 01, 2018, 04:48:04 PM
Those refs are sneaky. 

Somehow they have screwed Maryland despite the NCAA statistics showing Maryland is the 41st-fewest fouls per game in the entire NCAA, and the 4th-fewest fouls per game in the B1G. They are doing such a good job of timing their fouls appropriately to hide their screw-job!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 01, 2018, 05:13:10 PM
calling fouls is only one way the refs can affect the outcome of the game

what about all the obvious fouls they don't call on the Terps opponents?  These lead to tons of turnovers and transition baskets .

and then there are all those 50/50 calls deciding possession?

and technicals against Terp players and coaches

 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 01, 2018, 05:18:16 PM
Well obviously!
Nebraska has a similar problem.  

That isn't great and it is why they probably have to win out.  A loss to Maryland wouldn't be terrible but it would deprive them of a much needed quality win and losses in any of their other remaining games would be problematic.  

this is elementary......
the Huskers are 8-4 with Big Ten Refs
the Terps are 4-7 with Big Ten Refs
it's a Husker home game, probably with their favorite ref crew
there's no way the refs will allow the Terps to win in the Vault in Lincoln
especially when it's the best chance for Delaney to get an extra team into the Big Dance  
and the refs just love Tim Miles - who doesn't?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 01, 2018, 06:08:14 PM
You're learning.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 01, 2018, 06:11:01 PM
I am coachable
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 01, 2018, 06:13:11 PM
Weren't the Big Ten refs supposed to put Wisconsin in the CFB Playoffs by handing them the Big Ten Ccg on a silver platter? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 01, 2018, 06:24:08 PM
they will never work in the P5 again
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 01, 2018, 08:10:46 PM
Well obviously!
Nebraska has a similar problem.  Per the worldwide leader's RPI sheet for them (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/sort/RPI/teamId/158), their only RPI top-50 win was their 20 point home win over Michigan.  Their only other top-100 win was their win over Boston College way back in November.  
Similar to Maryland, the Cornhuskers only have one bad loss, in this case a one possession road loss to #105 Penn State.  The problem is that most of their quality opponents have been on the road.  Nebraska's only home games against RPI top-100 teams were the wins over Michigan and Boston College and that one point loss to Kansas.  Other than that, they have:
  • a 12 point road loss to #8 Purdue
  • a 5 point road loss to #22 Ohio State
  • a 29 point road loss to #23 Michigan State
  • a 10 point road loss to #27 Creighton
  • a 9 point neutral site loss to #69 UCF
  • a 23 point road loss to #91 St. Johns
Much like Maryland, Nebraska doesn't have a lot of chances to improve things.  They are:
  • 0-4 against the RPI top-25 with no games left.  
  • 1-5 against the RPI top-50 with no games left.  
  • 2-7 against the RPI top-100 with only #56 Maryland left.  
  • 7-8 against the RPI top-150 with Maryland, #105 Penn State, #117 Indiana, and #120 Minnesota left.  Their other two remaining games are against #151 Illinois and #191 Rutgers.  
Thus, even if they win out, they'll be:
  • 0-4 against the top-25.  
  • 1-5 against the top-50.  
  • 3-7 against the top-100.  
  • 11-8 against the top-150.  
That isn't great and it is why they probably have to win out.  A loss to Maryland wouldn't be terrible but it would deprive them of a much needed quality win and losses in any of their other remaining games would be problematic.  
Amazing analysis,as usual.

I've already written this year off in all sports -- it's just not our year.  Looking forward to opening day, hosting Texas...

edit: since I quoted the "other" brilliant analysis instead of the Maryland one, I should add that by "our" I meant Terrapins.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 01, 2018, 08:35:27 PM
Weren't the Big Ten refs supposed to put Wisconsin in the CFB Playoffs by handing them the Big Ten Ccg on a silver platter?
I wish, but it turned out OK. Pounding Miami into submission on their home field was very rewarding.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 01, 2018, 10:44:27 PM
I wish, but it turned out OK. Pounding Miami into submission on their home field was very rewarding.
both Big Reds understand this
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 02, 2018, 10:11:08 AM
I was just making a comment about the ticky-tack fouls the refs were calling against are only big man.

This wasn't a conspiracy post.

As for Wisconsin, I believe it was supposed to go to whoever had the greatest chance of making the playoffs.

Ohio state was the only team being considered as a razor-thin comparison versus Alabama. 

Wisconsin wasn't really in the mix according to the committee.

So, naturally, they had to make the game interesting between Ohio State and Wisconsin with Ohio State edging them out.

Got it? Keep up. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 02, 2018, 10:17:09 AM
OSU would have had a better chance at making the playoffs with another 59-0 vs a narrow victory. 

An undefeated Wisconsin would have been a lock for the playoffs. 

The outcome of the Big Ten Ccg was the worst possible scenario, with regards to getting a team into the playoffs. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 02, 2018, 10:55:15 AM
The UW/OSU game got interesting because the UW defense made adjustments after the half and locked OSU down. Then Hornibrook and Co. started to make some plays. It had nothing to do with officiating.

And, yes, Wisconsin was in, probably as the #3 or #4, had they beat OSU. They went into the weekend as the #4.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 02, 2018, 11:34:52 AM
OSU would have had a better chance at making the playoffs with another 59-0 vs a narrow victory.

An undefeated Wisconsin would have been a lock for the playoffs.

The outcome of the Big Ten Ccg was the worst possible scenario, with regards to getting a team into the playoffs.
Exactly.  It was obvious at the time that a Wisconsin victory would have gotten them in.  Based on the committee's infamous "very little separation" comment it appeared that it didn't matter because the winner was in either way.  In retrospect there were only two ways for a B1G team to get in:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 02, 2018, 11:35:08 AM
Isn't this thread supposed to be about Basketball?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 02, 2018, 12:02:46 PM
Nebrasketball doesn't play until Tuesday
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 02, 2018, 12:18:59 PM
Northwestern's road win over Wisconsin was an upset so we have new projections:
Based on these projections the match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday:
Thursday:
Friday:
Saturday:
Sunday:


*Here is the tiebreaker for Maryland/Northwestern, it is one of the most complicated I have ever encountered:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 02, 2018, 12:54:13 PM
Looking at the Bubble:

I'm not willing to call even Purdue a lock just yet.  Please note here that I am fanatically literal with the terms "lock" and "needs to win BTT".  Thus, I wouldn't call Purdue a lock just yet because if they lost their last seven scheduled games then got bounced in their first game of the BTT that would be an eight game losing streak.  A 2-8 "last 10" coupled with what would be some dreadfully bad losses could potentially keep Purdue out so at this point I do not yet believe that the B1G has any "locks".  

That said, it is pretty clear that barring a stupendous collapse the Boilermakers, Buckeyes, and Spartans will all be safely locked into the NCAA Tournament long before we get to the BTT at MSG in NYC.  

Similarly I believe that all of the B1G teams with eight or more losses are in or very close to the "need to win BTT" category.  In theory one of them could finish on a seven or eight game winning streak then go 2-1 in the BTT but that still probably wouldn't be enough so Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Rutgers each probably need to win the BTT to make it to the NCAA Tournament.  

That leaves six teams:
Nebraska 8-4:
The Cornhuskers have won three in a row and are now the very last team listed in Lunardi's "Next Four Out" so they are on the fringe of the bubble.  Their major defect is a critical shortage of quality wins (discussed upthread).  Winning out would get them to 14-4 but anything short of that could be problematic.  They only play one more quality opponent (Maryland at home).  They really need the quality win.  Any other loss would clearly be a "bad loss" and with their lack of quality wins the Cornhuskers probably can't afford any of those.  

Michigan 7-4:
The Wolverines are an 8-seed in Lunardi's latest projections.  We project them to go 3-4 over their last seven to finish 10-8.  That would be seriously problematic but the good news is that they can probably do better than projected.  The projected wins are home games against Minnesota, Iowa, and Ohio State.  IMHO, the only one of those in which a loss is plausible is Ohio State.  Their projected losses are road games against Northwestern, Wisconsin, Penn State, and Maryland.  I believe that Michigan has about a 50/50 chance to win each of the first three.  Michigan should be in, but they do not have a lot of margin for error.  

Penn State 5-6:
Penn State's various rankings (RPI, BPI, etc) are atrocious.  I am only including them here because  if they somehow managed to put everything together and finish on a seven game winning streak they'd be at least a bubble team heading to NYC.  The problem is that anything less than that would probably relegate them to "need to win BTT" territory.  They absolutely have to win their next three (vsIA, vsUMD, @IL).  If they do that, then it will at least be interesting when hey head into a week where they host the Buckeyes (who will likely be looking for revenge) then travel to West Lafayette.  

Indiana 5-6:
Like Penn State, the Hoosiers various rankings are atrocious.  However, they have remaining home games against the Spartans and Buckeyes so finishing on a seven game winning streak would include some quality wins.  It obviously isn't likely.  The Hoosiers have lost three straight and host the Spartans tomorrow.  If they lose that, they are probably done.  

Northwestern 5-6:
The Wildcats have won three of their last four including upset road wins in Minneapolis and Madison.  They can't let up now.  Much like the Nittany Lions and Hoosiers, they probably need to win out.  They currently have a grand total of ZERO wins over RPI top-100 teams.  Their last seven games include four such games (vsM, vsMSU, Maryland2x).  Winning out would include those four quality wins.  Anything less would be problematic.  

Maryland 4-7:  The good news for the Terrapins is that their only bad loss was at Indiana.  Other than that, the teams they lost to are currently #8(twice), #23, #24(twice), #34, #42, and #51.  The bad news is that the Terrapins only have two wins over RPI top-100 teams and both were way back in mid-November.  Furthermore, one of them was Bucknell which is currently #89 so there is no guarantee that will even hold up.  Their rankings aren't nearly as bad as PSU/IU/NU though so they could get there.  They need to win out.  That isn't impossible.  We actually project them to go 4-3 in their last seven with losses at PSU, at UNL, and at NU.  In theory all of those games and their home games (UW, NU, RU, M) are winnable.  The problem is that, at this point, the Terrapins have no margin for error.  They need to win them all.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 02:39:00 PM
Wow, Kansas loses at home to Oklahoma State, but the big one is Duke losing to St. John's, who is 0-11 in the Big East.  Good for Chris Mullins
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 03, 2018, 04:55:06 PM
To help solidify the excuse machine, it was reported that Ceko will not be playing for quite some time, due to a "bruised heel".

Great news for Wisconsin fans. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 03, 2018, 05:24:18 PM
I'ma going to say Minney let one slip away in Ann Arbor today. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 03, 2018, 05:35:27 PM
Purdue having trouble. 8:22 to go and Purdue is up only 55-52.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 08:59:56 PM
Need to keep IU off the line.  If not for FTs, I'm not sure they'd have double digits at the half.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 09:22:55 PM
Need to keep IU off the line.  If not for FTs, I'm not sure they'd have double digits at the half.
Hoosiers are 6-35 from the floor, but 10-12 from the line.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 09:25:38 PM
Need to keep IU off the line.  If not for FTs, I'm not sure they'd have double digits at the half.
Hoosiers are 6-35 from the floor, but 10-12 from the line.
Hoosiers are 6-35 from the floor, but 10-12 from the line.
And they are 60% in Big Ten play.  Joining Rutgers and Michigan as teams who can only hit FTs against us.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 09:43:46 PM
Giving up 19 offensive rebounds in 26 minutes is offensive.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 10:29:42 PM
MSU is too stupid to deserve their talent.  Close call.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 03, 2018, 10:41:31 PM
What a weird day. I'm not surprised by any of the results as far as W's and L's, but PU and MSU winning by a combined total of five points and Michigan needing OT at home, weird.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 11:09:22 PM
Life on the road is rough, but Minnesota showing that much spunk surprised me.  But on a day where Duke, Kansas and Kentucky lost, I'm not going to complain.

MSU better figure out how to get on the boards though.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on February 04, 2018, 01:32:53 PM
Kam Williams is suspended, and the Bucks in a tight contest with Illinois
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 04, 2018, 02:13:26 PM
6 fouls, first 4 minutes of the second half.... 

Nothing to see here. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on February 04, 2018, 02:17:08 PM
Bucks survive behind 35 points and 13 rebounds from Keita Bates-Diop
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 04, 2018, 02:20:16 PM
Bucks survive behind 35 points and 13 rebounds from Keita Bates-Diop
Had to lock up Big Ten POTY today, if there was any remaining doubt.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 04, 2018, 02:21:04 PM
6 fouls, first 4 minutes of the second half....

Nothing to see here.
shade your eyes
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 04, 2018, 02:24:01 PM
Ohio State continued this weekend's trend of the B1G's better teams struggling with, but ultimately beating lesser opponents. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 04, 2018, 03:09:08 PM
6 fouls, first 4 minutes of the second half....

Nothing to see here.
This is the thing about complaining about fouls, the one thing you see is always the one thing that gets you irked. Were there some fouls down the stretch I feel weren't called? Probably. Could I point out UW only got to the damn line 11 times? Yep. 
But I don't. Because the only thing it does is limit my enjoyment of a game. You root for a team that's not very good. I root for one that's worse, but player real hard today. Life is what it is. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 04, 2018, 03:16:03 PM
Wisconsin didn't have time to go for 2 there, but Maryland almost bailed him out by not letting him have it
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 04, 2018, 03:32:13 PM
Wisconsin didn't have time to go for 2 there, but Maryland almost bailed him out by not letting him have it
Yeah, this UW team is WAY too young for its own good. Davison will be awesome, but have to know better.
I wonder if the emphasis on quick 2s and extending the game sometimes is too much. If you need a 3, sometimes just get the damn 3.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 04, 2018, 03:33:28 PM
Yeah, this UW team is WAY too young for its own good. Davison will be awesome, but have to know better.
I wonder if the emphasis on quick 2s and extending the game sometimes is too much. If you need a 3, sometimes just get the damn 3.
Yeah, usually college kids mess it up the other way, launching ill advised threes way too early.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 04, 2018, 03:59:05 PM
Ohio State continued this weekend's trend of the B1G's better teams struggling with, but ultimately beating lesser opponents.
More of the same in the Maryland/Wisconsin game.
I find it odd that we had so many close calls this weekend and no upsets.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 05, 2018, 11:17:16 AM
In Lunardi's latest Bracketology PU, MSU, and tOSU are still 1, 2, and 4 seeds respectively.  Michigan is up to a 7-seed.  Nebraska is now among the "First Four Out", and Maryland is back among the "Next Four Out".  

Our bubble and bubble-ish teams have some interesting games this week:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 05, 2018, 11:26:34 AM
Nobody would have predicted this in the pre-season, but Wednesday's game in West Lafayette between the Boilermakers and Buckeyes is the game of the year in the B1G.  I suppose an argument could be made for Saturday's PU/MSU game in East Lansing but if the Boilermakers win on Wednesday they'll be at least two games ahead of everybody which would relegate the Spartans to not much more than a spoiler role attempting to spoil Purdue's perfect B1G regular season.  If the Buckeyes manage to pull off the upset in West Lafayette, however, then the Spartans will be playing to potentially create a 3-way tie atop the B1G standings.  

Interesting that this game is on BTN.  

Frankly, I'd be shocked if the Buckeyes pulled off the upset.  I think that Purdue is the better team and the game is on their floor so I just don't see it.  That said, both teams looked like crap this weekend.  Purdue hasn't looked great since running Iowa off the court in Iowa City a few weeks ago but they've managed to keep winning.  The Buckeyes haven't looked good lately either.  They barely held off Illinois at home on Sunday, ran out to a 15 point lead early against Indiana then played even with the Hoosiers at home for 30 minutes last week, lost to PSU at home prior to that, and barely beat Nebraska at home prior to that.  

It seems like both teams might be due for a good night but I think the only way the Buckeyes win is if they have that good night and Purdue continues in their funk.  If both teams play well, Purdue wins a good game.  If both teams play poorly, Purdue wins a crappy game.  If Purdue plays well and Ohio State does not, it will get ugly.  If Ohio State plays well and Purdue does not, upset.  That is how I see it anyway.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 05, 2018, 11:45:13 AM
"but their OOC isn't as good as Maryland's"

What are phrases I didn't expect to hear in 2018, Alex. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 05, 2018, 11:51:45 AM
"but their OOC isn't as good as Maryland's"

What are phrases I didn't expect to hear in 2018, Alex.
FWIW, I meant in terms of record not SoS.  According to the worldwide leader Maryland's non-conf SoS ranks #197 but Indiana's is almost as bad at #193.  The difference, and the reason that I said Indiana's wasn't as good is that IU went 7-5 while Maryland went 11-2.  Furthermore, Maryland's OOC losses were both to decent teams and not at home (St. Bonaventure-neutral, @Cuse).  Indiana's OOC losses included ISU and FtWayne both at home.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 05, 2018, 12:10:29 PM
Interesting that this game is on BTN.  
Annoying that this game is on BTN. A game this big should have been somehow pulled back up onto ESPN.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 05, 2018, 02:26:26 PM
Big week for Purdue.

In games against IU, Maryland, and Rutgers, Purdue has looked increasingly mortal. Offensively Purdue has been unable to keep up its red-hot 3pt shooting, and defensively, teams are learning that the Boilers' weakness is getting the bigs out of the paint. 

Now, we're unsure entirely of what has caused the malaise seen by the team. We know that PJ Thompson battled an illness, causing him to leave one game to go puke in the locker room. We know Vincent Edwards has battled the flu as well, and his last two games have shown it. On top of that, Rutgers was a prototypical "trap game", with the team perhaps caught looking ahead to this week. Did the team play down to its opponent? This sort of a senior-dominated squad would IMHO be less prone to that than a team full of youngsters. Is the team just getting rattled by the pressure of being EXPECTED to win, and keep winning? Maybe they're getting into their own heads?

So questions going into the week:


This is the toughest week of the season, and the difference between 2-0, 1-1, and 0-2 probably carries a LOT of weight not only for Purdue's chance to win their 24th B1G championship, but for their seed line in March. Purdue is fighting for a 1 seed, but 0-2 might leave them with work to do in NY to retain that 1.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on February 05, 2018, 02:45:06 PM
 We know Vincent Edwards has battled the flu as well, and his last two games have shown it. 
Edwards was 0-13 in the past three games from 3-pt land (0-6 against IU, 0-3 against Maryland, and 0-4 against Rutgers).  If he shoots his typical 40 to 50%, the IU game goes from a 74-67 grind to a 80-67 blowout.  The Maryland game goes from 75-67 to an 78-67 victory, and the Rutgers game goes from 78-76 to a more comfortable 84-76.  They were fairly open shots too, from what I recall.  I suspect his shot will improve once he is back to top condition.  Hopefully he gets there by Wednesday.
Hoping that we didn't peak a month early.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 05, 2018, 02:56:21 PM
I agree completely.  I said upthread that I think it is unlikely that the Buckeyes will pull the upset but I want to flesh out the possibility that you mentioned that Purdue could go 0-2 this week:
Assuming that Ohio State and Michigan State each with their other game this week (MSU is at Iowa, tOSU hosts the Hawkeyes) then after the weekend the top of the B1G standings would look like this:
One problem that would create for Purdue vis-a-vis the #1 seed is that I think the weakness of the conference overall this year makes it extremely unlikely that the B1G would get two #1 seeds.  After that hypothetical week all three teams would be in the mix for a #1 seed but, as I just stated, I would assume that the B1G can't get more than one so essentially the three teams would be playing for (at most) one spot.  

As I said, I don't think that is going to happen (besides, I think the Buckeyes will also lose in Ann Arbor) but in the event that the Buckeyes, Spartans, and Boilermakers all finish 16-2 or better I think that there is a pretty good chance that prize for winning the BTT at MSG in NYC will be a #1 seed and everybody else will fall below that.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on February 05, 2018, 05:07:34 PM
Kinda depends.  You can't look at that situation in a vacuum.

If Purdue wins the OSU game and loses a close game to MSU on Saturday, I could see MSU and Purdue switching places in the polls.  From there, if Purdue and MSU win out until the BTT championship game, it might very well depend upon Xavier and Cincinnati.  I kinda suspect that Kansas and Duke have another loss or two in them.  If Xavier and Cincinnati drop a game or two also during that time period, it's very possible that both MSU and Purdue could end up with 1 seeds.

I'd have to look it up to be sure, but I think I saw a stat that said that in the last three weeks, Villanova, Virginia, and Purdue are 18-0 and the rest of the top 10 (teams 4 through 10) are 21-19.  Point being, there is still a lot of volatility out there.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 05, 2018, 05:26:09 PM
Kinda depends.  You can't look at that situation in a vacuum.

If Purdue wins the OSU game and loses a close game to MSU on Saturday, I could see MSU and Purdue switching places in the polls.  From there, if Purdue and MSU win out until the BTT championship game, it might very well depend upon Xavier and Cincinnati.  I kinda suspect that Kansas and Duke have another loss or two in them.  If Xavier and Cincinnati drop a game or two also during that time period, it's very possible that both MSU and Purdue could end up with 1 seeds.

I'd have to look it up to be sure, but I think I saw a stat that said that in the last three weeks, Villanova, Virginia, and Purdue are 18-0 and the rest of the top 10 (teams 4 through 10) are 21-19.  Point being, there is still a lot of volatility out there.
Well I did say "extremely unlikely", not "impossible".  I did that because I get what you are saying and I do recognize that it is possible.  I just think that the Committee would be understandably hesitant to give half of the #1 seeds to teams from a conference that frankly isn't very good this year.  I think, therefore, that in order for that to happen the committee's alternatives are going to have to be pretty weak by comparison.  Ie, if it is close between a second B1G team and some other team, I think the other team will get it.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 05, 2018, 05:54:48 PM
I just think that the Committee would be understandably hesitant to give half of the #1 seeds to teams from a conference that frankly isn't very good this year.
The CFP committee did it.
Just because the conference sucked doesn't mean the top couple do.  I would think here they'd be more likely to, simply because the difference in consequences between #4 and #5 is a hell of a lot less than it is in football.
I actually think the MSU basketball/Alabama football comparison as far as committee goes is pretty similar.  Neither is likely to win a conference title.  Both pass the eye test with flying colors at their best, but both wound up with a schedule which (not for lack of scheduling) wound up less impressive due to FSU football and ND/UConn basketball not being what they typically are.  So you wind up with an underwhelming resume due to lack of great opponents.  Both were not aided by conference scheduling.  Alabama had Tennessee and Vandy as their crossover games 9worst two teams in the East), and MSU wound up with single plays against Purdue, OSU, UM and Nebraska.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 05, 2018, 06:02:13 PM
Updated composite computer poll, 31 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Villanova (1)
2.Virginia (2)
3.PURDUE (3)
4.Duke (4)
5.MICHIGAN STATE (6)
6.Cincinnati (7)
7.Kansas (5)
8.Xavier (8)
9.Auburn (9)
10.Tennessee (12)
11.Texas Tech (11)
12.North Carolina (10)
13.Gonzaga (16)
14.West Virginia (13)
15.Clemson (14)
16.OHIO STATE (17)
17.Saint Mary's (22)
18.Arizona (18)
19.Oklahoma (15)
20.Creighton (24)
21.Kentucky (20)
22.Wichita State (19)
23.MICHIGAN (-)
24.Seton Hall (-)
25.Rhode Island (25)
-
42.Maryland (47)
55.Penn State (68)
59.Nebraska (61)
71.Northwestern (77)
80.Minnesota (76)
89.Indiana (84)
97.Illinois (114)
103.Iowa (111)
104.Wisconsin (96)
139.Rutgers (137)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 05, 2018, 06:22:00 PM
Hey, I'm just hoping that Purdue will go 2-0 this week rendering the discussion a moot point by Saturday evening.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 06, 2018, 09:45:56 AM
Edwards was 0-13 in the past three games from 3-pt land (0-6 against IU, 0-3 against Maryland, and 0-4 against Rutgers).  If he shoots his typical 40 to 50%, the IU game goes from a 74-67 grind to a 80-67 blowout.  The Maryland game goes from 75-67 to an 78-67 victory, and the Rutgers game goes from 78-76 to a more comfortable 84-76.  They were fairly open shots too, from what I recall.  I suspect his shot will improve once he is back to top condition.  Hopefully he gets there by Wednesday.
Hoping that we didn't peak a month early.
This could be a new way to pick winners.  Sum the average PPG for each roster and compare the results.  Or maybe even sum each player's max PPG, or min PPG, etc.  

Or the homer version -- use the max PPG for fav team and min PPG for the enemy...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 06, 2018, 10:40:12 AM
Per the tiers Indiana's win at Rutgers was an upset so Indiana is now at +2 (won at MN, won at RU).  I don't *feel* like they should move up to tier-3, but maybe . . .  There are five potential games in which their is a difference between tier-3 and tier-4, home games against the two tier-2 teams (tOSU, UNL) and road games against the three tier-5 teams (RU, IA, ILL).  Of those:

So the Hoosiers are 1-1 with two to play and another upset (the win at MN would be an upset either way).  I don't think we should move them up yet, but I would consider them to be on a watch list for a promotion.  

With the IU upset of Rutgers the new projections are:

The match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 06, 2018, 10:57:36 AM
Two huge games for NCAA hopes tonight.

Michigan looks fine right now (projected 7-seed in Lunardi's latest projection) but they finish with a difficult stretch of four road games and just two home games.  We project them to win the home games (vs IA, vs tOSU) and lose the road games (@NU, @UW, @PSU, @UMD).  A 2-4 finish for a 10-8/21-10 final record would put Michigan's tournament hopes in jeopardy.  It would really help the Wolverines if they could steal a road win or two.  They should have a decent chance in some of the road games and that starts tonight.  Michigan is favored over Northwestern by a slim margin.  

On the other side of the coin, Northwestern has won three of their last four and this is a game they probably can't afford to lose if they are going to have any chance for an at-large bid.  

Nebraska has won three in a row and five of their last six to move from complete afterthought to Lunardi's "First Four Out".  They also have a decent chance to win out with four of their last six at home.  They are at Minnesota tonight and the Gophers are favored by a slim margin.  Winning this game would really help the Cornhuskers.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 06, 2018, 12:42:58 PM
ESPN debut of the Bubble Watch today

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22256337/bubble-watch-returns-competition-places-acc-sec

Eamonn Brennan was part of the firings, so they have a new guy doing it, and my main takeaway is that the new layout is horrible.  Reading the comments, seems like most people can't get beyond that either.

Anyway, they have Purdue and MSU as locks, OSU as "should be in", Michigan, Maryland and Nebraska as "work to do" with no other mentions
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 06, 2018, 12:48:39 PM
ESPN debut of the Bubble Watch today

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22256337/bubble-watch-returns-competition-places-acc-sec

Eamonn Brennan was part of the firings, so they have a new guy doing it, and my main takeaway is that the new layout is horrible.  Reading the comments, seems like most people can't get beyond that either.

Anyway, they have Purdue and MSU as locks, OSU as "should be in", Michigan, Maryland and Nebraska as "work to do" with no other mentions
Terps are on the NIT Bubble!

edit: Actually, I misread that page.  Those are NCAA bubble teams.  Not sure why they don't list bubble teams in their NIT seedings.  Seems odd.

http://www.nycbuckets.com/current-nit-bracketology/
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 06, 2018, 12:55:10 PM
Terps are on the NIT Bubble!

edit: Actually, I misread that page.  Those are NCAA bubble teams.  Not sure why they don't list bubble teams in their NIT seedings.  Seems odd.

http://www.nycbuckets.com/current-nit-bracketology/

I think they are using the working assumption that for now, those teams are in the tourney.  I don't see anywhere where they list the bracket they are using for making that assumption though.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 06, 2018, 02:09:09 PM
They are also doing a 32 team 3 vs. 3 tourney at the Final 4, with 4 man teams representing each conference.  Any senior with no eligibility remaining, who isn't in the Final 4, is eligible.

Trying to pick a Big Ten team...

Keita-Bates Diop, Ohio State
Vincent Edwards, Purdue
Nate Mason, Minnesota
Bryant McIntosh, Northwestern

Alternates assuming OSU or Purdue is in a Final 4
Dakota Mathias, Purdue (if OSU is)
Jae'Sean Tate, Ohio State (If Purdue is)
Scottie Lindsey, Northwestern (if PU and OSU are)
Robert Johnson, Indiana (if PU and OSU are)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 06, 2018, 05:01:37 PM
I usually check standings on the Worldwide leader's site and I found this interesting:

At the far right they list streaks.  During conference play ordinarily roughly half of the conference is on a winning streak and roughly half is on a losing streak.  Oddly, right now the nine B1G teams with seven or less losses are all on winning streaks while the five with nine or more losses are all on losing streaks.  

Thus, there hasn't been much change to the bubble situation lately because the teams with some iota of a chance have all won lately.  That will start changing tonight.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 06, 2018, 05:06:22 PM
They are also doing a 32 team 3 vs. 3 tourney at the Final 4, with 4 man teams representing each conference.  Any senior with no eligibility remaining, who isn't in the Final 4, is eligible.

Trying to pick a Big Ten team...

Keita-Bates Diop, Ohio State
Vincent Edwards, Purdue
Nate Mason, Minnesota
Bryant McIntosh, Northwestern

Alternates assuming OSU or Purdue is in a Final 4
Dakota Mathias, Purdue (if OSU is)
Jae'Sean Tate, Ohio State (If Purdue is)
Scottie Lindsey, Northwestern (if PU and OSU are)
Robert Johnson, Indiana (if PU and OSU are)
Should add I doubt high major conference players likely to be drafted will play, because the money you could win won't be nearly worth what you could lose with an injury.  So it's possible KBD skips it.  I don't think any of those other guys are projected draftees.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 06, 2018, 05:19:21 PM
They are also doing a 32 team 3 vs. 3 tourney at the Final 4, with 4 man teams representing each conference.  Any senior with no eligibility remaining, who isn't in the Final 4, is eligible.

Trying to pick a Big Ten team...

Keita-Bates Diop, Ohio State
Vincent Edwards, Purdue
Nate Mason, Minnesota
Bryant McIntosh, Northwestern

Alternates assuming OSU or Purdue is in a Final 4
Dakota Mathias, Purdue (if OSU is)
Jae'Sean Tate, Ohio State (If Purdue is)
Scottie Lindsey, Northwestern (if PU and OSU are)
Robert Johnson, Indiana (if PU and OSU are)
Is this a real thing? That would be cool.
(Who is "they"?)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 06, 2018, 05:46:24 PM
Is this a real thing? That would be cool.
(Who is "they"?)
Yes.  I believe the NCAA is doing it, with money for participants.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 06, 2018, 05:49:18 PM
Yes.  I believe the NCAA is doing it, with money for participants.
Shut The Door. NCAA is paying college athletes? I just saw pig flying, and Hitler just texted me saying it's getting chilly in the after life.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 06, 2018, 05:49:51 PM
Shut The Door. NCAA is paying college athletes? I just saw pig flying, and Hitler just texted me saying it's getting chilly in the after life.
That's why it's only open to seniors whose playing career is done.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 06, 2018, 11:14:56 PM
Michigan State continued the trend of the top B1G teams barely beating lesser opponents.

The wise guys who set lines predicted the Michigan would win at Northwestern and that Minnesota would beat Nebraska at home. Our tier system got it right, predicting the Wildcats and Cornhuskers to win! Go us!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 07, 2018, 11:25:31 AM
Apparently the committee is changing how they are treating RPI now.

Instead of record vs. Top 50, records vs. Top 100, etc.., they are breaking into quadrants and looking at your record in each quadrant...

Quadrant 1: Home 1-30, Neutral 1-50, Road 1-75
Quadrant 2: Home 31-75, Neutral 51-100, Road 76-135
Quadrant 3: Home 76-160, Neutral 101-200, Road 136-240
Quadrant 4: Home 160+, Neutral 201+, Road 241+
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 07, 2018, 02:06:33 PM
Apparently the committee is changing how they are treating RPI now.

Instead of record vs. Top 50, records vs. Top 100, etc.., they are breaking into quadrants and looking at your record in each quadrant...

Quadrant 1: Home 1-30, Neutral 1-50, Road 1-75
Quadrant 2: Home 31-75, Neutral 51-100, Road 76-135
Quadrant 3: Home 76-160, Neutral 101-200, Road 136-240
Quadrant 4: Home 160+, Neutral 201+, Road 241+
I think that's smart. HFA [as we've discussed here] is huge in NCAABB, so it makes perfect sense to treat it as such.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 07, 2018, 02:24:33 PM
I think that's smart. HFA [as we've discussed here] is huge in NCAABB, so it makes perfect sense to treat it as such.
I like it too.  It is a little complicated to follow because the standings sites do not seem to have caught up to it yet so they aren't showing records this way but if you spend a little time at it, you can figure it out.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 07, 2018, 02:26:48 PM
Gameday for the B1G game of the year is here!  

As a Buckeye fan I'm obviously hoping for the upset and I'm pretty sure I'm joined by all the Spartan fans.  If Purdue wins tonight they are almost assured of at least a share of the B1G title.  Even dropping to "only" a share would take a very unlikely series of events.  If the Buckeyes win the B1G title race suddenly becomes very interesting with the Spartans, Buckeyes, and Boilermakers all very much alive.  

Go Bucks!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 07, 2018, 02:45:43 PM
The B1G's "other" game today is pretty big as well.  Maryland is 5-7/16-9 and on the bubble (next four out according to Lunardi).  Unfortunately for the Terps, Bucknell lost at Lehigh the other day which snapped Bucknell's 10 game winning streak and dropped them out of the top 100 in the RPI.  That further diminished Maryland's already critical shortage of quality wins.  They have a home win over #35 Butler back on November 15 and not much else.  

Right now Maryland has two wins over RPI top-100 teams but if they beat Penn State tonight that will probably drop to only one because the Terps' second RPI-100 win was over #97 Penn State at home on January 2.  I'm assuming that a home loss to the Terps would drop the Nittany Lions out of the top-100.  That sucks for Maryland but it is obviously better than the alternative.  

Maryland's season is the epitome of the "what could have been" season.  Only two of their nine losses were by double digits.  The other seven were:
If they had won the four single-possession games they would be a near lock right now.  If they had won half of them they would be in decent shape.  Instead they are facing near elimination every night.  

Penn State is a little stronger in quality wins with a road win over #21 Ohio State and home wins over #53 Nebraska and #83 Northwestern but they also have two dreadful home losses (to #124 Minnesota and #157 Wisconsin).  With an RPI of 97 the Nittany Lions are, at best, a fringe bubble team, but they will have chances to improve their RPI.  A win over Maryland would obviously help.  On Sunday the Nittany Lions travel to Illinois and a win there would set up a huge week of vstOSU and @Purdue.  I do not think that the Nittany Lions can pull it off, but finishing 12-6 and on a seven game winning streak would put them firmly on the bubble.  They could probably even make the tournament with a loss at Purdue, an 11-7 final record, and a couple of quality wins in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  

Both teams are rapidly running out of time.  The loser tonight will be awfully close to the "need to win BTT" category if they aren't in it.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 07, 2018, 05:57:55 PM
If you want to know what is going on with B1G bubble teams, watch Maryland.  They have six games left.  One is against 2-11 Rutgers, the other five are against:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 07, 2018, 08:15:22 PM
A big write up about Maryland that is meaningless. 

They aren't making the tournament. 

No matter how you slice it.

Any team missing the front court as much as Maryland is, isn't winning many games  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 07, 2018, 09:35:59 PM
Really entertaining 1st half.
I'd say Haas is playing better than Bates-Diop. Buckeyes fortunate to only be down 2.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 07, 2018, 10:32:38 PM
Haas just literally took Tate out of the game. Slammed into him from behind at the foul line, hit him so hard he flew, and slide all the way into camera men. With Tate "knocked out" Purdue executed the 5 on 4 perfectly for an uncontested 3. 

And the ref watched the hole thing, whistle swallowed.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on February 07, 2018, 10:48:00 PM
BUCKEYES
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 07, 2018, 10:48:20 PM
O M Goodness!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 07, 2018, 11:08:26 PM
Grr. Now Purdue needs a win on the road against MSU  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 07, 2018, 11:13:20 PM
Loving this:

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 07, 2018, 11:15:27 PM
So wow, that was a really good game. 

As always we can nit-pick the refs, the only grievous error I saw was Haas violently taking out Tate with the Ref watching how far Tate was gonna slid past him into the camera men.

Speaking of Haas, he is an awesome talent. Just watching him get whatever he wanted inside, and if help came over to defend, he found the open sharpshooter licking his chops on the outside. I like his game. Alot. Truly a man among boys.

Carson Edwards had an amazing game. Frankly, I'm not sure how OSU scratched and clawed their way back into the game watching him hit those "Big Mo" 3 pointers.

Purdue is no doubt in the mind the best team in the conference. And this scramble tip-in win was definitely an upset by the Bucks. I see Purdue going far come March.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on February 07, 2018, 11:16:04 PM
that was a game of inches bounces.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 07, 2018, 11:18:43 PM
Grr. Now Purdue needs a win on the road against MSU  
Or not 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 08, 2018, 12:21:29 AM
Wow, that's surprising.  Maybe he could teach the football program how you win a COTY award.   >:(
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 08, 2018, 09:09:44 AM
Haas just literally took Tate out of the game. Slammed into him from behind at the foul line, hit him so hard he flew, and slide all the way into camera men. With Tate "knocked out" Purdue executed the 5 on 4 perfectly for an uncontested 3.

And the ref watched the hole thing, whistle swallowed.
What, this box out?
https://twitter.com/BuckeyeVideos/status/961441640173981696
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 08, 2018, 09:30:08 AM
Well that was unexpected. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 08, 2018, 09:30:29 AM
Yup that one.

I don't think I'm being bias am I? That's a foul. I don't think Haas was playing dirty or trying to hurt Tate, I just think his eyes were up, and he lumbered into a much smaller Tate, sending him sprawling.

From this clip I can't tell where the refs eyes are during the foul, but in the reply during the game you can watch the ref turn his head and follow Tate's slide to the camera man. I inner monologued for the ref "So how far are you going to slide Mr. Tate, I'll call a foul if you make to the fans. Aww, the camera man stopped you. Play On!"

Tate didn't get up from the play, he laid out of bounds grabbing his lower back. After Purdue drained the 3 the refs called injury timeout, and we see Tate still on the ground, and then the trainers helping off the court where they continue to work on his lower back. In my head, I actually called the game there, I didn't think Bates-Diop could do it all on his own. (And he didn't, the bench was awesome, and Tate came back in on the next play stoppage.)

Sidebar: Tate is a very emotional payer, did he not get the call cause the refs thought is was gamemenship on Tate's part and not a foul?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 08, 2018, 09:44:23 AM
Wow, that's surprising.  Maybe he could teach the football program how you win a COTY award.   >:(
LoL!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 08, 2018, 10:11:53 AM
Ohio State's win in West Lafayette was obviously an upset and it changes the projected #1 seed along with creating a 3-team race for the B1G Championship.  

Of the top three teams, after this weekend the Buckeyes clearly have the toughest remaining schedule.  Here are the top three teams, their records, and their remaining games:

Mathematically the Cornhuskers, Wolverines, Nittany Lions, and Wildcats are still in the race but as a practical matter the Buckeyes, Boilermakers, and Spartans are not all going to tank so it is between those three.  

New projected final standings/BTT seeds:
Match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 08, 2018, 10:31:21 AM
What would have to happen for the Wildcats to win it? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 08, 2018, 10:44:07 AM
What would have to happen for the Wildcats to win it?
I think you just like seeing if I can figure this stuff out.  
Then you would have a four, five, six, or seven way tie at 12-6 between the Buckeyes, Boilermakers, Spartans, Wildcats and possibly the Cornhuskers, and/or the Wolverines, and/or the Nittany Lions.  

There are no mathematical impossibilities in there.  All of those things are theoretically possible.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 08, 2018, 10:52:37 AM
Until last night I believed that the biggest gap was between the top-2 (MSU/PU) and #3 Ohio State.  I have now changed my mind on that for two reasons:

Therefore, I now believe that the #1 seed in the BTT is a pretty big deal.  Whichever of the top-3 teams gets it will avoid the other two until at least the B1GCG on Sunday.  Furthermore, it is reasonably likely that the 2-seed and the 3-seed will play each other on Saturday while the 1-seed has a comparatively much easier game against the 4, 5, 12, or 13 seed.  

I do not think it is terribly likely that the Buckeyes could beat either the Boilermakers or the Spartans in the BTT at MSG in NYC but the best potential set-up for the Buckeyes would be to get the #1 seed and play the PU/MSU winner in the B1GCG.  Then, as a Buckeye fan, I'd basically be hoping for an epic 2OT heavyweight bout between MSU/PU on Saturday (in the later slot no less) such that the eventual winner was just completely gassed heading into the B1GCG against the comparatively well rested Buckeyes who would have both an easier game on Saturday and a couple extra hours of rest.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 08, 2018, 01:24:55 PM
Penn State has one last gasp to make something of a tournament case.  Winning over Maryland last night was step one.  Not sure they have to win out, but can't lose @ILL for sure.  PSU plays three ranked teams to end the season (@PU, OSU and M) and a very strong Nebraska team so there are chances to make a case.  The utterly anemic non conference is going to really hurt them along with some losses @IU and home to Minne - missed opportunities.  

I very small possibility of PSU making the Dance is likely contingent on Penn State winning out (MAYBE could survive a loss to M or OSU, but the win at PU is necessary to show a very strong road win) as well as a good showing at MSG.

I predicted NIT for this team this year and I think that's where they will end up.  I can live with that.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 08, 2018, 03:16:40 PM
Penn State has one last gasp to make something of a tournament case.  Winning over Maryland last night was step one.  Not sure they have to win out, but can't lose @ILL for sure.  PSU plays three ranked teams to end the season (@PU, OSU and M) and a very strong Nebraska team so there are chances to make a case.  The utterly anemic non conference is going to really hurt them along with some losses @IU and home to Minne - missed opportunities.  

I very small possibility of PSU making the Dance is likely contingent on Penn State winning out (MAYBE could survive a loss to M or OSU, but the win at PU is necessary to show a very strong road win) as well as a good showing at MSG.

I predicted NIT for this team this year and I think that's where they will end up.  I can live with that.  
IMHO:
If PSU wins out they'd be a bubble team.  They would head to the BTT at MSG in NYC at 12-6/22-9.  That is a pretty good record but they would still have three bad losses dragging them down (@IU, vMN, vUW).  Their remaining schedule with RPI:
If they are going to lose one of the five, I disagree with you.  I think they would be better off losing at Purdue because that is more forgivable but it is probably irrelevant.  

One thing helping Penn State is that they have won four of their last five so if they finish 11-7 or 12-6 they will have won eight or nine of their last 10.  

Their major problem, like all of the B1G bubble teams is a critical lack of quality wins.  Penn State has a great win in Columbus and . . . crickets.  Per the worldwide leader, top 100 RPI wins:
Even at 12-6 I believe that Penn State would have some work to do in NYC.  If they lose one and finish 11-7 I think they'll need an absolute minimum of one big quality win (ie, MSU, PU, or tOSU) in NYC.  If they finish 10-8 then they would most likely need to win the BTT but a B1GCG loss to one of the top-3 along with wins over the other two might do it.  Obviously 9-9 or worse and they would need to win the BTT.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 08, 2018, 03:46:55 PM
No movement in the latest Bracketology from the 5 Big Ten teams, even with UM losing, and OSU upsetting PU.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 08, 2018, 09:09:08 PM
What, this box out?
https://twitter.com/BuckeyeVideos/status/961441640173981696
He does it a lot and never gets called. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 09, 2018, 11:15:23 AM
He does it a lot and never gets called.
Maybe it's the refs swallowing their whistles evenly since they seem to allow people to hack the crap out of him and excuse the other team because they just think he's big enough to absorb the abuse.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 09, 2018, 04:34:55 PM
For this weekend I am one of the biggest Spartan fans you will ever meet.  

Go Green!

Go White!  

Beat the Boilermakers!  

(If you haven't already figured this out, Purdue and Michigan State both have substantially easier schedules than Ohio State after this weekend so I do not think the Buckeyes have much of a chance at a B1G Title unless they get out of this weekend with a lead.  In order for that to happen the Buckeyes need to avoid the hangover game against Iowa and MSU needs to beat Purdue in East Lansing.)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on February 10, 2018, 04:34:37 PM
MSU not doubling Haas, so should see a lot of him
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 10, 2018, 05:38:07 PM
Is there any human being more annoying than Dick Vitale? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 10, 2018, 05:48:13 PM
Are they chanting, "Let's go Blue", or, "Let's go Duke"?

Oh, it's, "M-S-U". 

Hard to tell through the TV. 

;)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on February 10, 2018, 05:58:01 PM
Heck of a game
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 10, 2018, 08:17:53 PM
First place on Feb 10. 

Hooda thunkit
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 11, 2018, 07:57:37 AM
Mathematically the Wolverines and Cornhuskers are still in the B1G Championship race but as a practical matter it is between Ohio State, Purdue, and Michigan State.  

The set-up we have is as good as you could ask for as a fan.  The Buckeyes are a game up but they have a tougher schedule than the Spartans or Boilermakers so I see it as completely up in the air.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 11, 2018, 09:07:18 AM
Go Bucky!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 11, 2018, 12:12:43 PM
Is there any human being more annoying than Dick Vitale?
Considering you seemingly wind up with one of two asshats in Vitale and Dakich every time you wind up on ESPN, I wish every MSU games was on CBS, FOX, FS1 or BTN.  I think Crispin is a major rising star.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on February 11, 2018, 04:16:28 PM
At least Michigan played well for 2/3 of the game today instead of just the first minutes I witnessed in person at Northwestern. I still don't understand how the team gets so complacent with a lead, but hopefully they're learning. Of course, giving Watson and Davis at all is asking for trouble. Even with Livers' injury, they shouldn't be on the floor.

Fortunately, the easiest game left is next - Iowa at home, before 3 challenging but winnable games against Ohio State, at Penn State, at Maryland, and whoever they draw in the BTT. With at least 3 more wins before the NCAA tournament, they should be able to stay ranked between 20 and 30 to get a 6 or 7 seed.... Maybe they'll be able to finish strong like last year, but the in-game inconsistency and bad FT shooting makes that unlikely.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 11, 2018, 05:07:52 PM
It appears as though Penn St and Northwestern have been mathematically eliminated,

The Wolverines are done with one more M loss/OSU win. 

Nebraska's Big Ten Title hopes can technically still withstand another loss, but they badly need the three teams ahead of them to simultaneously tank, down the stretch. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 11, 2018, 05:53:13 PM
On paper, MSU shouldn't lose another.  But Minnesota, Northwestern and Wisconsin have more talent than they've shown.  That road stretch looked killer preseason, playing the preseason 3, 4 and 5 teams, all on the road, in an 11 day span.  I'm nervous one plays up to expectations and nips us.  MSU has been the definition of playing to the level of their competition level recently, with 3 straight 3 point wins, over various levels of competition. (Indiana, Iowa, Purdue)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 12, 2018, 07:31:13 AM
On paper, MSU shouldn't lose another.  But Minnesota, Northwestern and Wisconsin have more talent than they've shown.  That road stretch looked killer preseason, playing the preseason 3, 4 and 5 teams, all on the road, in an 11 day span.  I'm nervous one plays up to expectations and nips us.  MSU has been the definition of playing to the level of their competition level recently, with 3 straight 3 point wins, over various levels of competition. (Indiana, Iowa, Purdue)
A quick heads up: Wisconsin does not. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 12, 2018, 08:01:42 AM
It appears as though Penn St and Northwestern have been mathematically eliminated,

The Wolverines are done with one more M loss/OSU win.

Nebraska's Big Ten Title hopes can technically still withstand another loss, but they badly need the three teams ahead of them to simultaneously tank, down the stretch.
The other big mathematical elimination that happened this weekend is that Wisconsin's Wisconsin's amazing run of top-4 finishes officially ended.  It was pretty clear a long time ago that it was going to end but going into the weekend they still could theoretically have finished 9-9 and tied Nebraska for fourth place.  Now the best they can mathematically do is 8-10 and tied with PSU for sixth.  
You are right as far as the B1G Championship.  It is wide open between tOSU, MSU, and PU.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 12, 2018, 08:05:37 AM
Michigan's win at Wisconsin was an "upset" per the tiers so that changes the seeds a bit.  

Note that Iowa now projects not to have to play on Wednesday.  With the H2H tiebreaker over UW they would get the 10 seed and play #7 on Thursday.  

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 12, 2018, 08:20:03 AM
Here is the run to the finish for the B1G Championship contenders:
Team/GameToughest2nd Toughest2nd EasiestEasiest
Ohio Stateat Michiganat Indianaat Penn Statevs Rutgers
Michigan Stateat Northwesternat Minnesotaat Wisconsinvs Illinois
Purdueat Wisconsinat Illinoisvs Penn Statevs Minnesota
I do not think anyone will disagree with me that Ohio State has the toughest finish.  
Vis-a-vis the #1 seed in the BTT at MSG in NYC:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 12, 2018, 11:06:02 AM
Go Bucks! Beat PSU!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 12, 2018, 11:13:39 AM
A quick heads up: Wisconsin does not.
Agree 100 percent.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 12, 2018, 11:58:08 AM
Considering you seemingly wind up with one of two asshats in Vitale and Dakich every time you wind up on ESPN, I wish every MSU games was on CBS, FOX, FS1 or BTN.  I think Crispin is a major rising star.
Dakich doesn't have that bombastic tone of Vitale. And I feel like he actually brings a little bit more basketball knowledge to his player analysis whereas Vitale just likes to yell about how great the stars are. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 12, 2018, 12:02:32 PM
Agree 100 percent.
don't worry
the "other" Big Red will fill in this season as a top 4
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 12, 2018, 12:07:34 PM
Here is the run to the finish for the B1G Championship contenders:
  
Team/GameToughest2nd Toughest2nd EasiestEasiest
Ohio Stateat Michiganat Indianaat Penn Statevs Rutgers
Michigan Stateat Northwesternat Minnesotaat Wisconsinvs Illinois
Purdueat Wisconsinat Illinoisvs Penn Statevs Minnesota
I do not think anyone will disagree with me that Ohio State has the toughest finish.  
Vis-a-vis the #1 seed in the BTT at MSG in NYC:
  • Ohio State has the toughest remaining schedule but they also have a one game lead and they win all ties.  
  • Michigan State has the second toughest schedule, wins a tie with PU, but loses a tie with tOSU.  
  • Purdue has the easiest schedule but they lose a tie with either the Buckeyes or the Spartans.  

If Purdue doesn't get out of their funk, I could see them dropping the @Illinois or vPSU games. 
It feels for Purdue like that 2nd half of the Michigan was them firing their whole wad. They haven't been the same since. They struggled in the Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers games, and then seemed to start strong against OSU and MSU but fade late in the games. They had a double-digit lead over OSU with 10 to play and lost, and seemed to control the flow of the game against MSU for 30+ minutes but lost. Their 3pt shooting has been MIA since the Michigan game (31.6% against MSU? Not going to win like that).
Even worse, it seems like in addition to trending down offensively, their defense has suffered. I think part of this is by opponent design, trying to spread the floor as much as possible to negate the paint presence of Haas/Haarms. But Purdue was top 5 in defensive efficiency prior to the 2nd Michigan game, and they've dropped to 13th. They had been as low as 16th I think after the Maryland/Rutgers game, so maybe they're trending back in the right direction, and held both MSU and OSU under 70, but still they don't look like they did a month ago.
The team of a month ago should blow out every remaining team on the schedule. The team of the last 5 games will be lucky to escape that run 4-0. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 12, 2018, 12:12:53 PM
FWIW:

Ohio State has clinched a top-4 seed and double-bye in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  The math:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 12, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
If Purdue doesn't get out of their funk, I could see them dropping the @Illinois or vPSU games.
It feels for Purdue like that 2nd half of the Michigan was them firing their whole wad. They haven't been the same since. They struggled in the Indiana, Maryland, and Rutgers games, and then seemed to start strong against OSU and MSU but fade late in the games. They had a double-digit lead over OSU with 10 to play and lost, and seemed to control the flow of the game against MSU for 30+ minutes but lost. Their 3pt shooting has been MIA since the Michigan game (31.6% against MSU? Not going to win like that).
Even worse, it seems like in addition to trending down offensively, their defense has suffered. I think part of this is by opponent design, trying to spread the floor as much as possible to negate the paint presence of Haas/Haarms. But Purdue was top 5 in defensive efficiency prior to the 2nd Michigan game, and they've dropped to 13th. They had been as low as 16th I think after the Maryland/Rutgers game, so maybe they're trending back in the right direction, and held both MSU and OSU under 70, but still they don't look like they did a month ago.
The team of a month ago should blow out every remaining team on the schedule. The team of the last 5 games will be lucky to escape that run 4-0.
I wouldn't read too much into their shooting Saturday afternoon.  MSU sold out against the three point shooters, and was willing to let Haas have whatever he wanted inside.  As good a day as he had, he really needed to be better to force MSU to come out of that defense.  He had 25 points, but on 22 shots, and only had 5 rebounds and 1 block, with 2 turnovers.  His 54% from the field was in worst in Big Ten play when he had more than 5 attempts.  So that equals 24 possessions that ended with the ball in Haas' hands, and Purdue averaged 1.04 PPP on those.  That's about 0.12 PPP below their average.  May not sound like much, but Purdue is 5th in the nation in PPP, and 1.04 would be good for #123.  It's rare that Purdue's offense is LESS efficient when it ends in Haas.  For comparison, on Wednesday he scored only 18, but scored 1.2 PPP on possessions ending with him, actually above their season average.  So while he had a big day, he was taking 2s, not 3s, and not shooting at anywhere near his typical efficiency.
That said, as I've mentioned here many times, I'm not sure I can think of a team in a long time with as much interior depth as MSU has.  They rotated Jackson, Ward, Schilling, Tillman and Goins all on him, fresh defensive bodies just cycling in, and most teams cannot do that.  Anyone else tries that, they'll get in foul trouble, or they'll get just as tired as he does.  Or it'll render them useless offensively.  I came out of that game MORE confident in Purdue's ability to make a run.  I think what Painter might try to do is buy Haas one additional rest period, I think that would have gone a long way.  The first time he went Haas on the bench for an extended period, MSU abused Haarms, and I think it scared him off, but Haarms did much better the second time.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 12, 2018, 02:32:52 PM
I wouldn't read too much into their shooting Saturday afternoon.  MSU sold out against the three point shooters, and was willing to let Haas have whatever he wanted inside.  As good a day as he had, he really needed to be better to force MSU to come out of that defense.  He had 25 points, but on 22 shots, and only had 5 rebounds and 1 block, with 2 turnovers.  His 54% from the field was in worst in Big Ten play when he had more than 5 attempts.  So that equals 24 possessions that ended with the ball in Haas' hands, and Purdue averaged 1.04 PPP on those.  That's about 0.12 PPP below their average.  May not sound like much, but Purdue is 5th in the nation in PPP, and 1.04 would be good for #123.  It's rare that Purdue's offense is LESS efficient when it ends in Haas.  For comparison, on Wednesday he scored only 18, but scored 1.2 PPP on possessions ending with him, actually above their season average.  So while he had a big day, he was taking 2s, not 3s, and not shooting at anywhere near his typical efficiency.
I would agree. I'm not sure if it was MSU's defense, or Haas just not fighting for position, but one thing I noticed is that he was consistently kept off the low block. He was setting up in the high post more often than not.
Haas is basically unstoppable (>60%) if he gets the ball on the low block. He did pretty well to still shoot 54% from the high post, and as the game wore on--and MSU proved they weren't going to double him--he started backing his man down off the dribble. But he is not as effective in the high post. Especially given the massive weight difference between Haas and the MSU defenders, I don't understand why he wasn't forcing his way down low.
That said, I honestly think it's more than just MSU's defense on the Purdue 3pt shooters. This has been a 5-game malaise. The whole team has stopped shooting at the level they're capable of, even with a lot of open looks. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 12, 2018, 07:50:13 PM
I would agree. I'm not sure if it was MSU's defense, or Haas just not fighting for position, but one thing I noticed is that he was consistently kept off the low block. He was setting up in the high post more often than not.
Haas is basically unstoppable (>60%) if he gets the ball on the low block. He did pretty well to still shoot 54% from the high post, and as the game wore on--and MSU proved they weren't going to double him--he started backing his man down off the dribble. But he is not as effective in the high post. Especially given the massive weight difference between Haas and the MSU defenders, I don't understand why he wasn't forcing his way down low.
That said, I honestly think it's more than just MSU's defense on the Purdue 3pt shooters. This has been a 5-game malaise. The whole team has stopped shooting at the level they're capable of, even with a lot of open looks.
Question: Is Hass that good a post player?
I get that he's effective, but I don't know how much is post skill and how much is ability to either bully the small or score in the tip-in/rebound game. And I ask this because it strikes me the first is more prone to being fed, while the second is more about game flow. Not that I don't think he's a good post, but I don't have a read on if he's the kind you just dump it down to. 
(Perhaps this difference is just academic. I look forward to UW defenders fouling him as they hold on for dear life)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 12, 2018, 08:08:44 PM
I think his post moves were better than anyone MSU has faced so far anywhere near that size.  As pointed out he needs to work harder on battling for position.  Maybe he's so used to overwhelming guys, he wasn't used to having to fight for that position, and didn't know how to.  But he wasn't a rebound/tip in guy.  In fact quite the opposite, I was very underwhelmed by his ineffectiveness on the glass.  What he did, once he got the ball, I was very impressed with, the only defense was to force him out before he got the feed.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 13, 2018, 10:11:28 AM
Updated Bubble Watch sees OSU join MSU and Purdue as Locks; UM upgraded to Should Be In and Nebraska remains Work Left To Do.  No PSU appearance yet.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 13, 2018, 10:16:40 AM
big game for the Huskers tonight

if they want to dance
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 13, 2018, 11:17:18 AM
big game for the Huskers tonight

if they want to dance
Huge game for both teams tonight.  According to the Worldwide Leader, Nebraska:
Maryland:

Nebraska has a much better record (10-4/19-8 vs 6-8/17-10) but they have also played a much easier schedule both in the league and OOC.  

Both teams desperately need quality wins and this is the best remaining opponent for Nebraska and the second best for Maryland.  I would say that the winner tonight becomes the most likely fifth tournament team for the B1G and the loser will have a LOT of work to do.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 13, 2018, 12:06:57 PM
Oh yeah. 

All Maryland has to do is win tonight, win their remaining games, and the B1G tournament, all with 3 major contributors out with injuries, and they'll be in.

Got it. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 13, 2018, 12:22:37 PM
Huge game for both teams tonight.  
One other thing about Nebraska and Maryland that could have an impact:
Nebraska has won five straight and seven of their last nine with the lone loss being a very forgivable close loss in Columbus.  If they win out they'll head into the BTT at MSG in NYC on a nine game winning streak and having won 11 of their last 12.  
Maryland won their last game and two of their last three.  If they win out they'll head into the BTT at MSG in NYC on a five game winning streak and having won six of their last seven.  
I think the committee talks more about "last 12" rather than "last 10" now.  That is, of course, complicated by the fact that these two teams could play one, two, three, or four games in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  
In Nebraska's case, if they win out, they will be guaranteed to be no worse than 10-2 in their "last 12".  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 13, 2018, 12:29:00 PM
Oh yeah.

All Maryland has to do is win tonight, win their remaining games, and the B1G tournament, all with 3 major contributors out with injuries, and they'll be in.

Got it.
It is a reach and I wouldn't bet on it, but it isn't THAT big of a reach.  Maryland isn't THAT far out right now.  Up until the Penn State loss they were listed in Lunardi's "next four out".  A win at Nebraska tonight would get them close to where they were before the Penn State loss.  The home game against Rutgers should not be a problem.  The last two (@NU, vsM) seem close to toss-ups to me.  If they won all four they would finish 10-8/21-10.  I ran that through RPI Wizard (which was difficult because I couldn't find Maryland - Apparently they are unaware that Maryland is no longer in the ACC).  Anyway, I got an expected RPI of #39 out of that.  That is at least on the bubble so they wouldn't need to win the BTT at MSG in NYC.  I think they would need a win or two to feel comfortable, but they wouldn't need a B1G Championship.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 13, 2018, 12:48:47 PM
Question for the group:

What do you think Ohio State's seed "ceiling" is?  

I ran RPI Wizard for the Buckeyes winning out including wins in the BTT over:
That is pretty much the best-case-scenario for Ohio State.  At that point they would be 29-5, Outright B1G Champions, and B1G Tournament Champions.  RPI Wizard says they'd have a #6 RPI with a #24 SoS.  

NOTE:  I'm NOT saying I think that will happen or even that there is more than a token chance of that happening, I'm just trying to figure out what the best-case-scenario is for the Buckeyes.  Is that a 1-seed?  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 13, 2018, 01:18:17 PM
Question: Is Hass that good a post player?
I get that he's effective, but I don't know how much is post skill and how much is ability to either bully the small or score in the tip-in/rebound game. And I ask this because it strikes me the first is more prone to being fed, while the second is more about game flow. Not that I don't think he's a good post, but I don't have a read on if he's the kind you just dump it down to.
(Perhaps this difference is just academic. I look forward to UW defenders fouling him as they hold on for dear life)
He's a phenomenal post player. Having watched Purdue heavily over the last 4 years, he's really put together a great skill set in the post. 
As I've said, if he gets the ball on the low block, it's over. If he's single-covered, that ball is going in the basket. [He's shooting about 62% on the year]. He can turn either direction, he's got a lot of spin moves, and is good with the little hook shot with either hand. And it's not just "bullying a smaller center". He plays fine against other big guys. 
If you decide double him, he's become very good at feeling the pressure and understanding the offense, so he's going to pass out to an open shooter. And Purdue's got a lot of those.
That wasn't true a few years ago. He was hesitant in the post, had a tendency to bring the ball down before making his move, and didn't have good ability to pass out of the double-team. So he was responsible for an incredible amount of turnovers. But he's cleaned up that part of his game.
As I mentioned earlier, he's got deficits. MSU kept him off the low block on Saturday, forcing him to play from the high post. He still did alright (shot 54%), but it's not his ideal game. Any time prior to this year, the idea that he was going to back someone down off the dribble was basically a recipe for a turnover. So I was happy to see that not be the case Saturday, but it's not his comfort zone and his efficiency showed it. He's actually not that good of a rebounder, which is surprising for someone who is 7'2", so yeah, the rebound/tip-in isn't where he's creating his stats. And defensively he's a liability. He can defend traditional centers, but he doesn't have the lateral quickness to defend an athletic center, and is useless away from the basket against a stretch 5 like Wagner. 
But offensively, he's an amazingly efficient post player. He's got all the moves, and as I said, unless you're able to force him off the low block like MSU did [and which would likely have resulted in a lot more fouls called on another court], you either are letting him score or doubling him and letting a shooter have a wide open look. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 13, 2018, 02:57:50 PM
Haas basically gets the Shaq treatment from the officials because they don't know how to call him.  He gets fouled more often with no calls than anyone in the league, but also gets away with more fouls that aren't called than anyone in the league.

It's more or less the refs acknowledging that if they called it straight up Purdue would be in the double bonus by the first TV timeout of every game...but Haas would have already fouled out too.  So they just call nothing involving him.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on February 13, 2018, 08:03:11 PM
I think we needed Vince to take Goins to the hoop on Saturday, I understand not driving on Jackson, but think Vince has the advantage with Goins guarding him.  Vince has to get it going again as we will go as he goes.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 13, 2018, 08:09:46 PM
Huerter has done a good job defensively on Palmer.

So,  of course, Huerter swats at the air and picks up a foul and has to sit out early in the second half.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 13, 2018, 08:46:01 PM
Tight game in Lincoln with major NCAA implications for both teams.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on February 13, 2018, 09:01:42 PM
I didn't see a dribble, but I assume I will be informed of some egregious calls, and the like.   I like how Tim Miles called his team a #1 NIT seed.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 13, 2018, 09:08:59 PM
I didn't see a dribble, but I assume I will be informed of some egregious calls, and the like.   I like how Tim Miles called his team a #1 NIT seed.
There were plenty, but just one that mattered. 
1-6 and 2 points for Palmer in the first half. 
A BS air swat against Huerter sits him with 3 fouls to allow Palmer to go on tear.
Is what it is. Maryland is not going to win with the injuries, and especially the refs.
Never going to happen.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on February 13, 2018, 09:17:48 PM
Michigan State is on fire right now
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on February 13, 2018, 09:25:23 PM
Minnesota offense looks bad, bad, bad
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on February 13, 2018, 09:43:33 PM
Kenpom

1. Purdue (4)
2. MSU (6)
3. OSU (12)
4. UM (27)
5. PSU (39)
6. Maryland (40)
7. Nebraska (52)
8. Indiana (75)
9. NW (77)
10. Wisconsin (95)
11. Iowa (96)
12. Minnesota (97)
13. Illinois (113)
14. Rutgers (153)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 13, 2018, 09:57:39 PM
Huerter has done a good job defensively on Palmer.

So,  of course, Huerter swats at the air and picks up a foul and has to sit out early in the second half.
Even as a very young lad I've always thought it unwise to sit players because of foul trouble.  "I'll have him sit for ten minutes to make sure I don't lose him for one minute after the outcome is no longer in question!"
MCW, I concluded a month ago that it just isn't Maryland's year for sports.  It's made it all much more bearable.  Now when the Terps are up at halftime I smile and wait for it.  I think next year the revenue sports teams will be much more enjoyable to watch.  This year they were Samuel Jackson.  Next year, Bruce Willis (an M. Night Shamalama reference).
Just enjoy the spring seasons.  Barring injuries, our teams should be gracing the cover of Obscure Sports Quarterly fairly often...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on February 13, 2018, 10:10:25 PM
Interesting note, Nebraska is 16-1 ATS in last 17.  Doesn't help them get in the tourney. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 13, 2018, 10:49:34 PM
I get they have injuries and suspensions but Minnesota is playing stupid, and you'd think at least the not ready for prime time kids would be all in trying to prove themselves with fake hustle and what not.  Instead they look like they've quit.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 13, 2018, 11:04:35 PM
Two years ago I felt like losing Swanigan to Purdue cost MSU a national title, and while Jaren Jackson didn't flip, he was down to MSU, Purdue and Georgetown in his final 3, and you add him to Purdue, that's terrifying
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 13, 2018, 11:26:32 PM
Barring a BTT Championship, Northwestern is done.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 14, 2018, 10:05:42 AM
Interesting note, Nebraska is 16-1 ATS in last 17.  Doesn't help them get in the tourney.
no respect in vegas
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 14, 2018, 10:09:47 AM
Huerter has done a good job defensively on Palmer.

So,  of course, Huerter swats at the air and picks up a foul and has to sit out early in the second half.
I know one of the refs in the game so I watched the calls closely, didn't think the refs hurt the Terps as much as MArk Turgeon's father sitting behind the bench rooting for the Big Red Huskers
Huerter was the best player on the floor last night, but I don't think anyone was going to shutdown Palmer in the 2nd half.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 14, 2018, 10:27:26 AM
General observation: I think I'd prefer that the schedule algorithm be changed so that there are no home-only or away-only matchups anymore.  I know that would mean some teams don't match up at all during the regular season, which is unbalanced. But it's *already* unbalanced, and I think it's worse as it currently is.

Playing tougher teams away-only and weaker teams home-only to excess can really skew the results.

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 14, 2018, 10:33:50 AM
split the conference into East & West divisions?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 14, 2018, 11:01:03 AM
I get they have injuries and suspensions but Minnesota is playing stupid, and you'd think at least the not ready for prime time kids would be all in trying to prove themselves with fake hustle and what not.  Instead they look like they've quit.
They are worse off than Maryland.
It's not like they had depth to begin with, but they were worse off with their situation.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 14, 2018, 11:04:47 AM
That popping noise you heard last night was Northwestern's last minute chance for an at-large bid dying.  

IMHO:

Locks:

Need to win BTT at MSG in NYC:

So that leaves four teams on the bubble.  (NOTE that I define "the bubble" as inclusively as possible.  Any team that either could possibly get an at-large bid in a best-case-scenario or miss one in a worst-case-scenario is "on the bubble".)

11-4/20-8 Nebraska:  The Cornhuskers' win last night over the Terps helps a lot because Nebraska's biggest problem is a critical shortage of quality wins.  They only have three wins over RPI top-100 teams:
In addition they have a road win over #102 Northwestern that has been and could potentially again be a top-100 win but that is dependent on Northwestern's performance.  

Their remaining regular season games are @ #183 Illinois, vs #108 Indiana, and vs #86 Penn State.  IMHO, a loss in any one of those would be significantly problematic for the Cornhuskers.  Given their lack of quality wins they need all they can get (vs PSU) and a bad loss (ILL/IU) would be seriously damaging.  

We project them to win out and get the #4 seed in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  If they do, they could probably afford a loss to the #5 seed (assuming it is Michigan) but I'm not sure that they could afford a bad loss in NYC.  

9-5/20-7 Michigan:  The Wolverines have two nice OOC wins (vs #52 UCLA, @ #56 Texas) that significantly help their cause.  Even with those two, they only have four top-100 RPI wins:  Those two, vs #62 Maryland, and at #14 Michigan State.  The Wolverines should be fine, but they don't have as much margin for error as it might seem.  They finish with a home game against Iowa tonight then three games that might all be seen as close to toss-ups:  vs #16 Ohio State, @ #86 Penn State, @ #62 Maryland.  If they were to lose all three they would finish 10-8/21-10 and have work to do in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  

8-6/18-9 Penn State:  The Nittany Lions' three game winning streak has kept their bubble hopes alive but now the going gets really tough.  Tomorrow night they host an Ohio State team that will probably have revenge on their minds then Sunday they travel to Purdue.  Even after that things don't let up much with a home game against Michigan then a road trip to Lincoln.  Like most of the B1G's bubble teams the Nittany Lions have a critical shortage of quality wins but they finish the season with four games against teams in the top-53 of the RPI so they will have opportunities to rectify that situation.  The question is:  How many more losses can they afford?  

6-9/17-11 Maryland:  The Terps have so many heartbreaking losses this season it is almost comical.  They lost:
That is eight losses in games decided by two possessions or less.  The more sophisticated computer models like the Terps a lot more than RPI because RPI doesn't look at MoV, just who won.  More sophisticated models do consider MoV and that helps the Terps but it seems like the committee is fixated on RPI and their tier system which is based on RPI.  Still, IMHO if the Terps won out until the B1GCG that would get them a closer look from the committee and that closer look would reveal all those near misses and I think they would get in.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 14, 2018, 11:11:51 AM
General observation: I think I'd prefer that the schedule algorithm be changed so that there are no home-only or away-only matchups anymore.  I know that would mean some teams don't match up at all during the regular season, which is unbalanced. But it's *already* unbalanced, and I think it's worse as it currently is.

Playing tougher teams away-only and weaker teams home-only to excess can really skew the results.
That is an interesting idea that I have never seen thrown out there before.  Usually people want to play everybody twice which is great in theory but it is not practical to have 26 conference games.  
Since we are going to 20 games soon, I assume that in your model each team would play 10 of the other 13 twice each and miss three.  Theoretically you could miss tOSU, MSU, and PU this year and have a really easy schedule or miss IL, RU, and MN and have a really tough schedule but it would be interesting in that at least you wouldn't have the issue of getting most of the top teams on the road.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 14, 2018, 11:27:15 AM

They could always base it on the standings from the previous season, where the top three teams miss the bottom three teams, and what not. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 14, 2018, 11:33:26 AM
They could always base it on the standings from the previous season, where the top three teams miss the bottom three teams, and what not.
I like it.  Kinda' like the NFL's so-called parity schedules.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 14, 2018, 11:43:03 AM
They could always base it on the standings from the previous season, where the top three teams miss the bottom three teams, and what not.
I would be opposed to that because some teams would practically never play.  Since RU and UMD joined:
2015 top-3:
2016 top-3:
2017 top-3:
2015 bottom-3:
2016 bottom-3:
2017 bottom-3:

So Rutgers has been in the bottom three every year with Nebraska two of the three.  

Depending on how you break the ties, Maryland and Wisconsin have been in the top three every year with Purdue and Michigan State two out of three.  

I wouldn't want any two B1G teams to go more than a couple years tops without playing at all.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 14, 2018, 12:05:04 PM
You'd also run into problems due to the fact that 14 isn't divisible by three.

You could always cap it to where you don't miss a program for more than two years (Big Ten Tourney not-withstanding). 

Of course those match ups are likely to be blowouts, so missing them wouldn't be the worst thing.

You'd also have to figure out a way to take the protection of in-state rivalries into account. 

So now we are talking about a complex calculus equation, so it would be best to stick to the "rotation" I suppose. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 14, 2018, 12:31:02 PM
You'd also run into problems due to the fact that 14 isn't divisible by three.

You could always cap it to where you don't miss a program for more than two years (Big Ten Tourney not-withstanding).

Of course those match ups are likely to be blowouts, so missing them wouldn't be the worst thing.

You'd also have to figure out a way to take the protection of in-state rivalries into account.

So now we are talking about a complex calculus equation, so it would be best to stick to the "rotation" I suppose.
I think if you were going to do it it would be best to stick to a rotation and have protected rivals.  
With 14 teams in the league, for each team there are 13 other teams.  Ideally, I think you would want the number of schools that you sometimes miss to be evenly divisible by the number of schools that you miss each year.  Ie, with 20 conference games you would play 10 teams twice each and miss three so I think you would want to have either one protected rival and 12 schools that you miss on a rotation or four protected rivals and nine schools that you miss on a rotation.  
Ex, for Ohio State:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 14, 2018, 12:31:27 PM
I would be opposed to that because some teams would practically never play.  Since RU and UMD joined:
well, in theory, the weakening or strengthening of schedules should help in that regard and get more teams rotated into the top 3 and the bottom 3.
I actually like it.
Gives the bottom three even more incentive to get the top teams to play at their court.
besides, I don't think Spartan fans or players are all that interested in playing Rutgers
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 14, 2018, 12:47:37 PM
If you were going to do it as "parity scheduling" I think you would need a slight adjustment rather than simply the top-3 miss the bottom-3.  

Example (using the idea that Brutus threw out and extrapolating from there):

Slightly adjusted version:

That isn't perfect but it is the basic idea.  It would get really complicated if you tossed in a "can't miss the same team three years in a row" rule.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 14, 2018, 01:07:54 PM
We could always go to divisions, like the Mac or the old CUSA?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 14, 2018, 01:23:45 PM


Slightly adjusted version:
  • misses 11, 13, 14
  • misses 10, 12, 14
  • misses 9, 12, 13
  • misses 8, 11, 14
  • misses 7, 10, 13
  • misses 7, 8, 12
  • misses 5, 6, 10
  • misses 4, 6, 9
  • misses 3, 8, 11
  • misses 2, 5, 7
  • misses 1, 4, 9
  • misses 2, 3, 6
  • misses 1, 3, 5
  • misses 1, 2, 4

That isn't perfect but it is the basic idea.  It would get really complicated if you tossed in a "can't miss the same team three years in a row" rule.  
I had a feeling you'd be able to wrap your brain around that. 
I like it. But I guess we'd have to scrap the protected in-State rivalries. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 14, 2018, 02:10:00 PM
Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, some protected rivalries matter. I think it's absolutely BS that Purdue and Indiana don't play twice *every* year. They've been one-plays several times over the last decade.

The idea that we could have years where we're not even on each other's schedule once is simply unacceptable.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 14, 2018, 02:16:34 PM
Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, some protected rivalries matter. I think it's absolutely BS that Purdue and Indiana don't play twice *every* year. They've been one-plays several times over the last decade.

The idea that we could have years where we're not even on each other's schedule once is simply unacceptable.
"parity scheduling" with the slight adjustment would solve this issue
unless of course one of the two rivals sucked enuff to make the bottom 3 while the other rival stayed in the top 3
from recent history the most likely, Rutgers, Penn St, and Nebraska don't have in-state rivals
problem solved - someone ring Big Jim
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 14, 2018, 03:07:10 PM
Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, some protected rivalries matter. I think it's absolutely BS that Purdue and Indiana don't play twice *every* year. They've been one-plays several times over the last decade.

The idea that we could have years where we're not even on each other's schedule once is simply unacceptable.
Certainly understandable.
There was a year that Michigan and MSU scheduled a "non-Conference" game when they were only scheduled to play once. 
So that's a potential solution. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 14, 2018, 06:06:48 PM
problem solved - someone ring Big Jim
Throw in the fact that you could play Friday nights, or 6 times in 7 days, with one game in NYC in Rucker Park, and you'd REALLY get his attention.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 14, 2018, 06:13:43 PM
Updated composite computer poll.  Forgot to post this yesterday, meaning it does NOT factor in Monday night's results. 61 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Villanova (1)
2.Virginia (2)
3.PURDUE (3)
4.Cincinnati (6)
5.MICHIGAN STATE (5)
6.Duke (4)
7.Xavier (8)
8.Texas Tech (11)
9.Auburn (9)
10.Kansas (7)
11.North Carolina (12)
12.OHIO STATE (16)
13.Gonzaga (13)
14.Tennessee (10)
15.Clemson (15)
16.West Virginia (14)
17.Wichita State (22)
18.Texas A&M (-)
19.Rhode Island (25)
20.Arizona (18)
21.Saint Mary's (17)
22.Creighton (20)
23.TCU (-)
24.Florida (-)
25.Nevada (-)
-
28.Michigan (23)
44.Maryland (42)
48.Penn State (55)
52.Nebraska (59)
73.Northwestern (71)
77.Indiana (89)
97.Minnesota (80)
102.Wisconsin (104)
108.Iowa (103)
118.Illinois (97)
153.Rutgers (139)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 14, 2018, 06:40:02 PM
Throw in the fact that you could play Friday nights, or 6 times in 7 days, with one game in NYC in Rucker Park, and you'd REALLY get his attention.
(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsuptg.thisisnotatrueending.com%2Farchive%2F29299509%2Fimages%2F1388978255938.jpg&hash=1807484576e180612e9abd06a0f95829)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on February 14, 2018, 07:20:50 PM
How does Purdue not drop after losing 2 games?  I was shocked to see they have the #1 seed when the NCAA released their top 16. 

ELA ... loved your comment about 6 games in 7 days would get big Jim on board.  Are we going to have this bs Friday/ Monday crap next year with FS1?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 14, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
How does Purdue not drop after losing 2 games?  I was shocked to see they have the #1 seed when the NCAA released their top 16.

ELA ... loved your comment about 6 games in 7 days would get big Jim on board.  Are we going to have this bs Friday/ Monday crap next year with FS1?
I've noticed that polls/seedings have slowly morphed into power ratings.  If somebody has concluded that Purdue is a #1 seed, the modern tendency seems to be to ignore losses.  That's a big change from most of my fanhood.
I still can't believe Virginia lost on Saturday and yet rose to #1 in the polls on Monday... 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 15, 2018, 11:22:50 AM
Seeds are starting to get clearer for the BTT at MSG in NYC:

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 15, 2018, 12:55:28 PM
» Marc Boehm, NU’s executive associate athletic director, said he has it on pretty good authority that if Nebraska basketball wins its final three games, it will make the NCAA tournament. Boehm, who spoke to the Lincoln Chamber of Commerce on Wednesday, said he spoke to a member of the NCAA selection committee who said three wins at the end of the regular season gives Nebraska a 99 percent chance of making the tournament.

Win two out of those three, Boehm said, and Nebraska’s chances drop to 72 percent.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 15, 2018, 12:59:36 PM
What would have to happen for OSU and Michigan to occupy the same branch of the bracket? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 15, 2018, 01:34:44 PM
you sure do ask a lot of questions and by doing that, keep Medina busy
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 15, 2018, 01:58:12 PM
EAST
1Villanova
16Nicholls/Savannah State
.Pittsburgh
8Florida State
9Houston
.
5Wichita State
12UL Lafayette
.Boise
4West Virginia
13Vermont
.
3Auburn
14UC Santa Barbara
.Dallas
6TCU
11NM State
.
7Butler
10Baylor
.Detroit
2MICHIGAN STATE
15Charleston
.
WEST
1Cincinnati
16Wagner
.Nashville
8Louisville
9Missouri
.
5Arizona
12Kansas State/PENN STATE
.Boise
4Gonzaga
13South Dakota State
.
3North Carolina
14Montana
.Wichita
6Saint Mary's
11Middle Tennessee
.
7Nevada
10Virginia Tech
.Dallas
2Texas Tech
15Canisius
.
SOUTH
1Virginia
16Harvard/Grambling
.Charlotte
8Kentucky
9Seton Hall
.
5Rhode Island
12Loyola(Ill)
.San Diego
4Tennessee
13East Tennessee State
.
3Kansas
14Northern Kentucky
.Wichita
6Florida
11Syracuse
.
7MICHIGAN
10Alabama
.Nashville
2Xavier
15Bucknell
.
MIDWEST
1PURDUE
16UNC Asheville
.Detroit
8Arizona State
9Miami
.
5Texas A&M
12MARYLAND/UCLA
.San Diego
4Clemson
13Buffalo
.
3OHIO STATE
14Belmont
.Pittsburgh
6Creighton
11Texas
.
7Oklahoma
10Arkansas
.Charlotte
2Duke
15Florida Gulf Coast

Trying to see how hard this is to do, just using the composite computer rankings.  Turns out we are in much better tourney shape as a conference, with Maryland and PSU both in Dayton

Look, now I'm a Bracketologist!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 15, 2018, 02:59:27 PM
you sure do ask a lot of questions and by doing that, keep Medina busy
Medina is indeed very generous with his analytical brain. 
I like to help him keep it exercised, and in shape. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 15, 2018, 03:19:34 PM
What would have to happen for OSU and Michigan to occupy the same branch of the bracket?
At this point there are still a whole bunch of possibilities for that, I'll just give you the most likely:

As I mentioned, Ohio State wins all ties so if they do lose two more games they would still get a higher seed than either MSU or PU if either were to lose one game.  More than likely, however, if the Buckeyes do lose two more they'll get the #3 seed.  In that case it would be fairly unlikely for Ohio State and Michigan to be in the same branch because the #3 seed plays the #6 (or the 11/14 winner) but I'm assuming that one of Ohio State's two losses in that case would be at Michigan which makes it even less likely for Michigan to fall to the #6 seed.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 15, 2018, 03:29:05 PM
Thanks Medina. 

Since that scenario doesn't require an OSU loss to Michigan, it is the scenario that I will be pulling for. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 15, 2018, 03:49:18 PM
How does Purdue not drop after losing 2 games?  I was shocked to see they have the #1 seed when the NCAA released their top 16.

ELA ... loved your comment about 6 games in 7 days would get big Jim on board.  Are we going to have this bs Friday/ Monday crap next year with FS1?
Bracket projections are built on resumes. 
Losing to Very good teams won’t hurt that much, and you need four teams to have better resumes. At the moment, they couldn’t find four. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 15, 2018, 03:54:15 PM
I've noticed that polls/seedings have slowly morphed into power ratings.  If somebody has concluded that Purdue is a #1 seed, the modern tendency seems to be to ignore losses.  That's a big change from most of my fanhood.
I still can't believe Virginia lost on Saturday and yet rose to #1 in the polls on Monday...
I think it’s more of a body of work thing. Rankings historically were highly reactionary. That seems to have dropped off. The top-16 release also seemed to have an effect. 
I mean, Purdue had some cushion, they lost a pair of crazy games to top 10 teams. And they fell three AP spots. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 15, 2018, 03:58:04 PM
It would be very bad for Purdue if the lose tonight, but I'm in favor of that scenario. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 15, 2018, 04:20:06 PM
Thanks Medina.

Since that scenario doesn't require an OSU loss to Michigan, it is the scenario that I will be pulling for.
You are welcome.  
Vis-a-vis Michigan's seed:
It would be extremely unlikely for Michigan to move up to the #3 seed.  It is mathematically possible but only if:
Even moving up to the #4 seed is not terribly likely.  The Wolverines are only one game behind #4 Nebraska but they lost in Lincoln in the only meeting of those teams this year so for seeding purposes they are effectively two games behind Nebraska.  Worse, we project Nebraska to win out (@ILL, vsIU, vsPSU) and Michigan cannot overtake them in the seeding order unless they lose at least two games.  

Thus, the 5-seed is more-than-likely Michigan's ceiling.  

Michigan is currently a game-and-a-half ahead of PSU and two games ahead of IU.  They play both teams only once each having already defeated Indiana in Ann Arbor (way back in December) and travelling to Penn State a week from yesterday.  

Since Michigan is two games ahead of the Hoosiers AND would win a tie with them, there is almost no chance of Michigan being seeded behind Indiana (M would have to lose out AND IU would have to win out).  

Northwestern could theoretically tie the Wolverines and they are 1-1 H2H.  The next tiebreaker is record against the best team(s) in the conference, then the next, then the next, etc and if that happened I think that Northwestern would win the tie based on their win over PSU but I'm not sure and it really is irrelevant because for it to happen Northwestern would have to win out AND Michigan would have to lose out.  

I think that Michigan's only realistic competitor for the #5 seed is Penn State.  The Nittany Lions are a game-and-a-half down but the two teams have yet to play and when they do play it will be on Penn State's court.  If Penn State wins that game then they would have the tiebreaker.  Then it would depend largely on what happens in Ohio State's next two games (@PSU, @M).  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on February 15, 2018, 05:09:37 PM
Enjoy:

http://bball.notnothing.net/big10.php?sport=mbb

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 15, 2018, 05:42:50 PM
Tonight's Ohio State at Penn State game is pretty big for seeding purposes for the top teams and for Penn State's rather limited bubble chances.  

Ohio State is one game ahead of the Spartans and Boilermakers in the loss column and wins all ties so the Buckeyes will get the #1 seed unless they lose at least twice.  Their last four games are:
The Buckeyes losing in Ann Arbor wouldn't be a shock but they still get the #1 seed unless they lose another game as well.  That probably isn't going to be a home game against Rutgers on Senior night.  Also, if the Buckeyes win tonight and then win in Ann Arbor they could lock up the #1 seed at home against Rutgers.  

For Penn State this is a chance at a desperately needed quality win.  They have the win in Columbus but other than that they don't have much.  They do have plenty of chances with a stretch run of vstOSU, @PU, vsM, @UNL but they also already have six losses in conference and nine overall.  They can't expect an at-large bid with a sub .500 B1G record and even 9-9 wouldn't get them in without some miracles in NYC.  They probably need to go at least 3-1 over their last four to get anywhere near the bubble before NYC so a loss tonight would mean that they would need to win in both West Lafayette and Lincoln.  

The other game pits teams on opposite ends of the conference standings.  

Purdue needs a win to keep up with the leaders and end their now 2-game losing streak.  The Spartans are 13-2 and after tonight the Buckeyes will either be 14-1 or 13-2.  Purdue needs a win to match MSU and either match or at least stay in range of Ohio State.  

Wisconsin is two games ahead of the bottom four in the loss column.  Thus, they will probably avoid having to play on Wednesday of the BTT anyway but a win tonight would all but assure them of that.  With a loss they will only be one game ahead of MN/RU/IA and they still have MSU and a road game at Northwestern remaining.  It could be a close call.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 15, 2018, 06:51:22 PM
How far in advance does ESPN set its lineup for games? You'd think they would have wanted OSU/PSU over PU/UW tonight, if they had a choice, no?

I guess what I'm saying is that if the lineup was selected a long time ago, they are not getting what they thought they were tonight. It would take a major upset for UW to even stay in the game tonight.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 15, 2018, 08:05:08 PM
How far in advance does ESPN set its lineup for games? You'd think they would have wanted OSU/PSU over PU/UW tonight, if they had a choice, no?

I guess what I'm saying is that if the lineup was selected a long time ago, they are not getting what they thought they were tonight. It would take a major upset for UW to even stay in the game tonight.
I don't even know that there is an order of selection anymore.  But yes, most of the times and tv are set preseason.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 15, 2018, 08:45:59 PM
How far in advance does ESPN set its lineup for games? You'd think they would have wanted OSU/PSU over PU/UW tonight, if they had a choice, no?

I guess what I'm saying is that if the lineup was selected a long time ago, they are not getting what they thought they were tonight. It would take a major upset for UW to even stay in the game tonight.
ESPN is getting a pretty good game
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 15, 2018, 08:47:10 PM
This is like a throwback to circa 2007 and 2008 Big Ten basketball
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 15, 2018, 09:02:16 PM
Well tonight is looking good for MSU, bad for the Big Ten.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 15, 2018, 09:03:39 PM
How far in advance does ESPN set its lineup for games? You'd think they would have wanted OSU/PSU over PU/UW tonight, if they had a choice, no?

I guess what I'm saying is that if the lineup was selected a long time ago, they are not getting what they thought they were tonight. It would take a major upset for UW to even stay in the game tonight.
Dumbass. Hehehe.

I guess Big Frank being there made a difference.

Been a LONG time since I've seen UW students rush the court. I guess it's OK, for this season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 15, 2018, 09:04:35 PM
Corngrats to Bucky

Nice win on welcome back Frank night - ESPN
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 15, 2018, 09:07:54 PM
As I said, three of the last four on the road, against teams with underachieving talent still makes me nervous.  Evanston and Madison are still going to be a bear.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 15, 2018, 09:23:42 PM

Boy, Penn State really has OSU's number this year. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 15, 2018, 09:24:10 PM
Yeesh, PSU lead up to 30 now
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 15, 2018, 09:34:48 PM
Yikes, not a good night for the B1G's top teams (well, except it is good for MSU).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 15, 2018, 09:46:40 PM
What a delightful game. This team still isn't good, but man can they play hard. On Wisconsin. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 15, 2018, 09:48:28 PM
As I said, three of the last four on the road, against teams with underachieving talent still makes me nervous.  Evanston and Madison are still going to be a bear.
Still not apt for Wisconsin.

Tonight would be a case of an overachieving under-talented team. Only had 18 walk-on minutes and rode the starters without mercy. 

I'll also say this, UW is capable of playing HARD. They usually need to, but this was a lot of grit tonight. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 15, 2018, 10:53:41 PM
They aren't typical Wisconsin, but they have more talent than their record.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 15, 2018, 11:37:48 PM
Sounds like this FBI investigation is going to take down a ton of teams.  Seen 100 schools thrown around by Doyle.  My guess is that includes players talking money from shoe companies outside any sort for school knowledge.  I doubt we get 100 smoking guns linking head coaches, or even assistants, or really even players to schools.  I think we might see a ton of kids immediately ineligible.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 16, 2018, 12:48:55 AM
Guess Purdue can kiss a share of the B1G regular season championship goodbye, and without a BTT sweep, probably a #1 seed. Grrr.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 16, 2018, 08:17:31 AM
Sounds like this FBI investigation is going to take down a ton of teams.  Seen 100 schools thrown around by Doyle.  My guess is that includes players talking money from shoe companies outside any sort for school knowledge.  I doubt we get 100 smoking guns linking head coaches, or even assistants, or really even players to schools.  I think we might see a ton of kids immediately ineligible.
I read on Yahoo Sports that timing and how it all trickles out (or is just released) will be key.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 16, 2018, 08:46:28 AM
Let the chips fall
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 16, 2018, 09:16:57 AM
He's a phenomenal post player. Having watched Purdue heavily over the last 4 years, he's really put together a great skill set in the post.
As I've said, if he gets the ball on the low block, it's over. If he's single-covered, that ball is going in the basket. [He's shooting about 62% on the year]. He can turn either direction, he's got a lot of spin moves, and is good with the little hook shot with either hand. And it's not just "bullying a smaller center". He plays fine against other big guys.
If you decide double him, he's become very good at feeling the pressure and understanding the offense, so he's going to pass out to an open shooter. And Purdue's got a lot of those.
That wasn't true a few years ago. He was hesitant in the post, had a tendency to bring the ball down before making his move, and didn't have good ability to pass out of the double-team. So he was responsible for an incredible amount of turnovers. But he's cleaned up that part of his game.
As I mentioned earlier, he's got deficits. MSU kept him off the low block on Saturday, forcing him to play from the high post. He still did alright (shot 54%), but it's not his ideal game. Any time prior to this year, the idea that he was going to back someone down off the dribble was basically a recipe for a turnover. So I was happy to see that not be the case Saturday, but it's not his comfort zone and his efficiency showed it. He's actually not that good of a rebounder, which is surprising for someone who is 7'2", so yeah, the rebound/tip-in isn't where he's creating his stats. And defensively he's a liability. He can defend traditional centers, but he doesn't have the lateral quickness to defend an athletic center, and is useless away from the basket against a stretch 5 like Wagner.
But offensively, he's an amazingly efficient post player. He's got all the moves, and as I said, unless you're able to force him off the low block like MSU did [and which would likely have resulted in a lot more fouls called on another court], you either are letting him score or doubling him and letting a shooter have a wide open look.
Meant to reply to this earlier, but thanks for the nuanced writeup. After reading, I pulled up a couple games and locked in on him. Unsurprisingly, the sense I had was dead wrong. 
I've been watching too much Kaminski/Happ/Kind of Nigel Hayes, often-slithery guys doing a ton with footwork. Haas has that in the tool bag, but his spins and touch are better than I had thought. Nice to see him develop like that. 
(I know, I know, I write this after last night ;))
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 16, 2018, 09:43:10 AM
They aren't typical Wisconsin, but they have more talent than their record.
It's an interesting question actually, and sort of comes down to how you define "talent." Like if if a high three-star we know hasn't and won't develop counts as talent, they might. If we're saying, this team has the ability to reasonably play better than it has for long stretches, probably not. 
This is the rotation at this point, in terms of consistency 
1. Happ - Obviously awesome, but being asked to do waayyyy too much
2. Brad Davison - He's playing better than can be expected, but he's a non-Top-100 recruit being asked to carry the biggest offensive load on the perimeter as a true freshman.
3. Iverson - He's UW's third most consistent player. He's 0-for-23 from 3, he turns the ball over on 23.9 percent of the possessions he uses, and despite having a robust field goal percentage because he takes almost no jump shots, he's got probably 10-plus missed dunks this season. That's the third-most consistent guy.
4. Pritzel - He does some nice things on offense and turns the ball over as little as one of UW's low-usage SGs should. ... But he is still not actually shooting the ball better than 33.1 percent from 3, which is the main thing I need him to do, and has defensive lapses often.
5. Aleem Ford - Tall, standstill shooting, redshirt freshman combo forward who has enough defensive issues he got benched for walk-ons for a whole second half five games ago. 
6. Nate Reuvers - Skinny freshman big who has shown aggressiveness, but not yet honed the finer points of efficiency or not fouling all over the place. Also sometimes moves like a baby deer on defense, but that's improved somewhat. 
7. Walk-on
8. Walk-on

Beyond that, you have a trio of junior bigs who all busted pretty badly. Only one was kind of well-rated (No. 147), and he hasn't been able to carve out a niche of "defend OK guys at multiple spots and hit enough 3s," which is maddening. Two other rotation perimeter guys are on the shelf for the season. At the moment, the third-best guard is a small forward who can't shoot and doesn't have great handles and the center often has to bring the ball up because the shooting guard can't.

That up there isn't the talent to be much better than 12-16, really 8-10 since losing those two rotation guys to injury. Six guys that can play ahead of passive walk-ons, only one of whom is really high-end (Divison will be as a sophomore or junior). It's been a rough year for a reason. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on February 16, 2018, 09:50:47 AM
Sounds like this FBI investigation is going to take down a ton of teams.  Seen 100 schools thrown around by Doyle.  My guess is that includes players talking money from shoe companies outside any sort for school knowledge.  I doubt we get 100 smoking guns linking head coaches, or even assistants, or really even players to schools.  I think we might see a ton of kids immediately ineligible.
Article also suggest 1/2 of the 16 teams that were discussed as the top 4 seeds should be worried...  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 16, 2018, 10:16:46 AM
hey, if 8 of the top 16 teams burn, the Big Ten can add a couple more teams to the dance

;)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 16, 2018, 10:27:29 AM
They aren't typical Wisconsin, but they have more talent than their record.
BaB answered pretty thoroughly above, but this is just not true.

The entire 2015 class is essentially a bust - even 4* Pritzl and 3* Ivarson. Wildly inconsistent and would not be playing as much as they are had King and Trice not gone down early in the season.

2016 was Trice and Ford. Trice (low 3* out for the season) and low 3* Ford is just OK. He's getting better.

2017 brought us 4* Davison, 4* Reuvers and 3* Kobe King (out of season).

Happ was the only 2014 recruit - a 3* kid with offers from UW-Milwaukee and UW-Green Bay.

Bo found one there, but man, did he whiff the following year. Pritzl and Ivarson have a chance to get better for next year, but I'm not holding out much hope.

Davison is a good player. He's also playing with one arm and has all season.

UW needs a really good grad transfer. 

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 16, 2018, 11:06:55 AM
Boy, Penn State really has OSU's number this year.
I really don't get it.  Ohio State has played Iowa and Penn State twice and every other B1G team once each.  Against the 12 B1G teams not named Penn State the Buckeyes are 13-0 with two wins over Iowa and one each over the other 11.  Against Penn State the Buckeyes are 0-2.  For their part, Penn State is 2-0 against Ohio State and 7-6 against everybody else.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 16, 2018, 11:11:09 AM
even though the ball is round

basketball doesn't always make sense

upsets happen
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 16, 2018, 11:28:47 AM
We had a few surprises last night.  The Wisconsin win was an upset (per the tiers).  The Penn State win wasn't, but it still surprised me.  

To review, the tiers (with +/- for upsets):
The upsets so far have been:

DateWon@/vLost
4-DecUW@PSU
6-JanIU@MN
11-JanIA@ILL
13-JanM@MSU
15-JanMN@PSU
23-JanNU@MN
25-JanPSU@tOSU
1-FebNU@UW
5-FebIU@RU
7-FebtOSU@PU
8-FebUW@ILL
11-FebM@UW
15-FebUWvsPU
That yields the following projected final standings and seeds for the BTT at MSG in NYC (now that we are down to 3-4 games left I have added remaining games and projected results for those games):

That would yield the following match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 16, 2018, 11:35:20 AM
even though the ball is round

basketball doesn't always make sense

upsets happen
I get that, I just threw the 13-0 vs 7-6 against the rest of the league in there to make it abundantly clear that Ohio State is a much better team.  In spite of that Penn State has now defeated Ohio State twice and I'm not sure if it is:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 16, 2018, 11:53:45 AM
In the month of February the Badgers have suddenly become the toughest team in the conference to predict.  There have been six upsets (per the tiers) in the month of February and four of them have involved Wisconsin:

Usually at this time of year if a team is involved in a lot of upsets they are either one way or the other, Ie:
Neither is the case with Wisconsin.  Instead they are just randomly and unpredictably winning games they should lose and losing games they should win.  They have played five games in the month of February and only the road loss to Maryland went as we projected.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 16, 2018, 12:08:51 PM
BaB answered pretty thoroughly above, but this is just not true.

The entire 2015 class is essentially a bust - even 4* Pritzl and 3* Ivarson. Wildly inconsistent and would not be playing as much as they are had King and Trice not gone down early in the season.

2016 was Trice and Ford. Trice (low 3* out for the season) and low 3* Ford is just OK. He's getting better.

2017 brought us 4* Davison, 4* Reuvers and 3* Kobe King (out of season).

Happ was the only 2014 recruit - a 3* kid with offers from UW-Milwaukee and UW-Green Bay.

Bo found one there, but man, did he whiff the following year. Pritzl and Ivarson have a chance to get better for next year, but I'm not holding out much hope.

Davison is a good player. He's also playing with one arm and has all season.

UW needs a really good grad transfer.


Well, with Wisconsin, I don't really care about stars.  Like I said, they aren't typical Wisconsin, but there is enough there that they should at least be an NIT team.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 16, 2018, 12:12:11 PM
In Lunardi's latest bracketology we still have the same four teams in but there are changes in seed/location and changes with our bubble teams:

Nebraska is now the first team out.  

Penn State is now among the "Next Four Out" and listed second so theoretically they are the sixth team out.  

FWIW:  Penn State has now won six of their last seven including a win over Maryland and two wins over Ohio State.  Additionally, their only loss since mid-January is a "good" loss in East Lansing.  Next they travel to West Lafayette to face a reeling Purdue team that has now lost three straight and hasn't looked like a great team since mid-January.  

On January 20 Purdue was coming off of a ridiculous blowout win at Iowa and looked unstoppable.  We were talking about whether or not they could go 18-0.  That same day Penn State lost at Northwestern.  It was their second straight loss and third in four games with really none of them being "good" losses.  They looked absolutely dead in the water.  

On January 21 I think most of us would have picked PU to win the 2/18 PSU@PU game by 20+.  Now, I'm not so sure.  I wouldn't bet on Penn State but at the same time, I'm hardly confident in Purdue.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 16, 2018, 12:13:11 PM
even though the ball is round

basketball doesn't always make sense

upsets happen
In a week I've gone from "well, unless OSU pulls off a crazy comeback in Mackey, MSU's Big 10 title hopes probably die tonight," to "if UM can win at home over OSU, MSU controls it's own destiny to be sole Big Ten champs, and has room for error now to at least be co-champs."
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 16, 2018, 12:19:13 PM

  • A team with a lot of good wins earlier in the season has declined due to injuries or whatever and is now losing games we don't expect them to lose, or
  • A team with a lot of bad losses earlier in the season has improved due to being young or getting guys back from suspension/injury and is now winning games we don't expect them to win.  

Neither is the case with Wisconsin.   
That's close, but it's also not that simple.

UW started pretty OK, but a monster schedule prevented them from having many wins. 

They played Xavier (lost by 10), Baylor (lost by 5), UCLA (lost by 2) all in a row. Virginia and Marquette were the other losses but those occurred after losing King and Trice.

I think they have improved. Davison and Reuvers are true freshmen, and the latter didn't play until game 6 as he was supposed to take a shirt this year.

What has not improved are the juniors. 

UW will be better next year. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 16, 2018, 12:51:33 PM
I get that, I just threw the 13-0 vs 7-6 against the rest of the league in there to make it abundantly clear that Ohio State is a much better team.  In spite of that Penn State has now defeated Ohio State twice and I'm not sure if it is:
  • A match-up issue:  I don't think so, at least not entirely.  
  • Just dumb luck:  Upsets happen.  
  • Something else?

Maybe there is another explanation that makes sense:
Maybe Penn State has just improved and Ohio State was just unlucky enough to get them twice late in the season. On January 20 Penn State lost their second straight, third in four, and fourth in six, and fifth in eight and just looked awful. Since then they are 6-1 with the only loss being a reasonably close (8 points) "good" loss in East Lansing. The six wins have included the two against Ohio State, a win over Maryland, and blowout wins over RU, IA, and IL. Even if you ignore the two PSU/tOSU games and just look at the other five of Penn State's last seven games they still look easily like a tournament team over that stretch.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on February 16, 2018, 02:14:06 PM
Did Purdue peak too early?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 16, 2018, 02:21:37 PM


Well, I won't call OSU's first loss dumb luck, because PSU had a good lead late in the game, 
BUT, tony carr didn't call glass with less than 3 seconds left from just inside the half court line
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 16, 2018, 02:25:09 PM
In Lunardi's latest bracketology we still have the same four teams in but there are changes in seed/location and changes with our bubble teams:
  • 2-seed Purdue (down from a 1-seed), still projecting in the Midwest and opening up in Detroit
  • 3-seed Michigan State, in the East and opening up in Pittsburgh
  • 4-seed Ohio State now in the South and opening up in Boise
  • 7-seed Michigan (down from a 6-seed), now in the West and opening up in wichita

Nebraska is now the first team out.  

Penn State is now among the "Next Four Out" and listed second so theoretically they are the sixth team out.  

FWIW:  Penn State has now won six of their last seven including a win over Maryland and two wins over Ohio State.  Additionally, their only loss since mid-January is a "good" loss in East Lansing.  Next they travel to West Lafayette to face a reeling Purdue team that has now lost three straight and hasn't looked like a great team since mid-January.  

On January 20 Purdue was coming off of a ridiculous blowout win at Iowa and looked unstoppable.  We were talking about whether or not they could go 18-0.  That same day Penn State lost at Northwestern.  It was their second straight loss and third in four games with really none of them being "good" losses.  They looked absolutely dead in the water.  

On January 21 I think most of us would have picked PU to win the 2/18 PSU@PU game by 20+.  Now, I'm not so sure.  I wouldn't bet on Penn State but at the same time, I'm hardly confident in Purdue.  
I think my Nits are an awfully confident and dangerous bunch right now.  They MUST get the Michigan game at home and win either at Purdue or UNL, then win minimum two in the tourney (get to the semis).  Expect MSG to have a blue and white tint to it if this team comes in that hot.
If for some strange reason PSU wins out in the regular season (unlikely), I think two wins at MSG puts them in solidly.  Their last 10 record would totally trump the bad losses to Minnesota and Rider at home and some other missed opportunitities.
RPI's gotta get up tho.  Jumped up 12 with the win last night to 75, but it must be in the low 50's AT WORST to be considered, and I'm not sure how they get it into the 40's at this point without a bit of help. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 16, 2018, 03:16:50 PM
I think my Nits are an awfully confident and dangerous bunch right now.  They MUST get the Michigan game at home and win either at Purdue or UNL, then win minimum two in the tourney (get to the semis).  Expect MSG to have a blue and white tint to it if this team comes in that hot.
If for some strange reason PSU wins out in the regular season (unlikely), I think two wins at MSG puts them in solidly.  Their last 10 record would totally trump the bad losses to Minnesota and Rider at home and some other missed opportunitities.
RPI's gotta get up tho.  Jumped up 12 with the win last night to 75, but it must be in the low 50's AT WORST to be considered, and I'm not sure how they get it into the 40's at this point without a bit of help.
FWIW:  Penn State will *PROBABLY* be playing on Thursday in the BTT at MSG in NYC, but that is NOT a lock yet.  Right now they are in sixth place at 9-6, one game behind Michigan, two games behind Nebraska, and three games behind Purdue.  Penn State has a chance to move up in part because their last three games are against the three teams immediately ahead of them in the standings.  Furthermore, Penn State plays Michigan and Purdue only once each (upcoming) and they already beat Nebraska.  Thus, Penn State would win the tiebreaker in a tie with Purdue and/or Nebraska.  They would also win a tie with Michigan unless the tie was at 11-7 with Penn State losing to Michigan but winning their other two remaining games and Michigan beating Penn State but losing their other two remaining games.  
If Penn State wins out they WILL be seeded ahead of Michigan.  Then they would only need either one additional Nebraska loss or two additional Purdue losses to get the #4 seed and a double-bye.  
I think this matters somewhat because when we talk about how many wins Penn State needs in the BTT I think that depends on how strong the opponents are.  As a #5 or #6 seed the first game would be against one of the worst four teams in the B1G so that wouldn't help much.  However, as the #4 seed the first game could be against a fellow bubble team in the #5 seed (either Michigan or Nebraska or it could theoretically even be against an obvious lock - Purdue).  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 17, 2018, 02:52:02 PM
NW games are unbearable. 

That shrieking woman needs to be escorted out. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on February 17, 2018, 04:47:18 PM
Before today if you asked me who the worst coach was in the Big Ten, Chris Collins would have been the 1st or 2nd I mentioned.  That JOKE of a 2nd half clinched it. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 17, 2018, 07:52:17 PM
NW games are unbearable.

That shrieking woman needs to be escorted out.
Can't. 
That's Elaine 
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OldHighlevelHogget-max-1mb.gif)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 17, 2018, 08:20:46 PM
Before today if you asked me who the worst coach was in the Big Ten, Chris Collins would have been the 1st or 2nd I mentioned.  That JOKE of a 2nd half clinched it.  
Iowa?

Chris is OK. He's living on his experience with Dook and his pappy's coattails. 

Truth be told, I'm hard pressed to name a former Dook assistant that was really good. I'll also state plainly that his old man was overrated for a long time.

Good announcer though.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 17, 2018, 09:22:08 PM
46-14 runs generally help.  Holy hell.  Thought we were about to contribute to the crazy weekend.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 17, 2018, 10:52:15 PM


He's living on his experience with Dook and his pappy's coattails.

like the Gooopher's coach
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 18, 2018, 01:36:32 AM
Can't.
That's Elaine
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OldHighlevelHogget-max-1mb.gif)
Please tell me that's not true. 
I know her son was on the team, but surely she isn't trying to attract that much attention. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 18, 2018, 10:50:03 AM
Yep, it's her, Louis-Doofus. She's an NU alum too...

(https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpeopledotcom.files.wordpress.com%2F2017%2F03%2Fjulia-louis-dreyfus1.jpg%3Fw%3D2000&w=1600&q=70)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on February 18, 2018, 03:02:07 PM
Bucks getting great looks and missing everything
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on February 18, 2018, 03:04:54 PM
Iowa?

Chris is OK. He's living on his experience with Dook and his pappy's coattails.

Truth be told, I'm hard pressed to name a former Dook assistant that was really good. I'll also state plainly that his old man was overrated for a long time.

Good announcer though.
Fran and he were the 2.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on February 18, 2018, 03:11:03 PM
I am still furious about Purdue's loss vs OSU (just get 1 of 3 damn rebounds in the last 20 sec, among about 30 other strange things that happened) or just close a freaking game out at Wisc when up 39-32, and they are still tied for the Big Ten title.

MSU tried to gift Purdue back yesterday, but it wasn't happening and I can't see any possible way they lost either of their final 2.  As someone who treasures conference titles in the most historic conference, man does this burn after that sweet as hell 12-0 start.

Now I say all of this and PSU will clock them tonight given the way both are playing.  I just got gifted a pair of sweet tix, row 9 in the LOWER level, from my fraternity brother's Dad.  Even given the foul mood Purdue fans are in, hopefully we bring it tonight.  The team needs it to get out of this scary shooting funk (sans Carsen Edwards.)  Even after throwing away the conference, we still have a potential 1 seed to play for.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on February 18, 2018, 07:00:45 PM
Vince Edwards out tonight. Ankle 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 18, 2018, 11:33:17 PM
Today likely sealed Nebraska.  PSU is playing really well, and would be a tourney team, if they had played like this all along, but they probably need to win both this week and then certainly at least get to Saturday to perhaps play their way in.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 19, 2018, 09:13:11 AM
Ya, I think PSU's only hope now is to win out and get to the tourney finals.  Man did they ever miss a chance last night.  Would have been nice if Mike Watkins would have, you know, played a bit.  

I get why he was in at the end there, but man if there was one guy on the entire squad you didn't want taking those free throws, it was Mike Watkins.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 19, 2018, 09:45:54 AM

For the first time all season I'm dreading Medina's Monday Morning Breakdown of the most likely scenarios. 

No way the Spartans drop one of these final two. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on February 19, 2018, 12:00:31 PM
NIT bound, imo.   Can't lose to Illinois this year and expect to make it as a bubble team.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 19, 2018, 05:50:04 PM
I'm really hoping UW can beat Minnie tonight. A win would clinch a higher conference rank for UW than Minnie could possibly attain. Of course, this is important. Finishing higher than Minnie is always a goal - even in a historically down season like this one.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 19, 2018, 08:14:00 PM
Here we go again.

NW players elbowing and tackling Maryland players and nothing.

We breathe on someone and the whistle blows.

F'ing BS

After I say this  they finally get that little shit Lindsey who's been swinging on Cowan all night.

Twice now...finally. 

And then damn if Cowan didn't do it and not get called... SMH

Should have been called on Cowan. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 19, 2018, 11:22:29 PM
I'm really hoping UW can beat Minnie tonight. A win would clinch a higher conference rank for UW than Minnie could possibly attain. Of course, this is important. Finishing higher than Minnie is always a goal - even in a historically down season like this one.
UW did it. Not easy at all, but they did it. 
I don't know that a nice finish means a ton, bit it is still nice. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 20, 2018, 07:02:08 AM
Something to build on for next season. It's great that the kids don't quit. There's really not much more to be said.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on February 20, 2018, 07:09:54 AM
Def must say Wisc did not pack it in this year.  Good to see for the group and like you said something to build to next year after a rough season. 
1 request, that I'm sure another fanbase on here can endorse, any chance they can shoot like 80% in Happ's last game and keep the good mojo going one more time?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 20, 2018, 07:22:44 AM
Happ's last game?

It would be a major mistake for him to try the NBA. He's not there yet.

Now.. that said, I could see a grad transfer (not sure where he stands, but he did redshirt) if he believes he can have a better chance to win elsewhere. There is some help coming for next season. It's all about whether or not he loves where he is playing and loves his teammates.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 20, 2018, 08:51:50 AM
In a week I've gone from "well, unless OSU pulls off a crazy comeback in Mackey, MSU's Big 10 title hopes probably die tonight," to "if UM can win at home over OSU, MSU controls it's own destiny to be sole Big Ten champs, and has room for error now to at least be co-champs."
It is amazing how much the situation improved for the Spartans in not much over a week.  Late in the PU/tOSU game it looked like Purdue would win thus keeping a two-game lead on the Spartans.  Instead, Ohio State won.  Then MSU beat Purdue and for good measure Purdue lost again in their next game all while Ohio State had a two game skid of their own.  Now the Spartans control their own destiny for an outright Championship and their last two games are against:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 20, 2018, 08:53:09 AM
Maybe there is another explanation that makes sense:
Maybe Penn State has just improved and Ohio State was just unlucky enough to get them twice late in the season. On January 20 Penn State lost their second straight, third in four, and fourth in six, and fifth in eight and just looked awful. Since then they are 6-1 with the only loss being a reasonably close (8 points) "good" loss in East Lansing. The six wins have included the two against Ohio State, a win over Maryland, and blowout wins over RU, IA, and IL. Even if you ignore the two PSU/tOSU games and just look at the other five of Penn State's last seven games they still look easily like a tournament team over that stretch.
Penn State very nearly winning in West Lafayette makes this theory seem a lot more plausible.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 20, 2018, 08:57:22 AM
For the first time all season I'm dreading Medina's Monday Morning Breakdown of the most likely scenarios.

No way the Spartans drop one of these final two.
Before I update the tier projections, a few things have been clinched:
The Spartans, Buckeyes, and Boilermakers have clinched the top three seeds in the BTT.  Nebraska and/or Michigan could end up tied with Purdue and/or Ohio State but it wouldn't matter.  Michigan and Nebraska would lose the tiebreakers.  
The race for the final double-bye (#4 seed) is certainly interesting:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 20, 2018, 09:19:56 AM
There were three upsets over the weekend (IU@IA, ILvUNL, UMD@NU) so the projections have changed:
That would result in the following match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:

Note to Brutus:
A match-up between the Buckeyes and Wolverines before the B1GCG is, at this point, unlikely.  Ways that it could happen:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 20, 2018, 09:38:09 AM
Bubble Watch:
Michigan 11-5/22-7:  The Wolverines may have clinched a berth with their win over Ohio State.  Their last two are both quality opponents (#77 PSU and #58 UMD).  Both of their last two games are on the road which is a blessing and a curse.  It is a blessing because losses wouldn't be all that bad but it is a curse because losses aren't all that unlikely.  I frankly think that Michigan would probably get in even if they lost out but it would be close finishing on three-straight losses including a bad loss in the BTT.  I think that Michigan would be safe with one more win.  

Nebraska 11-5/20-9: The Cornhuskers' loss this weekend at Illinois was bad, really bad and potentially fatal.  A bad loss can be overcome, of course, but it takes quality wins to overcome a bad loss and Nebraska has a critical shortage of quality wins.  They are just 3-8 against the RPI top-100 with wins:
and losses:
Their last two are at home against Indiana and a suddenly red hot Penn State.  

Penn State 9-7/19-10:  The Nittany Lions would be in a lot better shape if they could have pulled off the win in West Lafayette.  They still have a chance.  Their last two games are vsM and atUNL so they can pick up two quality wins before the BTT.  Adding those to their home wins over UNL and UMD and their pair of wins over the Buckeyes would put Penn State in decent position heading into the BTT.  

Maryland 8-9/19-11:  The Terps only have one game left (vM) but it would be a quality win if they could get it.  They desperately need it.  As it stands now the Terps only have one win against the top 76 teams in the RPI and that was #39 Butler way back in November. A .500 record in a weak B1G isn't great but to Maryland's credit they had to play MSU, PU, M, PSU, and NU twice each.  This is probably the toughest slate in the B1G.  Obviously 9-9 isn't going to get them in without some wins in NYC, but it will at least get them close enough that it would be possible.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 20, 2018, 09:57:21 AM

So there will definitely be an OSU-Michigan Big Ten Ccg? 

:72:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 20, 2018, 10:40:31 AM
So there will definitely be an OSU-Michigan Big Ten Ccg?

:72:
Sure, assuming that they both win all the necessary qualifying games!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 20, 2018, 10:42:04 AM
When was the last time there was an OSU/UM championship game in any sport?

I remember 2006 football being the de-facto Big Ten championship game but not since, I don't believe.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 20, 2018, 11:28:18 AM
Any sport? 

It probably happened in some obscure sport or another in the not too distant past. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 20, 2018, 01:41:02 PM
Updated composite computer poll.  It does NOT factor in Monday night's results. 62 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Virginia (2)
2.Villanova (1)
3.MICHIGAN STATE (5)
4.Duke (6)
5.PURDUE (3)
6.Cincinnati (4)
7.Xavier (7)
8.North Carolina (11)
9.Kansas (10)
10.Texas Tech (8)
11.Auburn (9)
12.Wichita State (17)
13.Gonzaga (13)
14.West Virginia (16)
15.Tennessee (14)
16.Clemson (15)
17.OHIO STATE (12)
18.Arizona (20)
19.Houston (-)
20.Nevada (25)
21.MICHIGAN (-)
22.Rhode Island (19)
23.TCU (23)
24.Texas A&M (18)
25.Kentucky (-)
-
42.Penn State (48)
50.Maryland (44)
59.Nebraska (52)
71.Indiana (77)
86.Northwestern (73)
93.Wisconsin (102)
103.Minnesota (97)
112.Iowa (108)
113.Illinois (118)
145.Rutgers (153)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 20, 2018, 01:47:27 PM
Weird Senior Night for MSU tonight.

Obviously, first they can clinch a Big Ten title with a win.

But then to the seniors, and kids playing their last game.

You have the seniors.  Tum Tum Nairn and Gavin Schilling, who were major players on an overachieving team 4 years ago that was a Valentine brain fart away from upsetting runner up UW for a BTT title, and then made it all the way to the Final 4.  Now, they are role players at best.

Then grad transfer Ben Carter, who suffered his second torn ACL last year, got a 6th year, re-injured himself, now barely plays.  So he gets a senior day after also getting one last year (before his 6th year petition went through), even though he really only played a little bit in a handful of games over 2 years.

Then you have Bridges and Jackson, who are both off to the NBA, they don't get a Senior Day, but both are clearly playing their last home game.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 20, 2018, 03:03:27 PM
Soo.. Louisville, eh?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on February 20, 2018, 03:26:07 PM
I don't think there's a lot of enthusiasm to cast a stone at Luvl given the state of affairs and the curtain that's about to fall and unmask a significant number of programs.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 20, 2018, 03:45:38 PM
In a way it is silly to do promotions/demotions this late in the season but there are a few that we should probably consider.  

Every team in the conference has now been involved in at least one upset with Maryland and Nebraska having the fewest (one each).  Wisconsin has the most, five but it is three up and two down so they are still at +1.  

Surprisingly, 11 of the league's teams are within +/-1.  The three exceptions are:

Purdue (-2):  The Boilermakers's two upset losses were at home to Ohio State and at Wisconsin.  Both would be upsets even if we 
demoted Purdue so these just fall in the category of "it happens".  

Michigan (+2):  One of Michigan's upsets (@MSU) would be an upset no matter what.  The other (@UW) would not be an upset if we promoted Michigan.  There are six potential games in which there is a difference between tier-2 and tier-3 (home games against the two tier-1 teams and road games against the four tier-4 teams).  Of those:

Indiana (+3):  There are five potential games in which there is a difference between tier-3 and tier-4 (home games against the two tier-2 teams and road games against the three tier-5 teams): Of those:

Michigan should be promoted because they are 1-1 with another upset win.  Indiana should be promoted because they are 2-1 with another upset win.  

The new tiers are (with +/- for upsets):

There are only two teams outside of +/-1.  Northwestern and Wisconsin are both at +2 but I do not believe that either should be promoted.  

New projections based on these updated tiers:
The match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC would be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 20, 2018, 03:57:53 PM
I don't think there's a lot of enthusiasm to cast a stone at Luvl given the state of affairs and the curtain that's about to fall and unmask a significant number of programs.
Could be. I'm not worried about UW though. I mean, if they are cheating, they REALLY suck at it. The sheer number of highly ranked in-state kids who didn't pick state U lately is proof.

I wonder if Diamond Stone's dad is still working for Under Armor.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 20, 2018, 04:09:40 PM
Yeah I feel safe considering how badly Thad's recruiting went down the crapper, but then again Jim 0'Brien was fired for playing a recruit that never even played for OSU. So you never know. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 20, 2018, 04:12:27 PM
I love how Badge and Brutus are offering the "We must not have been cheating because nobody could be this bad at cheating" defense preemptively!  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 20, 2018, 04:21:39 PM

Well less of a defense than a gut feeling, which I qualified by pointing out why my gut feeling is built on a foundation of sand. 

I'd imagine the programs that would be the most itchy would be the ones that have been killing it in recruiting the last few years. Particularly if there is some sort of an Adidas connection. 

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 20, 2018, 04:23:48 PM
The line of top-ranked/elite kids running away from Madison has been maddening. The only one UW got was Dekker. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 20, 2018, 04:24:25 PM
Well less of a defense than a gut feeling, which I qualified by pointing out why my gut feeling is built on a foundation of sand.

I'd imagine the programs that would be the most itchy would be the ones that have been killing it in recruiting the last few years. Particularly if there is some sort of an Adidas connection.


Sand is a great base for construction.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 20, 2018, 04:29:21 PM
Did I say sand? Because I meant quicksand. 

Nobody in the history of the universe is worse at cheating than Jim 0'Brien. But he still did it. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 20, 2018, 06:51:26 PM
Well less of a defense than a gut feeling, which I qualified by pointing out why my gut feeling is built on a foundation of sand.

I'd imagine the programs that would be the most itchy would be the ones that have been killing it in recruiting the last few years. Particularly if there is some sort of an Adidas connection.


Why everyone should feel a little queasy is the question of player/shoe company type deals that didn't even necessarily happen to the benefit of any school, but still would have made that player ineligible.  My guess is that is how the bulk of the schools are going to be "involved".  There might be a lot of cases where the coaches legitimately knew nothing.  I don't think we are going to see a ton of cases like Louisville/Bowen.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 20, 2018, 11:30:38 PM
This conference will never take regular season conference championship championships lightly, but this one has a little less oomph.  Probably somewhat the ESPN article, although that's not really getting much traction, but a lot the blah year for the Big Ten, mixed with MSUs schedule.  Not a lot of big games.  Purdue obviously.  UM, yeah, bit it was a noon game, they lost.  OSU and Nebraska rounded out the top 5 and both were so early (Nebraska was one of the December games) that nobody realized they were big games at the time.  Purdue, and sort of Michigan, are the only games since that early December game against a then top 5 Notre Dame, that had that big game feel.

Team has plenty inside, getting good Winston/Langford is the difference between being a second weekend team and a third weekend team.  I think I'd make them the favorite next weekend in NYC due to depth.  I think Purdue has the better starting 5, but if MSU can seal the top seed, they would get either a Nebraska team they crushed or UM playing a third game in 3 days on Saturday, followed by a title game against a slight fest Purdue-OSU winner.  Those weekend games should be awesome.  The lead up?  Not so much.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 21, 2018, 12:03:48 AM
Purdue has been eliminated from the race for the top seed in the BTT because they would lose a tie with MSU and/or tOSU.  

Michigan State has clinched one of the top two seeds in the BTT (because they would win a tie with Purdue and they can do no worse than a three-way tie for first).  The Spartans get the #1 seed unless they lose their last game (@UW) AND Ohio State wins theirs (@IU).  

Nebraska gets the final double-bye unless:

Seeds:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 21, 2018, 12:10:48 AM
Which is why seeding is so unimportant.  Generally based on scheduling flukes.  Would anyone rather get the 2 seed and face a 7 seed PSU right now than get the 3 and face #6 Indiana?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 21, 2018, 09:14:10 AM
When was the last time there was an OSU/UM championship game in any sport?

I remember 2006 football being the de-facto Big Ten championship game but not since, I don't believe.
Last Spring (2017) OSU defeated Michigan in the CCGs for both Men's and Women's Tennis. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 21, 2018, 09:48:47 AM
It's always good to have something to cling to.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 21, 2018, 09:59:25 AM

Yeah, the Big Ten Ccg win in Football was okay I suppose, but those Tennis Titles were the cat's pajamas. 

Yeesh, that's what I get for digging up the answer to an obscure trivia question that was posed on a message board. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 21, 2018, 10:15:52 AM
Hah!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 21, 2018, 11:24:14 AM
Which is why seeding is so unimportant.  Generally based on scheduling flukes.  Would anyone rather get the 2 seed and face a 7 seed PSU right now than get the 3 and face #6 Indiana?
I wouldn't say "unimportant", just that it isn't necessarily an advantage to be seeded higher.  The IU/PSU example that you used here is a great one.  I was thinking that when I typed up the most recent projections that have #2 Purdue likely facing red hot Penn State on Friday while #3 Ohio State likely gets Indiana.  I would DEFINITELY consider that an advantage for Ohio State.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 21, 2018, 11:31:10 AM
Purdue (-2):  The Boilermakers's two upset losses were at home to Ohio State and at Wisconsin.  Both would be upsets even if we
demoted Purdue so these just fall in the category of "it happens".  

Michigan (+2):  One of Michigan's upsets (@MSU) would be an upset no matter what.  The other (@UW) would not be an upset if we promoted Michigan.  There are six potential games in which there is a difference between tier-2 and tier-3 (home games against the two tier-1 teams and road games against the four tier-4 teams).  Of those:
  • Michigan does not play four (vMSU, vPU, @IU, @MN)
  • Michigan won one (@UW)
  • Michigan lost one (@NU)

Michigan did play vPU, and Purdue won that game. They played home/away and Purdue won both.
If you promote Michigan, that reduces Purdue's variance to -1 (-2 for the losses to OSU/Wisconsin, +1 for @UM). However that would give Michigan an extra -1 on their variance due to the loss vPU.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 21, 2018, 11:35:29 AM
I wouldn't say "unimportant", just that it isn't necessarily an advantage to be seeded higher.  The IU/PSU example that you used here is a great one.  I was thinking that when I typed up the most recent projections that have #2 Purdue likely facing red hot Penn State on Friday while #3 Ohio State likely gets Indiana.  I would DEFINITELY consider that an advantage for Ohio State.  
Tough to say, really. Purdue and Indiana are rivals and only played once, with Purdue winning. You think Indiana wouldn't come out with extra motivation to try to not only get revenge but knock Purdue out?
The truth is that Purdue didn't have any good options. 1 seed? Possibly playing Michigan, a matchup nightmare for us due to Wagner. 2 seed? Red-hot PSU. 3 seed? Rivalry/revenge game against Indiana. 
A 1 seed and then having Michigan lose so we could face Nebraska or someone else would have been ideal, but that ship has sailed. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 21, 2018, 11:49:22 AM
Penn State/Michigan is an interesting game tonight.  

The Wolverines might already be there, but a win tonight on the road would make them a lock if they are not already.  

Penn State has been playing very well lately and Lunardi now has them as the first team among the "Next Four Out" but their RPI is still only up to #75.  A win tonight would also ensure the Nittany Lions of a better than .500 B1G record which would obviously help.  Penn State might be able to get in even with a loss tonight but it would require some impressive win in the BTT at MSG in NYC.  The much easier path is to win tonight and win in Lincoln this weekend.  Even winning both wouldn't make PSU a "lock" heading into the BTT but it would clearly put them on the bubble.  

A Penn State win tonight would also clinch the #4 seed for the Cornhuskers thus making them the first B1G team to lock down their seed (they can't get  the #3 seed because they would lose a tie with Purdue).  A Michigan win tonight would keep the Wolverines in the running for the final double-bye.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 21, 2018, 07:39:37 PM
Seems like it might be former NBA agent Andy Miller opening his books for this FBI probe.  A quick look at his company (ASM) client list, the only former Big Ten player he currently has signed is AJ Hammons.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on February 21, 2018, 09:04:28 PM
I haven't followed much of this.  Is that agent one of the accused as part of the FBI probe?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 21, 2018, 09:29:47 PM
Per Pat Forde today, yes, and the fact that he hasn't been charged with anything is leading most people to assume he is the one cooperating.  One witness said his lost of recruits he potentially paid is over three times the number he eventually signed.

This is what I speculated about the other day.  That this isn't going to be a story about schools benefitting like Louisville did, but schools forfeiting wins due to payments from agents or shoe companies to recruits, that schools legitimately didn't know about, and didn't benefit from, but would have made the player ineligible.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on February 21, 2018, 11:38:05 PM
ELA ... the more we find out about this the more I agree with your assessment on the shoe guys.   I also think a lot of coaches probably weren't aware, but some were, but even those that were could be difficult to prove that fact.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 21, 2018, 11:45:55 PM
Seems like it might be former NBA agent Andy Miller opening his books for this FBI probe.  A quick look at his company (ASM) client list, the only former Big Ten player he currently has signed is AJ Hammons.
I also saw that he had Troy Williams from Indiana.
I sincerely hope that AJ Hammons signing with him is a coincidence and nothing more... I noted from his player list that he had a number of unhyped players from all sorts of small schools, so I hope that anything nefarious that he did wasn't actually tied to either AJ or Purdue.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 22, 2018, 09:20:12 AM
What a dud, Penn State.  What a total lack of preparation, Patrick Chambers.  What a lack of in-game adjustments when Michigan was making, oh I don't know, 75% of their 3pt shots.  

Never again should anyone around State College mutter why people don't attend PSU hoops games.  Just when excitement is brewing, when national pundits are talking, you come up with THAT performance?

Anyone seen Mike Watkins the past week?  Anyone?  Buehler?  Buehler?

Shaking my head.....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 22, 2018, 09:35:26 AM
Didn't Watkins miss most of the game with an injury?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 22, 2018, 09:39:21 AM
Didn't Watkins miss most of the game with an injury?
He did.  He also missed most of the Purdue game with his usual foul trouble.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 22, 2018, 10:11:30 AM
I'm really hoping UW can get a win in Evanston tonight and keep building for next season. The younger players have shown a lot of grit lately, and they have been overcoming the Hack-a-Happ strategy that teams have been using.

If they can continue to hit the outside shots into tonight, they could be in good position to steal one in Evanston.

It's been kinda fun to watch lately, which is great, because it wasn't fun a month ago.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 22, 2018, 10:17:47 AM
I'm really hoping UW can get a win in Evanston tonight and keep building for next season. The younger players have shown a lot of grit lately, and they have been overcoming the Hack-a-Happ strategy that teams have been using.

If they can continue to hit the outside shots into tonight, they could be in good position to steal one in Evanston.

It's been kinda fun to watch lately, which is great, because it wasn't fun a month ago.
Been VERY impressed with how Wisconsin has handled this season.  It's bound to happen, everyone has this kind of year.  It's like Michigan State football in 2016 - how do you bounce back?  Well, we saw that in full in 2017.  That's the culture/program that's been developed.
I fully expect the Badgers to be back their usual selves next season.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 22, 2018, 11:12:44 AM
Michigan did play vPU, and Purdue won that game. 
My mistake.  I knew that and just forgot it when I typed that up, too much stuff going on.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 22, 2018, 11:25:25 AM
You can't slide one by Medina very often.

Dude has all 14 schedules memorized, as well as the Big Ten standings, his tier system, and all of the tiebreakers. 

Steel trap mind. 

I'd have to have about 20 tabs open to figure all this stuff out. He just runs the algorithm through his head. Like a computer. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 22, 2018, 11:31:39 AM
Michigan's win at Penn State last night was an upset so that changes things but not much.  Here is seeding information:

Maryland is the only team to have clinched their seed.  They will be the home team in the #8/9 game in the BTT at MSG in NYC on Thursday, March 1 at noon on BTN.  

Looked at the other way:

Minnesota, Illinois, Rutgers, and Iowa will open BTT play on Wednesday, February 28.  

Wisconsin, Northwestern, Maryland, Penn State, Indiana, and either Michigan or Nebraska will open BTT play on Thursday, March 1.  

Michigan State, Ohio State, Purdue, and either Michigan or Nebraska will open BTT play on Friday, March 2.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 22, 2018, 11:34:11 AM
You can't slide one by Medina very often.

Dude has all 14 schedules memorized, as well as the Big Ten standings, his tier system, and all of the tiebreakers.

Steel trap mind.

I'd have to have about 20 tabs open to figure all this stuff out. He just runs the algorithm through his head. Like a computer.
LoL, not really.  I have a spreadsheet that I use.  Each year at the beginning of the season I place that year's schedule into it then add in the projected results based on the tiers.  
What I do to keep it all straight is that I have the spreadsheet set up to calculate the projected result two ways:
Then I have a column that I have marked as "check" that simply checks to make sure that the two projections are the same.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on February 23, 2018, 07:21:04 AM
Miles Bridges' name getting tossed around in that FBI case.  There is an expense report of the agent floating around, that includes expenses like thousands of dollars in loans to variosu players.  An "advance" of 400 bucks listed to 
]Miles Bridges' mom."

Not sure what that will amount to.

https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 07:25:08 AM
https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html


Excerpts...


...There’s potential impermissible benefits and preferential treatment for players and families of players at Duke, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Michigan State, USC, Alabama and a host of other schools. The documents link some of the sport’s biggest current stars – Michigan State’s Miles Bridges (https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/players/137369/), Alabama’s Collin Sexton and Duke’s Wendell Carter –...


Someone mentioned Diamond Stone, up-thread.


...Diamond Stone, at the time a freshman at Maryland, received $14,303 according to the documents....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 07:26:14 AM
I'm glad the Badgers won last night. I didn't get to see the game so I cannot comment on my own accord as to how they played.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 23, 2018, 08:23:35 AM

Miles Bridges' name getting tossed around in that FBI case.  There is an expense report of the agent floating around, that includes expenses like thousands of dollars in loans to variosu players.  An "advance" of 400 bucks listed to
]Miles Bridges' mom."

Not sure what that will amount to.

https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html
I think you have to sit him this weekend until you learn more.
As I speculated all along, this was going to be more about players losing eligibility over impermissible benefits rather than a Louisville type thing.  You really wonder just how deep this is going to go with the FBI involved.  They are pulling out $400 handshakes to Bridges' mom and dinners with Wendell Carter.  The NCAA, unless someone talks, generally doesn't figure anything out until we are in the tens of thousands of dollars.
This wasn't even just one agent.  This was one runner from one agent, with ties to players from Duke, UNC, MSU, Kentucky, Texas, Villanova.  The upside to all of this is once the NCAA is presented with all of it they are going to be forced to make a change.
I don't know what it matters for his eligibility, but I do hope Miles didn't know, if for no other reason than the level of stupidity involved in passing up millions of dollars to come back to school, to throw it all away over $400.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 23, 2018, 08:25:32 AM
https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html


Excerpts...


...There’s potential impermissible benefits and preferential treatment for players and families of players at Duke, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Michigan State, USC, Alabama and a host of other schools. The documents link some of the sport’s biggest current stars – Michigan State’s Miles Bridges (https://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/players/137369/), Alabama’s Collin Sexton and Duke’s Wendell Carter –...


Someone mentioned Diamond Stone, up-thread.


...Diamond Stone, at the time a freshman at Maryland, received $14,303 according to the documents....
Yeah, there were a few names listed connected to big dollar amounts

Dennis Smith, NC State: $73,000
Isaiah Whitehead, Seton Hall: $37,000
Bam Adebayo, Kentucky: $36,000
Tim Quarterman, LSU: $16,000
Diamond Stone, Maryland: $14,000
Markelle Fultz, Washington: $10,000
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 08:27:36 AM
I don't know what it matters for his eligibility, but I do hope Miles didn't know, if for no other reason than the level of stupidity involved in passing up millions of dollars to come back to school, to throw it all away over $400.
This is what I was thinking. I have to believe he didn't know. Sometimes, mama doesn't know best. I'm chalking it up to that until I see more detail.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 23, 2018, 08:32:26 AM
This is what I was thinking. I have to believe he didn't know. Sometimes, mama doesn't know best. I'm chalking it up to that until I see more detail.
I still think you have to sit him.  Generally when it's not a booster as the source of the impermissible benefits, the school doesn't retroactively forfeit games.  But if they play him beyond the report, and he turns out to be ineligible, then they ding you.  Given the timing, I wonder if this is a case where MSU appeals the NCAA to force them to hand down a punishment now, so they know.  I seem to recall some other school doing that in this type of case.  A.J. Green was suspended 3 games I think for selling his jersey for $1,000.  5 games for the OSU tattoos?  Granted, on the other hand, Bowen took thousands, and played the whole year, and Cam Newton did too, under the "my parents did it without my knowledge" argument.  And that was involving substantial money.  I think to be safe, for now he has to sit.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 08:33:38 AM
I'm thinking the NCAA wonks are shitting the bed right now, wondering what the hell it's going to do about this.

The best thing that could come from this is to blow the whole thing up and get back to basics - to the way it was intended to function from the start, with full faculty oversight of athletics.

Intercollegiate Conference of Faculty Representatives sounds good to me.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 08:35:45 AM
I still think you have to sit him.  Generally when it's not a booster as the source of the impermissible benefits, the school doesn't retroactively forfeit games.  But if they play him beyond the report, and he turns out to be ineligible, then they ding you.  Given the timing, I wonder if this is a case where MSU appeals the NCAA to force them to hand down a punishment now, so they know.  I seem to recall some other school doing that in this type of case.  A.J. Green was suspended 3 games I think for selling his jersey for $1,000.  5 games for the OSU tattoos?  Granted, on the other hand, Bowen took thousands, and played the whole year, and Cam Newton did too, under the "my parents did it without my knowledge" argument.  And that was involving substantial money.  I think to be safe, for now he has to sit.
Well, the timing of this really sucks for MSU, for obvious reasons. If his mother actually did this without his knowledge, then shame on her for wrecking her son's experience and hurting MSU, the coaches and all the players at the same time.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 23, 2018, 08:38:45 AM
Well, the timing of this really sucks for MSU, for obvious reasons. If his mother actually did this without his knowledge, then shame on her for wrecking her son's experience and hurting MSU, the coaches and all the players at the same time.
And for not coming forward when given the chance.  This story broke in September.  I think you could have remedied a lot of it then, by saying you took $400 from an agent the year before.  If it's not 10s of thousands of dollars, and I think something could have been done, if you had been proactive about it.  But yes, if she did it without his knowledge, that's selfish and awful, and I can't imagine how he feels this morning, knowing his mother did that to him.  If he did know, he's dumb for doing it, and even dumber for coming back for his sophomore year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 08:44:14 AM
That's why I have to believe he didn't know.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 23, 2018, 08:56:38 AM
I've learned to never underestimate the poor decision making ability of an 18 year old
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 08:59:10 AM
I've learned to never underestimate the poor decision making ability of an 18 year old
Or an 18 year old's mother...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 23, 2018, 09:03:21 AM
I know it's naive and understand that college sports is a business, but I'm going to be very disappointed in UMD if it's true that Diamond Stone got paid.

These seem like weird amounts, as in, really low, for players/programs to be taking this kind of risk*.  My guess is that

a) it's bogus
or
b) these amounts are only the tip of the iceberg.


* edit.  I take that back.  For one thing, some of the numbers aren't that low after a second look.  Also, who am I to say what is significant amount of lettuce to somebody else, especially in a place where money goes further than where I is at.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 23, 2018, 09:10:50 AM
I know it's naive and understand that college sports is a business, but I'm going to be very disappointed in UMD if it's true that Diamond Stone got paid.

These seem like weird amounts, as in, really low, for players/programs to be taking this kind of risk.  My guess is that

a) it's bogus
or
b) these amounts are only the tip of the iceberg.
You can be disappointed in Stone, but these were agents, not boosters, so I'd have a hard time being disappointed in Maryland.  They seemingly had no ties to programs.  Hell, Bridges mom got $400, but Josh Jackson, who MSU was favored in for a while, got his mom $1,700, and he went to Kansas.  I don't think any of (at least this portion) was tied to steering players to schools like in a booster scandal.  This is more about trying to steer guys to an agency once they reach the NBA.  His notes next to those big money guys reflect that.  Things like "Bad Loan" and "Not signing with us, working out repayment plan."
Now if more shoe company stuff comes out, that's where things could get ugly.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 23, 2018, 09:31:18 AM
You can be disappointed in Stone, but these were agents, not boosters, so I'd have a hard time being disappointed in Maryland.  They seemingly had no ties to programs.  Hell, Bridges mom got $400, but Josh Jackson, who MSU was favored in for a while, got his mom $1,700, and he went to Kansas.  I don't think any of (at least this portion) was tied to steering players to schools like in a booster scandal.  This is more about trying to steer guys to an agency once they reach the NBA.  His notes next to those big money guys reflect that.  Things like "Bad Loan" and "Not signing with us, working out repayment plan."
Now if more shoe company stuff comes out, that's where things could get ugly.
Ah, okay.  Thanks, Adam.  I guess I'm not up to speed on this topic.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 09:59:23 AM
This is quite the load of shit from the head man of an agency that couldn't take down North Carolina.



“These allegations, if true, point to systematic failures that must be fixed and fixed now if we want college sports in America. Simply put, people who engage in this kind of behavior have no place in college sports. They are an affront to all those who play by the rules, Emmert said.
“Following the Southern District of New York’s indictments last year, the NCAA Board of Governors and I formed the independent Commission on College Basketball, chaired by Condoleezza Rice, to provide recommendations on how to clean up the sport. With these latest allegations, it’s clear this work is more important now than ever. The Board and I are completely committed to making transformational changes to the game and ensuring all involved in college basketball do so with integrity. We also will continue to cooperate with the efforts of federal prosecutors to identify and punish the unscrupulous parties seeking to exploit the system through criminal acts.”
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on February 23, 2018, 12:09:25 PM
What a dud, Penn State.  What a total lack of preparation, Patrick Chambers.  What a lack of in-game adjustments when Michigan was making, oh I don't know, 75% of their 3pt shots.  

Never again should anyone around State College mutter why people don't attend PSU hoops games.  Just when excitement is brewing, when national pundits are talking, you come up with THAT performance?

Anyone seen Mike Watkins the past week?  Anyone?  Buehler?  Buehler?

Shaking my head.....
see UNL and their Illinois loss...  at least Michigan is legit.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on February 23, 2018, 12:17:23 PM
So the question is not are agents giving kids money, but are agents directing kids to certain schools...   what relationships do they have?   I think that is where a school could get in trouble. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 23, 2018, 12:23:07 PM
May I recommend that we move the scandal discussion to a separate thread?  I think it is already confusing and going to get worse trying to keep track of BB discussion and agent/shoe company money scandal in the same thread.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 12:25:38 PM
That's a good idea moving forward. I put it in here because it impacts programs in the Big Ten (PSU is also involved, in addition to UMd and MSU).

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 23, 2018, 12:29:52 PM
So the question is not are agents giving kids money, but are agents directing kids to certain schools...   what relationships do they have?   I think that is where a school could get in trouble.  
Well that's where schools themselves could be in trouble.
Here, really the only issue is the impact on schools of the kids being punished.  I don't know what will come of the big payment schools (Washington, Maryland, NC State, Utah) because all those kids are gone.  I don't see the NCAA vacating any wins unless there's some proof out there the school knew, and obviously they can't punish the players who took the money at this point.  So really, I think all that comes out of this story is what punishment, if any, for Bridges, Wendell Carter, Kevin Knox, Collin Sexton, right now.
The Carter, Knox and Sexton ones are particularly tough to pin any sort of penalty to, because I think all they can prove is that they met with the guy.  Then Bridges you have a smallish sum of money ($400), paid to the mother.  I did see someone find a sort of on point case where an agent paid a Miami player $400 to sign autographs, and the kid was suspended 1 game, and had to pay the money back.  That was football, so 1 game was about the equivalent of 2.5 games in basketball.  That case the money was paid directly to the kid too.  I almost wonder if MSU comes out with a statement, and suspends him 2 or 3 games for the actions of his mom, and the NCAA leaves it at that.
The complicating factor is that it wasn't like Yahoo got everything the FBI had on this guy.  I think they got like one balance sheet from this one specific runner.  This runner is the son of a long time Michigan high school coach, which is why so many of the names that came up today (Bridges (MSU), Jackson (Kansas), Kuzma (Utah), Sumner (Xavier), Bowen (Louisville/South Carolina), and Davis (Texas)) were Michigan high school players.  My guess is those were the contacts this specific runner was working.
This guy's brother actually died at an MSU basketball camp like a decade ago due to an undiagnosed heart condition.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 23, 2018, 12:46:50 PM
Back to Basketball.  At this point every team in the B1G has exactly one game remaining so I can be a bit more specific with the seeding projections:

*The bottom four are a confusing mess to figure out.  

If Minnesota wins (@PU) they will finish alone in 11th place.  If they lose, they will finish tied with the RU/IL winner and Iowa (if they win vNU) for 11th, 12th, and possibly 13th.  

The RU/IL winner will either finish alone in 12th place (if MN wins and Iowa loses) or tied with MN (if they lose @PU) and/or Iowa (if they win (vNU).  

If Iowa wins they will finish tied with the RU/IL winner and MN (if they win @PU).  If Iowa loses they will finish tied for 13th/14th with the RU/IL loser.  

The RU/IL loser will either finish alone in 14th place (if Iowa wins vNU) or tied for 13th/14th (if Iowa loses).  

What we know for sure is this:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 01:32:10 PM
You could make the argument that the 10 seed has an easier road to hoe than the 8 and 9 seeds if things play out to projections. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 23, 2018, 02:26:26 PM
You could make the argument that the 10 seed has an easier road to hoe than the 8 and 9 seeds if things play out to projections.
It depends on a lot of things but you certainly could be right.  I'd rather play IU than PSU right now.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on February 23, 2018, 02:26:43 PM
I just have this gut punching feeling that UNL is going to lose to PSU..  and there will be no discussion left about the NCAA tourney.   The team has played very tight late in games the last couple weeks... I can see the moment impacting shots. 

either way, I have enjoyed this team and this season.  While exceeding expectations always makes the year better, UNL has some great team chemistry, they have guys who are athletes (and hence look like they belong) and they play pretty good defense (typically).    I won't consider it a failure if they end up in the NIT.   I just hope nobody leaves early and they can build upon this year's success
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 23, 2018, 02:39:49 PM
Woah, did Big Jim actually admit he was wrong?

https://twitter.com/ChicagoSports/status/967114577833091072
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 23, 2018, 04:02:24 PM
I don't think he actually said he was wrong. He also said he is not looking back and then tried to put some positive spins on it, like extra rest and all that shit.

All I know is he wasn't worried about rest when he scheduled UW to play 9 games in 22 days.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 23, 2018, 09:54:30 PM
I knew the schedule was shit from the start.

I think everyone here did. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on February 23, 2018, 10:53:11 PM
Heck of a finish for the Bucks.  24-7 and either the 1 or 2 seed in the conference tourney.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 24, 2018, 12:57:48 AM
On Wisconsin
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 24, 2018, 10:50:22 AM
I will be at the Vault in Lincoln tomorrow afternoon for the UNL-PSU game with my daughter

good seats!

I'm pumped
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 24, 2018, 01:11:02 PM
On Wisconsin
Go take a shower.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 24, 2018, 01:18:57 PM
Michigan is the best team in the conference right now.  Peaking at the right time
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on February 24, 2018, 01:31:00 PM
Michigan is the best team in the conference right now.  Peaking at the right time
 If Simpson’s free throw shooting stays at the more recent level he has bumped up to and they get good production out of MAAR and Robinson they could be a tough out in the tourney. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on February 24, 2018, 02:49:44 PM
The past week, particularly today, has been very encouraging. It seems the offense is finally reaching its potential, and the defense is even able to play zone when man-to-man doesn't work well. If Matthews finally gets past his struggles (in the second half he finally played okay), then they can definitely make a run in the tournament, especially if they can get a 4 seed and be in the Detroit region.

If Nebraska gets the 4 seed for the BTT, then I still think Michigan still has a chance to win 4 games in 4 days like last year (the only difference is having to play one of the bottom 4 teams on Thursday), though I think Purdue will probably be most motivated to win the BTT since they didn't win the regular season (barring an upset by Wisconsin, of course) after starting so strong.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 24, 2018, 06:35:51 PM
Bill Self has still never lost both games to a conference opponent in a season while at Kansas.  That is a crazy stat no matter what, but in a league with a full double round-robin, it's absolutely mind blowing.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 24, 2018, 10:02:46 PM
Kansas sets NCAA record with 14th straight regular-season league title
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 12:47:32 AM
Did Oregon, a likely tourney team, just storm the court for beating #14?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 25, 2018, 10:38:26 AM

I think I would also prefer Wisconsin be a mediocre 9 seed NCAA team.  Instead, they have no postseason, and they would love nothing more than to ruin this for MSU.  Kind of like 2006 when OSU upset Illinois in the finale to ruin their undefeated season.
I don't think UW has the horses to compete with MSU, regardless of circumstance. They don't even have a true point guard on the available roster. They are both out for the season.

That said, strange things can happen on senior day in Madison - even though all 3 seniors are walk-on kids.

Lastly, if UW can somehow scratch out a win today and win two in NYC, they will be eligible for some sort of postseason with a .500 record. Is this not the case?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 01:11:54 PM
So Gard going with the same game plan that put them in a huge hole last time.  Force feeding Happ and getting nothing.  They played well last time once they abandoned that
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on February 25, 2018, 01:39:16 PM
Today, I'm a Wisconsin fan.  I'll shower later. :sign0137: :sign0137: :sign0137: :sign0137: :sign0137: :sign0137: :sign0137: :sign0137:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 25, 2018, 01:42:43 PM
So Gard going with the same game plan that put them in a huge hole last time.  Force feeding Happ and getting nothing.  They played well last time once they abandoned that
I’m not watching, but that’s kind of always the gameplan. 
UW is really short on other gameplans with this roster. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 01:50:42 PM
It started working once they found more creative ways to get him involved.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 25, 2018, 01:55:43 PM
I love Happ, but his game was always gonna have some issues with the size MSU can roll out there, even when he had shooting support, which he does not now. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 02:11:32 PM
2 points on 1-8 shooting.  We'd probably be in better shape with Bridges out, because his head clearly ain't right.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 02:15:07 PM
There are times when MSU's half court offense is tough to watch, but this isn't one of those days.  They are getting themselves a ton of good looks, and just missing everything.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: boilerbanger on February 25, 2018, 02:30:11 PM
Davidson is unconscious right now ... tough kid coming right back in after popping his shoulder out.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 02:37:05 PM
There are times when MSU's half court offense is tough to watch, but this isn't one of those days.  They are getting themselves a ton of good looks, and just missing everything.
1-11 now.
After his crap game in front of Dakich after Dakich called him out, kind of figured this would be his response.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 02:43:59 PM
Quote
Lol, last time a defender put a body on a guy like that, they called the offensive player for travelling for receiving the hip check.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 02:46:44 PM
With McQuaid and Bridges absent, this Winston career game was sorely needed.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 02:59:05 PM
Big play by Jackson.  He is MUCH better as a helpside defender, so Happ going right at him is the right idea, and had largely worked.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 03:04:02 PM
Wow, I don't think I've ever seen a missed call like that in Kohl.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 03:11:26 PM
Izzo continues to not understand the difference between good and good for a walk on.

Goins should not be in at this moment.  Fouls the 3 point shooter, then can't secure the rebound and makes it a 5 point possession.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 25, 2018, 03:13:31 PM

Pretty impressive that MSU could overcome all that adversity that was on their plate, and scrape together an outright title. 

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on February 25, 2018, 03:13:36 PM
If Bridges rights the ship and Ward and Winston keep up their play this is my tourney favorite.

Love Davison. Haven’t met a HS coach in the Tein Cities that coached against him that hasn’t said the same thing. 

The gophers screwed the pooch. Could have had a freshman backcourt of Davison and McKinley Wright. Instead they went after the NY street baller 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 25, 2018, 03:17:37 PM
Had everything not gone wrong for UW this year, I still wouldn’t have predicted a win today. 

Factor in the development failures, and the injuries to a pair of rotation players, the fact UW stayed as close as it did really impressed. MSU helped, but this team is still only six-deep before it gets to the scrubs and walk-ons, and those six are plenty young. 

Seeing that they still fight hard at this point for Gard, he and UW should be alright. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 25, 2018, 03:18:08 PM
We need medina on here for game by game updates today.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 25, 2018, 07:25:41 PM
Davidson is unconscious right now ... tough kid coming right back in after popping his shoulder out.
He's been doing that, and playing out of position, all season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 25, 2018, 07:27:43 PM
The gophers screwed the pooch. Could have had a freshman backcourt of Davison and McKinley Wright. Instead they went after the NY street baller
Gophers are all flash and no dash. Eventually they'll get it figured out up there and get some dash, but only when they lose the flash ('Lil Rickey and 'Lil Peej).

RTsB
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on February 25, 2018, 08:50:53 PM
Man does it pain me like hell Purdue was 12-0 and then doesn't even get a piece of the damn title along with very likely throwing the 1 seed away  That's how damning 2 final possession losses to 1st and 2nd place teams can be after leading the vast majority of both games, along with dropping an alltime stinker (given the full circumstances) at Wisc.

I was surprised to see this was MSU's 1st outright title since 09.

It it terrific that Purdue gets to face IU Fri night, unless the latter screws it up.  If they can then top OSU, and meet MSU in the CTCG, I think the winner of Purdue/MSU can sneak into a 1 seed

Bracket wise for Purdue I would prefer to avoid one with Kansas, UNC and Duke.

Should be a fun BTT, though I still am rolling my eyes at the NYC and finish a week early deal, both could actually end up benefiting Purdue, as they could use the 1.5 week rest, Haas, PJ and Vince have looked absolutely beat in the last couple weeks.  Vince's injury has allowed Carsen to really show what a crazy scorer he can be when he's allowed to go true alpha scorer.  I went to the game in Champaign, was quite sweet to see a 40-burger live. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on February 25, 2018, 09:19:19 PM
He's been doing that, and playing out of position, all season.
I kind of wonder where this string ends.
Watching Davison, he plays like very few shooting guards of recent UW vintage. Traditionally the SG is a high-efficiency/lower-usage floor spacer who can do an extra thing here and there (Brust, Gasser, Jbo, Showalter). Davison is much more in the mold of UW points, i.e. taking the ball at the end of the clock and making something happen. The last UW SG to really do that was Flowers, and he might be the only one outside of when Devin Harris played there as a freshman. I think Hughes played some his last two years, but that was because Jordan Taylor was taking the ball a lot and in essence making Hughes more of a wing/SG.
The thing I'm interested in is, can Davison allow Trice to be a floor-spacing shooter with better passing/point skills next year? I still like Brad having the ball in his hands at the end of the clock, but the potential to do it with either Prtizel or Trice (or both) out there is interesting. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 25, 2018, 09:21:03 PM
We need medina on here for game by game updates today.
I have had a busy day but here is where we are now (as I type this Iowa has about a 20 point lead on NU so I'm going to assume that it holds up):
Thus, the match-ups in the BTT at MSG in NYC will be:
Wednesday, February 28:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:
Saturday, March 3:
Sunday, March 4:

Note to Brutus, sorry there will not be a tOSU/M match-up in the BTT at MSG in NYC unless the Buckeyes and Wolverines both make the B1GCG.  

Some interesting stories/potential match-ups:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 25, 2018, 09:25:54 PM
I have had a busy day but here is where we are now (as I type this Iowa has about a 20 point lead on NU so I'm going to assume that it holds up)
In the time it took me to type that up the NU/Iowa game has closed to now only an 11 point game.  If Northwestern wins:
So the Wednesday, February 28 match-ups would be:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Hawkinole on February 25, 2018, 11:02:15 PM
Jordan Bohanan intentionally misses free throw to preserve his tie with Chris Street -- who had no opportunity to extend his free throw streak of 34.
http://www.hawkcentral.com/story/sports/college/iowa/basketball-men/2018/02/25/jordan-bohannons-intentionally-missed-free-throw-keeps-chris-street-record-books/371686002/
Afterward, Mike Street, Chris Street's dad who is a season ticket holder told him,  "We certainly in the future want him to get another shot at it. "I told him, ‘Next time, you need to go right on by."
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 25, 2018, 11:13:26 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DW7cQ8VVoAErsYu.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Hawkinole on February 25, 2018, 11:17:15 PM
After Northwestern rebounded the miss, Nicholas Baer picked up a quick steal. And Luka Garza scored to put Iowa comfortably ahead, 75-65.
No harm done. One significant record maintained. 
“We had an agreement that God’s plan wasn’t going to let that happen. You saw that tonight," Bohannon said. "I missed it. We got the ball right back. I don’t know if it was really destined to happen, but it worked out like it should have.”
Even though Bohannon was born more than 4 years after Street's death, his legacy has endured. That's why this record meant so much. Now the two Hawkeyes share it.
“I know where the record deserves to stand, and that’s in Chris’ name," Bohannon said. "... It gets me a little emotional, knowing what one player can do for an entire state and entire Midwest and entire country, just to know what type of player he was.”
"That's not my record to have. That record deserves to stay in his name."
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: jhetfield99 on February 26, 2018, 01:41:38 AM
Very interesting tribute.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 26, 2018, 07:24:00 AM
I kind of wonder where this string ends.
Watching Davison, he plays like very few shooting guards of recent UW vintage. Traditionally the SG is a high-efficiency/lower-usage floor spacer who can do an extra thing here and there (Brust, Gasser, Jbo, Showalter). Davison is much more in the mold of UW points, i.e. taking the ball at the end of the clock and making something happen. The last UW SG to really do that was Flowers, and he might be the only one outside of when Devin Harris played there as a freshman. I think Hughes played some his last two years, but that was because Jordan Taylor was taking the ball a lot and in essence making Hughes more of a wing/SG.
The thing I'm interested in is, can Davison allow Trice to be a floor-spacing shooter with better passing/point skills next year? I still like Brad having the ball in his hands at the end of the clock, but the potential to do it with either Prtizel or Trice (or both) out there is interesting.
I think this season of him having to play the point will serve him well and make him a much better shooting guard. He's now got that appreciation for what it takes at the college level and what I think will happen is he will be more adept at the reads and cuts moving forward.

I wonder where Anderson fits in all this, for next year. Maybe the backup for Trice, with Davison and Pritzl at the SG?

They could also play three guards. It will be nice for Gard to have more Guards.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 26, 2018, 08:53:30 AM
Very disappointing morning to be a Nittany Lion.  Nebraska imposed their will last night, team looks really tough; hats off to them.  

But man, what coulda been.....Was all right in front of this team, and they really clammed up the last week of the season.

The ONLY silver lining is if they do win their first game, they get OSU in the quarters and then likely Purdue in the semis, both teams I'd rather see than Michigan or MSU.  But I don't expect them to have OSU's number for a third straight game.  Heck at this point, I'm not sure they get past Northwestern anyway without Watkins.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 26, 2018, 10:55:53 AM
I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts on the bubble.  Here are mine:

Locks:
Need to win BTT:
Possible Bubble Teams:
13-5/22-9 Nebraska:
The Cornhusker's went 8-1 in their last nine and have a couple of close calls (OT loss at PSU, one point loss to Kansas) but their loss at Illinois (the 1 in their 8-1 finish) is problematic as is their overall weak B1G schedule (MSU, PU, tOSU, M, and UMD only once each).  If they go one-and-done in the BTT I think that they would need a historically weak bubble to sneak in.  However, their first opponent is likely to be a tournament-bound Wolverine squad and if Nebraska beats Michigan I think they have a very good chance to get in even with a loss the next day, especially if the loss is a "good loss" to Michigan State.  

9-9/19-12 Penn State:
Only six teams have ever received at-large bids with 14 losses but making it with 13 losses it not unusual.  Penn State, however, has several problems.  First, their two wins over Ohio State are quite possibly their only wins over tournament teams.  Second, they have too many bad losses.  PSU's sub-100 RPI losses:
In addition they have mid-range losses @ #58 UNL, @ #64 UMD, and vs #65 Rider.  They desperately need more quality wins to make up for the bad losses.  

Penn State obviously has to beat Northwestern on Thursday and Ohio State on Friday.  Even then, I don't think that 2-1 in the BTT and a final record of 21-13 would be enough so I think they need to make the B1GCG.  That probably means that they need to beat Purdue on Saturday.  22-13 with BTT wins over NU, tOSU, and PU might get them there.  

8-10/19-12 Maryland:
The Terps have a much better RPI and better computer rankings in general than PSU.  Part of that is their slew of near misses.  It is crazy that they have 12 losses and eight of them were by eight or less points.  Nonetheless, Maryland doesn't have as many bad losses as PSU but they also don't have two wins over tournament teams.  At this point Maryland's only win over a likely tournament team is their win over Butler way back in November.  That and their sub .500 B1G record may mean that they are already in "need to win BTT" territory.  At a minimum they need to make the CG on Sunday.  That would require wins over Wisconsin (Thursday) and Michigan State (Friday).  Then they would need to win the semi-final on Saturday against Michigan, Nebraska, Illinois, or Iowa.  If they did all that then lost in the CG they still might miss the NCAA tournament at 22-13.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on February 26, 2018, 12:52:02 PM
Honestly, I don't think Maryland is worthy of a tournament berth even if they made it to the finals.  And I don't think they'd get a berth if they did somehow get that far.

At some point I think losses are losses, no matter how small...  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 26, 2018, 03:11:55 PM
I think PSU is a 'needs to win tourney' team at this point.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on February 26, 2018, 03:35:07 PM
Nebraska needs to knock off Michigan and Michigan State back to back. Beyond that it’s tough to see them getting in, which is unfortunate because I think they could do damage in the first weekend.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on February 26, 2018, 07:55:14 PM
I think the Huskers could possibly get in with a win over Michigan and a close loss to MSU, but only with some help.  A few bubble teams ahead of them lose games

long shot, that road loss to Illinois hurt

beating Michigan and Michigan state would get them in with  24 wins, finishing very strong

upsets would not help, beating Illinois and/or Maryland would force the Skers to beat Purdue or OSU to get in
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 27, 2018, 09:32:37 AM
I think the Huskers are basically in a play-in game on Friday.  Win and in.  Lose and NIT.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 27, 2018, 11:12:57 AM
I think the Huskers are basically in a play-in game on Friday.  Win and in.  Lose and NIT.  
It might depend on who they play.  If Michigan gets upset on Thursday the Huskers might need more than just a win over a non-tournament Illinois or Iowa team.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 27, 2018, 11:19:15 AM
FWIW:
I'm going to the BTT at MSG in NYC but I'll probably only be attending sessions in which Ohio State plays.  

We are leaving early Friday morning and figure to make it to NYC in time to drop our luggage at a hotel and maybe grab a bite to eat before the 6:30 session on Friday evening:
We will miss the early Friday games travelling.  

Assuming that Ohio State wins on Friday we'll go to the Saturday session:
Then if Ohio State wins on Saturday we'll go to the CG on Sunday:

I'd like to stay for the CG either way but NYC is about an eight hour drive for me so if my Buckeyes are out I'll be on the road heading home during the CG.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: msufan23 on February 27, 2018, 11:46:08 AM
Big ten tourney. You guys wanna do the fantasy draft/game we normally do?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 27, 2018, 11:53:38 AM
Big ten tourney. You guys wanna do the fantasy draft/game we normally do?
ELA, you doing it?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 27, 2018, 01:35:33 PM
ELA, you doing it?
I don't think I've done that in like 5 years
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 27, 2018, 05:00:06 PM
Right now Lunardi has both MSU and Purdue as 2-seeds.

What's the path to a 1? I assume that if the teams above us all hold serve and win their conference tournaments, I'm not sure either team manages it. But I can't imagine that all 4 current 1 seeds will do so.

MSU: They will likely face Maryland or Wisconsin, which won't add much. Then most likely face Michigan or Northwestern in the semis, and either is a solid win. Finally the odds are they'd play OSU or Purdue, and if they won the BTT they'd have gotten a pretty good win there.

I think MSU could probably get to a 1, winning the BTT, even if upsets occurred and they ended up with an easy path of, say, Wisconsin, Iowa, and then Penn State. At 31-3, they're pretty much a 1 IMHO regardless of how they get there.

Purdue: Purdue, currently at 26-5, has it harder. I think Purdue has to win the BTT, beating MSU in the process, to get a 1. I think wins over IU and OSU wouldn't quite get there if they ended up facing, say, Nebraska in the final. I think if they beat Minnesota and PSU but then faced [and beat] MSU, they have probably earned a 1. If they face IU, OSU, and MSU, and win all three, I think they're definitely a 1.

What do you guys think?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on February 27, 2018, 05:14:46 PM
IMO.. UNL has to win out to get in.   For whatever reason, beating PSU doesn't help as much as say someone beating LSU this year.  I guess I'm not enough of a basketball expert to understand why teams with winning records in one conference are better wins than others, but this year, the ACC, SEC and Big12 are getting a lot of credit for wins over teams that don't appear any different than say PSU or UNL.  

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 27, 2018, 05:26:04 PM
Right now Lunardi has both MSU and Purdue as 2-seeds.

What's the path to a 1? I assume that if the teams above us all hold serve and win their conference tournaments, I'm not sure either team manages it. But I can't imagine that all 4 current 1 seeds will do so.

MSU: They will likely face Maryland or Wisconsin, which won't add much. Then most likely face Michigan or Northwestern in the semis, and either is a solid win. Finally the odds are they'd play OSU or Purdue, and if they won the BTT they'd have gotten a pretty good win there.

I think MSU could probably get to a 1, winning the BTT, even if upsets occurred and they ended up with an easy path of, say, Wisconsin, Iowa, and then Penn State. At 31-3, they're pretty much a 1 IMHO regardless of how they get there.

Purdue: Purdue, currently at 26-5, has it harder. I think Purdue has to win the BTT, beating MSU in the process, to get a 1. I think wins over IU and OSU wouldn't quite get there if they ended up facing, say, Nebraska in the final. I think if they beat Minnesota and PSU but then faced [and beat] MSU, they have probably earned a 1. If they face IU, OSU, and MSU, and win all three, I think they're definitely a 1.

What do you guys think?
Well either Villanova or Xavier has to lose.  Then he has Virginia as a 1, and both Duke and UNC as 2s.  So only one of them can win it.  I think ideally Virginia just wins it, because they probably still get a 1 anyway, and that would knock Duke or UNC out.
I think if Virginia wins, all MSU has to do is win it, Purdue probably has to beat OSU and MSU in the process of winning it.
If it's Duke or UNC out of the ACC, it gets tougher, although I'm struggling to see how UNC would get a 1 seed over MSU, but I bet they would.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 27, 2018, 05:27:18 PM
Is the Big Ten just bragging about how poorly they located the tournament with this sign?

https://twitter.com/TomFornelli/status/968297670346465281
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 27, 2018, 06:50:32 PM


The big bad Horizon League bracket


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DW7JsxUUQAAPqtw.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on February 27, 2018, 07:08:53 PM
Is the Big Ten just bragging about how poorly they located the tournament with this sign?

https://twitter.com/TomFornelli/status/968297670346465281
yes
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on February 27, 2018, 09:04:37 PM
I thought about this sign when I saw one for the women in Indy downtown today.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on February 27, 2018, 09:39:56 PM
Maybe I’m taking the sign too literally but the B1G needs to hire a geography guy too. College Park, MD looks nearly in line with Ann Arbor and East Lansing. And Iowa City and Lincoln look like they are in completely different regions from each other 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on February 27, 2018, 09:54:45 PM
I'm guessing Big East fans are trolling the sign. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on February 28, 2018, 03:10:35 AM
Honestly, I don't think Maryland is worthy of a tournament berth even if they made it to the finals.  And I don't think they'd get a berth if they did somehow get that far.

At some point I think losses are losses, no matter how small...  
Been beating this point to death. A shell of what we could have been, and even when healthy, looked lost at times. 
If we can keep all the underclassmen, with the transfer, and what is coming in, we should be a much better team next year. 
Fairly dominant. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 28, 2018, 08:26:35 AM
I'm guessing Big East fans are trolling the sign.
Yeah, I'm sure the Creighton fans are all over it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on February 28, 2018, 12:26:32 PM
Been beating this point to death. A shell of what we could have been, and even when healthy, looked lost at times.
If we can keep all the underclassmen, with the transfer, and what is coming in, we should be a much better team next year.
Fairly dominant.
I know the Terps are used to being upper echelon, but take this season for what it's worth - 7 straight tourney years, one minor step back this season (NIT), let the kids get some experience and I think they will be very good again next year.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 28, 2018, 01:42:56 PM
Been beating this point to death. A shell of what we could have been, and even when healthy, looked lost at times.
If we can keep all the underclassmen, with the transfer, and what is coming in, we should be a much better team next year.
Fairly dominant.
Sounds about the same as Maryland's opponent tomorrow. I don't know about "dominant" though. MSU is more of that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on February 28, 2018, 06:07:04 PM
https://twitter.com/leebeeowh/status/968978138066800641
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 28, 2018, 06:12:15 PM
https://twitter.com/leebeeowh/status/968978138066800641
LoL, that is sad but to be fair I don't think attendance for the 12/13 and 11/14 games has ever been very good.  I'll report back Friday evening what the crowd looks like for the tOSU vs NU/PSU and PU vs IU/RU/MN games.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 28, 2018, 10:44:00 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/969047622429368320/ae-_hK5y?format=jpg&name=600x314)


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXF0gWgW4AAZd5X.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 28, 2018, 10:47:34 PM

Need to win BTT:
  • RU
  • IA
  • NU
  • UW
  • IU
 .  
So who from this group has the best chance of pulling it off? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 28, 2018, 11:59:52 PM
UW is the best of that group.


On the other thing... B1G Jim needs to go away. I mean, it's great that all of those 673 Rutgers fans showed up tonight.

Really.

Great.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 01, 2018, 06:54:42 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXLXr1lXUAASKlB.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 01, 2018, 10:12:10 AM
LoL, that is sad but to be fair I don't think attendance for the 12/13 and 11/14 games has ever been very good.  I'll report back Friday evening what the crowd looks like for the tOSU vs NU/PSU and PU vs IU/RU/MN games.  
So, what was the attendance for the RU game?  If any 11/14 had a chance to get butts in the seats, you'd think it was the local squad right?
What an abject failure this entire experiment is going to be.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 01, 2018, 10:29:43 AM
UW is the best of that group.
It would be seriously epic if Wisconsin somehow won the BTT and managed to extend their NCAA Tournament streak to 20 appearances.  
FWIW, the longest steaks are:
The longest current streaks are:
The dropoff in current streaks from 19 for Gonzaga/Wisconsin to just seven for the next best is pretty amazing.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 01, 2018, 10:34:57 AM
What are Iowa's chances of pulling off the upset this afternoon, relative to Northwestern's? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 01, 2018, 10:38:13 AM
What are Iowa's chances of pulling off the upset this afternoon, relative to Northwestern's?
According to the guys in Vegas:
That suggests that Northwestern's chances are substantially better.  In the other two games Rutgers and Wisconsin are 8 and 2.5 point dogs respectively.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 01, 2018, 11:12:13 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXNh5KEWsAA_AMS.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 01, 2018, 11:34:13 AM
The problem is multi-level.

Yes, NYC is a problem for a number of reasons.  You have to fly, hotels are expensive.  At least Chicago only has the 2nd part of that problem, Indy has neither.

But adding the 5th day is going to be a problem no matter what.  Nobody is taking an extra day off to go to those, and no matter where you put it, those fan bases aren't going to worry about it, their teams had terrible years.  They are probably just rooting for the season to be over.  I think they could have played those games on campus last night, and you'd have had problems.

Speaking of that, what about it?  End the conference on Saturday (no Sunday games the final weekend) and play those play in games Monday or Tuesday on campus of the #11 and #12 seeds?  The start the tourney in earnest on Thursday as a 12 team tourney?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 01, 2018, 11:47:23 AM
Updated composite computer poll as of the end of conference play. 64 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Virginia (1)
2.Villanova (2)
3.Duke (4)
4.MICHIGAN STATE (3)
5.PURDUE (5)
6.Kansas (9)
7.North Carolina (8)
8.Cincinnati (6)
9.Xavier (7)
10.Auburn (11)
11.Gonzaga (13)
12.Texas Tech (10)
13.Wichita State (12)
14.West Virginia (14)
15.Tennessee (15)
16.OHIO STATE (17)
17.MICHIGAN (21)
18.Clemson (16)
19.Kentucky (25)
20.TCU (23)
21.Arizona (18)
22.Rhode Island (22)
23.Houston (19)
24.Butler (-)
25.Nevada (20)
-
46.Penn State (42)
52.Maryland (50)
53.Nebraska (59)
76.Indiana (71)
86.Wisconsin (93)
97.Northwestern (86)
107.Minnesota (103)
108.Illinois (113)
111.Iowa (112)
156.Rutgers (145)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 01, 2018, 11:56:00 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXJpWwjVQAArrhE.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on March 01, 2018, 02:16:29 PM
That's the season in nut shell.

Opponent in the bonus halfway through the second half, turnovers, can't rebound, no depth, just an all-around terrible team.

Amazing how at New York we're supposed to have an advantage yet we can't even get into the bonus in the second half.

Coincidence? I don't think so.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 01, 2018, 02:18:19 PM
The problem is multi-level.

Yes, NYC is a problem for a number of reasons.  You have to fly, hotels are expensive.  At least Chicago only has the 2nd part of that problem, Indy has neither.

But adding the 5th day is going to be a problem no matter what.  Nobody is taking an extra day off to go to those, and no matter where you put it, those fan bases aren't going to worry about it, their teams had terrible years.  They are probably just rooting for the season to be over.  I think they could have played those games on campus last night, and you'd have had problems.

Speaking of that, what about it?  End the conference on Saturday (no Sunday games the final weekend) and play those play in games Monday or Tuesday on campus of the #11 and #12 seeds?  The start the tourney in earnest on Thursday as a 12 team tourney?
That sounds fine. Some smaller conferences do it, and I don't mind. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 01, 2018, 03:15:02 PM
Speaking of that, what about it?  End the conference on Saturday (no Sunday games the final weekend) and play those play in games Monday or Tuesday on campus of the #11 and #12 seeds?  The start the tourney in earnest on Thursday as a 12 team tourney?
I am not in favor for three reasons:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 01, 2018, 03:34:59 PM
Hawkeyes are lookin' alive. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 01, 2018, 05:09:45 PM
Hawkeyes are lookin' alive.
The Hawkeyes couldn't quite pull off the upset but they sure gave Michigan a heck of a scare.  
We have observed here before that playing a second game in two days is typically not a disadvantage and frequently is actually an advantage.  It will be interesting to see how that plays out tomorrow when the top four seeds take on teams that have already played.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on March 01, 2018, 10:13:13 PM
Well, gotta admit that the games have all been pretty good today.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 02, 2018, 02:47:06 AM
Louisville managed to lose to Virginia despite being up 4 with .9 seconds left
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 02, 2018, 07:10:12 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXQTDZXX0AArP08.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 02, 2018, 07:11:32 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXQZisFWAAYTopD.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 02, 2018, 07:28:00 AM
Prediction: OSU gets exposed (again) versus PSU.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Drew4UTk on March 02, 2018, 09:31:38 AM
https://www.cfb51.com/pub/?p=42178
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 02, 2018, 10:11:14 AM
so, I clicked on "go to source of Article!!!" in red at the bottom of the page....

got this:

Not Found
The requested URL /pub/{permalink} was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.

_________________________________________________ _____________
fortunately

the "go to source" at the top of the page works!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Drew4UTk on March 02, 2018, 10:27:19 AM
thank you, Sir... me gonna dig into that.  turns out I'm far from the worlds best coder!!!!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 02, 2018, 12:45:46 PM
As God is my witness, Davison needs to stop creating 9 block/charge situations a game. He’s to valuable to be doing it as a damn freshman. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 02, 2018, 01:09:52 PM
As a person who tries to avoid talking officials, there were several calls in that half I did not find agreeable. I say that acknowledging my bias eyes might well have missed some that benefitted my team. 

That said, I can understand why. MSU is much bigger and more athletic. UW players should be getting bounced off them and swatted, and thus some do. That 3 before half was quite irksome. Kid is a dang killer. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 02, 2018, 01:17:59 PM
MSU is also getting some gratuitous second chances. Credit to them and bad on UW, but not the kind of thing an underdog can afford
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 02, 2018, 01:21:32 PM
Well if Aleem Ford is going to start randomly scoring...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 02, 2018, 01:34:32 PM
Well if Aleem Ford is going to start randomly scoring...
He does that sometimes. It’s weird, he came in as this athletic seeming wing type.
This year the ONLY things he’s done well are shoot 3s and eat minutes. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 02, 2018, 01:45:11 PM
Eff. Pritzl pump faked himself out of a second good look today. I get it with MSU’s absurd shot blocking, but he’s pumped into blocks today’s.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 02, 2018, 01:50:46 PM
MSU's lack of perimeter options is owefully apparent during Langford's extended slump.

He had a good game on Senior Day against Illinois, but otherwise over his last 5 games, he's averaging about 5.5 ppg on 35ish% shooting
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 02, 2018, 01:58:36 PM
Welp, UW competed better than it should have. Some missed FTs late cost. MSU had enough multi-shot possessions I might lose my effing minds 

Oh well. Lost the shrimpy shooter late. Pleased with this team’s fight. Next year should be solid. On Wisconsin. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on March 02, 2018, 02:00:04 PM
Those missed FT's were KILLER!  You just can't miss that many FT's on the front end of 1+1's and expect to win.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 02, 2018, 02:01:12 PM
Shades of 2004?  Or was it 05?  When suddenly Alan Anderson couldn't make a FT and we lost to Iowa
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 02, 2018, 02:02:59 PM
That last possession was not ideal, but MSU played it well. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 02, 2018, 02:04:07 PM
We say it every year, but those games where you are playing your first, and your opponent is playing its second are incredibly dangerous.

In all 3 instances this year the underdog in that role has upset, or nearly pulled the upset.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 02, 2018, 02:46:43 PM
Wagner starts off with 8 points on 3-3 shooting with 2 rebounds and a block.  Rest of the team has no points, 0-3 from the floor, with a rebound
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 02, 2018, 03:06:24 PM
Nebraska looks like they want to play a few more home games
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 02, 2018, 03:16:30 PM
UNL basketball...  each time you start to believe, the program reminds you of its history.   
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on March 02, 2018, 03:19:20 PM
I was going to go with "Hate to burst your bubble Nebraska....Nevermind.  You're doing just fine doing that by yourself."
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 02, 2018, 03:24:26 PM
UNL is one team at home and one team on the road...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 02, 2018, 04:09:02 PM
oh well,  I much better season than everyone imagined

Miles saved his job for another year

I'm sure the NIT will be fun
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 02, 2018, 04:13:14 PM
Happ not playing any waiting game, said he's testing the NBA waters but if he doesn't get a 1st round grade, he's coming back.  I can't see him being a first round pick, he's not what NBA GMs are infatuated with.  That said, I could see him having a long career in the right spot.  He could be a good fit in a rotation at the end of the first round on a contender that isn't necessarily looking for the huge upside that he doesn't provide.  I don't know what the draft looks like, but I can't see a rebuilding team taking him really at any point.

He also said there's not a chance he seeks a grad transfer.  I know those rumors had been floated, not sure how reputably.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on March 03, 2018, 12:11:03 AM
What are the odds?

Every single game so far in this tournament, the team with the odd number seed has won.  The only exception was the IU / Rutgers game which had two even number seeds playing.

Final four teams playing are the 1, 3, 5, and 7 seeds.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 03, 2018, 12:28:07 AM
rooting for the underdog in a tourney is always fun, but if the 7 seed wins the tourney and gets the invite...

how about matching up with their old dance partner OSU a 4th time?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 03, 2018, 12:29:03 AM
What are the odds?

Every single game so far in this tournament, the team with the odd number seed has won.  The only exception was the IU / Rutgers game which had two even number seeds playing.

Final four teams playing are the 1, 3, 5, and 7 seeds.
I thought Rutgers over whoever they played on Wednesday was 14 over 11.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on March 03, 2018, 12:38:12 AM
Yup.  You're right.  I saw the graphic on the BTN Big Show and they excluded the Wednesday games.

Iowa beat Illinois also, which was another even seed win.

Still, the 1, 3, 5, & 7 finals is still kinda interesting / weird odds.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 03, 2018, 01:38:11 AM
Tony Carr player of the Year?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 03, 2018, 01:05:59 PM
All of the early rounds of the mid majors being available streaming online is heaven.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 03, 2018, 04:16:48 PM
MSU's lack of perimeter options is owefully apparent during Langford's extended slump.

He had a good game on Senior Day against Illinois, but otherwise over his last 5 games, he's averaging about 5.5 ppg on 35ish% shooting
And UM overplayed Winston, and gave Langford open looks all afternoon, and dared him to shoot them out of that strategy.  1-8 from the floor later, I'd say he didn't do that.
That game was frighteningly similar to the first one.  UM coming out storming ot start the 2nd half, MSU mounting a couple a spurts to get it to within one possession, but never over the top.  UM pulling away late.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 03, 2018, 05:26:18 PM
Purdue sloppy to start. Penn State failing to take advantage.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 03, 2018, 05:27:11 PM
If MSU donates $40 to charity...

...do they get moved on to the finals over Michigan?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 03, 2018, 06:27:27 PM
If MSU donates $40 to charity...

...do they get moved on to the finals over Michigan?
I think we both know the answer is no.
If you could overturn every postseason faceplant with a donation, Keady and Painter would have bankrupted Purdue years ago
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 03, 2018, 07:08:58 PM
PSU showing they are a very average team. How did they beat OSU all three times???

Maybe OSU is also very average and played lights against the top 2 teams in the conference? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 03, 2018, 07:21:52 PM
PSU showing they are a very average team. How did they beat OSU all three times???

Maybe OSU is also very average and played lights against the top 2 teams in the conference?
Sometimes teams are just matchup nightmares.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 03, 2018, 08:23:44 PM
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/84/6a/50/846a50ad388e0b8b8be96311e74ffd22--purdue-logo-sports-logos.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 03, 2018, 09:58:04 PM
PSU showing they are a very average team. How did they beat OSU all three times???

Maybe OSU is also very average and played lights against the top 2 teams in the conference?
Ehh, per KenPom, PSU is No. 30, OSU is 16. It's a little weird, but not necessarily a sign of much. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 03, 2018, 10:09:06 PM
Happ not playing any waiting game, said he's testing the NBA waters but if he doesn't get a 1st round grade, he's coming back.  I can't see him being a first round pick, he's not what NBA GMs are infatuated with.  That said, I could see him having a long career in the right spot.  He could be a good fit in a rotation at the end of the first round on a contender that isn't necessarily looking for the huge upside that he doesn't provide.  I don't know what the draft looks like, but I can't see a rebuilding team taking him really at any point.

He also said there's not a chance he seeks a grad transfer.  I know those rumors had been floated, not sure how reputably.
There was a lot floating around, so I'm guessing he just wanted everything out there. 
I don't really think he'll play in the league. He's a below-the-rim post scorer who can't shoot. As a role player, he doesn't really have those one or two skills to hang his hat on. His passing is plus for the position, but the inability to space or leap as a rim runner is an issue. It's good he goes through it, as he's been in school four years, but I doubt he goes. He'll make good money overseas for a long time if he wants to. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 04, 2018, 03:01:56 PM
Radford, wow.  Love this week.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 04, 2018, 10:42:50 PM
Well, with the experience returning and the way this Purdue team played earlier in the season, they've now disappointed on 2 of 3 season goals. No regular seasons or BTT championship.

Without a final four, this season is a big time failure. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on March 05, 2018, 12:34:09 AM
Hell of a week for Michigan.... I still can't believe they repeated what they did last year, winning 4 games in 4 days, albeit as a 5 seed instead of an 8 this time (and no plane crash, of course). The one upside of the DC and NYC tourneys is that Michigan had a great turnout in both places compared to other fan bases.

This should clinch a 4 seed and a trip to Detroit if the tournament committee doesn't screw them over. Even if the 4/5 seed teams in other power 5 leagues do well in their conference tournaments that should still be the case (eg. Tennessee, Clemson & West Virginia).

Major credit to Teske for playing well today, especially, and also in the Iowa game when Wagner got called for some really dumb fouls. Also, Matthews has finally been playing reasonably well, too. Poole is in a slump, but he's still played good defense. Livers should recover from his ankle injury over the next 10 days presumably. When this team plays well, they're capable of beating anyone, especially this year with the lack of any great teams.....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 05, 2018, 07:39:56 AM
Ehh, per KenPom, PSU is No. 30, OSU is 16. It's a little weird, but not necessarily a sign of much.
I was looking at the 9-9 record for PSU and calling them average.
Congrats to TTUN on winning the BTT.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 05, 2018, 08:22:01 AM
This should clinch a 4 seed and a trip to Detroit if the tournament committee doesn't screw them over. Even if the 4/5 seed teams in other power 5 leagues do well in their conference tournaments that should still be the case (eg. Tennessee, Clemson & West Virginia).
4 seed, yes.  Detroit?  They'd have to jump 2 out of 3 of MSU, Purdue and Xavier, or have the committee decide to send Purdue and Xavier to Cincinnati or Pittsburgh as being only marginally farther than Detroit for them
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 05, 2018, 08:46:55 AM
Apparently Mark Smith is transferring from Illinois.  Wonder how much of a difference he would have made if he had stuck with his silent to MSU.  Underwood seems like a good coach, but a big personality.  If that's not your style, I could see it getting old.  Remember he had a very short recruitment.  He was a big time baseball prospect, committed to Missouri, who blew out his arm and had only mid-major basketball offers.  Had a big senior year and got late offers from MSU, Illinois, Louisville and the like.  So between how quick everything happened, and Underwood coming in late, there probably was very little relationship built up there.  He commitment was supposedly 100% about playing close to home.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 05, 2018, 09:19:44 AM
Palm and Lunardi updated their brackets...

Both have Purdue as a 2 seed; Lunardi has them in Detroit, Palm has them in Nashville

Lunardi has MSU as a 3 seed in Nashville; Palm as a 2 seed in Detroit

Lunardi has UM as a 3 seed in Wichita, Palm has them as a 4 in San Diego

Both have OSU as a 5 seed

Lunardi has PSU as #6 out, Nebraska as #8 out; Palm only does a first 4 out, and has neither
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 05, 2018, 09:41:06 AM
UNL is not going... they played like they wanted a couple more home games, and that is what they'll get in the NIT.

IMO, Purdue is not a #2 seed.   They're not the same team as a month ago.    Something is slightly off with them.. perhaps some unknown injuries?  Maybe teams figured them out?   I guess I'm still wondering why everyone has them so high when they've seem to have peaked a month ago...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on March 05, 2018, 10:54:30 AM
Apparently Mark Smith is transferring from Illinois.  Wonder how much of a difference he would have made if he had stuck with his silent to MSU.  Underwood seems like a good coach, but a big personality.  If that's not your style, I could see it getting old.  Remember he had a very short recruitment.  He was a big time baseball prospect, committed to Missouri, who blew out his arm and had only mid-major basketball offers.  Had a big senior year and got late offers from MSU, Illinois, Louisville and the like.  So between how quick everything happened, and Underwood coming in late, there probably was very little relationship built up there.  He commitment was supposedly 100% about playing close to home.
I think Illinois will be seeing a handful of transfers today or this week.  If Mark Smith wants to be a PG, it is probably not going to happen at Illinois.  John Groce and Underwood are clearly different types of guys with different coaching styles.  If Mark Smith isn't a fit with that style, best of luck to him somewhere else.  He was a liability on defense and lacked confidence in his offense.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on March 05, 2018, 11:25:36 AM
UNL is not going... they played like they wanted a couple more home games, and that is what they'll get in the NIT.

IMO, Purdue is not a #2 seed.   They're not the same team as a month ago.    Something is slightly off with them.. perhaps some unknown injuries?  Maybe teams figured them out?   I guess I'm still wondering why everyone has them so high when they've seem to have peaked a month ago...
A)  They've had 4 losses, but three of those were to top 15 teams, so I'm not too worried.  The fourth was to a decent Wisconsin team that gave MSU everything they could handle.

B)  People have figured out that the way to beat Purdue is to let Issac Haas have all the points he wants, and basically defend the three point line again Vince Edwards, Carsen Edwards, and Dakota Mathias.  PJ Thompson is not a scoring threat right now.

C)  Vince Edwards admitted after the Rutgers win that he is still not 100%.  His ankle is still a little stiff and he does not have the same explosion right now that he had mid-season.  It's supposedly affected his rebounding in particular.  Hopefully the 10 days off will help get him back to 100%.

Strangely enough, losing to Michigan kinda improved their profile.  Michigan is now a top 10 team, and even with the loss, that still added two top 10 regular season wins to Purdue's profile.  They still have 10 Kenpom top 50 wins and no bad losses.  Not a lot of teams can claim that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 05, 2018, 11:49:37 AM
PSU showing they are a very average team. How did they beat OSU all three times???

Maybe OSU is also very average and played lights against the top 2 teams in the conference?
The conference being weak makes it really tough to tell.  Ohio State finished 15-3 but did so with only three high quality wins:
The Buckeye's four B1G losses were:

How good were the Buckeyes?  Who knows.  Two reasonable arguments:
Between unbalanced schedules and a weak B1G the Buckeyes have only played four games against top-62 RPI teams since conference play resumed.  The sample size really isn't big enough to feel very confident.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 05, 2018, 11:49:41 AM
I am completely nonplussed about this tourney thing.  A whole week?  Man...My calendar is turned upside down.  I used to be able to watch the B1G title game, then the selection, then go to work on my bracket.  Now I don't know what to do.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 05, 2018, 11:57:19 AM
4 seed, yes.  Detroit?  They'd have to jump 2 out of 3 of MSU, Purdue and Xavier, or have the committee decide to send Purdue and Xavier to Cincinnati or Pittsburgh as being only marginally farther than Detroit for them
I was going to point out the same thing.  As I see it, Michigan has almost no chance at playing their first weekend NCAA games in Detroit.  The simple fact is that there are going to be way too many Eastern teams relative to Eastern first weekend sites.  
Lunardi right now has:
Charlotte:
Pittsburgh:
Detroit:
Nashville:
Lunardi has Michigan as a #3 seed which is fairly likely but it really doesn't matter for location.  Charlotte, Pittsburgh, and Detroit are booked by #1 and #2 seeds that Michigan has little or no chance of passing.  IMHO, the best-case-scenario for Michigan is to get sent to Nashville.  Otherwise they will be way out west in Wichita (where Lunardi has them), Dallas, San Diego, or Boise.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 05, 2018, 12:01:45 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXcUIQ9WkAAR3pX.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXe2jufVAAA614l.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXcx8FVV4AAK68N.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXaxUTsXcAAaWWx.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DW7GhITX4AA1D_j.jpg)

Horizon League is down to the Final Four; 8 seed Cleveland St vs 4 Oakland, 2 Wright St vs 6 Milwaukee. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 05, 2018, 12:06:13 PM
As an Ohio State fan who went to NYC it sucked to see my team lose in their first game but I take some comfort in the fact that none of the teams playing for the first time against at team that played the day before did very well.  It happened six times:
Thursday, March 1:
Friday, March 2:

Teams facing that situation went 3-3 with the three winners winning by 7, by 3, and in OT.  In theory all six should have won easily.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 06, 2018, 10:12:03 AM
I've watched a few more BigEast games of late... I've enjoyed their basketball this year.   Some quality teams in the BE.   I'll probably watch their tourney over all the rest.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 06, 2018, 10:12:45 AM
grillrat.. thanks
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 06, 2018, 10:14:37 AM
I've watched a few more BigEast games of late... I've enjoyed their basketball this year.   Some quality teams in the BE.   I'll probably watch their tourney over all the rest.
I've loved FOX's coverage of the Big East the last few years.  It was my go to tourney if the Big Ten game wasn't interesting, and with the Big Ten off, I assume I'll watch quite a bit of that league.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 06, 2018, 10:15:02 AM
Lunardi's latest has Texas, Alabama, USC and UCLA in Dayton.

Can we cancel and replace it with a 4 team football tourney?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 06, 2018, 10:20:37 AM
bama is not that good.   I'd predict UNL on a neutral court. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 06, 2018, 10:22:44 AM
bama is not that good.   I'd predict UNL on a neutral court.  
Lotta football helmet power sitting on his 12 team bubble.  Bama, Texas, USC, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Penn State, UCLA.  Hell, even Boise State has Group of 5 helmet power.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 06, 2018, 10:27:15 AM
Thanks for including UNL, but I think they're off the bubble.  A lot can happen this week, but if I was objective, PSU is in over UNL. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 06, 2018, 11:37:09 AM
Neither are getting in.  PSU is probably in 'better' shape, but they'd need epic meltdowns by ND and Syracuse today, a L'ville loss tomorrow, and losses by Okie St (vs OU), Baylor (vs WVU) and Texas (vs ISU) at the min to possibly back in.  


Thanks for including UNL, but I think they're off the bubble.  A lot can happen this week, but if I was objective, PSU is in over UNL.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 06, 2018, 05:29:02 PM
Updated composite computer poll through the Big Ten Tournament. 56 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Virginia (1)
2.Villanova (2)
3.Duke (3)
4.Cincinnati (8)
5.PURDUE (5)
6.MICHIGAN STATE (4)
7.Xavier (9)
8.Kansas (6)
9.North Carolina (7)
10.MICHIGAN (17)
11.Gonzaga (11)
12.Auburn (10)
13.Tennessee (15)
14.Texas Tech (12)
15.Wichita State (13)
16.West Virginia (14)
17.OHIO STATE (16)
18.Clemson (18)
19.TCU (20)
20.Kentucky (19)
21.Florida (-)
22.Houston (23)
23.Arizona (21)
24.Nevada (25)
25.Seton Hall (-)
-
45.Penn State (46)
55.Nebraska (53)
56.Maryland (52)
81.Wisconsin (86)
84.Indiana (76)
96.Northwestern (97)
106.Iowa (111)
113.Illinois (108)
114.Minnesota (107)
137.Rutgers (156)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 06, 2018, 05:53:24 PM
Neither are getting in.  PSU is probably in 'better' shape, but they'd need epic meltdowns by ND and Syracuse today, a L'ville loss tomorrow, and losses by Okie St (vs OU), Baylor (vs WVU) and Texas (vs ISU) at the min to possibly back in.  
Does it help or hurt Penn State that all of their good wins came against Ohio State?  Conversely, does it help or hurt Ohio State that all of their bad losses came against Penn State?  
I mean both questions as compared to having the same record but with different opponents?  
By RPI, Penn State's three best wins (by far*) are:
Ohio State's three worst losses (by far^) are:

Hypothetically, if Penn State had won the home game over Ohio State but lost the other two but also won:
Would that be better, worse, or about the same for PSU's NCAA chances?  It would have little or no impact on their RPI.  

Similarly, hypothetically, if Ohio State had won the home and neutral court games over Penn State but also lost:
Would that be better, worse, or about the same for tOSU's NCAA seed?  It would have little or no impact on their RPI.  

In considering this question please ignore the impact that these changes would have had on other games (ie, PSU not playing PU if they lost to tOSU in the BTT and both PSU and tOSU having different later round opponents if they won/lost preseason tournament games against aTm and Stanford.  I'm simply asking how we think the committee will view the three wins / three losses.  I could make a reasonable argument either way and I'm curious how the committee will view it.  

*After the THREE wins over #21 tOSU, PSU's next best RPI wins were:

^After the THREE losses to #80 PSU, tOSU's next worst RPI losses were:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 06, 2018, 06:39:20 PM
All Ohio Horizon Ccg tonight.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 06, 2018, 08:59:54 PM

Wright St beat Cleveland St in the Horizon Ccg, claiming an auto-bid. 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXmt8EvVQAALZRw.jpg)

---------------------------------------------

The Mac Tourney is rounding into form.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DXkwCpOVwAAeXn6.jpg)

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 06, 2018, 10:32:07 PM
The Jackrabbits are going to cause someone fits in the tourney. Tall, inside-out NBA prospect in Dahm, athletic guards, and an entire team that can shoot the lights out. I am assuming they’ll be a popular upset pick on the 12 or 13 line. I would hate to see Michigan as a 4 with them. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 07, 2018, 10:41:55 AM
Does it help or hurt Penn State that all of their good wins came against Ohio State?  Conversely, does it help or hurt Ohio State that all of their bad losses came against Penn State?  
I mean both questions as compared to having the same record but with different opponents?  
By RPI, Penn State's three best wins (by far*) are:
  • At #21 Ohio State
  • Vs #21 Ohio State (neutral court)
  • Vs #21 Ohio State
Ohio State's three worst losses (by far^) are:
  • Vs #80 Penn State
  • Vs #80 Penn State (neutral court)
  • At #80 Penn State

Hypothetically, if Penn State had won the home game over Ohio State but lost the other two but also won:
  • At #15 Michigan State, and
  • Vs #23 aTm (neutral court)
Would that be better, worse, or about the same for PSU's NCAA chances?  It would have little or no impact on their RPI.  

Similarly, hypothetically, if Ohio State had won the home and neutral court games over Penn State but also lost:
  • Vs #72 Stanford (neutral court), and
  • Vs #92 William&Mary
Would that be better, worse, or about the same for tOSU's NCAA seed?  It would have little or no impact on their RPI.  

In considering this question please ignore the impact that these changes would have had on other games (ie, PSU not playing PU if they lost to tOSU in the BTT and both PSU and tOSU having different later round opponents if they won/lost preseason tournament games against aTm and Stanford.  I'm simply asking how we think the committee will view the three wins / three losses.  I could make a reasonable argument either way and I'm curious how the committee will view it.  

*After the THREE wins over #21 tOSU, PSU's next best RPI wins were:
  • Over #63 Nebraska at home.  
  • Over #70 Maryland at home.  
  • Over #95 Montana at home.  

^After the THREE losses to #80 PSU, tOSU's next worst RPI losses were:
  • To #45 Butler on a neutral court.  
  • To #30 Gonzaga on a neutral court.  
  • To #13 Michigan on the road.  

I have to think, purely from a subjective look at this (and let's be honest, the committee can be quite subjective at times even by their own admission) that diversifying those wins would have been better.  It simply appears PSU matches up quite well with OSU and has their number.  That's it.  I think showing they could have beaten a Michigan, aTm or NC State out of conference, one of the late games against Purdue, would have shown they aren't just a simple 1:1 matchup with OSU.  
PSU will miss this tourney for one of two reasons:
1.  Bad losses to Rider and Minne at home
2.  Missed chances on the road at Purdue, home to Michigan and the Purdue game at MSG.  
I believe if either would have happened (beat both teams in scenario 1, or win one of the games in scenario 2), they are in.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 07, 2018, 12:26:37 PM
The Jackrabbits are going to cause someone fits in the tourney. Tall, inside-out NBA prospect in Dahm, athletic guards, and an entire team that can shoot the lights out. I am assuming they’ll be a popular upset pick on the 12 or 13 line. I would hate to see Michigan as a 4 with them.
I said that last year, and put my money where my mouth was, by picking them to upset Gonzaga as a 16 over a 1.  First time in my life I had ever picked a 15 or a 16.  Instead Gonzaga whipped them by 20.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 07, 2018, 12:27:22 PM
I think Illinois will be seeing a handful of transfers today or this week.  If Mark Smith wants to be a PG, it is probably not going to happen at Illinois.  John Groce and Underwood are clearly different types of guys with different coaching styles.  If Mark Smith isn't a fit with that style, best of luck to him somewhere else.  He was a liability on defense and lacked confidence in his offense.
Rumors Leron Black may do the grad transfer thing and follow him out.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 07, 2018, 03:40:06 PM
I have to think, purely from a subjective look at this (and let's be honest, the committee can be quite subjective at times even by their own admission) that diversifying those wins would have been better.  It simply appears PSU matches up quite well with OSU and has their number.  That's it.  I think showing they could have beaten a Michigan, aTm or NC State out of conference, one of the late games against Purdue, would have shown they aren't just a simple 1:1 matchup with OSU.  
PSU will miss this tourney for one of two reasons:
1.  Bad losses to Rider and Minne at home
2.  Missed chances on the road at Purdue, home to Michigan and the Purdue game at MSG.  
I believe if either would have happened (beat both teams in scenario 1, or win one of the games in scenario 2), they are in.
I have a feeling that you are right.  I wonder, however, how that will impact tOSU's seed.  In theory, if it is a negative for PSU that they "only" beat tOSU three times rather than beating three different tournament teams then it should be a positive for tOSU that they "only" lost to the same team three times.  Ie, logically you would have to choose one of the following three positions:
However, the committee isn't required to be logical and, as you mentioned, they can be quite subjective.  My guess is that they'll choose a logically flawed option:
My guess is NIT for PSU and a #6 seed for Ohio State.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 08, 2018, 01:19:33 PM
Agreed Medina, I don't think OSU should be punished whatsoever for losing three times to PSU.  It just happens at times that some teams have the other's number and the whole body of work indicates that OSU is at minimum a Top 20 team, putting them on the 5 line in my opinion.  

PSU just didn't get the upsets yesterday (thanks VaTech, what a bedwetting that was) to keep them alive.  It's pretty much a done deal now. I myself would put PSU in over:  ND, Louisville, Syracuse, OU, Okie St, Texas and Baylor, but I doubt the committee will think so.  PSU just lacks that other definitive data point unfortunately.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 08, 2018, 09:15:46 PM
If your team is on the bubble Middle Tennessee didn’t do you any favors tonight.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 08, 2018, 10:47:24 PM
If your team is on the bubble Middle Tennessee didn’t do you any favors tonight.
Worthless trash school anyway.  :96:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 08, 2018, 11:19:40 PM
My EMU Hurons with a 32-6 run to end the game, erasing Akron's 18 point lead.

They were probably the MACs best program in the 90s, but off the top of my head, this is their first trip even to the MAC semis since 1998.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 09, 2018, 12:08:37 AM
Worthless trash school anyway.  :96:

Really?  Why?  I must have missed something.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 09, 2018, 12:15:49 AM


When they beat MSU in the tourney 2 years ago.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 09, 2018, 05:20:55 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX0bQyWVwAADI-4.jpg:large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX3BeaTXUAIrjg5.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 09, 2018, 06:51:53 AM

When they beat MSU in the tourney 2 years ago.
LOL.  I forgot.  I was too busy wallowing in Stephen F. Austin beating WVU that year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 09, 2018, 10:49:34 AM
Maryland's RPI just fell from #74 to #76 overnight, meaning MSU, Purdue and UM all lose one Quadrant 1 win, because a road win over Maryland no longer qualifies.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 09, 2018, 11:28:21 AM
(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi4.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FkdOPBP9vuZA%2Fmqdefault.jpg&hash=8c324bc85a65fc56c793c629f98f9ad5)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 09, 2018, 12:00:53 PM
Maryland's RPI just fell from #74 to #76 overnight, meaning MSU, Purdue and UM all lose one Quadrant 1 win, because a road win over Maryland no longer qualifies.
This illustrates my main objection to this system.  I don't like the hard cut-offs.  
This system effectively treats a road game against #1 as being equivalent to a road game against #75.  At the same time, a road win against #75 (or 74, UMD as of yesterday) is MUCH better than a road win over #76.  
We all know that beating #75 on the road is obviously NOT the same thing as beating #1 on the road.  Conversely, we all know that beating #75 or #76 on the road is almost exactly the same thing.  
More sophisticated computer rankings can deal with this easily by simply treating a road win over #1 as being slightly better than a road win over #2 which is slightly better than a road win over #3, etc, etc.  
In a more sophisticated system the difference between beating #74 Maryland and beating #76 Maryland is negligible as it should be.  In the system we have, the difference between beating #74 Maryland and beating #76 Maryland is a major issue.  It shouldn't be.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 09, 2018, 12:03:35 PM
FWIW:
I feel the same way when people talk about wins over "ranked teams" in football.  Beating #1 is a MUCH bigger deal than beating #25 and beating #25 is essentially equivalent to beating #26 but talking of "ranked wins" treats the wins over #1 and #25 as equivalents while treating the win over #26 as equivalent to beating the worst team in FBS and/or an FCS team.  Similarly, in football, the more sophisticated computer systems handle this appropriately by treating a win over #1 as slightly better than a win over #2 and a win over #2 as slightly better than a win over #3, etc.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 09, 2018, 12:09:47 PM
This illustrates my main objection to this system.  I don't like the hard cut-offs.  
This system effectively treats a road game against #1 as being equivalent to a road game against #75.  At the same time, a road win against #75 (or 74, UMD as of yesterday) is MUCH better than a road win over #76.  
We all know that beating #75 on the road is obviously NOT the same thing as beating #1 on the road.  Conversely, we all know that beating #75 or #76 on the road is almost exactly the same thing.  
More sophisticated computer rankings can deal with this easily by simply treating a road win over #1 as being slightly better than a road win over #2 which is slightly better than a road win over #3, etc, etc.  
In a more sophisticated system the difference between beating #74 Maryland and beating #76 Maryland is negligible as it should be.  In the system we have, the difference between beating #74 Maryland and beating #76 Maryland is a major issue.  It shouldn't be.  
Yeah, that's what I don't get.  The quality of wins is factored into whatever computer ranking system you use.  So why throw this in on top of it?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 09, 2018, 02:55:35 PM
Tyler Cook putting his name in the draft, but not hiring an agent
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 09, 2018, 03:25:52 PM

The Bearcats take down the 'Stangs. 

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX3lvuzVoAAwfaW.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 09, 2018, 03:33:28 PM
Money it's gotta be the shoes!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 09, 2018, 03:38:19 PM
Cincy coach Mick Cronin throwing shade at Pitino

Cincinnati coach Mick Cronin wore a pullover for today's American tournament game against SMU in honor of Bob Huggins, one of his mentors. "I could have still been banging around at Woodard High School if he didn't hire me," Cronin said. He did bring suits for the weekend, though. "Tomorrow, I'll wear a real expensive suit like Rick Pitino," he said.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 09, 2018, 03:41:25 PM

He should go for Ketchup, since the other two have already covered Mustard and Mayo. 

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/Y23LdxhY_3Etawb.XqlrMw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9NjA4O2g9NDUzO2lsPXBsYW5l/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Yahoo/ept_sports_ncaab_experts-847855796-1202847298.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 09, 2018, 03:57:02 PM
FWIW:
I feel the same way when people talk about wins over "ranked teams" in football.  Beating #1 is a MUCH bigger deal than beating #25 and beating #25 is essentially equivalent to beating #26 but talking of "ranked wins" treats the wins over #1 and #25 as equivalents while treating the win over #26 as equivalent to beating the worst team in FBS and/or an FCS team.  Similarly, in football, the more sophisticated computer systems handle this appropriately by treating a win over #1 as slightly better than a win over #2 and a win over #2 as slightly better than a win over #3, etc.  
Yeah, and we constantly talk about wins over ranked at the time teams, despite what else happens to them. I remember in football, for a long time a win over a ranked Illinois team was Purdue's most recent "ranked road win". It might still be. That game was right before Illinois took a 6-game losing streak. So it's not all that big of an accomplishment, but it was a ranked win on the road, dammit!
The thing is that people are dumb. We like hard cutoffs, because we like to categorize things. "Beating a ranked team" means something to us emotionally, even if it's the #23 team and they drop out of the rankings the next week. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 09, 2018, 04:14:15 PM
Yeah, and we constantly talk about wins over ranked at the time teams, despite what else happens to them. I remember in football, for a long time a win over a ranked Illinois team was Purdue's most recent "ranked road win". It might still be. That game was right before Illinois took a 6-game losing streak. So it's not all that big of an accomplishment, but it was a ranked win on the road, dammit!
The thing is that people are dumb. We like hard cutoffs, because we like to categorize things. "Beating a ranked team" means something to us emotionally, even if it's the #23 team and they drop out of the rankings the next week.
Oh I get that but I think those are also two very different things.  
A Purdue fan (your example), bragging about a "road win over a ranked team" even though said "ranked" team subsequently lost their next five games and finished sub .500 and unranked doesn't bother me too much.  
What does annoy me is when the people responsible for NCAA Tournament selection and/or seeding or the people responsible for CFP selection talk about wins over "ranked" teams.  Then it actually matters.  At least in the CFP era it seems to have improved somewhat because people are mostly talking now about wins over teams ranked at the end of the season.  That is obviously a lot better than talking about wins over ranked at the time teams. Still, it suffers from the hard cut-off issue of treating wins over #1 or #25 as equivalent and also treating wins over #26 or #126 as equivalent.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 10, 2018, 06:01:28 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX5qYL6XUAMCj9U.jpg:large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX4GgWnWsAEt6qH.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 10, 2018, 03:53:32 PM
The SEC still using the It Just Means More motto, even painting it on the court, is like the Big Ten returning to NYC next year.  Just really refusing to acknowledge something in reality is so much dumber than it appears in a meeting.

Also enjoying the side banner noting they have the most Quadrant 1 and 2 Wins.  Aside from the "why?" I also ask why?  If you know what that even means, you also know it's a dumb metric and you know the SEC was pretty good in basketball this year for the first time in like a decade, and therefore don't need to be told, and can only laugh at it.  If you do need to be informed the SEC was good, then that message is for you...except you don't know what a Quadrant 1 win means, so the message is lost.

So you've got a message that is going to mean nothing to the target audience, and is going to be laughed at by everyone else.  Marketing 101 I suppose.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 10, 2018, 06:49:38 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DX9lfNAW4AAjlFo.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 11, 2018, 04:25:29 PM
Credit to Sampson, he might’ve been sketchy in he past, but he’s built the Cougars into a pretty damn good team. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 11, 2018, 05:36:52 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYCcNYWX4AAsHaw.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 11, 2018, 06:45:45 PM
I guess putting Syracuse in is easier than listening to Boeheim whine.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 11, 2018, 08:20:36 PM
Buckeyes get a tough draw going out west in the 5/12 death matchup and then potentially facing 4 seed Gonzaga (#8 overall on KenPom). If they get through that, though, could get a pretty fun duel with Xavier.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 11, 2018, 09:37:21 PM
Buckeyes get a tough draw going out west in the 5/12 death matchup and then potentially facing 4 seed Gonzaga (#8 overall on KenPom). If they get through that, though, could get a pretty fun duel with Xavier.
Yeah, that's really rough.
MSU can't beat Duke, so that's as far as I'm taking them, but aside from that I can't complain, aside from MSU being a 2 seed by basically every metric except RPI.  I think Kansas is the weakest 1, and I struggle to buy into Auburn.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 11, 2018, 10:53:15 PM
How the hell does a 19-13 Big Ten team not even make the NIT?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 12, 2018, 12:04:27 AM
How the hell does a 19-13 Big Ten team not even make the NIT?
Maryland? Wasn't there an abundance of Regular season champs that filled those at large spots?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 12, 2018, 12:22:23 AM
Nebraska fans sour about not hosting (NIT).   I'll admit, I truly do not care.   I am a total cliff's notes college basketball fan (as I age).  I'm glad to see Marquette taking their home game at the 'AL'  (an on campus gym where the women hoops and vball teams play). I assume they had no choice with a  likely Bradley Center conflict.

Trivial of course, but I have to think the NIT scheduling logistics are quite a challenge for whomever.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 12, 2018, 07:46:42 AM
How the hell does a 19-13 Big Ten team not even make the NIT?
The selection committee forgot about them. It's hard to remember teams that don't play for over a week.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 12, 2018, 08:28:29 AM
Maryland? Wasn't there an abundance of Regular season champs that filled those at large spots?
There were 12.
10 last year, 15 in 2016, 12 in 2015, 13 in 2014.
So it seems about average
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 12, 2018, 08:59:30 AM
Maybe the NIT has a wink-nod agreement with the CBA/CIT/etc to pass on all but a token Big Ten team, since they routinely big time the smaller tourneys. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 12, 2018, 09:05:38 AM
Maybe the NIT has a wink-nod agreement with the CBA/CIT/etc to pass on all but a token Big Ten team, since they routinely big time the smaller tourneys.
I don't think any P5 conferences accept CIT/CBI invites
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 12, 2018, 10:05:03 AM
Didn't Illinois play in one of those things recently?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 12, 2018, 10:54:02 AM
Didn't Illinois play in one of those things recently?
As far as I can tell, Colorado in 2015 is the only P5 school to play in either in the last 3 years.

EDIT: PSU, Oregon State and Texas A&M played in the CBI 4 years ago; Purdue and Texas did in 2013; Oregon State, Washington State and Pitt in 2012.

So it seems like until 2014, there were like 2 or 3 of the 16 in the CBS that were P5 schools (although never Illinois), but since then, it stopped.  The CIT is only for mid-majors I believe
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 12, 2018, 11:04:22 AM
Are we going to do a CFB51 bracket challenge?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 12, 2018, 11:54:27 AM
It seems to me that Ohio State's draw is incredibly unfavorable geographically. The other #5 seeds got (potential #4 seed second round match-ups):

All the #5 seeds are far from home and I expected that but the other three all seem reasonably neutral. Then for some reason tOSU got Gonzaga just a few hours from their campus and, BY FAR, the closest first/second round site to Gonzaga.
If the Buckeyes manage to get to the Regional it is in LA but at least there the likely opponents would also be FAR from home (Xavier, UNC, Michigan).
Normally I would like the potential second round rematch because the Buckeyes lost earlier this season but after PSU part II and PSU part III I'm not so sure.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 12, 2018, 12:43:36 PM
Are we going to do a CFB51 bracket challenge?
@jhetfield99 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1625) does one every year... I'm sure he can hook you up with the info.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on March 12, 2018, 03:34:16 PM
Bummed that Michigan didn't get the Detroit region, especially compared to Sparty, but they definitely got some favorable matchups. Montana is underseeded, but they have no good non-con wins (but came close against Washington), and there are only a few halfway-decent teams in the Big Sky. I watched the replay of their championship game against Eastern Washington, and I definitely think Michigan matches up well with them..... Houston and San Diego State are dangerous but most of their best wins are at home. Michigan probably matches up better with Houston, which is a smaller team that relies more on forcing turnovers..... North Carolina would be tough, of course, but when they played in the regular season, Brooks was the starting PG and neither Livers nor Brooks were getting much playing time, nor had Teske emerged as a quality backup center. If they get past them, I think Xavier and Gonzaga are both very beatable. Michigan would almost certainly have the home court advantage in LA for those games with so many Michigan grads and fans in California.

We'll see....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 12, 2018, 03:51:43 PM
Bummed that Michigan didn't get the Detroit region, especially compared to Sparty, but they definitely got some favorable matchups. Montana is underseeded, but they have no good non-con wins (but came close against Washington), and there are only a few halfway-decent teams in the Big Sky. I watched the replay of their championship game against Eastern Washington, and I definitely think Michigan matches up well with them..... Houston and San Diego State are dangerous but most of their best wins are at home. Michigan probably matches up better with Houston, which is a smaller team that relies more on forcing turnovers..... North Carolina would be tough, of course, but when they played in the regular season, Brooks was the starting PG and neither Livers nor Brooks were getting much playing time, nor had Teske emerged as a quality backup center. If they get past them, I think Xavier and Gonzaga are both very beatable. Michigan would almost certainly have the home court advantage in LA for those games with so many Michigan grads and fans in California.

We'll see....
I think UM and MSU are in the same boat, that I'm not picking them to get past the Sweet 16, but I do think whoever wins those games (MSU-Duke or UM-UNC) will reach the Final 4, if not more.  Those are just really bad matchups for each of them, at such an early stage.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 12, 2018, 04:18:14 PM
Bummed that Michigan didn't get the Detroit region, especially compared to Sparty, 
A couple pages ago you said "This should clinch a 4 seed and a trip to Detroit if the tournament committee doesn't screw them over. Even if the 4/5 seed teams in other power 5 leagues do well in their conference tournaments that should still be the case (eg. Tennessee, Clemson & West Virginia)."
ELA and I quickly pointed out that Michigan had almost no chance at playing their first/second round games in Detroit.  I realize that the Wolverines when 2-0 against the Spartans but I don't think you can rely that strongly on H2H, the Spartans were a better team on the whole.  
I hope the B1G at least gets multiple teams to the S16 again!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 12, 2018, 11:52:06 PM
Michigan may not have received Detroit but they got a better draw at 1-2-4 in their regional. I think Michigan is probably the better team right now, but the whole season is declared up front to add in - seemingly equally - week by week, so I don't fault the committee or think they got it wrong, though given RPI, the locations of the 2-0, and each team's list of top wins (all are values the committee appears to care about -- a conversation separate from whether RPI is flawed), I doubt their choice was easy. 
Michigan until February was an 8/9 seed. Michigan from the beginning of the February win streak until now is a 1 seed. It's a super weird year like that...except also something Beilein has shown. They have been building to peak form for awhile. Now we have to see how long they can maintain.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MichiFan87 on March 13, 2018, 12:56:04 AM
A couple pages ago you said "This should clinch a 4 seed and a trip to Detroit if the tournament committee doesn't screw them over. Even if the 4/5 seed teams in other power 5 leagues do well in their conference tournaments that should still be the case (eg. Tennessee, Clemson & West Virginia)."
ELA and I quickly pointed out that Michigan had almost no chance at playing their first/second round games in Detroit.  I realize that the Wolverines when 2-0 against the Spartans but I don't think you can rely that strongly on H2H, the Spartans were a better team on the whole.  
I hope the B1G at least gets multiple teams to the S16 again!
My precedent for that thought was that they were a 4 seed in 2013 when they played in the Pistons arena (along with MSU in their own regional). It's just an unfortunate reality that there are a disproportionate number of good teams in the Midwest and Northeast compared to the West, but the NCAA still could've done a better job of sending more top 4 seeds to places where their fans would be more likely to travel (not that Wichita or Boise are good locations for anyone except Gonzaga, since Wichita can't stay home).
Arizona probably should be in San Diego (not like it matters whether Wichita State or Auburn are there instead of Boise), Duke would probably rather be in Nashville while Xavier and Cincinnati would prefer Pittsburgh. It is how it is, though. Some other schools certainly have more reason to be upset with where they were seeded.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 13, 2018, 09:29:01 AM
So picks?

3 categories:
1.) First round upset picks (11 seeds or low, none of this 10 over a 7 garbage)
2.) How far do you have the Big Ten teams going
3.) Your Final 4 with National Title game

Upsets: Loyola over Miami; South Dakota State over Ohio State; NM State over Clemson; ASU/Cuse winner over TCU

Big Ten: OSU out 1st round; MSU and UM to Sweet 16; Purdue to Final 4

Final Four: Cincinnati, North Carolina, Purdue and Duke; Duke over Cincinnati for the title

I have about my normal number of 1st round upsets; then a lot of 2nd round chalk, but only one #1 seed (Kansas) surviving the Sweet 16
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 13, 2018, 11:03:00 AM
My precedent for that thought was that they were a 4 seed in 2013 when they played in the Pistons arena (along with MSU in their own regional). It's just an unfortunate reality that there are a disproportionate number of good teams in the Midwest and Northeast compared to the West, but the NCAA still could've done a better job of sending more top 4 seeds to places where their fans would be more likely to travel (not that Wichita or Boise are good locations for anyone except Gonzaga, since Wichita can't stay home).
Arizona probably should be in San Diego (not like it matters whether Wichita State or Auburn are there instead of Boise), Duke would probably rather be in Nashville while Xavier and Cincinnati would prefer Pittsburgh. It is how it is, though. Some other schools certainly have more reason to be upset with where they were seeded.
As per usual, they simply have too many Western first/second round sites.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 13, 2018, 11:18:24 AM
As per usual, they simply have too many Western first/second round sites.  
Yup, that's the problem.  Particularly when the Pac 12, WCC and Mountain West are so far down.  If not for that San Diego State upset in the MWC tournament, the Dayton games would be solely to determine if anything more than just the conference champ from each of those leagues got in.
Granted Wooden built an empire on the fact that the west coast was not good, at a time when the selections really were regionally based.
I saw a map of the 2017 field.  You could draw a line through the southern tip of Texas, and only 8 of the 68 schools were located west of that.  Just the states of Michigan, Indiana and Ohio produced 10 tourney teams.  You include Chicago up into Wisconsin you expand that to 13.  So if the West gets 2 sites, the Chicago-Indiana-Michigan-Ohio area alone should have 3+
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 13, 2018, 12:01:06 PM
Yup, that's the problem.  Particularly when the Pac 12, WCC and Mountain West are so far down.  If not for that San Diego State upset in he MWC tournament, the Dayton games would be solely to determine if anything more than just the conference champ from each of those leagues got in.
Granted Wooden built an empire on the fact that the west coast was not good, at a time when the selections really were regionally based.
I saw a map of the 2017 field.  You could draw a line through the southern tip of Texas, and only 8 of the 68 schools were located west of that.  Just the states of Michigan, Indiana and Ohio produced 10 tourney teams.  You include Chicago up into Wisconsin you expand that to 13.  So if the West gets 2 sites, the Chicago-Indiana-Michigan-Ohio area alone should have 3+
If you have a link to that map, I'd be interested in seeing it.  Nevermind, here is that map for the 2018 field (http://billsportsmaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/2018_ncaa-bk-tournament_march-madness_68-teams_map_e_.gif).  Some notes:
FWIW:  I get eight teams from Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio this year:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 13, 2018, 12:06:21 PM
I'm bullish on Michigan this year. I think they have the right makeup (toughness, desire, coaching, experience) to go pretty far in this thing.

As I was doing picks yesterday, I was still wondering how the F#$k UNC got a 2 seed and why Syracuse is in at all.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 13, 2018, 01:51:05 PM
I'm bullish on Michigan this year. I think they have the right makeup (toughness, desire, coaching, experience) to go pretty far in this thing.

As I was doing picks yesterday, I was still wondering how the F#$k UNC got a 2 seed and why Syracuse is in at all.
I have M and MSU in the Final Four.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 13, 2018, 01:55:29 PM
So picks?

3 categories:
1.) First round upset picks (11 seeds or low, none of this 10 over a 7 garbage)
2.) How far do you have the Big Ten teams going
3.) Your Final 4 with National Title game

Upsets: Loyola over Miami; South Dakota State over Ohio State; NM State over Clemson; ASU/Cuse winner over TCU

Big Ten: OSU out 1st round; MSU and UM to Sweet 16; Purdue to Final 4

Final Four: Cincinnati, North Carolina, Purdue and Duke; Duke over Cincinnati for the title

I have about my normal number of 1st round upsets; then a lot of 2nd round chalk, but only one #1 seed (Kansas) surviving the Sweet 16
My FF:  Michigan, Sparty, UVa, WVU.  UVa winning it all
 
Notable upsets:  Providence in E8 (over UNC, losing to M), SDSU over OSU, NMSU over Clemson (my 12/5), Loyola over Miami (I love MVC teams), URI over Duke

B1G: OSU out in first, Purdue E8, M and MSU in FF
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 13, 2018, 01:58:33 PM
I'm bullish on Michigan this year. I think they have the right makeup (toughness, desire, coaching, experience) to go pretty far in this thing.

As I was doing picks yesterday, I was still wondering how the F#$k UNC got a 2 seed and why Syracuse is in at all.
I have the Heels beating the Wolvies
I'm bullish on Sparty
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 13, 2018, 02:07:04 PM
My FF:  Michigan, Sparty, UVa, WVU.  UVa winning it all
 
Notable upsets:  Providence in E8 (over UNC, losing to M), SDSU over OSU, NMSU over Clemson (my 12/5), Loyola over Miami (I love MVC teams), URI over Duke

B1G: OSU out in first, Purdue E8, M and MSU in FF
In your scenario I like MSU and UM's chances a lot.  I think both are Final 4 caliber, but both got nightmare matchups in their Sweet 16 game.  I actually think if you switched them, I would pick both to win their other's region.  But since you have UNC and Duke both getting upset in the 2nd round, I would then pick both MSU and UM to upset the 1 seed and reach San Antonio
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 13, 2018, 02:36:55 PM
In your scenario I like MSU and UM's chances a lot.  I think both are Final 4 caliber, but both got nightmare matchups in their Sweet 16 game.  I actually think if you switched them, I would pick both to win their other's region.  But since you have UNC and Duke both getting upset in the 2nd round, I would then pick both MSU and UM to upset the 1 seed and reach San Antonio
Something about those two teams from Rhode Island that I really like.  I think both are going to be really tough outs.
Love the first good matchup tonight, the Bonnies and UCLA.  Bonnies are a dangerous bunch IMO.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 13, 2018, 04:23:02 PM
Bucknell benching Nathan Davis for a violation of team rules.

Only averaged 5.6 ppg and a 2.1 rpg, but played 22 mpg.  So on one hand that's pretty bad production for 22 mpg, on the other hand, he's 6'8", and those 22 minutes have to go somewhere.  Mid-majors usually aren't stocked with 6'8" guys.  Might be big advantage MSU in a closely called game, get both sides in foul trouble.

On the other hand, it might force Bucknell to go to a smaller lineup more than they want to, which MSU has struggled WAY more with this year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 13, 2018, 05:15:34 PM
Updated composite computer poll entering the NCAA Tournament. 67 rankings (last week in parenthesis)

1.Villanova (2)
2.Virginia (1)
3.Duke (3)
4.Cincinnati (4)
5.PURDUE (5)
6.MICHIGAN STATE (6)
7.Kansas (8)
8.North Carolina (9)
9.Xavier (7)
10.Gonzaga (11)
11.MICHIGAN (10)
12.Tennessee (13)
13.West Virginia (16)
14.Texas Tech (14)
15.Wichita State (15)
16.Kentucky (20)
17.Auburn (12)
18.Arizona (23)
19.OHIO STATE (17)
20.Houston (22)
21.Clemson (18)
22.TCU (19)
23.Florida (21)
24.Nevada (24)
25.Texas A&M (-)
-
43.Penn State (45)
56.Nebraska (55)
58.Maryland (56)
80.Wisconsin (81)
81.Indiana (84)
101.Northwestern (96)
109.Iowa (106)
113.Illinois (113)
115.Minnesota (114)
139.Rutgers (137)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 13, 2018, 06:50:26 PM
I had Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina, and Purdue, with UK over Duke
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 13, 2018, 10:03:38 PM
1.Upsets - New Mexico over Clemson, and ASU/Sy over TCU

2. B1G - OSU & UM out at 32, Purdue E8, MSU FF

3. FF - UVA, Gonzaga, Villanova, & MSU; Cavaliers over Wildcats

Bonus: Heh, I had ESPN do a "smart pick" for me, It has Villanova beating Cincinnati in the Final, and OSU and MSU as the other FF teams. And I thought I'd be giddy to see that Final Four so submitted it as another pick.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 13, 2018, 10:28:32 PM
My FF:  Michigan, Sparty, UVa, WVU.  UVa winning it all
 
Notable upsets:  Providence in E8 (over UNC, losing to M), SDSU over OSU, NMSU over Clemson (my 12/5), Loyola over Miami (I love MVC teams), URI over Duke

B1G: OSU out in first, Purdue E8, M and MSU in FF
In case you want to change that I’ll let you know Nova is a terrible matchup for WVU in the Sweet 16 (if they get that far).  Nova is basically a better version of Kansas, IMO.  And although in 120 minutes of basketball against KU this year WVU only trailed for about 20 minutes they still went 0-3 against the Jayhawks.
WVU can’t guard the 3 point line.  If/when teams break the press they get great looks at the basket and in the half court they habitually leave 3 point shooters to help on drives despite having possibly the best shot blocker in the country underneath to erase mistakes.  Appreciate the love but don’t want to see you get your bracket busted.;)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 13, 2018, 11:07:54 PM
UW's Andy Van Vliet to transfer. He came in with a lot of offensive promise. Had to sit his first year because of an NCAA thing and could never earn minutes.

Coaches said they set standards for defense/rebounding effort for Andy to play. He did not play. Kid had a nice game that might've needed to be featured too much. It's too bad. Hope he lands somewhere that can use him. Now hopefully UW can find a grad transfer (hopes against hope it's the South Dakota State kid). 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 14, 2018, 07:07:36 AM
UW's Andy Van Vliet to transfer. He came in with a lot of offensive promise. Had to sit his first year because of an NCAA thing and could never earn minutes.

Coaches said they set standards for defense/rebounding effort for Andy to play. He did not play. Kid had a nice game that might've needed to be featured too much. It's too bad. Hope he lands somewhere that can use him. Now hopefully UW can find a grad transfer (hopes against hope it's the South Dakota State kid).
Time for Krabby to earn his paycheck, although Gard recently said he'd like to balance the classes a little better moving forward. That's been an Achilles for a while now. We'll see.

All the best to Van Vliet, although I didn't appreciate the "thank you" omissions from his tweet.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: fezzador on March 14, 2018, 08:34:00 AM
So is UCLA going to bite the bullet and finally dump Alfraud?  He's not a good coach, but he keeps getting sweet gigs (sort of the Kiffin of MBB).  He needs to go back to the NBA as an assistant coach.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 14, 2018, 08:48:22 AM
So is UCLA going to bite the bullet and finally dump Alfraud?  He's not a good coach, but he keeps getting sweet gigs (sort of the Kiffin of MBB).  He needs to go back to the NBA as an assistant coach.
He's always been a good mid major coach.  He's just not a high major coach.
In his 10 years at SW Missouri State and New Mexico, his teams always overachieved.  He might just be better served there.
Although, looking up his career record, he had been better at UCLA than I would have guessed.  Already forgot they were 31-5 last year and reached the Sweet 16.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 14, 2018, 11:24:49 AM
I'm bullish on Michigan this year. I think they have the right makeup (toughness, desire, coaching, experience) to go pretty far in this thing.

As I was doing picks yesterday, I was still wondering how the F#$k UNC got a 2 seed and why Syracuse is in at all.
They have like 12 wins over teams in the field this year, including OOC wins over UM, OSU, and Tennessee.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 14, 2018, 11:49:51 AM
They have like 12 wins over teams in the field this year, including OOC wins over UM, OSU, and Tennessee.
Yes, but they also have 10 losses - some bad, one of which was at the hands of 29-4 MSU, which pounded them at a neutral site, and is a 3 seed.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 14, 2018, 12:26:08 PM
the committee looked at who you beat over any other metric.   And beating name schools also mattered.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: fezzador on March 14, 2018, 12:39:57 PM
He's always been a good mid major coach.  He's just not a high major coach.
In his 10 years at SW Missouri State and New Mexico, his teams always overachieved.  He might just be better served there.
Although, looking up his career record, he had been better at UCLA than I would have guessed.  Already forgot they were 31-5 last year and reached the Sweet 16.  
For a program as storied as UCLA, the expectations should be a lot higher than an occasional S16 run.  A couple of generations ago, they were the premier program in college hoops (and it wasn't even close), but now they're firmly behind the quartet of Duke, Kentucky, UNC, and Kansas.
And as weak as hoops are out West, there's no reason they shouldn't be dominating the PAC (or at least be neck-and-neck with Zona).
While I didn't specifically say Alford was a *bad* coach, he's hardly an elite one and almost certainly won't get the Bruins over the hump.  He had talent at Iowa but couldn't get the Hawks over the hump either.
IIRC, his dream job is Indiana and I don't think the Hoosiers want to touch him with a ten-foot pole.  If he gets the axe, maybe he can join Kiffy-kins at Florida Atlantic.  I'm sure he'd kill it over there (if they need a new coach that is).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 14, 2018, 02:46:48 PM
Bracket is already out, but as a comparison to how it would look just using the composite computer rankings.  As for Big Ten teams, Purdue, Michigan and Ohio State are correctly seeded as a 2, 3 and 5, but MSU is underseeded, should be a 2 also.  As for opponents, Purdue and Ohio State got a nice draw, getting CS Fullerton as a 15, when they should be a 16, and Ohio State getting South Dakota State as a 12, when they should be a 13.  Conversely, UM and MSU getting opponents as 14s, who should be 13s.  Oddly, MSU, UM and OSU are all facing teams who should be 13s.  FTR, last time MSU was underseeded based on this, and also faced an underseeded team, we got MTSU, so...

EASTSOUTH
1VillanovaVirginia1
16Tx So/NC CentralRadford/LIU16
PittsburghCharlotte
8MiamiRhode Island8
9USCKansas State9
.
5OHIO STATEAuburn5
12Murray StateBuffalo12
BoiseSan Diego
4KentuckyWichita State4
13S.D. StateUNC Greensboro13
.
3XavierMICHIGAN3
14Georgia StateMarshall14
NashvilleWichita
6FloridaTCU6
11Baylor/PENN STNC State11
.
7Texas A&MSeton Hall7
10Loyola(Ill)Florida State10
PittsburghWichita
2North CarolinaKansas2
15PennsylvaniaWright State15
---
WESTMIDWEST
1CincinnatiDuke1
16CS FullertonUMBC16
NashvilleCharlotte
8Saint Mary'sButler8
9LouisvilleTexas9
.
5ArizonaHouston5
12NM StateDavidson12
DallasSan Diego
4Texas TechWest Virginia4
13BucknellMontana13
.
3GonzagaTennessee3
14Stephen F. AustinCharleston14
BoiseDallas
6NevadaClemson6
11Oklahoma/UCLASan Diego State11
.
7ArkansasCreighton7
10Virginia TechMissouri10
DetroitDetroit
2PURDUEMICHIGAN STATE2
15LipscombIona15

So which teams got screwed (along with the seed they got here)?  Saint Mary's (8), Louisville (9), USC (9), Baylor (FF), and Penn State (FF).

Which teams should be thanking the committee (along with their ranking)?  Arizona State (47), Alabama (48), Providence (49), Syracuse (52) and St. Bonaventure (57).

And for good measure, an NIT bracket

1Notre DameArizona State1
8HamptonSE Louisiana8
.
4OregonWestern Kentucky4
5GeorgiaLSU5
.
3NEBRASKASt. Bonaventure3
6N. KentuckyVermont6
.
2MarquetteOklahoma State2
7RiderUC Davis7
.
1ProvidenceAlabama1
8WagnerUNC Asheville8
.
4Mississippi StateUtah4
5UL LafayetteOld Dominion5
.
3Boise StateMARYLAND3
6Boston CollegeBYU6
.
2Middle TennesseeSyracuse2
7HarvardFlorida Gulf Coast7
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 14, 2018, 02:47:23 PM
It appears the right justify didn't hold, but it's still readable
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 14, 2018, 02:59:45 PM
For a program as storied as UCLA, the expectations should be a lot higher than an occasional S16 run.  A couple of generations ago, they were the premier program in college hoops (and it wasn't even close)
Yep, and they had the highest payroll in college sports (and it wasn't even close).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 14, 2018, 04:04:31 PM
the committee looked at who you beat over any other metric.   And beating name schools also mattered.  
I noticed this too.  The same thing happened in CFB when they went to the playoff.  It seems like wins are compared now and losses just get forgotten (other than the fact that you lost).  In earlier times we used to talk about "bad losses" in both sports but that seems to be an antiquated concept now.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 14, 2018, 04:24:13 PM
I noticed this too.  The same thing happened in CFB when they went to the playoff.  It seems like wins are compared now and losses just get forgotten (other than the fact that you lost).  In earlier times we used to talk about "bad losses" in both sports but that seems to be an antiquated concept now.  
I think the only place they seemed to care about it was the MSU vs. UM thing.  UM had better wins, including head to head.  But MSU only lost 4 times, and all 4 losses were to top 15 teams, while UM lost more times, including 3 times to non-tourney teams.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 14, 2018, 05:04:38 PM
For a program as storied as UCLA, the expectations should be a lot higher than an occasional S16 run.  A couple of generations ago, they were the premier program in college hoops (and it wasn't even close), but now they're firmly behind the quartet of Duke, Kentucky, UNC, and Kansas.
And as weak as hoops are out West, there's no reason they shouldn't be dominating the PAC (or at least be neck-and-neck with Zona).
While I didn't specifically say Alford was a *bad* coach, he's hardly an elite one and almost certainly won't get the Bruins over the hump.  He had talent at Iowa but couldn't get the Hawks over the hump either.
IIRC, his dream job is Indiana and I don't think the Hoosiers want to touch him with a ten-foot pole.  If he gets the axe, maybe he can join Kiffy-kins at Florida Atlantic.  I'm sure he'd kill it over there (if they need a new coach that is).
I mean, they made three Sweet 16s in five years, so more than occasional. 
That job is weird. You have Wooden who was just impossible (and had Sam Gilbert). But the last set of coaches: 
Alford-Gone after three Sweet 16s in five years. 
Howland-Went to three Final Fours, gone after a 25-10 season that ended in the first round, which was part of missing the dance twice in four years. 
Lavin-Gone after missing the tourney for the first time in 15 years. Before that an Elite 8 in year 1, then four sweet 16s in five years. 
Harrick-A title at the end of a kinda ok run. One sweet 16 and one elite eight in first six years. Out for impermissible benefits. 

Where does one go? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 14, 2018, 05:09:52 PM
Gonna be a tough job to fill out there. Plus, right now, there is the added concern about which coaches knew what with this shoe thing and all that jazz.

I'm thinking they will keep him.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 14, 2018, 06:03:56 PM
Ouch: https://thebiglead.com/2018/03/14/steve-alford-is-a-terrible-basketball-coach-and-ucla-deserves-better/ 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 15, 2018, 09:05:45 AM
I think the only place they seemed to care about it was the MSU vs. UM thing.  UM had better wins, including head to head.  But MSU only lost 4 times, and all 4 losses were to top 15 teams, while UM lost more times, including 3 times to non-tourney teams.
Even there, I'm not sure if the committee actually assessed Michigan's losses or if they simply noted that Michigan had more losses and quit there.  
Michigan State only had four losses and all were quite respectable:
Michigan's four "best" losses are similarly respectable, but their other three were MUCH worse:

I think the committee got it right with MSU above M based on Michigan's three bad losses being significantly worse than any MSU loss.  I am fearful though that the committee would have had M behind MSU even if those three "extra" losses had been on the road against top-10 teams.  

That is the part I don't like, because in my mind bad losses should matter.  There should be a difference between losing on the road to UNC and losing at home to Penn State.  Right now, I'm not sure that there is.  The committee's criteria seems to be:
If my suspicion there is right, then the quality of the losses effectively no longer matters.  That doesn't make any sense to me.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 10:59:15 AM
Nebraska looked pretty blah last night.  Basically their resume is handling business against a bunch of bad teams, but losing to every decent one, save one really good night at home against Michigan.

Penn State closed strong after a putrid first half offensively, to beat Temple and advance to play the 1 seed, Notre Dame, in South Bend on Saturday.

Seems like in recent years you get a bunch of 1st round NIT upsets where teams that just missed look to not care.  While Louisville and USC were pushed to the limits, overall, you have a really solid final 16.  The only lower seeded team that won was Washington, which was a 5 seed over a 4 seed Boise State.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 11:03:06 AM
Seems like in recent years you get a bunch of 1st round NIT upsets where teams that just missed look to not care.  While Louisville and USC were pushed to the limits, overall, you have a really solid final 16.  The only lower seeded team that won was Washington, which was a 5 seed over a 4 seed Boise State.
For comparison, last year you had a 1 seed lose, three of the four 2 seeds lose, and all four 3 seeds lose.  Then all three 1 seeds who won, lost their 2nd game.
I'm assuming they play those games Monday-Wednesday to fill in the gap, and this year they might be worth watching, as opposed to last year, where one bracket had Colorado State, UT Arlington, Akron and Bakersfield left at this point.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on March 15, 2018, 11:29:50 AM
Leron Black confirms he is leaving Illinois to pursue a professional career.  That one certainly huts but I can't blame the guy for trying to earn a living.  He is getting married and thinking about his future.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 15, 2018, 11:39:10 AM
Huskers usually play like crap on the road

they did again last night
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 15, 2018, 12:33:16 PM
most of you remember the General coaching Steve Alford

why wouldn't Lon Kruger run Young off multiple screens to get open looks?

kid can flat out shot the rock, Baby!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 15, 2018, 12:46:03 PM
Young has the hair of a mid 40s YMCAer.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 15, 2018, 12:47:26 PM
Nebraska looked pretty blah last night.  Basically their resume is handling business against a bunch of bad teams, but losing to every decent one, save one really good night at home against Michigan.

Penn State closed strong after a putrid first half offensively, to beat Temple and advance to play the 1 seed, Notre Dame, in South Bend on Saturday.

Seems like in recent years you get a bunch of 1st round NIT upsets where teams that just missed look to not care.  While Louisville and USC were pushed to the limits, overall, you have a really solid final 16.  The only lower seeded team that won was Washington, which was a 5 seed over a 4 seed Boise State.
UNL was one team at home, another on the road... add to it that the opponent had a decent big man, UNL was going to struggle.   the team really needed a home game and once the seeding was announced, I was the bad guy on a couple husker message boards for predicting a loss.  
Miles is s good recruiter... the questions UNL fans are asking today is can they do better.   I'm really uncertain.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 15, 2018, 12:47:52 PM
Small gathering in Dallas.  Atmospheres in my experience are really weird at 1st round games.  It's like being at a large convention.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 15, 2018, 01:02:35 PM
UNL was one team at home, another on the road... add to it that the opponent had a decent big man, UNL was going to struggle.   the team really needed a home game and once the seeding was announced, I was the bad guy on a couple husker message boards for predicting a loss.  
Miles is s good recruiter... the questions UNL fans are asking today is can they do better.   I'm really uncertain.
I'm a bad guy too
they could do better, but they'd have to get lucky
they could also do worse
I say keep trying until ya get lucky
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 15, 2018, 01:06:34 PM
Wright State is off to an inauspicious start. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 15, 2018, 01:20:44 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYWDfN9X4AEhMLZ.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 01:30:19 PM
Small gathering in Dallas.  Atmospheres in my experience are really weird at 1st round games.  It's like being at a large convention.
That's a great comparison.  Way more room than needed, an echo, something sort of going on, but people are there for what is happening later, you have people on their phones sitting by themselves, people coming in and out of the back doors constantly.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 15, 2018, 02:56:58 PM
yes, People coming and going, lots of indifference, crowded concourses (much like the vendor/sponsor room at a conference where the open bar is located).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 03:18:34 PM
Fun game between Rhode Island and Oklahoma.  Young launching 40 footers wasn't smart basketbll, but it was fun to watch
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 03:19:48 PM
Zags getting all they want
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 15, 2018, 03:29:06 PM
Zags getting all they want
It is getting interesting!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 03:38:43 PM
Zags pull it out, now switching to Jayhawks-Quakers
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 15, 2018, 03:58:52 PM
It is getting interesting!
  • #4 Gonzaga is tied up late and
  • #16 Penn is still within striking distance (4 points) of #1 KU about half way through the second half.  
Nevermind.  Gonzaga won and as soon as I typed that Kansas went on a 24-9 run to put their game out of reach.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 15, 2018, 04:10:03 PM
No upsets in the first four games:
As I type this:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 04:13:25 PM
Buckeyes miss three wide open shots to start the game
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 04:23:00 PM
SDSU is almost not even guarding the three point line, with good results for them so far
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 04:27:06 PM
Bucks average 19 triple attempts a game.  They have 12 attempts in the first eight minutes.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on March 15, 2018, 04:29:28 PM
So far, I'm getting a distinct chalky taste in my mouth so far.  :)

I like in that picture how Purdue Pete looks like he is about to deck the NC ram....or maybe pull off a "This is Sparta!!!!!" moment.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 04:33:58 PM
Dakich playing very well for the Bucks.  Daum for SDSU is a scorer.  He's got an NBA offensive game.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 15, 2018, 04:42:11 PM
Dakich playing very well for the Bucks.  Daum for SDSU is a scorer.  He's got an NBA offensive game.
Daum could be thinking about a graduate transfer if he's not headed for the NBA
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 04:48:27 PM
Bucks were rolling, but SDSU hit  couple deep threes and now Andre Wesson and Kam Williams look to be out with sprained ankles.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 04:50:08 PM
Maybe they are ok.  Wesson back in
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 04:56:52 PM
43-43 at the half.  No real qualms with how the Bucks are playing.  Announcers talked a lot about the Bucks' threes, but they were mostly wide open looks.  SDSU did not have wide open looks and still shot 56% from three compared to 37% for the Bucks, each hitting nine.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 05:22:02 PM
Ball don't lie!

Loyola got hammered with no call got the revenge winning 3.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 05:31:33 PM
These experts are killing me. Criticizing OSU for selling for wide open threes. Saying SDSU should shoot quick, instead of going through their NBA caliber player
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 06:01:29 PM
Kam Williams basketball IQ is in single digits
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 15, 2018, 06:17:30 PM
Bucks escape to face fellow escapees Gonzaga Saturday
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 15, 2018, 06:18:47 PM
South Dakota St was my first miss.  When they battled back to tie it up only to give up the 4 point play the next possession it was a kick to the balls.

Need NC St to win this.  I have them knocking off Kansas in the next round.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 15, 2018, 06:26:59 PM
Need NC St to win this.  I have them knocking off Kansas in the next round.
Opposite... I've got Seton Hall beating NC State in most of my brackets, and have them knocking off Kansas in more than a few.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 07:15:05 PM
At least Seton Hall won, but man, those refs should never work another tourney game.  Way to make it unwatchable.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 15, 2018, 07:57:43 PM
Zhaire Smith from Texas Tech with a 360 dunk off an alley oop pass.  Pretty bad ass.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 15, 2018, 08:17:29 PM
At least Seton Hall won, but man, those refs should never work another tourney game.  Way to make it unwatchable.
It was brutal on the radio on drive home.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 11:00:48 PM
Michigan and Montana both look dreadful offensively.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 15, 2018, 11:12:57 PM
Boise TV booth going with the throwback look to old Gallagher-Iba Arena.   Believe it or not, that camera angle was even steeper and had obstructions of catwalks and rafters.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 11:19:26 PM
Boise has been a hell of a region to be at today
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 11:19:52 PM
Boise TV booth going with the throwback look to old Gallagher-Iba Arena.   Believe it or not, that camera angle was even steeper and had obstructions of catwalks and rafters.
Ha, that was the exact compariosn I made elsewhere.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 11:28:40 PM
Buffalo just looks straight up better than Arizona.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 15, 2018, 11:38:06 PM
The Buffalo rebounding and 2nd chance play has been dominant.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 15, 2018, 11:42:10 PM
The Pac 12 has to be having the worst year ever for a power conference.  No CFP, then went like 1-9 in bowls.  Only got 3 teams into the tourney, and two were just in the play in game.  Both lost.  Then your lone rep in the field of 64 gets run off the court by a MAC school.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 15, 2018, 11:46:16 PM
Humiliation. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 15, 2018, 11:50:36 PM
Another program with a NCAA tourney win before Nebraska notches one.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 16, 2018, 12:00:29 AM
Going to bed.  This is the most poorly played tournament game I can recall off my head.  Thanks for the layoff Jim.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 16, 2018, 06:12:52 AM
In all my years of picking the tourney no two schools have royally screwed them up more than Arizona and Kansas. Why should it be any different this year?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 16, 2018, 06:53:03 AM
In all my years of picking the tourney no two schools have royally screwed them up more than Arizona and Kansas. Why should it be any different this year?
Arizona has literally been the curse of my brackets for over two decades.  Sometime in the mid-90's (IIRC) I had them winning the whole thing and going out early in back-to-back seasons and they did the opposite.  There have been plenty more examples since then.  At this point I've basically given up.  It is my rule now that anytime I see Zona I pick them to lose either in the S16 or the E8.  It isn't because that is where I think they will lose, it is simply because that is roughly the middle of the tournament so it minimizes the damage either way.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 16, 2018, 06:58:43 AM
Boise has been a hell of a region to be at today
I commented on that last night.  When the bracket came out I looked at Ohio State's location and decided "no way" because Boise just doesn't appeal to me as a travel destination at all.  However, the folks there got to see:
Then on St. Patrick's Day they get blueblood #5 UK vs Cinderella #13 Buffalo and a solid #4 Gonzaga vs #5 tOSU match-up.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 16, 2018, 07:03:01 AM
Arizona gonna Arizona.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 16, 2018, 07:06:11 AM
I guess I'm a Loyola fan. I did pick them over Miami, so that's good.

Time for UW to pounce on a grad transfer from South Dakota State.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 16, 2018, 07:06:39 AM
Leron Black confirms he is leaving Illinois to pursue a professional career.  That one certainly huts but I can't blame the guy for trying to earn a living.  He is getting married and thinking about his future.
This doesn't seem like a wise move to me.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: CatsbyAZ on March 16, 2018, 08:52:17 AM
The Pac 12 has to be having the worst year ever for a power conference.  No CFP, then went like 1-9 in bowls.  Only got 3 teams into the tourney, and two were just in the play in game.  Both lost.  Then your lone rep in the field of 64 gets run off the court by a MAC school.
Crap week of sports for sure. PAC 12 loses all their tourney games and the Cardinals sign Sam Bradford.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 16, 2018, 09:19:58 AM
Going to bed.  This is the most poorly played tournament game I can recall off my head.  Thanks for the layoff Jim.
There was a stretch of almost 9 minutes in the 2nd half where the teams combined for 5 points, all by Michigan, and 11 turnovers.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 16, 2018, 10:16:10 AM
Crap week of sports for sure. PAC 12 loses all their tourney games and the Cardinals sign Sam Bradford.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: CatsbyAZ on March 16, 2018, 10:50:30 AM
Bradford can play, just gotta keep him healthy
Saying that same Bradford is a good quarterback IF he can stay healthy is akin to saying that Kubrick makes good movies IF he is alive.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 16, 2018, 11:17:52 AM
Bradford started 15 games in 2016, completing 395 of 552 passes for 3,877 yards and 20 touchdowns with 5 interceptions.[140] His 71.6 completion percentage set a single season NFL record, passing Drew Brees's 2011 mark of 71.2.[141] Brees later finished the 2017 season with a 72.0 completion percentage, retaking the record. Bradford's 395 completions set a franchise record for completions in a season.[142]

and the Vikings O-Line was horrible - Sam was repeatedly hammered game after game

not saying it's likely, but it could happen that he stays healthy for a full season
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 16, 2018, 11:37:20 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DYaBl3HX0AAxwo5.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 16, 2018, 11:38:12 AM
And who said the Fab Five or the Flying Illini made baggy shorts cool?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 16, 2018, 01:03:10 PM
Ucsf v Purdue offensively challenged much like MT v Mich.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 16, 2018, 04:02:44 PM
Everybody talks about the 5/12 upsets but this year it looks like the 4/13 is going to be the place for upsets.  The #5 seeds are 2-0 with two games to play.  The #4 seeds, however, are 1-2 with one to play:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 16, 2018, 04:49:04 PM
Haas done with a broken elbow
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 16, 2018, 04:57:48 PM
As of this hour the #s are
7 times a #15 beat a #2
21 times a #14 beat a #3
28 times a #13 beat a #4 
47 times a #12 beat a #5
50 times a #11 beat a #6 

Of course we don't know what seed these low seeds beat to advance any further w/o deeper analysis presented here, I remember a couple double digit seeded second round games.
1 time a #15 made to SW16
2 times a #14 made to SW16
6 times a #13 made to SW16
20 times either a #12 or #11 made to SW 16

1 time a #12 made it to E8
11 times a #11 made it to E8

3 times a #11 made it to FF.
1 time a #10 made it to FF

Curious just how (on average) big the quality gap is of a #13 v a #12,  versus a #12 v a #11.  My hunch is the #12 over a #5 is overhyped as an upset.  Is it an upset?  Yeah, but I don't think the frequency is somehow greater than what statisticians would expect.  I assume this has been studied (expected outcomes, etc.)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 16, 2018, 04:58:00 PM
Haas done with a broken elbow
I just read this and wondered if it's true. Major blow to Purdue's chances.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 16, 2018, 05:37:54 PM
bad news for my brackets

had Purdue going deep
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 16, 2018, 07:04:01 PM
I just read this and wondered if it's true. Major blow to Purdue's chances.
Yep. True.
Where's my whiskey?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 16, 2018, 08:24:42 PM
Sunday will be a fun day in the Mountain State. WVU vs. Marshall.  I expect a good game.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 16, 2018, 11:22:48 PM
UMBC about to make history. Up 14 with about four minutes left.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 16, 2018, 11:34:23 PM
They let Arizona off the hook.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 16, 2018, 11:35:27 PM
It was a beating in the 2nd half.  Lyles was dominant.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Drew4UTk on March 16, 2018, 11:36:04 PM
Wow.. Isnt that uva lost... Well it is... But... They lost badly... 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 16, 2018, 11:39:02 PM
Who wants UMBC v Buffalo in SW 16?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: rook119 on March 16, 2018, 11:40:27 PM
this is surreal.  they just beat a No1 seed for the 1st time by 20 freaking points and they seem more proud of that victory against vermont. 

CATONSVILLE U GOING TO ROUND 2! 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 17, 2018, 08:41:50 AM
There are many Badger fans who still clamor for Tony Bennett. I'll have to check in on them today.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 17, 2018, 09:25:38 AM
some Pitt fans clamoring for Jamie Dixon
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 17, 2018, 09:27:28 AM
Apparently UVA was missing one of its best players, who was hurt this week.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 17, 2018, 09:50:23 AM
like Auburn

wish I would have picked accordingly with UVA

I could have been a contender
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 17, 2018, 09:56:28 AM
Apparently UVA was missing one of its best players, who was hurt this week.
The 6th man is not one of their best players. They were slapped silly pure and simple.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 17, 2018, 10:16:10 AM
coach said, Butt whippin

a couple times
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 17, 2018, 10:36:11 AM
First round record by seed:

Not a lot of upsets overall this year if you exclude the 8/9 line but wow was there a big one!  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 17, 2018, 11:54:30 AM
looks like the 5 seed this year collectively decided not to take the 12 lightly. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 17, 2018, 01:47:07 PM
The 6th man is not one of their best players. They were slapped silly pure and simple.
Just reporting what I read elsewhere, which was apparently not accurate.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: fezzador on March 17, 2018, 02:08:55 PM
Alabama has no business being in this tournament.  It’s a bad team in a bad conference that is about to lose its 16th game.

The SEC is slightly up because CBB is down as a whole.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 17, 2018, 02:14:36 PM
Just reporting what I read elsewhere, which was apparently not accurate.
Yeah I read something similar.   He's a bench guy who mattered to UVA.  Fungible in the grand scheme of last night though. 
I suppose the conventional view of a #1 seed going down would be a flukey buzzer shot or some such luck. I admit to having watched zero seconds of any ACC team this season, it made me wonder how the hell UVA dominated the season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 17, 2018, 03:36:09 PM
Maybe Haas not out?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 17, 2018, 04:14:26 PM
That would be really nice.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 17, 2018, 04:16:21 PM
Purdue needs some good karma for once.  Folks around here are pretty deflated.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 17, 2018, 04:54:41 PM
I generally have mixed emotions about beating mod majors.  Even when we lost to MTSU, IIsort of was just happy for them. Not last night.  Bucknell was as dislikable as any mid major we've ever played.  One kid got the boot was a T, after running around head butting guys, while flopping himself.  And honeslty they could have booted a second.

The Syracuse zone on short rest is always a tall task.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 17, 2018, 07:29:46 PM
Loyola is trying to notch the first upset of the Thirsty Thirty-Two
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 17, 2018, 08:49:16 PM
Frustrating game. Gonzaga difficult to guard and can't miss.  Bucks have missed four bunnies
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 17, 2018, 10:37:50 PM
I get so mad at NCAA refs.
1) They called the start of the 2nd half in a way that allowed the zags to keep their big lead. (I recall at least 4 offensive rebounds by gonzaga that started with a 1 or 2 handed shove on the OSU Box out player 
2) Then magically started calling ticky tack for OSU and the Bucks came storming back. (Tate is not worthy of an academy award, but the refs sure seemed to think so)
3) Swallowed whistles again and the zags muscled the lead back. 
4) Made several really bad calls to keep the Bucks hanging around much longer than they should have.

Congrats to Gonzaga, they are a real physical, solid, great shooting team.


Proud of the Bucks, way out performed preseason expectations, and played to their seed in the NCAA tournament. Fought incredibly hard after getting spanked 15-0 in the 1st 6 minutes of the game.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 18, 2018, 12:32:39 AM
11 days' rest saw their level of play fall so far that Michigan truly wasn't deserving to make the S16, and then the freshman who always plays like a hyper puppy hits a shot like that. Wow.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 18, 2018, 09:21:08 AM
The degree of difficulty on the shot the kid from Michigan hit was through the roof.  Not only was it deep but the kid from Houston was close enough to almost kiss his lips when he pulled it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on March 18, 2018, 10:57:37 AM
Just reporting what I read elsewhere, which was apparently not accurate.
Ya that was De'andre Hunter and he was ACC  6th man of the year or sumsuch.I was going to take UVA to the NCG in my bracket.When I was making my brackets researching squads I saw this guy got hurt,so I backed off on UVA.But damn to lose to that team with THAT TEAM,March Madness indeed
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 18, 2018, 11:00:15 AM
Sunday will be a fun day in the Mountain State. WVU vs. Marshall.  I expect a good game.
This is going to be awesome. 
I can only hope that UC and Xavier are on a similar collision course. 
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/newsrecord.org/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/f/2a/f2a3f7c0-d4ac-11e7-be8a-c35cea9604ea/5a1e1b4d21ef7.image.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 18, 2018, 11:01:19 AM
The degree of difficulty on the shot the kid from Michigan hit was through the roof.  Not only was it deep but the kid from Houston was close enough to almost kiss his lips when he pulled it.
hopefully the Boilers and Sparty don't allow it to come to that today
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on March 18, 2018, 11:03:19 AM
Was going to try to stay up for the UM - UH match up.Too much St Paddy's day however,evidently I missed a good one
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 18, 2018, 11:21:27 AM
You missed a great 3.6 seconds, Nubbz, but all the rest was...garbage to the average viewer. It was a defense-first game that was also tiiiiightly officiated (very "ticky-tacky") -- neither team ever found their flow.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 18, 2018, 11:26:13 AM
Was going to try to stay up for the UM - UH match up.Too much St Paddy's day however,evidently I missed a good one
I planned accordingly, took a leprechaun nap before the start of the UM game
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 18, 2018, 01:11:58 PM
Sounds like Haas was going to give it a go today, but the NCAA wouldn't clear his brace that he wanted to wear?

I'd like to know why.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 18, 2018, 01:21:17 PM
I'm not sure of the ruling's specifics but in the lead up last night announcers speculated that Haas wouldn't be allowed any kind of plaster cast and probably not a brace with metal/hard plastic, either -- citing the risk of accidentally striking others with it to cause injury. 
This is rarely an issue in football, but I presume that is because of all the protective garb.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 18, 2018, 01:26:21 PM
Yeah, apparently risk to other players. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on March 18, 2018, 02:07:21 PM
Makes sense Bwarb,never thought about it from that angle
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 18, 2018, 02:19:43 PM
Purdue with a bunch of terrible possessions in a row but hit a huge three
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 18, 2018, 03:06:29 PM
I'm not sure of the ruling's specifics but in the lead up last night announcers speculated that Haas wouldn't be allowed any kind of plaster cast and probably not a brace with metal/hard plastic, either -- citing the risk of accidentally striking others with it to cause injury.
This is rarely an issue in football, but I presume that is because of all the protective garb.
I'm not understanding how a brace could be any worse on a nose than a bare elbow. Both are hard, and it would seem to me that Haas wouldn't be swinging his bad elbow anyway. Regardless, an elbow can break a nose just as easy as a brace could.

Doesn't make sense to me.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 18, 2018, 03:24:46 PM
I'm not understanding how a brace could be any worse on a nose than a bare elbow. Both are hard, and it would seem to me that Haas wouldn't be swinging his bad elbow anyway. Regardless, an elbow can break a nose just as easy as a brace could.

Doesn't make sense to me.
The best I can do is think and guess:

(1) every hard brace has edges, which can scratch and cut

(2) a brace adds diameter to a limb, which significantly increases [a] the probability of contact and, even moreso, the probability of contact with a hard object (that is to note that, sure, the olecranon process is very hard but it is also very small)

Anyway, I'm not in the business of supporting the NCAA. And I was hoping Haas could play. But I don't think this ruling is that unusual.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 18, 2018, 03:32:00 PM
2 things:

1. I guess I'd like to see a picture of the brace he was asking to wear.

2. I'm glad you are back to posting here where you belong.

Cheers.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 18, 2018, 03:51:15 PM
The question will be if he's healthy enough to go against Texas Tech, and if there will be a brace that's acceptable to the NCAA.

Glad I can be talking about whether he plays next week than lamenting a team that's staying home. Boiler up!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 18, 2018, 04:44:47 PM
This game is tough to watch
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 18, 2018, 04:52:45 PM
Bridges, Jackson and Langford have been awful, and Syracuse has shot about a billion FTs.  Doesn't look like this is going their way.  Between NYC and Detroit, I think it's safe to say MSU struggles with the shot lines in a pro arena.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 18, 2018, 05:03:24 PM
This game has been borderline unwatchable. Not helped by the ten minute review
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 18, 2018, 05:14:38 PM
Of course this game ends with both teams intentionally fouling each other
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 18, 2018, 05:21:07 PM
Good riddance
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 18, 2018, 05:21:16 PM
This game is tough to watch
Yes it was. Congrats to Syracuse squeaking in and making the most of it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: DevilFroggy on March 18, 2018, 05:47:34 PM
That 'cuse 2-3 zone is tough as nails, which is has to be because their offense is pathetic. All of 3 'cuse's tourney wins were in spite of their offense (shot less than 40% all 3 games).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 18, 2018, 05:58:44 PM
I'm not sure I've ever watched a team take 24(!!) more shots than its opposition and lose. Syracuse needed 40 minutes to get off 42 shots; MSU, 66.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 18, 2018, 06:22:23 PM
I’m a huge fan of Ward. Don’t get his lack of minutes down the stretch, or JJJ for that matter. The high post entry should a be a good spot for a jump shooter and passer. Perfect for Bridges, but he was hanging out on the wing.

Also, when you 3 seconds left and have 29 offensive boards why not stack the box and try to miss that 2nd free throw? Worst case scenario is the guy who is 43% from the line gets the rebound for cuse.

Puzzled by the 2nd half strategy.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 18, 2018, 06:27:23 PM
I'm not sure I've ever watched a team take 24(!!) more shots than its opposition and lose. Syracuse needed 40 minutes to get off 42 shots; MSU, 66.
MSU dominated the boards, and Syracuse shot about 20 more FTs.  Those two factors will lead to very lopsided shot attempts.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 18, 2018, 06:31:14 PM
Michigan is going to the Final 4
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 18, 2018, 06:42:09 PM
F Syracuse. F Jim Boeheim. F Lance Armstrong. F Tiger Woods.



Is that enough George Carlin for one day?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 18, 2018, 07:12:07 PM
I'd like more
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 18, 2018, 07:24:11 PM
Bracket gods giveth, and now taketh away as the Tar Heels crash and burn.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 18, 2018, 10:09:29 PM
Down Goes the BearCats. Wow!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 18, 2018, 10:51:22 PM
According to KenPom, and excluding the national final, Gonzaga is the only team that remains in Michigan's potential path that would be favored over M in a match-up. 
Anyone can win any game, etc., but the losses by #2's today were awfully helpful to M's chances according to the number sheets.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 18, 2018, 11:33:27 PM
And that was before Xavier lost. 
Wow. Now, every 1-, 2-, and 3-seed on the entire left side of the bracket (South + West) is out ... except for Michigan. Just an insane opening weekend.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 19, 2018, 01:52:10 AM
Informative tweet:
(https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnGasaway)
John Gasaway

@JohnGasaway
(https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnGasaway)· (https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnGasaway/status/975583388227768321)
1h
 (https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnGasaway/status/975583388227768321)[/size]
This is the wackiest Sweet 16 in 18 years.

2018 average seed: 5.31
2000 average seed: 5.31

Normal (1985-2018): 4.45
Wackiest, 1986: 5.56
Chalkiest, 2009: 3.06
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 19, 2018, 08:34:49 AM
Informative tweet:
(https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnGasaway)
John Gasaway

@JohnGasaway

 (https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnGasaway)· (https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnGasaway/status/975583388227768321)
1h
 (https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnGasaway/status/975583388227768321)

This is the wackiest Sweet 16 in 18 years.

2018 average seed: 5.31
2000 average seed: 5.31

Normal (1985-2018): 4.45
Wackiest, 1986: 5.56
Chalkiest, 2009: 3.06
It is crazy how the brackets work out.  On the right-hand side (East/Midwest) it is mostly chalk.  You have:
Then on the left-hand side (South/West) there is almost no chalk.  You have:

If you view #5 seeds as not "really" upsets then on the right you have only one upset and on the left you have five out of eight.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 19, 2018, 08:37:19 AM
And the teams on the right didn't even really struggle.  Villanova, Duke, Clemson and West Virginia were probably the four most impressive teams of the weekend.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 19, 2018, 08:41:50 AM
Updated to include second round:

Record by seed:
  • 3-1 - UVA lost:  2-1 - Xavier lost.  
  • 4-0:  2-2 - Cincy and UNC lost.  
  • 4-0:  2-2 - TN and MSU lost.  
  • 2-2 - Zona and Wichita State lost:  1-1 - Auburn lost.  
  • 4-0:  3-1 - Kentucky, WVU, Clemson won.  
  • 2-2 - Miami and TCU lost:  0-2.  
  • 3-1 - Arkansas lost:  2-1 - aTm and Nevada won.  
  • 1-3 - Creighton, VaTech, and Mizzou lost:  0-1.  
  • 3-1 - KSU, Bama, and FSU won:  2-1 KSU and FSU won.  
  • 1-3 - Butler won:  0-1.  
  • 2-2 - Loyola-Chicago and Cuse won:  2-0 both won.  
  • 0-4:  n/a
  • 2-2 - Buffalo and Marshall won:  0-2.  
  • 0-4:  n/a
  • 0-4:  n/a
  • 1-3 - UMBC won:  0-1

Lots of upsets in the second round and oddly they are concentrated on one side of the bracket where the National semi-final will be no better than a 3/5 match-up.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 19, 2018, 09:38:19 AM
It's MAdness, baby!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 19, 2018, 09:57:23 AM
Michigan gets a third straight matchup with a strong defensive team.  Expect more slog.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Temp430 on March 19, 2018, 10:03:08 AM
Michigan gets a third straight matchup with a strong defensive team.  Expect more slog.
 
Truly a miracle Saturday night.  Michigan's shooting has been absolutely atrocious for the two NCAA tournament games played so far.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Riffraft on March 19, 2018, 10:53:53 AM
This is going to be awesome.
I can only hope that UC and Xavier are on a similar collision course.
(https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/newsrecord.org/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/f/2a/f2a3f7c0-d4ac-11e7-be8a-c35cea9604ea/5a1e1b4d21ef7.image.jpg)
Well that worked out well. As much I as I generally root for Xavier, after living in Cincinnati for over 20 years as a Cleveland Browns fan enduring all the garbage from Cincy people about Cleveland and Cleveland Sports teams, I have to enjoy the curse of Cincinnati Sports. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 19, 2018, 11:16:47 AM

Yeah, trying to grasp for a rooting interest from here on out.

I guess I'll take W Virginia and whoever plays Michigan. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 19, 2018, 02:05:22 PM
West Virginia and KAnsas st

Huggy Bear and Bruce Weber
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 19, 2018, 02:22:06 PM
He's anything but Huggy...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 19, 2018, 02:22:49 PM
It is crazy how the brackets work out.  On the right-hand side (East/Midwest) it is mostly chalk.  You have:
  • Both #1 seeds Nova, Kansas
  • Both #2 seeds PU, Dook
  • One #3 seed TxTech
  • Both #5 seeds Clemson, WVU
  • One #11 seed Cuse
Then on the left-hand side (South/West) there is almost no chalk.  You have:
  • One #3 seed Michigan
  • One #4 seed Gonzaga
  • One #5 seed Kentucky
  • Both #7 seeds aTm, Nevada
  • Both #9 seeds KSU, FSU
  • One #11 seed Loyola-Chicago

If you view #5 seeds as not "really" upsets then on the right you have only one upset and on the left you have five out of eight.  
This is Purdue's 4th S16 under Painter. Every prior S16 was a 4 or 5, and never got the "broken bracket" scenario where the 8/9 (or the 16!!!) knocked the 1 out of contention.
This year, Purdue has a 2, so of course we're facing the 3 in the S16, and our 1 is still in contention, while the other side of the bracket the best remaining seed (3 seed Michigan) gets a 7, and the other remaining 2 seed on our side is facing an 11. And if we manage to make the F4, chances are we're facing Kansas or Duke.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 19, 2018, 03:02:27 PM
probably better to be the underdog this year

#1, #2, & #3 seeds dropping like flies
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on March 19, 2018, 04:57:02 PM
It's MAdness, baby!
Unfookingbelievable 3 of my final 4 are out after the 1st weekend.UVA/MSU/Xavier.Who ever wins these brackets doesn't know chit.......when you think about it.This will be the funkiest final four in quite some time
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 19, 2018, 05:34:48 PM
Unfookingbelievable 3 of my final 4 are out after the 1st weekend.UVA/MSU/Xavier.Who ever wins these brackets doesn't know chit.......when you think about it.This will be the funkiest final four in quite some time
I never had faith in MSU getting past Duke, so at least when MSU went down, I figured after 24 hours to cool off I could still root for my bracket.  Then back to back I lost a Final 4 team (UNC), then a Finals team (Cincy), and the whole thing had gone to hell.
I said I didn't like UM's chances against UNC at all, I thought that was an awful matchup for them, but if UNC got upset before the Sweet 16, I thought UM would make it to San Antonio for sure.  I guess that can now get put to the test.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 19, 2018, 05:39:17 PM
As for next year, MSU should take a step back, but who knows.  The fact that MSU's lone Final 4 team in the last 6 years is probably the worst team they fielded in that stretch prevents me from dealing in absolutes.  I'm assuming Bridges and Jackson are gone.  Carter, Nairn and Schilling graduate.  Rumors are Ward is sort of done, but I don't see any way he gets drafted.  He's not what the NBA wants in a big anymore.  We'll see if smarter heads prevail.

I would think they should still be a tourney team, anything beyond that is gravy.  Off the top of my head, McQuaid was the only junior, so presumably 2019-20 should be a strong year.

With or without Wagner, next year Michigan should be the very heavy favorite.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 19, 2018, 11:07:30 PM
He's anything but Huggy...

Look, I’m gonna throw my two cents in here knowing full well it won’t change your opinion.  But Huggs probably isn’t as bad a guy as you imagine him being.

Some of the stuff that drew criticism at UC hasn’t been an issue at WVU.  He has routinely graduated between 70-100% of his players here. Just the other day I read where 41 of the last 42 seniors to play under him have left with degrees. His best player this year, Jevon Carter, was just named the Academic All American of the Year for Men’s Division I basketball.  Besides that, I believe that the way the NCAA counted JUCO’s toward graduation rates impacted his numbers at UC.  I honestly can’t think of an off court incident involving one of his players here. If someone has been arrested during his tenure here then it is slipping my mind.

Neither he or WVU was mentioned in any of the FBI reports that recently came out.  Now, if you flat out don’t like his personality or demeanor then that is absolutely your prerogative.  I won’t try to talk you out of it, but his coaching peers seem to almost universally love him. Chances are if there is a coach out there you like and respect then he likes and respects Huggs.  His personality and wit are actually a little too dry for my tastes, but whatever. To each his own.

He has started an endowment at WVU in his mother’s name to fund cancer research that is approaching 1.5 million dollars and is growing everyday.  Like I said, if your heels are dug in on not liking him then nothing I said will change that but I wanted to mount a little defense of him anyway. He told Clark Kellogg in an interview last year that he got wind from former players that a few years ago Sports Illustrated was attempting to do a pretty scathing piece on him and contacted many former players looking for “dirt.”

They couldn’t find anyone who could give them any information that would be helpful in their endeavor so they dropped it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 19, 2018, 11:39:41 PM
Mike DiCourcey who is national now, but was on the Cincinnati beat for a while back in the early 90s was saying just recently that over 30 years of covering basketball, the guys who has the most unfair reputation is Hugs.

Yeah, he won at Cincinnati largely with guys who had not a prayer of getting in amywhere else, and I hated him, and his program.  Then he rolled into KSU, and mysteriously had McD AAs in tow.

But he has really changed my opinion of him during his time at WVU.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 20, 2018, 07:16:25 AM
I guess I've not really followed him much since Cincy. I'm pleased to hear he is doing good things off the court at his alma mater. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 20, 2018, 07:35:01 AM
Back when I followed hoops fairly closely , Huggins was very much a curse word.  I can think of all the less than desirables in my mind, so many angry times.  For a moment I think they replaced Louisville as most hated conference rival for Marquette.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 20, 2018, 07:43:18 AM
I’m not trying to paint the guy as a saint.  He had the DUI at UC.  He recruited some players who got in trouble.  Those things happened and deserve to be part of any conversation about Huggins.

I think the other part is his teams play a style of basketball that isn’t necessarily aesthetically pleasing.  He got fat and ditched suits and ties for windbreakers.  Some of that stuff rubs people the wrong way.  I had a perfect stranger in an airport tell me she thought Huggins wearing windbreakers on the sidelines was the most unprofessional thing she had ever seen. I mean, everybody has an opinion.

But if anyone thinks he’s an Art Briles type of “win at all costs” then, no, I don’t think that is accurate.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 20, 2018, 09:21:52 AM

I was a huge fan of Huggins when he was at UC. His full court press was a sight to behold. They won CUSA every year. They were aggressive, and they didn't back down from anybody. 

So I understand why he makes opposing fan bases grouchy. He bruised a lot of players, feelings and egos along the way. 

I'm not surprised that the off the court troubles have diminished, as they were mostly a product of the environment. While it's been cleaned up since his departure, the area around UC's campus was downright dangerous back when he was coaching. You aren't going to be able to convince choir boys to ball in Over da Rhine Cincinnati back in the 90s. You had to win with the Urban street baller type that learned to play ball on blacktop courts with chain-link nets hanging from the rims. Cocky guys who aren't afraid to play a little dirty. Step on a few toes, throw a couple elbows.... Sure you might wind up having a player punch a police horse here and there. But it makes for a pretty entertaining brand of Basketball that you love if it's your team and hate if you have to go up against it. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 20, 2018, 09:48:20 AM


 He got fat and ditched suits and ties for windbreakers.  Some of that stuff rubs people the wrong way.  I had a perfect stranger in an airport tell me she thought Huggins wearing windbreakers on the sidelines was the most unprofessional thing she had ever seen. I mean, everybody has an opinion.


better than  George Raveling on the Iowa bench
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 20, 2018, 09:49:50 AM
my KSU buddies seemed to really like Huggins while he was in the Little Apple, they were sad to see him go

but, obviously the Purple cat fans would sell their souls to beat the Jayhawks
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 20, 2018, 10:23:12 AM

I think that we can easily extrapolate which schools he might've knocked out of the Tourney a time or two, based on some of the ongoing vitriol...

;)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 20, 2018, 10:37:12 AM
It ain't me. To my recollection, UW has only played them one time in the NCAA tourney, and the good guys won.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 20, 2018, 11:33:07 AM

Sparty? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on March 20, 2018, 11:35:16 AM
I never had faith in MSU getting past Duke, so at least when MSU went down, I figured after 24 hours to cool off I could still root for my bracket.  Then back to back I lost a Final 4 team (UNC), then a Finals team (Cincy), and the whole thing had gone to hell.
Brutal i tell ya no matter which way I looked holes were getting blasted in good programs(and my bracket).I had MSU winning the hardware
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 20, 2018, 11:44:29 AM
Sparty?
well, it certainly wasn't Herbie Husker
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 20, 2018, 12:07:08 PM
Marquette played Cincy pretty well on the later half of Higgins stint at UC, as Marquette and Luvl were the only two schools to win a outright CUSA title other than Cincy, during Huggins' reign.   They had some great tussles.  

Before that though, he had his way, looks like he was 19-11 during his tenure at UC.  I remember when UC was #1 at the Bradley Center, and Brian Wardle scored all 24 Marquette points in the 1st half.   
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 20, 2018, 12:17:45 PM
Why is Marquette still dragging DePaul around with them? Travel partner? Chicago market?

Get Loyola on board instead...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 20, 2018, 12:28:17 PM
Marquette played Cincy pretty well on the later half of Higgins stint at UC, as Marquette and Luvl were the only two schools to win a outright CUSA title other than Cincy, during Huggins' reign.   They had some great tussles.  

Before that though, he had his way, looks like he was 19-11 during his tenure at UC.  I remember when UC was #1 at the Bradley Center, and Brian Wardle scored all 24 Marquette points in the 1st half.    
Yeah, Dwyane Wade was a pretty good player. 
CUSA did indeed get pretty beastly once a few of the teams caught up with the Bearcats.
Loiusville, Marquette, Memphis and, to a lesser degree, Charlotte all got it going in the early 20-ots. 

I remember going to a Cincy game around that time where one of their players (Steve Logan) outscored Southern Miss 41-39. UC won the game 85-39. 

(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/dec-1999-steve-logan-of-the-cincinnati-bearcats-dribbles-the-ball-picture-id498440)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 20, 2018, 12:45:20 PM
Talking to the wrong guy Badge.   I'd support another Jesuit school (Loyola)  over DePaul everyday of the week.

I bet few realize, DePaul (the City built this sucker) moved to a new 10,000 seat arena (no longer out at O'Hare at Rosemont), attached to McCormick Conv Ctr., and their attendance went down even further.   I've heard very little positive about the arena.  Mainly a giant PIA for fans to get to, students still don't care, despite being closer to Lincoln Park.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 20, 2018, 01:00:59 PM
I’ve picked plenty of bad tournaments but this one takes the cake.  Three FF teams eliminated before the Sweet 16 is a first.  Only having 6 of the Sweet 16 teams right is a first.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 20, 2018, 01:32:53 PM
Steve Logan had some game
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 20, 2018, 02:03:51 PM

Is it better now?  A friend of mine who graduated HS in 1994 went to UC and only stayed for about three days.  He left because the dorm they put him in was in such an awful neighborhood that he just wanted out.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 20, 2018, 02:39:44 PM
Talking to the wrong guy Badge.   I'd support another Jesuit school (Loyola)  over DePaul everyday of the week.

I bet few realize, DePaul (the City built this sucker) moved to a new 10,000 seat arena (no longer out at O'Hare at Rosemont), attached to McCormick Conv Ctr., and their attendance went down even further.   I've heard very little positive about the arena.  Mainly a giant PIA for fans to get to, students still don't care, despite being closer to Lincoln Park.
Yeah, so.. McCormick Place. 

I can't even get started on what a bad idea an arena there was. Now that it's open, people are already wishing it was closed.

It could turn out to be the Rahmfather's albatross, among many other opportunities he has for that purpose.

as of today, there are two "concerts" scheduled, and a bunch of WNBA games. Not gonna move any meters with those, not to mention DePaul games.

They should have just fixed up Alumni Hall and been done with it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 20, 2018, 09:43:19 PM
Is it better now?  A friend of mine who graduated HS in 1994 went to UC and only stayed for about three days.  He left because the dorm they put him in was in such an awful neighborhood that he just wanted out.  
Yeah, I had a similar experience in 98. I stuck it out for the quarter though, and then transferred to OSU over Christmas break. While OSU isn't exactly in the greatest neighborhood, it might as well have been Beverly Hills compared to Clifton. 
But yes, it is quite a bit better now. I had a family friend go there in 2005, and the area around the campus had been completely torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. It was all new and nice. At the time it was sorta lipstick on a pig, as all it did was push the hood back a couple of blocks, but then good ole gentrification has since transformed Over the Rhine and Cliffton into a halfway decent community. 
Back in the nineties though, it might as well have been a demilitarized zone. 
Where's Cincydawg when you need him? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 21, 2018, 09:10:41 AM
Excited to see PSU getting some quality road wins in the NIT if nothing else.  Dominated ND at their place, and played Marquette very well last night and actually defended the 3 for once very well.  Were without two of their top 7 guys too (Watkins out for season, Bostick suspended for past two games).  Nice to see guys like Harrar getting some good experience and extra practice time.

If Carr is smart and comes back (he's not NBA ready and could be a first rounder with another year under his belt), PSU is priming for a nice run next year.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 21, 2018, 10:02:37 AM
I'm seeing Carr as a borderline 1st rounder this year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 21, 2018, 10:31:06 AM
Excited to see PSU getting some quality road wins in the NIT if nothing else.  Dominated ND at their place, and played Marquette very well last night and actually defended the 3 for once very well.  Were without two of their top 7 guys too (Watkins out for season, Bostick suspended for past two games).  Nice to see guys like Harrar getting some good experience and extra practice time.

If Carr is smart and comes back (he's not NBA ready and could be a first rounder with another year under his belt), PSU is priming for a nice run next year.  
I'm rooting for PSU to win the NIT. I always root for major conference teams in the NIT because small conference fans seem to be convinced that they get screwed in the NCAA when, in fact, the opposite is true.  Typically the NIT is won by a major conference team:
Note that over the past 20 years the NIT winner has usually come from a major conference.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 21, 2018, 10:54:54 AM
I don't really find that as evidence of anything.  Just like VCU making the Final 4 in 2011 didn't prove they were deserving of a bid.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 21, 2018, 11:05:50 AM
I don't really find that as evidence of anything.  Just like VCU making the Final 4 in 2011 didn't prove they were deserving of a bid.
I disagree based on volume.  
I agree with you that once doesn't prove much or anything but I believe that is because one is too small of a sample size.  Thus, I believe that the fact that Minnesota won the NIT in 2014 does NOT "prove" that Minnesota was the best team left out of the NCAA.  However, looking at 20 years I think there is reasonable evidence that the best team left out is typically a major conference school because major conference schools typically win the NIT.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 21, 2018, 11:10:14 AM
I’ve picked plenty of bad tournaments but this one takes the cake.  Three FF teams eliminated before the Sweet 16 is a first.  Only having 6 of the Sweet 16 teams right is a first.
My wife and I only have 4 teams left in our brackets.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 21, 2018, 11:17:32 AM
I don't think winning the NIT proves you are the best team left out at all.  Your resume is cut off on Selection Sunday.  I agree that the "best" teams left out, the most talented teams, are probably high majors.  But it doesn't mean they were more deserving of the bid.  Just like if the stat was the opposite, that wouldn't be proof that they should have been in either.

Over the last 9 years, only one #1 seed (Minnesota in 2014) has won it.  So none of the winners are even coming from the group of teams that were on the bubble.  Judging anything about the winner (other than the fact that the teams who actually had a shot at the tourney don't seem to care at all) seems pointless.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 21, 2018, 01:57:22 PM
I'm rooting for PSU to win the NIT. I always root for major conference teams in the NIT because small conference fans seem to be convinced that they get screwed in the NCAA when, in fact, the opposite is true.  Typically the NIT is won by a major conference team:
  • 2017:  TCU
  • 2016:  George Washington
  • 2015:  Stanford
  • 2014:  Minnesota
  • 2013:  Baylor
  • 2012:  Stanford
  • 2011:  Wichita State
  • 2010:  Dayton
  • 2009:  Penn State
  • 2008:  Ohio State
  • 2007:  WVU
  • 2006:  USCe
  • 2005:  USCe
  • 2004:  Michigan
  • 2003:  St. Johns, subsequently vacated, Georgetown was runner-up
  • 2002:  Memphis
  • 2001:  Tulsa
  • 2000:  Wake
  • 1999:  Cal
  • 1998:  Minnesota, subsequently vacated, Penn State was runner-up
Note that over the past 20 years the NIT winner has usually come from a major conference.  
1996 Nebraska Cornhuskers!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on March 21, 2018, 02:26:23 PM
Looking forward to Loyola - Nevada even though you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who knew less about either
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on March 21, 2018, 02:29:55 PM
My wife and I only have 4 teams left in our brackets.
Serves ya right for taking my advice
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 21, 2018, 02:37:00 PM
Serves ya right for taking my advice
On getting a wife?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on March 21, 2018, 02:41:48 PM
That's entirely his own doing,probably
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on March 21, 2018, 02:44:08 PM
lol
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 22, 2018, 11:06:42 AM
Will be very curious which A&M team Michigan gets tonight. Is it the one that beat UNC, Kentucky, and West Virginia all by double digits. Or is it the one that was 3-4 in their last 7 games getting beat up by teams like Miss State.

Michigan will need good offensive spacing and to hit some 3's. I think Houston was a very good test for Michigan in prepping for A&M. Houston, by almost all computer metrics, was rated top 15-20 in the country in defense.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 22, 2018, 12:35:03 PM
Will be very curious which A&M team Michigan gets tonight. Is it the one that beat UNC, Kentucky, and West Virginia all by double digits. Or is it the one that was 3-4 in their last 7 games getting beat up by teams like Miss State.

Michigan will need good offensive spacing and to hit some 3's. I think Houston was a very good test for Michigan in prepping for A&M. Houston, by almost all computer metrics, was rated top 15-20 in the country in defense.
I wouldn't touch that game with a 10 foot pole.  As you said, Texas A&M has been all over the place, and so had Michigan.  They were hotter than anyone in the Big Ten entering the tourney, then played so poorly Thursday, they probably would have lost to about 55-60 teams in the tourney, just not Montana.  Then needed the buzzer beater.  I could see a Michigan blowout win, or a Texas A&M blowout win, or anything in between.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: DevilFroggy on March 22, 2018, 12:46:36 PM
The NIT is weird. In 2010 with what was Herb Sendek's most talented ASU team (sophomore James Harden right before he declared for the NBA and a center who played in the NBA for a bit as well) the Sun Devils as the #1 overall seed got bounced in the first round to Jacksonville St. After bitching about not making the tourney (thanks to Sendek's patented weak OOC schedules) too.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 22, 2018, 03:28:50 PM
I don't think winning the NIT proves you are the best team left out at all.  Your resume is cut off on Selection Sunday.  I agree that the "best" teams left out, the most talented teams, are probably high majors.  But it doesn't mean they were more deserving of the bid.  Just like if the stat was the opposite, that wouldn't be proof that they should have been in either.

Over the last 9 years, only one #1 seed (Minnesota in 2014) has won it.  So none of the winners are even coming from the group of teams that were on the bubble.  Judging anything about the winner (other than the fact that the teams who actually had a shot at the tourney don't seem to care at all) seems pointless.
Agreed, I don't think it means anything with relation to not being selected for the NCAA's.  I see it as a building block to next year - extra games, against relatively strong competition and extra practice.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 22, 2018, 06:47:37 PM
1996 Nebraska Cornhuskers!
The only time in human history Nebraska basketball had the nation's longest winning streak.  They ran off a few wins the next year after Kentucky lost early the next season.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 22, 2018, 07:44:21 PM
Michigan hitting stone tough shots, but good defense being played early by both teams
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 22, 2018, 07:50:22 PM

This weekend is always kinda meh.


The opening weekend is where it's at, and the final four is obviously important. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 22, 2018, 08:05:29 PM
I wouldn't touch that game with a 10 foot pole.  As you said, Texas A&M has been all over the place, and so had Michigan.  They were hotter than anyone in the Big Ten entering the tourney, then played so poorly Thursday, they probably would have lost to about 55-60 teams in the tourney, just not Montana.  Then needed the buzzer beater.  I could see a Michigan blowout win, or a Texas A&M blowout win, or anything in between.
Looks like both teams are back to how they played prior to last weekend.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 22, 2018, 08:22:57 PM
A&M looks totally frazzled by Michigan's defense and it affected their defense. Also Michigan shooting well
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 22, 2018, 08:44:18 PM
Loyola looking pretty good. Not sure how long they can hold on to the coach.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on March 22, 2018, 08:51:05 PM
This Nevada game could be a great finish
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 23, 2018, 12:09:34 AM
So, looking good for a 3, two 9s and an 11 on one side of the bracket?  That has to be a record for worst regional finals on the same side right?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 23, 2018, 06:24:34 AM
So, looking good for a 3, two 9s and an 11 on one side of the bracket?  That has to be a record for worst regional finals on the same side right?
And the opposite side is likely to go 1-1-2-2/3... 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 23, 2018, 08:21:13 AM
And the opposite side is likely to go 1-1-2-2/3...
That is the weird part.  #3 seed Michigan, if they make it all the way, will get to the CG by beating:
If the upsets were more spread out it wouldn't be such a big deal but they have all been concentrated on the left side of the bracket.  It is entirely likely that two regional finals will be #1 v #2 while the other two are 3/9 and 9/11.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 23, 2018, 08:32:18 AM
That is the weird part.  #3 seed Michigan, if they make it all the way, will get to the CG by beating:
  • #14 Montana
  • #6 Houston
  • #7 aTm
  • #9 FSU
  • Either #9 KSU or #11 Loyola-Chicago
If the upsets were more spread out it wouldn't be such a big deal but they have all been concentrated on the left side of the bracket.  It is entirely likely that two regional finals will be #1 v #2 while the other two are 3/9 and 9/11.  
Over the past 30 years, only 5 times has a team made it to the national championship without facing a top 3 seed, and only 2 times (both UNC) without facing a top 4 seed.  No team has ever not faced a top 5 seed.  And all of the teams that ever did it without facing a top 3 were 1 seeds.
2017 Gonzaga: 16-8-4-11-7
2016 North Carolina: 16-9-5-6-10
2005 North Carolina: 16-9-5-6-5
1999 Connecticut: 16-9-5-10-4
1990 UNLV: 16-8-12-11-4
Michigan is guaranteed to break that, and if Florida State beats Michigan, then Kansas State would get it too, if they beat Loyola.  I stopped at 30 years, because I'm guessing it didn't happen before that, with fewer upsets.  So in the history of the tournament, we've never had a path that easy to a national championship game, and now two different regions on the same side of the bracket have a chance at producing it in the same year.  And to go even farther, those previous paths were all by 1 seeds.  This years would be a 3 seed and a NINE SEED!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 23, 2018, 09:33:07 AM
Crazy, stupid luck for Michigan on the left bracket -- though, if they make it, I guess that averages them out for the crazy (the hard kind) gauntlet that they needed to cross in 2013 (13-5-1-3-4-1).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 23, 2018, 09:37:51 AM
Meanwhile, in obvious news that still has an effect when mentioned a certain way, in the last four tournaments (Big Ten + National, 2017/2018), Michigan is 13-1.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 23, 2018, 11:19:07 AM
Crazy, stupid luck for Michigan on the left bracket -- though, if they make it, I guess that averages them out for the crazy (the hard kind) gauntlet that they needed to cross in 2013 (13-5-1-3-4-1).
Plus the horrible luck they had in the fall I had to hear about non stop of having to play in the first ever football game where only one team had to play in the rain.  ;)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 23, 2018, 11:22:04 AM
the tourney has been entertaining this year...    Certainly mirrored the regular season with upsets and the fact that the NCAA had a lot of good teams that played up and down basketball.   Part of that is youth and the # of guys who leave early... Part of that is talent is spreading. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 23, 2018, 11:25:34 AM
the tourney has been entertaining this year...    Certainly mirrored the regular season with upsets and the fact that the NCAA had a lot of good teams that played up and down basketball.   Part of that is youth and the # of guys who leave early... Part of that is talent is spreading.  
I like a it in the opening round, then I like the 2nd round to correct it, for some heavyweight battles over the final 2 rounds.  I watched the first half of UM-A&M last night, and a little bit of the end of UK-KSU, but that's it.  I'll be all in for the real game today.  Probably won't watch much tomorrow.  Maybe the 2nd half of UM-FSU after the kids go to bed.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on March 23, 2018, 11:25:44 AM
Plus the horrible luck they had in the fall I had to hear about non stop of having to play in the first ever football game where only one team had to play in the rain.  ;)
that is almost as bad as night games in football...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 23, 2018, 11:56:51 AM

Credit where due. 

I am impressed with the ease of which Michigan transitioned from being a football school to a basketball school. 

Seemingly seamless. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 23, 2018, 11:59:16 AM
Credit where due.

I am impressed with the ease of which Michigan transitioned from being a football school to a basketball school.

Seemingly seamless.
So seamless most of their fans don't know it happened.
I wonder if MSU fans notice the reverse happening?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 23, 2018, 03:03:58 PM
It's always dangerous for one person to speak for his entire group, but I'll take the risk and say Michigan fans aren't changed. We still, on averge, have an attitude toward basketball that is somewhere in the spectrum of mild enthusiasm/apathy/dislike, w/r/t the sport itself. We're also avid enough about Michigan to want everything good to happen to it and adore hype, in general. Deep tourney runs check off these boxes. This isn't new or surprising. And you know this. The magnitude of Michigan obnoxiousness is exponents-upon-exponents higher when they have a Top 5 football program. This basketball giddiness is a drop in the bucket by comparison. Sure, it's sincere happiness, but it pales in magnitude and (unlike the high tide football fervor which lasts 365), it will inevitably flee sooner than a month after the tourney. They are great and fun to watch, are getting lots of press, and John Beilein always makes the university look good. The end.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 23, 2018, 03:36:01 PM
Yeah, I don't think anyone was more than tongue in cheek.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on March 23, 2018, 03:59:58 PM
Damn stated that I wanted to see Nevada-loyola and caught pieces/parts of the 1 st half.Got busy sorting/focusing on tax papers and poof - coulda sorted the damn papers today.Didn't see the Zags getting tripped up by the the Noles.Score indicates it wasn't that close.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 23, 2018, 04:20:25 PM
Yeah, I don't think anyone was more than tongue in cheek.
Ha, well that's the other thing about Michigan. Stereotyped for having a superiority complex - and even SCs that seem persuasive/real are *always* ICs in disguise. So, like people in general and with our own reasons, we're a sensitive bunch. Apparently I enjoy feeding that flaw as much as anyone.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 23, 2018, 05:05:43 PM
NCAA stunningly gets something right, amends elbow brace rule for Purdue's Isaac Haas
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 23, 2018, 05:55:00 PM
NCAA stunningly gets something right, amends elbow brace rule for Purdue's Isaac Haas
Good news. What is he going to be wearing?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 23, 2018, 07:55:30 PM
Haas met with engineers at Purdue, who crafted a new brace that would allow him to play and get approval of game officials for Friday, and was seen sporting it at practice on Thursday (https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/ncaa-tournament-2018-new-brace-but-same-problem-for-purdues-isaac-haas/)

(https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/i/r/2018/03/23/78db3092-ba54-4186-97a2-6eefdc0b369e/resize/670x377/2b15ecb2b93a3e81a1c948a3eb4bd894/isaachaasbrace.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 23, 2018, 09:18:18 PM
So Kansas' 20 point lead with 10 to play is down to 6 and Nova is down 6.

Michigan might be the highest seed left by the end of the night.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 23, 2018, 09:33:52 PM
Or Nova is going to wake up and drive the final nail in my bracket.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 23, 2018, 09:43:30 PM
Interesting read in WSJ today about how boeheim convinced K to run a zone for team USA vs Spain when they needed a stop. Durante swatted 2 three attempts and USA held on to win.  K was like, hmm.  Capitulated when he later started playing lots of Freshman.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 24, 2018, 12:30:21 AM
I'll never learn to get off the WVU and Purdue bandwagons in filling out my bracket.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 24, 2018, 03:54:32 AM
I'll never learn to get off the WVU and Purdue bandwagons in filling out my bracket.
WVU keeps running into great teams in the Sweet 16.  Our last 3 S16 opponents have been a combined 102-5 heading into the game.  I also thought we got a tough whistle in the 2nd half.  That’s not the reason they lost but it didn’t help.  The first 6 fouls of the second half were all called on WVU and came within the first 6 minutes and a couple (if not 3 of them) were just terrible calls.  The third foul on Jevon Carter and the 4th foul on Daxter Miles were vomit inducing.  Dax was our leading scorer in the game and had to sit for the next 10 minutes of game action.  By the 10:00 mark of the second half WVU had been whistled for 10 fouls and Nova 2.

Then Nova got hot and just pulled away.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 24, 2018, 08:22:52 AM
WVU keeps running into great teams in the Sweet 16.  Our last 3 S16 opponents have been a combined 102-5 heading into the game.  
Angry Purdue fans tell me that's no reason to keep Painter. After all, the four times he's made the S16 we've faced the one seed 3 times and this time was a 3 seed that was probably under-seeded due to the Evans injury that hurt their record. And of  those 4 seasons,  three were impacted by injury (two years from Hummel torn ACL, one mid season, and this year Haas).
But clearly they all say the S16 is his ceiling and we should demand better. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 24, 2018, 08:47:50 AM
I thought the 'Eers got hosed a bit on some of those 2nd half calls. Some of that could have been punishment for the "attitude" and stuff like walking into Nova huddles, cutting through their warmups, etc. Who really knows. I really thought they were going to win.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 24, 2018, 09:27:07 AM
Nova shot the 3 VERY well in the 2nd half, tough to beat a team shooting that well

was rooting for WVU
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 24, 2018, 09:55:01 AM
Angry Purdue fans tell me that's no reason to keep Painter. After all, the four times he's made the S16 we've faced the one seed 3 times and this time was a 3 seed that was probably under-seeded due to the Evans injury that hurt their record. And of  those 4 seasons,  three were impacted by injury (two years from Hummel torn ACL, one mid season, and this year Haas).
But clearly they all say the S16 is his ceiling and we should demand better.
IMO, Purdue played the best team in the Big 12 last night.  Before Keenan Evans got hurt I thought (and still think) Tech would have won the regular season title.  They are super athletic and have a ton of kids between that 6’5 and 6’7 range that interchangeable on defense.  It’s really hard to catch them in mismatches on D because they can just switch all the screens and the guy who switches off is a carbon copy of the guy who was just guarding you.
Combine that with the fact Haas was out and there is no shame in losing that game last night.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 24, 2018, 10:09:52 AM
Nova shot the 3 VERY well in the 2nd half, tough to beat a team shooting that well

was rooting for WVU
Nova was a bad matchup for WVU.  They shoot the hell out of the 3 and all season WVU has guarded the 3 point line poorly.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 24, 2018, 10:16:18 AM
and you didn't tell me before I filled out the bracket?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 24, 2018, 10:45:41 AM
That was the first time I had seen Texas Tech at all this season.   Looked like a really dynamic team.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 24, 2018, 07:32:11 PM
Loyola is fun to watch.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 24, 2018, 08:45:40 PM
They remind me of Michigan - smart/well coached, a team full of guards, great shooting, great passing, low turnovers.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 24, 2018, 09:57:24 PM
Loyola is fun to watch.
and they can ball
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 24, 2018, 09:58:33 PM
sounds like the Florida speed might be too much for the plodding team from the Big Ten
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on March 25, 2018, 12:32:14 AM
If someone would have told me at the start of the season that Michigan was going to the Final Four, I would have laughed at them. What a well coached team. Halftime adjustments were incredible and defense carried them on a night of poor shooting. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 01:07:08 AM
I can't give Beilein enough credit for having the self-awareness this late in his career to realize that, unlike offense, he'd been putting out meh defenses and going all in the last two seasons by hiring assistants (first Donlon who got it rolling, now Yaklich who seems like a real wiz) to revolutionize that side of the ball. There's no way we get here without that.
NCAAt wins since 2013:
16 - UNC
15 - Michigan 
15 - Duke
15 - Kentucky 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 25, 2018, 10:07:33 AM
What a run from this team. It’s fun to see them win in different ways with different players carrying the load each game. 

The crowds in NY and LA for Michigan were amazing.

In the last 6 years:
4 Sweet sixteens, 2 final fours, 2 B1G titles, and 2 B1G tourney titles.

In 2015 after Burke, Stauskas, and that group had all left it looked like there might be a downturn, but that looks more like a blip on the radar now.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 25, 2018, 10:24:07 AM
The most impressive thing about Michigan Basketball is that Beilein does things the right way. 

Someone needs to teach Simpson how to shoot free throws though. Jeez. That could have hurt a lot last night.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 12:51:11 PM
The most impressive thing about Michigan Basketball is that Beilein does things the right way.
It's my favorite aspect about him, too. When the FBI investigation began, and even a few weeks ago when reports leaked many more big schools were implicated, including half of this tournament's sixteen teams seeded #1 through #4, it was enjoyable knowing that there is a serious chance that NCAA basketball will be cleaned up and that Michigan has a 0.00000% chance of involvement.

Someone needs to teach Simpson how to shoot free throws though. Jeez. That could have hurt a lot last night.
Amen. We are lucky, though. It's obvious that FTs are Michigan's Achilles'. And yet...Michigan still hasn't lost one game this year where the missed FTs would have given them the game. Knock on wood that this continues.
Simpson's FT form has changed in recent weeks, though, and it seems to help. He used to be a ~45% shooter. Matthews was around there, too, as of February or so. It's not fully fixed, but it's better, and maybe(?) good enough given their contributions elsewhere. To prove that, they'll need two more games.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 25, 2018, 01:28:56 PM
You can get away with poor free throw shooting with some positions on the court, but your main floor general and PG isn’t one of them. 

Simmons isn’t someone they can throw in for Simpson at the end. The ball handling and defensive drop offs are too significant
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 02:12:38 PM
Simpson's FTs haven't yet cost us a game for good reason, though. Because his defense, assists, and ability to drive to the basket are off the charts.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 02:17:48 PM
Meanwhile, I hadn't until this afternoon seen this article from The Athletic about Rob Gray trash-talking Jordan Poole just before...well, you know. It's not the best trash talk I've read, but it is karmic nonetheless.
https://theathletic.com/283370/2018/03/22/you-dont-know-jordan-poole/

Opening verse:
MILWAUKEE — Moments before Houston’s Devin Davis attempted the first of two free throws to seal an NCAA Tournament win over Michigan, Rob Gray, the Cougars’ high-scoring star, approached Jordan Poole. He smirked. Poole, a Michigan freshman, had just checked back into the game with 3.9 seconds left and his Wolverines trailing by two. 

“Yo, Poole, where you from?” Gray asked. 

Poole winced, gritted his teeth and spit a response. 

“Milwaukee.” 

“That’s nice,” Gray said. “You ‘bout to go back to Milwaukee.” 

This moment, if the forces of nature allowed, should be paused and captured in a bottle. A freeze-frame. Poole glaring at Gray. Gray staring back. Both unflinching. Because this moment, and the one that soon followed — amid the reams and reams of stories that surround the character that is Jordan Poole — represent the marriage of Poole’s split personalities. 

The shot itself, as you all now know,...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 02:19:56 PM
Gray should have opted to play his college basketball for one of the 99% of coaches and 95% of fans who know to put a man on the ball there.  I don't feel bad for him one bit.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 02:25:02 PM
The odd effect of this tourney is because the left side of the bracket devolved into essentially the caliber of a mediocre preseason tournament.  I never thought I'd find myself rooting for Duke, Villanova, Kansas at this time of year, but the left side of the bracket has so cheated us out of marquee matchups, at what is supposed to be the marquee point of the season that I find myself with weird rooting interests in the Friday/Sunday games, just to give me one day of big matchups and at least one marquee Final 4 game next weekend.  I need to go shower now.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 02:34:41 PM
I think we are already guaranteed a marquee FF matchup on the right. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 02:39:33 PM
I think we are already guaranteed a marquee FF matchup on the right.
Yeah, I more meant on Friday night.  I found myself pulling for Villanova, Duke and Kansas surprisingly.
As sports czar I would have given UM Syracuse's place, cancelled the left and had that be the Elite 8.  The right side + UM.  As I said, I like a couple of upsets in thrfirst round, but I like the second round to correct things and it to be a heavyweight fight.  I'm happy for Sister Jean, but I have no use for her at this point in the tournament.

Sacrificing a great regular season in favor of one toirnament feels really lackluster when you get to this point and you have a pair of teams ranked outside the top 35 playing for a spot in the Final 4.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 02:56:05 PM
Speaking of...the following proposal isn't realistic but I agree about disliking huge tourney upsets, and even worse when they are concentrated in regions. (That's as an uninvested bystander, of course; when it favors Michigan I'm up for anything.) 
My strong-strong-so-strong preference is for every national champ to be that *season's* best team. And those odds shrink quickly as you (1) step into a single-elimination tournament and (2) increase the field larger than 2 or 4 teams. 
Assuming that The Madness(TM) is so culturally important that I can't even have a theoretical discussion about it if I start by proposing a 4-team CoFoPO format, I'd say that my next best recommendation would be for a 16-team tournament with either no auto-bids or auto-bids only for P6 schools (the football P5 plus the Big East). 
Teams with resumes less than that make the current March Madness fun but they also degrade the odds that the champion is deserving. A truly serious tourney would be helped by not extending deeper than what we call 4-seeds.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 02:59:07 PM
What about this?

32 team tournament, instead of 64, comprised of all conference champs.  Change all conference tourneys to only permit the top 4 with a best of 3 semifinals, followed by a championship.

Then, since you've gone from 64 to 32, that first weekend is all best of 3 series on the home court of the higher seeded team.  Then proceed from there with the Sweet 16 as is.

FWIW, the fist two Final 4 participants are equivalent in composite computer ranking (#11 and #40) of Washington and Texas in football.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
That's fair. Though I think this was always the kind of season where a mucked up tournament was the most likely. Teams like UVa and Xavier technically earned the right to be 1-seeds. For UVa, they even looked the part (whereas most fans seemed to think Xavier was a paper tiger). But that doesn't change the fact that no one in the Top 10 had a truly dominant season. This was a high-parity season where the top tier was clearly less toppish than normal -much closer to this and past seasons' second and third tiers.
I pointed this out before the tourney with a group I met at the bar. And said, I don't know if it'll ever happen in the next 50 years, but if a 16 is going to take down a 1, it's going to be after a season like this. That wasn't really a prediction. So I can't take credit. But it does underscore the dilemma of this bracket.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 25, 2018, 03:19:52 PM
Anyone in favor of expanding the CFB playoffs?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 03:22:03 PM
I also said (on this board) the only team on the entire left side of the bracket I would pick UM to lose to was UNC, it was a terrible matchup.  But that if Providence or Texas A&M could upset UNC, UM was going to the national title game.  So while it's looking to be true, its the weird prediction that could never actually be proven right.  It could be proven wrong by UM beating UNC, or UM losing to someone other than UNC.  But it could never be right.  Because, like this, it will not prove UM couldn't have beaten UNC if given the chance, and if they had lost to UNC, it could never have been proven theybwould have otherwise beaten anyone else.  But that's how I felt, even without the total.bracket meltdown.  Even if they had been forced to go through Xavier and Virginia or Cincinnati, I would have picked UM.  But with a road of Montana-Houston-Texas A&M-FSU-Loyola, nobody here wouldn't have picked them.

I do feel bad for Purdue fans.  I think they were the best Big Ten team, and with nothing to show for it.  They lost the conference title to MSU because MSU had an easier schedule, they beat UM 2 of 3 times, but the one loss was the one that cost them a banner, then they were given a path that would have required beating 3-1-1/2 to get to a championship game, while UM will get there playing nothing higher than a 6.  You have to be both lucky and good, and Purdue had both Matt Painter and zero luck.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 03:25:48 PM
Anyone in favor of expanding the CFB playoffs?
I stand by the fact that unless the P5 is going to break away for the GO5, a 12 team, 10 auto bid tourney will actually improve the regular season.
I have less issue with Loyola than I do with KSU and FSU hanging around.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 03:36:21 PM
Please no. And I wouldn't mind adding a "conference champions only" qualifier to the 4 who do go...or a situation where the committee has to find the 3 most deserving conference champs and 1 at-large.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 03:41:45 PM
And I'm fine with that too.  But then then the P5 needs to split off.

But let's be honest.  It'll be 8, with 6 auto bids very soon.  So 12 just means you have a reason to care about weeknight MAC and Sun Belt games, even though they will never win those 1st round games.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 03:43:00 PM
This is why I picked Texas Tech to lose to Florida.  Every time I watched them, they defended the hell out of the ball, but couldn't shoot worth shit, or get to the line.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 25, 2018, 03:51:14 PM
My rooting interests obviously sit with michigan but I find this Bill Self Kansas team to be worth rooting for and a bit different. There is no Wiggins, Embiid, etc. They have key players, but it’s more the makeup of the sum of the parts that Hs made them successful. It would be interesting to see this be the team bill self breaks through with after tourney woes with heralded 1 and dones.

Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 03:59:36 PM
My rooting interests obviously sit with michigan but I find this Bill Self Kansas team to be worth rooting for and a bit different. There is no Wiggins, Embiid, etc. They have key players, but it’s more the makeup of the sum of the parts that Hs made them successful. It would be interesting to see this be the team bill self breaks through with after tourney woes with heralded 1 and dones.


I've actually never really had a problem with Self's teams.  I'll eliminate Izzo for home purposes, but among the coaching royalty, I've never had an issue with him compared to K, Pitino, Roy, etc...
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 04:20:09 PM
Did not think Villanova would be in a game, let alone leading, shooting this poorly
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 25, 2018, 06:55:40 PM
Mrs. 847 asked me who I wanted to win, and I said a giant meteor would be good.

She said, "So Kansas then? I hate Dook."

And so it's been said.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 25, 2018, 07:11:23 PM
Two more quotes from Mrs. 847:

"He looks like a weasel."

"I'd like to slap that look off his face."


Take a guess who would be the victim.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 07:42:53 PM
Only thing better than Dook losing is Grayson missing the key shot in both regulation and OT
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 25, 2018, 07:54:59 PM
I thought that Grayson shot was falling at the end of regulation.

Duke’s zone was incredibly soft. The high post to baseline was open all day and when Kansas made a few three’s there was little they could do.

The OT ended up hanging on that block/charge call. Carter fouls out and Kansas ties it up. If Duke gets that call, I think th script flips
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 25, 2018, 08:19:00 PM
The officials tried really hard to help Dook. They really did. They always do. Really.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 08:51:07 PM
I never understand the Duke hate, so I came close to pulling for them, but I think Kansas, without that zone defense, is a better match-up for Michigan. The worst match-up, should Michigan get there, is Villanova. They are the same team as Michigan but more talented.

Michigan : Loyola :: Villanova : Michigan

But that's why we play.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 08:55:20 PM
Michigan would have decimated that zone.  Duke was prbabpro the best matchup for them.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 09:11:49 PM
Oh. They seemed to be, if not Michigan, the nation's hottest team since February. And I've been led to believe zones take Michigan out if its flow. I guess I know less than the little I thought I knew.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 10:17:25 PM
I think in terms of talent, yes.  But defensively, they were terrible, which is why they went to that zone, and dared teams to shoot them out of it.  I think both Villanova and Michigan would have.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 25, 2018, 11:02:49 PM
I'm out of my depth range but the specific thing I thought I saw was that, in terms of Defensive Efficiency (KenPom?), they were the best in the Field of 64 since the beginning of February - with Michigan 2nd and UVa in around somewhere up there.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 25, 2018, 11:09:58 PM
That's possible, I know they improved once they abandoned their man defense, which was outside the top 100.  I didn't realize it had improved that much.  I still would take my chances with Michigan against that zone, considering it's certainly not Ks MO
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on March 25, 2018, 11:33:00 PM
I never really understand why people hate the tourney setup. It’s all about being hot at the right time, as are many sports. 
Personally, I don’t need a marquee matchup as long as the basketball is good. I’ll take a hot Loyola team over a team getting hype just because of tradition and history, but not playing great ball (UNC). The outcome is left on the court as opposed to hotel conference rooms like college football.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 26, 2018, 12:35:57 AM
I think that's fine, too, Super. And I wouldn't call it tourney hate. The distinction we were making is whether an ideal tournament will be chiefly (1) entertaining or chiefly (2) about maximizing the odds that the champ is the team that was the best overall since October. 
My point wasn't to say the current tournament isn't fun. It might be maximally fun. I just value the other thing even more. It sounds like you're moreso in it for the entertainment value. I can respect that. 
But the downside for me is that we call this tourney champion the entire season's champion. But it isn't that. It's just a 3-week tourney champion.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 26, 2018, 06:45:21 AM
Unfortunately, the trophy doesn't say "tourney" champion. It says something different.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 26, 2018, 08:44:27 AM
Yeah, it's not a "helmet" thing, I don't care if it's UNC or Xavier.  Just as a fan whose team is out and whose bracket is busted, I want to watch good basketball.  Nothing to diminish a team getting hot at the right time.  But there's also a reason the caliber of basketball on Sunday was WAY better than on Saturday.  Florida State and Kansas State were teams that finished like 8th in their own conferences.  They simply weren't all that good.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 26, 2018, 08:49:16 AM
Loyola played a pretty solid game Saturday. I enjoy watching team basketball.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 26, 2018, 09:02:04 AM
I never really understand why people hate the tourney setup. It’s all about being hot at the right time, as are many sports.
Personally, I don’t need a marquee matchup as long as the basketball is good. I’ll take a hot Loyola team over a team getting hype just because of tradition and history, but not playing great ball (UNC). The outcome is left on the court as opposed to hotel conference rooms like college football.
Nobody bitches when a WC wins the Super Bowl.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 26, 2018, 09:27:27 AM
Nobody bitches when a WC wins the Super Bowl.  
I disagree that nobody does, we have on here before.
But I think there are a couple of differences.
(1) We are used to having series in the NBA, and we know we can't get that in football, so we are willing to accept the flukiness of any sort of football playoff.
(2) the NFL playoffs are so much smaller, that at least you went through the bulk of more deserving teams to get there.  A Wildcard that reaches the Super Bowl beat 3/5 of the other playoff teams from their conference, and the way the bracket is set up, almost certainly they were 3 of the 4 division champs.  In the NCAA basketball tournament, you only play 5 of 31 teams on your side of the bracket, and there's no guarantee they are even the good ones.  Like when George Mason made their run, even though they weren't one of the best 4 teams, they did go through Michigan State, North Carolina and UConn to get there, so we more accepted it.  But the way things happened this year, it wasn't the teams that made it that knocked off the top teams, other teams knocked off the top teams, then Michigan and Loyola knocked off those teams.
(3) I was never talking about legitimacy of a champion.  You have to be both lucky and good.  That was my point about Purdue.  I think they still are the best team in the Big Ten, but they didn't get the scheduling luck MSU had during the regular season; or other teams knocking of all the big boys luck that Michigan had in the postseason, so they are going home.  I was simply saying as a neutral fan, I was a little bummed about the caliber of basketball we were stuck with on Thursday/Saturday.  It was a shell of what we saw on Friday/Sunday, and as a fan, I feel a little cheated there.  And that does carry to the NFL.  I was bummed we didn't get a Patriots-Steelers AFC Championship.  I have a little Warriors-Cavs fatigue at this point, but I'm glad we didn't get Warriors-Raptors or something last year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 26, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Nobody bitches when a WC wins the Super Bowl.  
Oh, I don’t like it when a WC wins the SB.  I especially didn’t like it when the 9-7 Giants won it and didn’t like it when the 9-7 Cardinals made it.  It just feels like the wrong result to me.

My conundrum is I love the NCAA Tournament.  It’s my favorite sporting event, but I also prefer to crown the most consistent, best teams over the course of the season the champion.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 26, 2018, 09:46:12 AM
Oh, I don’t like it when a WC wins the SB.  I especially didn’t like it when the 9-7 Giants won it and didn’t like it when the 9-7 Cardinals made it.  It just feels like the wrong result to me.

My conundrum is I love the NCAA Tournament.  It’s my favorite sporting event, but I also prefer to crown the most consistent, best teams over the course of the season the champion.
I like a spattering of upsets in the first round, but I like the 2nd round to be boring chalk games, that gives us a really strong Sweet 16
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 26, 2018, 10:14:29 AM
I like a spattering of upsets in the first round, but I like the 2nd round to be boring chalk games, that gives us a really strong Sweet 16
Agree!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 26, 2018, 10:17:05 AM
And I'm fine with that too.  But then then the P5 needs to split off.

But let's be honest.  It'll be 8, with 6 auto bids very soon.  So 12 just means you have a reason to care about weeknight MAC and Sun Belt games, even though they will never win those 1st round games.
I agree completely that it will be eight with six auto-bids very soon.  The only point of clarification that I would add is that the sixth auto-bid will be a quasi-auto-bid given to the highest ranked Go5 Champ while the other five will be straight-up auto-bids for the P5 Champs.  
I disagree with the theory that going to 12 would give me a reason to watch weeknight MAC games because, as you said, they'll never win those first round games anyway so who cares which MAC team gets the opportunity to get run off the field?  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 26, 2018, 10:22:19 AM
I know it's self-serving, but as a Chicago sports (and non-Cub) fan, I'm enjoying this Loyola thing. It's brought energy to the City, and that's fine by me.

I'd rather read about the Ramblers and Sister Jean on the front page than read about how many kids got murdered over the weekend.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 26, 2018, 10:23:43 AM
Oh, I don’t like it when a WC wins the SB.  I especially didn’t like it when the 9-7 Giants won it and didn’t like it when the 9-7 Cardinals made it.  It just feels like the wrong result to me.

My conundrum is I love the NCAA Tournament.  It’s my favorite sporting event, but I also prefer to crown the most consistent, best teams over the course of the season the champion.
This is where I am.  I love the NCAA Tournament because it is a win-or-go-home deal.  That makes it exciting but at the same time it creates a situation in which the best team only rarely wins the National Championship.  Look at the runs to the Final Four:
#1 Nova:
#1 Kansas:
#11 Loyola-Chicago:
#3 Michigan:
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 26, 2018, 10:42:49 AM
Medina - When I look back at the last three years I would say the opposite. The best team has been crowned. It’s hard to argue any of those three champions were not the best team in th country.

If Villanova wins this year I believe that holds to form. I also think that would be true if Kansas or Michigan won. Both had January and early Feb struggles, but both are two of the hottest teams in the country that haven’t lost a game in some time. And, each won their conference tournaments. If Michigan were to win they will have won their last 15 games, B1G tourney champs, won 35 games, etc.

Even Loyola could make a case; if they beat Michigan and then knock off a dominant 1 seed in the championship.

There are the years like 2011 when UCONN got hot and rode Kemba, but those seem to be more the exception.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 26, 2018, 11:03:21 AM
Even a tourney that only featured regular season Conference Champions would have upsets.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 26, 2018, 11:25:52 AM
If i look back at the last 12 years. In 10 of those 12 years a legitimate resume is in place for the NCAA champ, to also be deemed “the best.” Others could make that case too, but at least you can feel comfortable with the National Champion having a resume of one of th best few teams in the country.

The two exceptions where it becomes really hard to make that case are UConn’s two titles. Those were really good runs at the right time. 

More often than not we get a champ worthy of the title on paper and the whole body of work. For 3 of 4 final four contestants this year that should be true. All top 8 in KenPom. Sure, you could point to Virginia or Villanova (if they don’t win), but beyond that the champ should stack up.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on March 26, 2018, 12:04:47 PM
I disagree that nobody does, we have on here before.
But I think there are a couple of differences.
(1) We are used to having series in the NBA, and we know we can't get that in football, so we are willing to accept the flukiness of any sort of football playoff.
(2) the NFL playoffs are so much smaller, that at least you went through the bulk of more deserving teams to get there.  A Wildcard that reaches the Super Bowl beat 3/5 of the other playoff teams from their conference, and the way the bracket is set up, almost certainly they were 3 of the 4 division champs.  In the NCAA basketball tournament, you only play 5 of 31 teams on your side of the bracket, and there's no guarantee they are even the good ones.  Like when George Mason made their run, even though they weren't one of the best 4 teams, they did go through Michigan State, North Carolina and UConn to get there, so we more accepted it.  But the way things happened this year, it wasn't the teams that made it that knocked off the top teams, other teams knocked off the top teams, then Michigan and Loyola knocked off those teams.
(3) I was never talking about legitimacy of a champion.  You have to be both lucky and good.  That was my point about Purdue.  I think they still are the best team in the Big Ten, but they didn't get the scheduling luck MSU had during the regular season; or other teams knocking of all the big boys luck that Michigan had in the postseason, so they are going home.  I was simply saying as a neutral fan, I was a little bummed about the caliber of basketball we were stuck with on Thursday/Saturday.  It was a shell of what we saw on Friday/Sunday, and as a fan, I feel a little cheated there.  And that does carry to the NFL.  I was bummed we didn't get a Patriots-Steelers AFC Championship.  I have a little Warriors-Cavs fatigue at this point, but I'm glad we didn't get Warriors-Raptors or something last year.
I rarely disagree with your underlying opinions, but we're the sun and the moon on this. 
1) I think the caliber of basketball this weekend was fantastic. I see Michigan, Florida State & Loyola similar to seeing great defenses and low scoring games in football or a 1-0 pitchers duel in baseball. It may not be sexy to the average fan, but the quality of the team and what is happening at the finest details of the game are truly something watch. The length & athleticism of FSU were incredible.
2) How often do we as fans think we know who the best teams are based on paper or previous games, just to watch in surprise as the teams on the field or court give us a different outcome. I was confident that the Indians were a far better team than the Yankees last year. The outcome surprising. I think most, if not all sports, have an element of being at your best at the correct time, rather than best during the season. Otherwise, wouldn't the team with the most wins during the season always win the title? If the Cavs missed playing Houston, Oklahoma City & San Antonio in 2016, does it mean they were not the best team, yet not questioning the legitimacy of their championship? If we start going down that road, why crown a champion in any sport instead of just having regular season champs?
It seems this argument comes up when we can't make sense of the outcome. I'm not pointing the finger since I'm just as guilty as anyone. Flukiness in sports makes us question if the system is right instead of just appreciating that the human element is something that isn't always predictable or logical. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 26, 2018, 02:47:07 PM
@HailHailMSP (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1629) ,

I get it.  You can make an argument for plenty of the winners but, at a minimum, you can agree that there are frequently teams that make the final four that are nowhere near the top-4 in the country.  

When I think of my own team in this context I remember plenty of years when they weren't a top-4 team but got in either because they got lucky or got hot and other years when they were a top-4 team and didn't sniff the final four either because they got unlucky or cold.  

Loyola-Chicago clearly isn't one of the best four or for that matter best forty teams in the country but there they are.  

@SuperMario (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1596) ,
I'm with ELA.  You stated that the length and athleticism of FSU were incredible but please note that they were a .500 team in the ACC.  If their length and athleticism were really that great they would have finished better than 9-9.  

A big part of the "luck" portion of the NCAA Tournament is having your off games at times when you can afford them.  For example, in Ohio State's run to the CG in 2007 they barely survived #8 seed Xavier in OT in the second round and only beat #4 seed Tennessee by one point in the sweet sixteen.  Thereafter they heated up and spanked #2 seed Memphis in the Regional Final and beat #2 seed Georgetown in the semi-final.  

Michigan played a great game against aTm but despite Mario's awe at the Seminoles' length and athleticism, FSU isn't very good.  Michigan has played really well in one of their four tournament games so far.  Now they get a highly unusual freebie in the semi-final and then if they play really well in the final game they have about a 50/50 chance of being the National Champion.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 26, 2018, 03:24:42 PM
And I also don't want to conflate a critique of Michigan with a critique of Michigan's path.  I'm perfectly ok with Michigan being there.  As I said earlier, the only team on the entire left side of the bracket I didn't think they would beat was UNC.  So even if it had been Xavier in the Elite 8, and Virginia in the Final 4, I still would have picked Michigan to the national title game with only the knowledge that Texas A&M beat UNC.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 26, 2018, 03:46:40 PM
Yes, I would agree that frequently many teams outside the Top 4 make the Final Four. Taking this year as an example, Villanova is the only team in the Final Four, that is clearly in the Top 4 by any computer metric you look at. Kansas falls into the Top 4 in most. Michigan is in the top 4 in some (as high as #2 with Massey, as low as #9 with Sagarin). Loyola is not Top 4 in any. And, many years there are 1-2 Loyola's in the Final Four.

My only notation, was that when its all said and done, if Michigan, Kansas, or Villanova win, they will likely be in that Top 3-4 of all the key computer metrics. That has been the case 11 of the last 12 years, with 2014 UConn being the rare exception. Since 2006 12 teams have been a 5 seed or greater in the Final Four. 1 has won the title.

It was interesting to me that 3 of the last 4 Final Four runs for Michigan State were as 5 seeds or higher. Would not have guessed that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 26, 2018, 04:01:11 PM
And I also don't want to conflate a critique of Michigan with a critique of Michigan's path.  I'm perfectly ok with Michigan being there.  As I said earlier, the only team on the entire left side of the bracket I didn't think they would beat was UNC.  So even if it had been Xavier in the Elite 8, and Virginia in the Final 4, I still would have picked Michigan to the national title game with only the knowledge that Texas A&M beat UNC.
Nothing speaks to the randomness of the tournament better than the North Carolina / A&M and Michigan / A&M results. And, less about who won or loss and more about the margin of victory in each game.

And I agree, I struggled with picking Michigan and Michigan State further than their ACC kryptonite (Carolina & Duke). I liked their odds against most anyone else in each of their respective regions.

On Michigan's path to the tourney I think they had two good performances, one mediocre, and one poor. Texas A&M was a great performance, minus the lax defense in the 2nd half. I think Houston was too, mostly because I think Houston was a fantastic team. They were Top 10 defensively in the country with a high scoring guard and depth with long and athletic post players. It was an ugly game at times against an opponent that would likely be 1 game away from a National Championship appearance if it were not for Jordan Poole. I would put Houston next to UNC and Michigan in the Top 3 in the region. KenPom had them near the 4 seed line coming into the tourney. Michigan played unbelievable on one end against FSU, and terrible on the other. Not something you can usually get away with in a region final. Michigan found good fortune that their opponent was who it was at that point. Montana was a mess, but something you can get away with in Round 1 when seeded in the top 3 or 4.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 27, 2018, 08:21:18 AM
I saw a stat earlier that whereas Michigan has been losing about 7/8 of their games when scoring less than 1PPP, this year they are winning 70% of those games.
Michigan can win so many ways now, which is so essential in a single-elimination tourney like this where a bad match-up or cold streak sends most teams packing.
Luke Yaklich deserves a tripling of his salary. Don't let that one go.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2018, 08:48:32 AM
I saw a stat earlier that whereas Michigan has been losing about 7/8 of their games when scoring less than 1PPP, this year they are winning 70% of those games.
Michigan can win so many ways now, which is so essential in a single-elimination tourney like this where a bad match-up or cold streak sends most teams packing.
Luke Yaklich deserves a tripling of his salary. Don't let that one go.
I was reading about him. What a key addition that was.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 27, 2018, 09:14:34 AM
Beilein definitely did his homework on that one:
https://247sports.com/college/michigan/Article/Once-more-Michigan-basketballs-revamped-defense-saves-the-day-as-Wolverines-make-Final-Four-116664660
Excerpt on the hiring process:
Quote
“I want a guy that can teach,” Beilein recalled thinking. “I don't care what you know, if you can't teach it.”
Beilein was more thorough in vetting Yaklich than Donlon — who had three 20-win seasons as a head coach. He met with Yaklich’s former high school principal, as many of his coworkers with the Redbirds as possible and even asked for practice tapes to see how Yaklich taught things.
It took six weeks, but Beilein eventually made the hire.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 27, 2018, 09:28:55 AM
There was a pretty good article in one of the Detroit papers a week ago about how 13 months ago UM fans were calling for Beilein's head, and he recognized he had to change.  He gave his players more freedom, and he made this home run hire, and deferred to him on what he knew.

Fast forward, now it's time for Izzo to do the same.  The things he built his program on don't work anymore.  You need bigger guards.  You need to be able to run clean offensive sets.  You can't bully teams with bigs down low.  MSU's rebounding numbers still look good, but it's not because they are a great rebounding team, it's because teams don't send guys to the offensive glass against them.  They drop back, and are willing to give MSU the board, in exchange for not giving up transition points going the other way, because if you get MSU into a half court game, they are going to struggle.  Like Beilein brought in a defensive guru, it's time for Izzo to do the same with his offense.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 27, 2018, 11:52:15 AM
Yaklich has been a dream hire. That combined with a PG that embraces the defensive end of the court with each possession have really turned the tables. Matthews is a fantastic defender too, just in his versatility. He matches up with the 1 - 4 positions on the court.

Yaklich might also be directly helpful this week. Coming from Illinois State he game planned Loyola 8-10 times over the last five years. The same goes for Saddi Washington on staff as well

Denzel Valentine's brother may also be helpful for Loyola. He was a student manager with Izzo and coached at Oakland. I am sure he has a good basis for Michigan's system as an up and coming assistant too.

Having some assistant turnover from time to time might be a good thing for programs. I was thinking about that as I saw the same old faces on Duke's bench on Sunday, as the zone was getting ripped to shreds. Do any of those guys bring creativity to the table or feel they have the ability to own a part of the game plan or provide input?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 27, 2018, 12:53:33 PM
Having some assistant turnover from time to time might be a good thing for programs. I was thinking about that as I saw the same old faces on Duke's bench on Sunday, as the zone was getting ripped to shreds. Do any of those guys bring creativity to the table or feel they have the ability to own a part of the game plan or provide input?
MSU fans have the same complaint.  Not enough new voices among the assistants.  Apparently Fife (who quit as head coach at IPFW to come to MSU as an assistant) is a leader for the Detroit Mercy job, and MSU fans are hoping he takes it.  No reason to fire any of them, but it might be time to move along.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 01:27:23 PM
This has been probably been discussed on here before but what would everyone think about a rule change that eliminated fouling out?   Every foul beyond a player’s fifth would result in an automatic 3 FT for the opposition (4 if it occurred on a 3 pointer).  I just hate seeing players having to sit.

You are still punishing for too much hacking but it’s a different consequence.  The coach still has a strategic decision to make.  Do you keep a guy out there with 5 fouls knowing a whistle could cost you 3 points?  Just wondering. I have a couple of buddies I ran it by who hated it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 27, 2018, 01:35:31 PM
The foul-related rules I'd favor are the ones that would stop the crappy-stop-go-stop final two minutes of most basketball games. Imagine how smoothly games would end if deliberate fouling was always a bad idea? How could that be accomplished? I'm not sure how popular this will be, but if non-shooting fouls are restructured to both give one dead ball FT (when in the bonus) *and* return the ball to the team that was fouled, that would go all the way to fixing the problem.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2018, 01:46:31 PM
The foul-related rules I'd favor are the ones that would stop the crappy-stop-go-stop final two minutes of most basketball games. Imagine how smoothly games would end if deliberate fouling was always a bad idea? How could that be accomplished? I'm not sure how popular this will be, but if non-shooting fouls are restructured to both give one dead ball FT (when in the bonus) *and* return the ball to the team that was fouled, that would go all the way to fixing the problem.
In the last one minute, this would be fine with me.

How about a technical foul, ejection and one game suspension for the head coach that has his team intentionally fouling, down 15 in the last minute?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 27, 2018, 01:50:57 PM
Yeah, the problem is, I don't find it much more enjoyable when an 8 point lead with 2:30 to go is game over because the team can just sit on the ball for 2 minutes.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 02:04:00 PM
The foul-related rules I'd favor are the ones that would stop the crappy-stop-go-stop final two minutes of most basketball games. Imagine how smoothly games would end if deliberate fouling was always a bad idea? How could that be accomplished? I'm not sure how popular this will be, but if non-shooting fouls are restructured to both give one dead ball FT (when in the bonus) *and* return the ball to the team that was fouled, that would go all the way to fixing the problem.
So if a team is down 2 with 20 seconds left they are in pretty bad shape then.  I get the spirit of what you are trying to accomplish but I think it would have unintended consequences.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2018, 02:34:41 PM
There are unintended consequences with anything. Coaches are smart. They'll find ways to expose holes in any rule set.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 02:45:14 PM
There are unintended consequences with anything. Coaches are smart. They'll find ways to expose holes in any rule set.


I mean, maybe.  Sounds like we’re trading allowing a team an opportunity for a team to comeback so that the fans can get home 15 minutes sooner.  If someone gets tired of watching that they can always leave or change the channel.  No one is forcing us to sit there.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 27, 2018, 03:07:19 PM
Yeah, the problem is, I don't find it much more enjoyable when an 8 point lead with 2:30 to go is game over because the team can just sit on the ball for 2 minutes.
That an end-of-game lead would be harder to surmount is a kind of problem...maybem, and I'm sure there would be other problems (with the ball and less than 30s, no need to wait out the clock; blow the whistle; the winner just wins), but at least those problems would maximize the importance of the first 38 minutes rather than somewhat undo their importance with a skillless stoppage strategy that most fans find contemptible. Which isn't just about the slow finish. It's also about favoring a hokey kind of chaos maximization over winning via standard basketball.

I guess the end of game fouling has always felt to me like one of those loopholes that all sports typically grimace at and close as soon as coaches notice/start taking advantage of, but somehow this one has lasted for decades.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on March 27, 2018, 03:11:51 PM
 

Michigan played a great game against aTm but despite Mario's awe at the Seminoles' length and athleticism, FSU isn't very good.  Michigan has played really well in one of their four tournament games so far.  Now they get a highly unusual freebie in the semi-final and then if they play really well in the final game they have about a 50/50 chance of being the National Champion.  
So a team that beat Xavier, Gonzaga, Louisville, Clemson, Miami, Florida Missouri and UNC isn’t very good? I’d say they’ve been inconsistent, but it doesn’t seem to fit your narrative. 3 of those teams are top 11 of the RPI and they also played a tight game with virginia.
No game in the final four is a freebie. Did you know Loyola was 22 in the RPi before the tourney started? Statistics seem to contradict quite a bit of your post and I know you like statistics.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 27, 2018, 03:14:34 PM
I find basketball to be a little soft as it is. Hence the appreciation for the Huggins-style hoops. 

So I typically don't advocate for reducing the amount of contact. Yet I don't necessarily hate the coward's idea.

They point that it would reduce the number of comebacks is a sound one, however.

surely there must be a happy medium. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 03:15:49 PM
That an end-of-game lead would be harder to surmount is a kind of problem...maybem, and I'm sure there would be other problems (with the ball and less than 30s, no need to wait out the clock; blow the whistle; the winner just wins), but at least those problems would maximize the importance of the first 38 minutes rather than somewhat undo their importance with a skillless stoppage strategy that most fans find contemptible. Which isn't just about the slow finish. It's also about favoring a hokey kind of chaos maximization over winning via standard basketball.

I guess the end of game fouling has always felt to me like one of those loopholes that all sports typically grimace at and close as soon as coaches notice/start taking advantage of, but somehow this one has lasted for decades.




I think that rule would have cost your team its last two Final Four appearances.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 27, 2018, 03:19:30 PM
There are unintended consequences with anything. Coaches are smart. They'll find ways to expose holes in any rule set.
Ok coach, what is your solution?  
I don't mean that to be snarky, I mean that as a serious question.  The problem I see with dude's suggestion is that, as @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55)  mentioned, the ends of a lot more BB games would become very boring.  
Under dude's suggestion a non-shooting foul would result in one FT and the fouled team keeping the ball.  Ok, lets work through ELA's example:
Fouling doesn't help because it doesn't get you the ball back and (presumably) actually makes your situation worse because it resets the shot-clock.  So start at Team-A, 78:  Team-B, 70, Team-A's ball with 2:30 to go and 30 seconds on the shot clock:

In order for Team-B to win they have to go 3-3 on highly unlikely quick and mostly long-range shots AND Team-A has to go 0-3 on their much more deliberate shots.  An eight point lead with 2:00 (or even ELA's 2:30) to go would be effectively impossible to overcome.  

Look, I get that an eight point lead with 2:00 or 2:30 to go is already difficult to overcome but the ending is still exciting because it isn't impossible.  Under the current rules if Team-A doesn't make their FT's then Team-B can catch up.  Even if Team-A does make their FT's, Team-B can catch up with three point shots.  It is exciting because Team-B is still in the game.  

Consider @Kris61 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1432) 's example that you were more directly responding to:
The game is basically over.  The only way for Team-B to win is to force a turnover.  Otherwise they are done, Team-A can just dribble out the last 20 seconds and go home.  If Team-B fouls it does nothing except give Team-A the opportunity to push their lead to three points.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 27, 2018, 03:42:59 PM
So a team that beat Xavier, Gonzaga, Louisville, Clemson, Miami, Florida Missouri and UNC isn’t very good? I’d say they’ve been inconsistent, but it doesn’t seem to fit your narrative. 3 of those teams are top 11 of the RPI and they also played a tight game with virginia.
No game in the final four is a freebie. Did you know Loyola was 22 in the RPi before the tourney started? Statistics seem to contradict quite a bit of your post and I know you like statistics.
That same FSU team that beat that group also lost to OkSU, Dook, Miami, Louisville, Boston College, Wake Forest, Virginia, Notre Dame, NCST, Clemson, and Louisville again.  Fine, inconsistent.  I still agree with ELA, the quality of BB on the left side of the bracket was a LOT worse this past weekend and will be a LOT worse this Saturday then the quality of BB on the Right side of the bracket.  
No, I didn't know Loyola was #22 in the RPI before the tournament started but I can tell you that Sagrin has them at #56 as of yesterday (Mon, Mar 26) which is AFTER accounting for their four NCAA wins over KSU, Nevada, Tennessee, and Miami.  FWIW, per Sagrin Michigan's other NCAA opponents have been:

Playing a team that Sagrin has ranked #56 even AFTER they won four NCAA games to get to the Final Four is absolutely the definition of getting a freebie. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 27, 2018, 03:51:11 PM
I want to clarify something here because I don't want there to be confusion on this point:  As @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55)  said earlier, I don't want a critique of Michigan's path to be confused with a critique of Michigan, this isn't.  At the end of the day all a team can do is win the games against the teams on the other side of the court.  Some teams get unlucky.  @bwarbiany (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) has referenced Purdue's bad luck in getting high-end S16 opponents year-after-year and @Kris61 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1432) mentioned the same thing in reference to his Mountaineers.  Other teams get lucky.  Even if you get lucky though, you still have to actually win the games or else it doesn't matter.  

I wish my team had done exactly that.  Ohio State's path to the CG would only have been marginally more difficult than Michigan's.  It would have been:


I have long felt that the primary importance of getting a high seed is so that you can afford an off game early.  Ohio State (and even moreso Michigan) got that in the first round.  I still maintain that Michigan did not play well in the second round.  To their credit though, they earned a high enough seed that even though they played the highest possible seed (ie, no upset) in the second round, they still didn't have to play all that well to win.  Ohio State failed to do that.  They only earned a #5 seed so they had to play a better team in the second round and they lost.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 27, 2018, 04:05:28 PM
Rules like this are never enacted, but the system would be better even if, beginning at 2:00 in regulation, refs called non-shooting fouls in an alternating fashion:

Foul 1 by team A: team B gets one FT and keeps possession of the ball
Foul 2 by team A: team B gets as many shots as the bonus requires and possession follows the classic protocol
(...) Repeat pattern as necessary.

That's a compromise that will never happen but could solve the dilemma. The biggest problem I have with it is how inelegant it is. But basketball hasn't rejected the "possession arrow," so I guess that's not a deal-breaker after all.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on March 27, 2018, 04:08:45 PM
Michigan won the B1G tourney and was the hottest team in the big ten and got a terrible draw, being sent out west while MSU was able to stay home in Detroit. It’s funny in hindsight that everyone thinks Michigan made out, when the narrative was very different two weeks ago.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I simply don’t understand the opinion that Michigan v FSU & Loyola v K State was not good basketball and Michigan. V Loyola won’t be great basketball either. I’ve really enjoye the type of game Loyola plays. It’s far from the sloppy, but athletic style that many “high ranking” rosters with a lot of one and fines play. Fundamentals matter for my viewing pleasure so I’m excited for two very different games this weekend.

Based on the feedback, whoever wins between Michigan and Loyola should walk right off the court and congratulate Nova or Kansas as National champs.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 27, 2018, 04:10:32 PM
Rarely hear of Sagarin cited for college basketball these days. Maybe it’s just me. RPI, KenPom frequently are brought up. Massey to some extent too.

In those Loyola is 22,30, and 8 respectively. So Sagarin is a major outlier.

Michigan certainly hasn’t faced murderers row this year. But by most computer metrics Houston was a 4/5 seed that was underseeded. The Houston game was ugly in style, but Michigan beat a top notch team. FSU wasn’t a world class opponent, especially for the Elite Eight. But they were a unique matchup problem type team, and Michigan advanced with supreme domination on one end of the court. .7PPP on defense was lower by some margin than any FSU opponent all year. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2018, 04:11:20 PM
Michigan won the B1G tourney and was the hottest team in the big ten and got a terrible draw, being sent out west while MSU was able to stay home in Detroit. It’s funny in hindsight that everyone thinks Michigan made out, when the narrative was very different two weeks ago.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I simply don’t understand the opinion that Michigan v FSU & Loyola v K State was not good basketball and Michigan. V Loyola won’t be great basketball either. I’ve really enjoye the type of game Loyola plays. It’s far from the sloppy, but athletic style that many “high ranking” rosters with a lot of one and fines play. Fundamentals matter for my viewing pleasure so I’m excited for two very different games this weekend.

Based on the feedback, whoever wins between Michigan and Loyola should walk right off the court and congratulate Nova or Kansas as National champs.
Reading my mind?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 04:22:23 PM
This has been probably been discussed on here before but what would everyone think about a rule change that eliminated fouling out?   Every foul beyond a player’s fifth would result in an automatic 3 FT for the opposition (4 if it occurred on a 3 pointer).  I just hate seeing players having to sit.

You are still punishing for too much hacking but it’s a different consequence.  The coach still has a strategic decision to make.  Do you keep a guy out there with 5 fouls knowing a whistle could cost you 3 points?  Just wondering. I have a couple of buddies I ran it by who hated it.
Can I be a douche and bump my own post?  Lol.  I really did want to get some feedback on this.  I think AC one upped me with a pretty off the wall suggestion.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2018, 04:26:48 PM
I'm not going to pretend that I have answers for the last two minutes. My responses have been in jest, mostly because I despise the last two minutes of most games. It sucks as a fan and it sucks for the players.

It also sucks that in the case of the Loyola/KSU game, KSU made the game last probably 15 minutes longer than it should have, given the deficit. That caused a delay to the start of the next game (M/FSU), which was already on late.


And M fans need to not complain about being sent West. That is reserved for UW fans. See 2014 and 2015 for reference.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 04:28:17 PM
Rules like this are never enacted, but the system would be better even if, beginning at 2:00 in regulation, refs called non-shooting fouls in an alternating fashion:

Foul 1 by team A: team B gets one FT and keeps possession of the ball
Foul 2 by team A: team B gets as many shots as the bonus requires and possession follows the classic protocol
(...) Repeat pattern as necessary.

That's a compromise that will never happen but could solve the dilemma. The biggest problem I have with it is how inelegant it is. But basketball hasn't rejected the "possession arrow," so I guess that's not a deal-breaker after all.
All that does is exacerabate the end of game situation you are complaining about.  Now you are forcing the team that is behind to foul twice as much in order to get the ball back.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 27, 2018, 04:34:03 PM
Michigan won the B1G tourney and was the hottest team in the big ten and got a terrible draw, being sent out west while MSU was able to stay home in Detroit. It’s funny in hindsight that everyone thinks Michigan made out, when the narrative was very different two weeks ago.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I simply don’t understand the opinion that Michigan v FSU & Loyola v K State was not good basketball and Michigan. V Loyola won’t be great basketball either. I’ve really enjoye the type of game Loyola plays. It’s far from the sloppy, but athletic style that many “high ranking” rosters with a lot of one and fines play. Fundamentals matter for my viewing pleasure so I’m excited for two very different games this weekend.

Based on the feedback, whoever wins between Michigan and Loyola should walk right off the court and congratulate Nova or Kansas as National champs.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2018, 04:36:50 PM
Can I be a douche and bump my own post?  Lol.  I really did want to get some feedback on this.  I think AC one upped me with a pretty off the wall suggestion.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on March 27, 2018, 04:42:01 PM
MB - you know I have a tremendous amount of respect for your opinion, but you’re blinded by seedings and rankings right now as opposed to the quality of the basketball a team is playing. Loyola has played great basketball and I’m not confident Michigan can take them down.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 27, 2018, 04:42:16 PM
I like that players foul out. If a coach takes the risk of fouling as a strategy and uses his best players to do so, then so be it.
You don't use the starters. You.... 
"Send in the goons." 
(https://a2-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/113/af84dfa9bc414542b04cc1ddceb80f8a/full.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 27, 2018, 04:43:36 PM
"I didn't say and I don't think that @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) said that M/FSU and Loyola/KSU were complete crap basketball or, as you put it, "not good basketball".  It was good, but it wasn't great and it wasn't at the level of the right hand side of the bracket. "

I disagree strongly with this. Dook and Kansas played sloppy basketball. Just because they have the most talent doesn't mean they played the best basketball.

I didn't see the first game on Sunday because I got mixed up and thought that the times were similar to Saturday. It was only after checking on here and seeing ELA's comment on Nova that I figured it out. But it sounds like it was a good showing by Nova.

Loyola played the ultimate team game Saturday. It was great to watch. M/FSU was a little sloppy - lots of bodies crashing together.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 27, 2018, 04:44:39 PM
Can I be a douche
Sure, go ahead.   :)
I really did want to get some feedback on this.
For those not following, "this" is Kris's suggestion that instead of players "fouling out" the other team gets one extra foul shot for fouls committed by that player.  His reasoning is that he hates seeing players have to sit.  

Honestly, I'm trying to work through the unintended consequences in my head.  In CBB you get five fouls in a 48 minute game and in the NBA you get six in a 60 minute game so either way it is about one foul allowed every 10 minutes of game time.  That is pretty standard and we've been accustomed to it for decades so a change would be a pretty big deal, IMHO.  
As I think about it, it seems to me that the biggest difference would be that depth would be less important, especially at the post position.  I'm not sure if that would be good or bad for the game in the long run.  

I also think that you might need to have some kind of escalator clause built into that rule (which would probably make it too complicated) because otherwise the smart play would be to just continually foul a bad FT shooter.  Ie, imagine that your team is playing against a team with a Center who is a great defender and good a finishing around the rim but he only shoots ~50% FT's.  Well, why not foul him every time he shoots from the paint?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 27, 2018, 04:48:17 PM
MB - you know I have a tremendous amount of respect for your opinion, but you’re blinded by seedings and rankings right now as opposed to the quality of the basketball a team is playing. Loyola has played great basketball and I’m not confident Michigan can take them down.
If it were my team, I'd be worried about the game too but that is because I always worry when it is my team.  Since it isn't my team, I can look at it from farther away and I don't expect a contest in the first semi-final at all.  FWIW: that has little to do with Michigan.  I'd feel the same way about Loyola/Kansas or Loyola/Villanova.  For that matter I would feel the same about Loyola/aTm or Loyola/Gonzaga.  I'd only be worried if it were Loyola/Ohio State.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 27, 2018, 04:55:55 PM
Based on the feedback, whoever wins between Michigan and Loyola should walk right off the court and congratulate Nova or Kansas as National champs.
Again, you are conflating Michigan's path with Michigan.  I, again, am saying that once UNC was out of the picture, there wasn't a single a team on that side of the bracket that would have beaten Michigan.  Be it FSU and Loyola or Xavier and Virginia (if seeds had held).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 27, 2018, 05:07:23 PM
Rarely hear of Sagarin cited for college basketball these days. Maybe it’s just me. RPI, KenPom frequently are brought up. Massey to some extent too.

In those Loyola is 22,30, and 8 respectively. So Sagarin is a major outlier.

Michigan certainly hasn’t faced murderers row this year. But by most computer metrics Houston was a 4/5 seed that was underseeded. The Houston game was ugly in style, but Michigan beat a top notch team. FSU wasn’t a world class opponent, especially for the Elite Eight. But they were a unique matchup problem type team, and Michigan advanced with supreme domination on one end of the court. .7PPP on defense was lower by some margin than any FSU opponent all year.
RPI is probably the most useless metric out there.
Since you brought up the "most computer metrics," we can go to my favorite metric, Massey's composite rankings.

Houston was #20 entering the tournament, Loyola was #40.  So, based on a composite of computer rankings, Houston should have been the final 5 seed, and Loyola should have been the final 10 seed.  Instead they were a 6 and an 11, it's not like that's crazy out of whack with what the computer metrics said.

As I've said multiple times before, with solely the info that Texas A&M was going to beat UNC, I would have picked Michigan to reach the national title game.  Even if that meant going through Xavier and Virginia, instead of Florida State and Loyola.  But what facing the #38 and #40 teams (after facing #27), instead of #8, #9 and #2, like if the seeds had held, is a margin for error.  Michigan can get away with a meh performance.  Loyola is only ranked 3 spots above a Penn State team that didn't even get selected.  Getting Penn State in the Big Ten semifinals was seen as a break for Purdue, Michigan is essentially getting an equivalent team in the NATIONAL semifinals.

Like I said, breaks are breaks, and nobody should apologize for them.  You have to be both lucky and good.  I think Purdue was the Big Ten's best team this year.  But MSU had a cake conference schedule, and won the Big Ten title, so they get a banner.  Michigan had to beat #79, #20, #27, #38, #40 to reach a national championship game.  Purdue would have had to beat #152, #28, #14, #1, #7 to reach the same point.  MSU was both lucky and good.  UM was both lucky and good.  Purdue was good, but not lucky.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 05:18:49 PM
Sure, go ahead.   :)For those not following, "this" is Kris's suggestion that instead of players "fouling out" the other team gets one extra foul shot for fouls committed by that player.  His reasoning is that he hates seeing players have to sit.  

Honestly, I'm trying to work through the unintended consequences in my head.  In CBB you get five fouls in a 48 minute game and in the NBA you get six in a 60 minute game so either way it is about one foul allowed every 10 minutes of game time.  That is pretty standard and we've been accustomed to it for decades so a change would be a pretty big deal, IMHO.  
As I think about it, it seems to me that the biggest difference would be that depth would be less important, especially at the post position.  I'm not sure if that would be good or bad for the game in the long run.  

I also think that you might need to have some kind of escalator clause built into that rule (which would probably make it too complicated) because otherwise the smart play would be to just continually foul a bad FT shooter.  Ie, imagine that your team is playing against a team with a Center who is a great defender and good a finishing around the rim but he only shoots ~50% FT's.  Well, why not foul him every time he shoots from the paint?
Well, that’s a situation/strategy with the rules as they are.  I don’t think my suggestion changes that dramatically.  In fact, with a player with 5 fouls you would be less inclined to foul that guy.  You are giving him an extra opportunity to make one.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 27, 2018, 05:38:46 PM
I posted here before the tourney that Michigan's region was a *way* better deal than Detroit, and that was when I expected that winning meant having to play UNC then Xavier. I still feel that way. Nothing is guaranteed. They still had to win. But their path on paper was among the easiest in tourney history. That doesn't mean it was objectively easy. There's no such thing, really. But it could have been harder.

I posted that after the S16, too. And about how this might as well be called fair karma to counterbalance the insane path (13-5-1-3-4[-1]) they took on to get to the F4, championship game in 2013 versus Pitino's Hooker Boys.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 27, 2018, 05:53:38 PM
I like that players foul out. If a coach takes the risk of fouling as a strategy and uses his best players to do so, then so be it.
I agree with this. I think the game is best when the fewest fouls occur. And I don't think "1 extra FT" is nearly the deterrant that the bench is. Since this is all hypothetical, if you want to trade a new rule for kicking the player out for the rest of the game, it'll have to be for something much more severe than an extra chance at one point.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 27, 2018, 05:54:53 PM
MB - you know I have a tremendous amount of respect for your opinion, but you’re blinded by seedings and rankings right now as opposed to the quality of the basketball a team is playing. Loyola has played great basketball and I’m not confident Michigan can take them down.
I know I already answered this one, but @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) 's comment made me think about it a different way.  Per his favored "massey composite" Houston and Loyola should have been seeded one line higher but lets look at a much more ridiculous example.  Suppose for a minute that every team that Michigan will play on the way to the NCG was seeded three lines lower than they should have been.  Elevating each of Michigan's opponents by three lines, they will face:

That is STILL a remarkably easy path to the NCG.  By comparison, Michigan's NCG opponent Monday night will have played a #1 (each other), either a #2 (Dook by Kansas) or a #3 (TxTech by Nova), a #5 (WVU/Clemson), an #8 or #9 (Bama/Seton Hall), and a #16 (Penn/Radford).  

I get that teams can play above their seed and I get that an argument can be made that Houston and/or Loyola should have been seeded a line or two higher but in order to argue that Michigan is not getting an epic break by facing Loyola-Chicago in the national semi-final you have to argue that the committee was wrong by at least eight lines.  Nobody agrees with everything the committee does but they have never made a mistake THAT big.  

Finally, much like @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) said, this is NOT a critique of Michigan.  Michigan is not far out-of-place in the NCG and they certainly are not out-of-place in the Final Four.  Michigan is a good team and since their late-January/early-February slump they have been a great team on a phenomenal 13 (about to be 14) game winning streak including wins over MSU, PU, and tOSU.  The oddity here is that in my opinion and the opinion of the committee the best three teams that Michigan has defeated over that run are Purdue, MSU, and tOSU.  They are about to get to the NCG without having to play an opponent in the tournament any better than the fourth best team in the B1G.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 05:56:34 PM
I like that players foul out. If a coach takes the risk of fouling as a strategy and uses his best players to do so, then so be it.
My thought process wasn’t coaches fouling as an end of game strategy.  It was players and teams not being punished as much for by an official’s call.  I just watched the Carter kid from Duke play less than half the game and then foul out in OT on a bang bang block/charge call that easily could have went the other way.
I just watched one of my own team’s best players pick up a critical 4th foul on a call that had everyone scratching their head, sit down with a lead, and come back in ten minutes later with his team down by 10.
I agree that excessive fouling should be punished and makes a fast paced up and down game less enjoyable.  I just hate seeing good players sit on a bench due to foul trouble.  It’s the only sport that it’s an issue in.  I’d just like to see a different consequence to allow players to continue playing in the game.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 27, 2018, 06:03:55 PM
All that does is exacerabate the end of game situation you are complaining about.  Now you are forcing the team that is behind to foul twice as much in order to get the ball back.
I'm not convinced of that. I suspect many teams would find the FT+possession too steep a cost to even try. Others would be undeterred, I'm sure, and would hurt more for trying, which I also favor. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 06:20:18 PM
I'm not convinced of that. I suspect many teams would find the FT+possession too steep a cost to even try. Others would be undeterred, I'm sure, and would hurt more for trying, which I also favor.
“Too steep a cost to even TRY.”  The more you post about this the more it sounds like you just want the team that’s losing to quit so you don’t have to be bothered to watch it.  I mean why not give each coach a stick with a white flag on it to wave as a sign to end the game?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 27, 2018, 06:31:01 PM
Yes, it can make the end of games tedious.  But when the strategy works the pay off to me is always worth it.  Again, if this rule were implemented you, as a Michigan fan, would have been denied the Trey Burke shot against Kansas in 2013 and ensuing run and Jordan Poole shot and ensuing run this year.

Those two shots and memories aren’t worth all the foul fests you’ve had to sit through that just delayed inevitable endings?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 27, 2018, 11:21:34 PM
I like that a player is disqualified (and that's what it is, a DQ) for committing 5 personal fouls (6 in NBA).   The personal fouls are violations of certain rules.   At some point the penalties must become more harsh.  First the team suffers by providing the opponent a 1+1, and later 2 shots.   The individual is permitted a reasonable (that's arbitrary I know) number of violations before they are disqualified.   A team must take this into account while determining any number of strategies, who to play, when to play them, in addition to the 'late game' de jour of fouling in an effort to get the ball back.

I prefer enhanced degrees of personal fouls in late game situations.  Such as,  a personal foul committed in the back court in the final (minute/90 seconds) to result in two shots, and the ball.   A trailing team is provided an outsized advantage (the opportunity to shoot a three point basket) for every attempt they successfully foul the opponent, which will subsequently only receive an opportunity at two points, especially in the backcourt, in an effort to get the ball back.     The only more harsh penalty I could come up with would be, three, five to ten second run offs for fouls committed in the backcourt, but that may yield some unintended consequences in the other direction.   The leading team can of course run the risk of burning that clock while in the backcourt, but they have to advance the ball across the timeline within ten seconds.  I feel there's a neutral balance restored by providing the disincentive to manipulate the scoring chances this way.  Trailing and you want the ball? steal it, cause a turnover, make the leading team crap themselves, force a 10 second call.  Commit a foul, and pay a price.

I just know the foul fest is many times more annoying to me than the one pitch/one batter LOOGY in baseball and I don't like that either.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 28, 2018, 05:34:36 AM
Re: end of game:

What about shortening the shot clock to 24 seconds for the final 5 minutes of play (and overtime).

It's a small change, but might make the trailing team avoid fouls longer as the end approaches,  knowing they have more possessions left. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 28, 2018, 05:57:46 AM
I guess I could be persuaded to change the penalty to 2 shots and the ball after every 5th foul.  I don’t think I’d make the punishment any steeper than that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 28, 2018, 07:58:26 AM
As much a part of the problem as fouling is the "defense" of the team with the lead.  It's like teams are so scared of fouling, they just start giving up baskets late in the game, which allows the trailing team to continue to score at a quick rate, and keeps the game within reach.  I don't get this over-fear of the foul by teams leading.  If you actually play defense and run more clock, and force tougher shots, that's worth possibly fouling, compared to giving teams a quick, easy layup.  Hell, I'd rather foul than give a quick easy layup.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 28, 2018, 09:15:52 AM
Curious if anyone is watching the NIT and paying attention to the experimental rules.  Not a fan of the quarters, but I like the extended 3pt line and the shot clock resetting to 20 after an offensive rebound.  Not sure I'm seeing much with regards to the wider paint area.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 28, 2018, 04:52:30 PM
So are the Leos gonna be able to knock off the Utes in the NIT Final? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 28, 2018, 05:29:58 PM
So are the Leos gonna be able to knock off the Utes in the NIT Final?
Even though @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) doesn't think it means anything, I just want to point out that the NIT Championship will be won by a major conference team this year (unless Utah beats PSU in which case the question of whether or not the PAC is a "major conference" will be relevant).  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 28, 2018, 07:33:32 PM
I mean, it's relevant that once again it will be won by a team that wasn't even on the bubble
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 28, 2018, 08:49:27 PM

I suppose that the vast majority of College Basketball games that are played during any given season don't really "matter" in the grand scheme of things. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 28, 2018, 09:05:06 PM

There aren't very many teams that get an opportunity to finish their season with a W though. The four post-season tournament champions as well as maybe a couple of Ivy League schools that don't qualify for their 4-team Conference Tourney. That's about it. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2018, 12:00:51 AM
“Too steep a cost to even TRY.”  The more you post about this the more it sounds like you just want the team that’s losing to quit so you don’t have to be bothered to watch it.  I mean why not give each coach a stick with a white flag on it to wave as a sign to end the game?
I wasn't writing about trying to win. That was an economy of words thing. I meant for it to be obvious that "try" regarded trying to intentionally foul.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2018, 12:17:48 AM
Yes, it can make the end of games tedious.  But when the strategy works the pay off to me is always worth it.  Again, if this rule were implemented you, as a Michigan fan, would have been denied the Trey Burke shot against Kansas in 2013 and ensuing run and Jordan Poole shot and ensuing run this year.

Those two shots and memories aren’t worth all the foul fests you’ve had to sit through that just delayed inevitable endings?
I realize that. But including it clouds the point. We are talking about making basketball better to watch in general, rather than better for one of our teams, right? And besides that, even if such a rule change would theoretically eliminate the potential for one set of legendary wins, it's incomplete to not acknowledge that it would also facilitate other legendary wins to replace them.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on March 29, 2018, 10:54:53 AM
Well, there goes my dream of a good year next year .
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 29, 2018, 10:58:23 AM
Well, there goes my dream of a good year next year .
?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 29, 2018, 12:01:19 PM
?
I think he's referencing the news in the 2018-19 thread.  Jackson going pro with an agent, Cowan transferring.

With everyone coming back, I would have picked Maryland 2nd in the conference, behind UM.  Now, who knows.  If Fernando goes pro too (and he's a much better NBA prospect than Jackson) they probably miss the tourney again.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: HailHailMSP on March 29, 2018, 12:13:51 PM
Loyola has Sister Jean and Villanova has Father Robb. Michigan has Austin Hatch. The story continues to be written about this remarkable young man. Lost in the mix the last couple weeks was the B1G and NCAA granting waivers allowing Austin to suit up and walk out on Senior Day. And last week, the team making sure to save a strand on the net for him to cut down. The back story of course, is the two plane crashes that put him in a coma and decimated his family.

Here is a recent excerpt from The Athletic, written by Brendan Quinn. Abby Cole is quoted in the article. She is Austin's fiancée and an All-American Volleyball alum at Michigan.

“He does a really good job of compartmentalizing,” she says. “When he’s at Crisler, he’s a basketball player, and when he’s in lectures, he’s a student. When he’s with me, he’s a fiancé. When he’s with his family, he’s a nephew, a grandson. You know … I think he’s just … I don’t think there’s an easy answer for that.”
Cole stops and starts, then says: “With Austin, when you go through what he’s been through, there’s not a playbook, you know? No one has gone through what he’s gone through in that same way, and, well, I don't think many people would respond as well as he has.”
Cole, O’Donnell says, filled “a great emptiness” in Hatch’s life. She was prodded by that massive support system to assure her good intentions. John Beilein called U-M volleyball coach Mark Rosen to make sure she was legit. Beilein then enlisted his wife, Kathleen, to have lunch with her, not to get to know Cole, but as a secret test. She passed all of the obstacles with ease.
Hatch and Cole describe their relationship as a fairy tale. It’s the preface, though, that’s inescapably in view. Hatch still has difficult days. He once told Cole that the life-altering injuries he sustained in the second crash were secretly a blessing — the ensuing recovery was the only fathomable diversion from the emotional atom bomb of losing his father. Talk about no playbook? There was, nor is, any guide for the immediate aftermath of having a best friend, mentor and hero taken away from you. Dr. Stephen Hatch was all of those to young Austin.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 29, 2018, 04:58:45 PM
Re: end of game:

What about shortening the shot clock to 24 seconds for the final 5 minutes of play (and overtime).

It's a small change, but might make the trailing team avoid fouls longer as the end approaches,  knowing they have more possessions left.
Really? Nobody even has a comment on this idea? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: DevilFroggy on March 29, 2018, 05:09:13 PM
Really? Nobody even has a comment on this idea?
I think something like making each possession within the final 2 minutes of the game having an 18 second shot clock would be ok with me.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 29, 2018, 05:26:10 PM
Really? Nobody even has a comment on this idea?
I think a shorter shot-clock at the end of games would be a decent idea worth considering but I'm not sure it would make that big of a difference.  

Frankly, I think that teams often start fouling too late.  If you are down eight with 1:20 to go, it seems to me that a lot of times teams will play aggressive defense but not intentionally foul because they don't want to give up the easy points.  I get that, but unless you force a turnover the best case scenario is to be down eight with about 0:50 to go and the ball.  Even if you then make a three, you are still down two possessions with less than 0:50 to go and the other team has the ball.  Ie, you are eventually going to have to foul somebody.  I'd rather do it sooner than later because if you start earlier I think that you can be more selective in who you foul and you have more time to make it up.  

Bottom line, if you are down eight with about 1:20 to go your chances aren't very good and shortening the shot clock to 24 seconds or even @DevilFroggy (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=35) 's 18 seconds wouldn't make them a whole lot better.  

Maybe I just don't know enough about BB strategy so if someone can explain this, please do:
When a game is winding down I tend to do a mental calculation in my head as to whether or not the trailing team will need to foul.  When it gets to the point that the leading team could simply accept the shot-clock violation each possession and the trailing team couldn't catch up even with a quick three each possession, then I KNOW that the trailing team will have to foul eventually.  Knowing only what I know, if I were a coach, I'd start fouling right then.  You already know you are going to have to so why wait?  

My assumptions:
I figure 40 seconds per possession (30 for the leading team and 10 for the trailing team) and a maximum of a three point differential per possession (the leading team fails to score and the trailing team hits a three).  

My math, when the other team has the ball:
If Deficit/3>seconds remaining/40, foul.  

Example:
When down by eight:
Deficit / 3 = 3 (because you have to round up).  Thus, if there were less than two minutes to go (40*3 = 120 seconds = 2 minutes) I think you should foul.  

Caveat:
I wouldn't immediately foul on the in-bounds down eight with 2:00 to go.  Instead, what I would do is go into a press defense, challenge the in-bounds, then try to trap the ball or force a turnover.  I would also play VERY aggressive defense (because I see the risk of fouling as not a real risk since I have to anyway).  Then I would look to foul a bad FT shooter if possible and if all of that failed I would foul.  The thing is that "all of that" would have to be done in <10 seconds.  Ie, I would prefer a turnover but if I didn't get that I would want to foul no later than 1:50.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 29, 2018, 05:40:43 PM
Really? Nobody even has a comment on this idea?
The problem is while that fixes the fouling issue, in games where teams aren't fouling it favors certain styles over others.
Why limit the bonus to 2 FTs for 10 fouls?  Maybe at 13 fouls you go to 3 to make 2, then at 16 you go to 3, and so on?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 29, 2018, 05:52:53 PM
That's why I support the super penalty (2 plus ball) for a foul in the backcourt.   Make the D play some defense for at least some amount of time, and not give the D the constant 3:2 potential point edge.  It's bull jive to see a made bucket followed by the instant foul.   Basketball is a miserable game to watch the moment that starts happening.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 29, 2018, 05:57:21 PM
That's why I support the super penalty (2 plus ball) for a foul in the backcourt.   Make the D play some defense for at least some amount of time, and not give the D the constant 3:2 potential point edge.  It's bull jive to see a made bucket followed by the instant foul.   Basketball is a miserable game to watch the moment that starts happening.
I guess I don't mind the potential 3:2 advantage too much.  It makes a game exciting if a team is down by one or two but beyond that it only marginally matters.  Ie, if my team is down six it would take six repetitions of the 3:2 advantage to catch up.  Even if the other team only shot 50% it would still take three repetitions of the 3:1 advantage and either way my team needs to hit a bunch of three point shots.  

I get the idea of applying it for a backcourt violation though because, as you said, that would cause a press and defense to actually be played for a few seconds.  What would you do if the leading team had a bunch of timeouts left and used them after advancing the ball over the timeline to then inbound the ball back in the backcourt and use another 10 seconds of backcourt time?  Would you be ok with that?  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2018, 06:25:43 PM
My bad for not saying so. I actually love it. But it's a hard sell in terms of practicality. Of course, that is true of all of these, so I'll acknowledge it would help quench the whistle fest and maintain flow. I'm imagining an even more severe version of this -- if the play clocks were designed to consistently decay from the start to end of the 2nd half. Beginning at 30 per possession, then 29, 28, 27 .... and finishing somewhere around 8, 7, 6, 5. 
Maybe it's just me but a game with auto-5 second possessions at the end sounds ... amazing.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: mcwterps1 on March 29, 2018, 07:27:43 PM
Cowan isn't transferring .

Wiley is. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 29, 2018, 07:51:25 PM
That's why I support the super penalty (2 plus ball) for a foul in the backcourt.   Make the D play some defense for at least some amount of time, and not give the D the constant 3:2 potential point edge.  It's bull jive to see a made bucket followed by the instant foul.   Basketball is a miserable game to watch the moment that starts happening.
Ooooooh! I really like this one.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 29, 2018, 08:17:41 PM
go way back to NO shot clock
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: DevilFroggy on March 29, 2018, 08:28:45 PM
go way back to NO shot clock
Hard pass.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 29, 2018, 08:50:53 PM
you're too young to remember those games
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 29, 2018, 09:20:32 PM
Fearless also supports the elimination of the three point line, while mandating Converse high tops with knee socks, tank tops and Daisy Dukes. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 29, 2018, 09:25:14 PM
I certainly support the original Daisy Duke -  Catherine Bach
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 29, 2018, 10:03:18 PM
you're too young to remember those games
It was brutal.  You can find them on YouTube.   Memphis State (at the time) v OU Elite 8 game (maybe '85) was a crime.   Memphis couldn't hack OU's pace, so basically 4 cornered it the entire 2nd half.   
Oddly enough,  Marquette when they beat UNC for the title in '77,  they were dominating UNC, eventually UNC came way back, but then Dean Smith decided to go into the 4 corner, and Marquette overcame that and then won the FT shooting contest down the stretch for a 9 point win.      The little ###### team in Appleton did that to our High School team in the State Tournament in the late 80s,  it just stinks.   That's not a game of basketball.   You may as well play H-O-R-S-E.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 29, 2018, 10:12:49 PM
it was certainly a different game with no shot clock and no 3-point line

ball was passed to the big guy down on the low block more than once a possession

Wilt Chamberlain loved it.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MarqHusker on March 29, 2018, 10:18:11 PM
I guess I don't mind the potential 3:2 advantage too much.  It makes a game exciting if a team is down by one or two but beyond that it only marginally matters.  Ie, if my team is down six it would take six repetitions of the 3:2 advantage to catch up.  Even if the other team only shot 50% it would still take three repetitions of the 3:1 advantage and either way my team needs to hit a bunch of three point shots.  

I get the idea of applying it for a backcourt violation though because, as you said, that would cause a press and defense to actually be played for a few seconds.  What would you do if the leading team had a bunch of timeouts left and used them after advancing the ball over the timeline to then inbound the ball back in the backcourt and use another 10 seconds of backcourt time?  Would you be ok with that?  
I did consider this when thinking about this (several years ago).  I would enforce the 2 + ball only after a missed shot, or made bucket. Once the ball advanced the timeline, you could not game it by calling timeouts and then inbounding in the back court.  (We all watched that Bielema kickoff game vs PSU).   talk about not playing in the spirit of the game.  That's what the 'foul immediately' BS does to me,  it's like a quirk in a video game which is easily exploited.  #
I'm not bothered by the reality that a team that trails by 3, 5, 8, whatever in the closing minutes, has a really hard time of getting back into it.   Too bad.  The game is 40 minutes. To manipulate the game by fouling intentionally in a pure arbitrage play (3:2, 2:2, 2:1, 2:0) ends up soiling the game.    It isn't exciting or enjoyable when a team comes back from 4 down on the heels of a constant fouling strategy, as it takes 15 minutes to play that last minute.   Miserable is what this is.  (the teams we cheer for have been on both sides of this, no doubt).   I guess the last title game that IIRC this was a thing, was KU v Memphis.  It was a brutal end of game experience.  I don't care who won or lost, the final minutes sucked.  Yes, FT are part of the game, but is intentionally fouling guys 80 feet from the rim, part of the game?
# Sidebar: example: Atari 2600 game of Home Run, bean the first two or three batters, and then almost always turn a triple play on the next batter.   It's 3 card monty not baseball.  There are dozens of examples like this.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: bayareabadger on March 29, 2018, 10:43:55 PM
I honestly don't really care about the length of the end of a game. If I'm confident a team up 6 with 50 seconds to go will win, I'll turn it off. It seems somewhat agreed those uncommon comebacks aren't worth the hassle, so why not just do away with the hassle ourselves? You can come back later and check, or wake up the next day and review. Is there something at the end of the game or after the game we simply can't move onto?

In essence, it seems many of these prescriptions are geared toward convincing a team to give up faster. Above, Marq Husker phrased it this way, "It isn't exciting or enjoyable when a team comes back from 4 down on the heels of a constant fouling strategy, as it takes 15 minutes to play that last minute. Miserable is what this is." with the addendum that by the end of it, he didn't care who won. Would it be better to say, "You're down 4 with 45 seconds left, it's over"? I've had many a game where I just screamed at the TV or court to hold the ball and let me leave, but I don't know that my impatience should ever be codified in how it's played. 

Wouldn't mind if you had a bunch of timeouts expire with like 2 minutes left. Only downside would be the 5-second calls. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 30, 2018, 08:16:51 AM
For me it's not so much the game that is being played. I mean, it's annoying and all that but there's more to it.

It's the next game that I want to watch, but can't, or it's delayed by bulljive hoops (slop pool), like during the tourney. It sucks.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 30, 2018, 08:41:18 AM
For me it's not so much the game that is being played. I mean, it's annoying and all that but there's more to it.

It's the next game that I want to watch, but can't, or it's delayed by bulljive hoops (slop pool), like during the tourney. It sucks.
That's the issue to me.  Same with the number of review in the final minute.  I hate automatic reviews across all sports.  I'm fine with instant replay, but I think in all sports it should be 100% challenge based, with some limit on it or penalty (like a charged timeout) for getting it wrong.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: PSUinNC on March 30, 2018, 08:53:25 AM
I'd venture to say Penn State was playing Top 20 basketball the last 3 weeks of the year.  What I liked most about this NIT run was wins came against four P5 schools and normally good to very good AAC team.  I'm not to say that all of the sudden this means PSU would have been a Sweet 16 team had they gotten in, but it's obviously an encouraging ending to the season after losing those 3 to end the regular season. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 30, 2018, 08:57:41 AM
I'd venture to say Penn State was playing Top 20 basketball the last 3 weeks of the year.  What I liked most about this NIT run was wins came against four P5 schools and normally good to very good AAC team.  I'm not to say that all of the sudden this means PSU would have been a Sweet 16 team had they gotten in, but it's obviously an encouraging ending to the season after losing those 3 to end the regular season.
I certainly pick them to beat MSU on a neutral court right now.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 30, 2018, 09:30:27 AM
Of all the ideas regarding end of game situations I could live with a super bonus the most.  3 FT to make 2 starting on the 13th team foul. I don’t love the idea of shortening the shot clock in the final 2 minutes.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on March 30, 2018, 09:38:29 AM
The thought of no shot clock is enough to make me vomit.  I’d rather sit through a 1000 end of game foul fests than one game where a coach holds the ball for extended periods of time.

I’ve seen a couple of high school games ruined by coaches doing this.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 30, 2018, 10:03:58 AM

Personally, I'd like to see more sports implement a shot clock. Not fewer. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 30, 2018, 10:37:39 AM
I'd venture to say Penn State was playing Top 20 basketball the last 3 weeks of the year.  What I liked most about this NIT run was wins came against four P5 schools and normally good to very good AAC team.  I'm not to say that all of the sudden this means PSU would have been a Sweet 16 team had they gotten in, but it's obviously an encouraging ending to the season after losing those 3 to end the regular season.
What sucks for PSU (and, to a lesser extent Ohio State) is PSU's close (mostly) early losses:
I'm not sure how many of those PSU would have needed to win to make the big dance but all five certainly would have done it.  How much do the Nits bring back next year?  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 30, 2018, 11:26:27 AM
What sucks for PSU (and, to a lesser extent Ohio State) is PSU's close (mostly) early losses:
  • By one at home to Wisconsin on Dec 4
  • By one at home to Rider on Dec 22
  • By four at Indiana on Jan 9
  • In OT at home to Minnesota on Jan 15
  • By three at Purdue on Feb 18
I'm not sure how many of those PSU would have needed to win to make the big dance but all five certainly would have done it.  How much do the Nits bring back next year?  
Well, and the fact that 4 of those 5 losses were bad losses.  Close or not.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 30, 2018, 11:55:43 AM
The Big Ten's team in the 3 v. 3 tourney will be Nate Mason, JaeSean Tate, Vincent Edwards and Robert Johnson.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: grillrat on March 30, 2018, 02:17:31 PM
The Big Ten's team in the 3 v. 3 tourney will be Nate Mason, JaeSean Tate, Vincent Edwards and Robert Johnson.
Stupid Big Ten.  Still can't count.

(I keeeed, I keeeed  ;))
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 30, 2018, 03:28:34 PM
Well, and the fact that 4 of those 5 losses were bad losses.  Close or not.
They definitely were but the RPI (and therefore the committee) doesn't care in the least about bad "near losses".  It is purely W's vs L's so if they had won those first four games by one point each instead of losing them close, they'd have EASILY been a tournament team.  That might also have been enough to boost Ohio State up one line because those three losses to "non-tournament" Penn State would instead have been better looking losses to a fellow tournament team.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 30, 2018, 03:33:18 PM
They definitely were but the RPI (and therefore the committee) doesn't care in the least about bad "near losses".  It is purely W's vs L's so if they had won those first four games by one point each instead of losing them close, they'd have EASILY been a tournament team.  That might also have been enough to boost Ohio State up one line because those three losses to "non-tournament" Penn State would instead have been better looking losses to a fellow tournament team.  
Well, they care about the caliber of the wins/losses.  That's the whole basis of the quadrants.  It's not so much that they lost a bunch of close game, MOV doesn't really seem to matter.  But that 4 of the 5 losses were to tourney teams certainly don't help.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 30, 2018, 04:15:19 PM
Well, they care about the caliber of the wins/losses.  That's the whole basis of the quadrants.  It's not so much that they lost a bunch of close game, MOV doesn't really seem to matter.  But that 4 of the 5 losses were to tourney teams certainly don't help.
That is my point.  In the more sophisticated computer ranking systems (like Kenpom, sagrin, etc) there isn't THAT big of a difference between winning by one point or losing by one point.  In the committee's apparently still favored RPI (which also determines the rankings for the quadrants) there is a HUMONGOUS difference between winning by one point and losing by one point because RPI only cares about W's and L's.  A blow-out, 30 point win is exactly equivalent to a miraculous half-court heave to win by one point and a blow-out 30 point loss is exactly equivalent to a miraculous half-court heave to lose by one point.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 31, 2018, 06:23:53 PM
Well, this was predictable.  Hopefully at least the last two games of the tourney are watchable
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 31, 2018, 06:37:35 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZpeMkuVMAANQCD.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 31, 2018, 06:50:23 PM
These football stadiums mess up jump ahooshoo so much.  UM needs to keep feeding the block.  Might give Kansas an edge on Nova and UM
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 31, 2018, 07:39:04 PM
Stick to those side threes.  Those translate to any arena.  Better sight lines.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 31, 2018, 08:08:55 PM
The 7-0 run with Wagner/Matthews out changed everything.  Could have ended UMs season.  Instead it forced other guys to snap out of their funk, and not lean on those guys.  And they stayed hot the rest of the way.  They'll need a whole lot more from Simpson and MAAR on Monday though.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 31, 2018, 08:34:51 PM

When Michigan raided West Virginia for their revenue sports coaches, who'da thunk that B-Line would be the one to take them to two NC games? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 31, 2018, 09:16:47 PM
Yeesh, Villanova looks invincible tonight
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on March 31, 2018, 10:36:20 PM
FWIW, composite computer ranking have us #8, which is exactly where we finished the past two years, so maybe not.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on March 31, 2018, 10:56:41 PM
Hopefully Michigan got its awful shooting performance out of their system and Nova got this incredible performance out of their system. I have a feeling Nova blows the doors off, but you never know. One more Michigan win caps off a run for the ages.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on March 31, 2018, 11:17:17 PM
hopefully Michigan defends the 3 better vs Nova
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 31, 2018, 11:55:19 PM
I favor Villanova, if forced to bet, but Michigan matches up way better than KU. The Jayhawks weren't just garbage at defending 3's; they were garbage at trying. Michigan basically never double-team anyone, so they won't be so structurally incapable of defending the full perimeter as Kansas. And Z probably won't have the worst game of his life twice in a row (he's our primary engine for defense and avoiding turnovers).
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 01, 2018, 07:39:57 AM
Signed to say:Go Blue!!!

Great run so far, and I think the combination of their defense and Nova’s reaction to going from hot to cold, gets it done for the Wolverines.

Funny ass story. So my 25 year old daughter, UM grad and HUGE fan is in a serious relationship with her HS sweetheart, and Sparty grad/ Big fan. They have lots of mostly joking jabs during the year.

Well apparently he reserved plane tickets to San Antonio at the beginning of the season fully hoping to see the Spartans there.  About halfway through he got a refund , realizing that they just were not that caliber.

So, last week my daughter, who had said nothing to this point, dropped the “hey.....do you still have those San Antonio plane tickets”?

Ha ha, I guess the silence was deafening and if looks could kill.....
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 01, 2018, 11:43:11 AM
According to Bart Torvik:
Team rank since February 7:
I know picking a select time frame is often dumb, but Michigan's 14-0 stretch came from a very different team than the preceding version, so I'm posting it begrudgingly. Anyway, Michigan ranks #1 nationally over this stretch. I don't think many expected that and this includes myself. 
http://barttorvik.com/trankslice.php?year=2018&sort=&conlimit=All&begin=20180207&end=20180501&top=&quad=4&mingames=1&venue=All&type=All&mint=0&maxt=200
Michigan: #1 Defense, #12 Offense
Villanova: #15 Defense, #2 Offense
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 01, 2018, 12:29:26 PM
I was impressed with how Michigan put the clamps on Loyola last night. It was fun to watch.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 01, 2018, 02:51:40 PM
According to Bart Torvik:
Team rank since February 7:


I know picking a select time frame is often dumb, but Michigan's 14-0 stretch came from a very different team than the preceding version, so I'm posting it begrudgingly. Anyway, Michigan ranks #1 nationally over this stretch. I don't think many expected that and this includes myself.
http://barttorvik.com/trankslice.php?year=2018&sort=&conlimit=All&begin=20180207&end=20180501&top=&quad=4&mingames=1&venue=All&type=All&mint=0&maxt=200
Michigan: #1 Defense, #12 Offense
Villanova: #15 Defense, #2 Offense
Not “dumb”at all.   How is the team doing down the stretch?  “ the stretch” is what you are referring to, and what time frame could be more important?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 01, 2018, 05:07:53 PM
Oh I agree that it's relevant. My other point was to acknowledge that "beginning February 7" is a timeframe that cast Michigan, specifically, in the best light possible. And that degree of arbitrariness deserves explicit mention.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Kris61 on April 01, 2018, 08:28:18 PM
The Women’s Final Four has been awesome.  If the chick from ND that hit back to back buzzer beaters in the FF were a guy she would be a legend.  As it stands, I’m calling her the “chick from ND.”
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Temp430 on April 02, 2018, 09:12:09 AM
How did Butler, St. Johns, Providence, and Creighton ever beat Villanova? 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 02, 2018, 09:36:00 AM
The Women’s Final Four has been awesome.  If the chick from ND that hit back to back buzzer beaters in the FF were a guy she would be a legend.  As it stands, I’m calling her the “chick from ND.”
I call her "former Wisconsin TB Dare Ogunbowale's younger sister" and leave it at that.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on April 02, 2018, 09:37:41 AM
How did Butler, St. Johns, Providence, and Creighton ever beat Villanova?
Villanova's A game is better than anybody else's A game.  But nobody can bring their A game 40 times a year.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 02, 2018, 01:23:15 PM
Villanova's A game is better than anybody else's A game.  But nobody can bring their A game 40 times a year.
That is the key because the example that@Temp430 posted for Villanova could be posted for any CBB team:  
How did LSU, UNC (by 15), tOSU (by 11), UNL (by 20), and NU beat Michigan?  
Same answer as to the same question about NOVA:  Nobody brings their "A" game 40 times a year.  
I'm with @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) on this.  Nova's "A" game is beyond the capacity of Michigan (or probably anybody else).  Thus, question #1 is whether or not Nova brings their "A" game.  If not, then it is in play and just a question of how well Michigan plays.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 02, 2018, 01:24:36 PM
  • No, Michigan shouldn't "walk right off the court and congratulate the Villanova/Kansas winner.  First off, Michigan is going to win.  Loyola-Chicago has defeated a #6 by two, a #3 by one, a #7 by one, and a #9 by 16.  Like Michigan, the Ramblers have beaten the teams on the other end of the court, but also like Michigan, they have gotten very lucky.  They ducked the #1 (first ever #16 over #1 upset) and the #2 (lost to #7), and the #4 (lost to #13), and the #5 (lost to #9).  The difference between the Ramblers and the Wolverines is that while the Ramblers are about to play the best opponent they have ever seen, the Wolverines are about to play their easiest opponent since Montana in the first round.  After Michigan dispenses with the Ramblers they will get either Nova or Kansas in the NCG.  I do believe that both the Wildcats and Jayhawks are better than the Wolverines but it isn't by anywhere near the margin by which all three of them are better than the Ramblers.  Ie, I expect the Nova/Kansas winner to be favored over the Wolverines in the CG but I do not expect the Wildcats or Jayhawks to be a prohibitive favorite.  
According to my phone Nova is a 7.5 point favorite so I'm going to say "told you so" to all of this post and hopefully enjoy a good game tonight.  
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on April 02, 2018, 01:50:50 PM
Nova is really good, but UM should have some defensive success.  They are comfortable guarding one on one without a lot of help, which should bog down Nova some and keep them from bombing away from three.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on April 02, 2018, 03:32:56 PM
GO BLUE!!!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 02, 2018, 06:43:35 PM
For my kid, and for all my U of M buds on here, I wore my navy suit/maize tie to work today, and now sitting on my back patio here in Florida in maize tee shirt with blue shorts.

GO BLUE!     GO BLUE!     GO BLUE!

And for the record I am picking the Wolverines to bring the trophy home.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 02, 2018, 06:53:31 PM
I'm bullish on Michigan this year. I think they have the right makeup (toughness, desire, coaching, experience) to go pretty far in this thing.


Even a blind dog can find a bone.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on April 02, 2018, 06:56:57 PM
how's the blind dog's sniffer tonight?

gonna take down mighty Nova?
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MrNubbz on April 02, 2018, 07:06:11 PM
For my kid, and for all my U of M buds on here, I wore my navy suit/maize tie to work today, and now sitting on my back patio here in Florida in maize tee shirt with blue shorts.

GO BLUE!     GO BLUE!     GO BLUE!
While I'll be pulling for the Wolverines my conference affiliation & enthusiasm certainly has its limits.If I was to do THAT the Whoopee Wagon  would be fetched and the nice young men in their clean white shirts would be tending to me
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 02, 2018, 07:08:30 PM
how's the blind dog's sniffer tonight?

gonna take down mighty Nova?
I think their man to man defense can throw a wrinkle in Nova's offense. It's key that the M defenders keep a hand in the face of every Nova player tonight. Can't allow good looks from 3 point range.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on April 02, 2018, 07:10:12 PM
even w/o a hand in their face, I don't think they can shoot that well two games in a row
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on April 02, 2018, 07:11:04 PM
While I'll be pulling for the Wolverines my conference affiliation & enthusiasm certainly has its limits.If I was to do THAT the Whoopee Wagon  would be fetched and the nice young men in their clean white shirts would be tending to me
I feel a little dirty for typing in Big Blue font, but I'm not crazy!
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on April 02, 2018, 08:02:45 PM
My otherwise busted bracket does have Villanova winning it all. 

(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.sbnation.com%2Fimported_assets%2F1668993%2Fu7QWcZD.png&hash=cd77bdcdd85bb3e1e5bc9b50aa02e071)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on April 02, 2018, 08:13:18 PM
I think their man to man defense can throw a wrinkle in Nova's offense. It's key that the M defenders keep a hand in the face of every Nova player tonight. Can't allow good looks from 3 point range.
taking this as a yes
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on April 02, 2018, 09:31:56 PM
Both teams getting open looks from deep.  Yet the only one that has gone in was Wagner's, which was probably the worst look of them all.  Funny game sometimes.

UM should have given the foul last possession.  Wagner was gassed, and they had no team fouls 6 minutes in.  Probably could have afforded it over giving up an easy layup.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on April 02, 2018, 10:23:50 PM
Divincenzo torched Michigan in that first half, where otherwise Michigan defended well. But they are struggling to shoot the ball.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: MaximumSam on April 02, 2018, 11:06:49 PM
DiVincenzo...my goodness
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: SuperMario on April 02, 2018, 11:07:42 PM
Have to tip you cap to this kid. Game of a lifetime at the right time. Certainly talented and has the ability, but he’s also having a special night. Absolutely incredible performance.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 02, 2018, 11:30:32 PM
Great run by the Wolverines to get there, but Nova was simply too much. The way Nova played tonight I don't think it would have made any difference who they played.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on April 03, 2018, 12:23:11 AM
You slap a Duke or a UNC on Villanova and they are being talked about among the all time greats.  This year the best team was also the national championship, and that is always good.  I think you have to go back to 2009 UNC to find a champ even in the discussion with this Villanova team.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 03, 2018, 07:01:07 AM
DiVincenzo...my goodness
No kidding. 6th man my ass. That kid was amazing.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: TyphonInc on April 03, 2018, 08:11:26 AM
I tried to stay up for this game, but didn't make past the 1st half. Looks like I didn't miss anything in the 2nd.

Great season for That Team Up North.
And Congrats to Villinova.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 03, 2018, 10:53:36 AM
Wow. Villanova is incredible. Michigan was shooting well early but rapid foul trouble sent DR to the bench and seemed to immediately end their flow on D, too, but especially O. And bye went the lead. I'm not sure it would have mattered though when a team is hitting contested 3s like that. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 03, 2018, 01:01:20 PM
I was off the grid more or less last week, so apologies if some already posted this.

Michael Finke Jr. and TeJon Lucas are joining Mark Smith in transferring from Illinois.

The 2018 class stands as of a few minutes ago:

Ayo Dosunmu, Alan Griffin, Tevian Jones, George Bezhanishvili and Samba Kane

2 open scholarships right now.

Illini that remain:

Trent Frazier, Aaron Jordan, Kipper Nichols, Greg Ebo, DaMonte Williams and Matic Vesel


Yeah, this stuff is now in the 18/19 thread. Some of us were in that thread before others. WE welcomed Michigan last night.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Entropy on April 03, 2018, 01:10:32 PM
My otherwise busted bracket does have Villanova winning it all.

(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.sbnation.com%2Fimported_assets%2F1668993%2Fu7QWcZD.png&hash=cd77bdcdd85bb3e1e5bc9b50aa02e071)
I had nova winning it all as well... So did others.   However, they did better in the early rounds.   Nothing like finishing slightly above the mean while choosing the winner.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: NickSmith4Three on April 03, 2018, 01:12:54 PM
Yeah, this stuff is now in the 18/19 thread. Some of us were in that thread before others. WE welcomed Michigan last night.
I guess I should have scrolled down a few...oops
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: ELA on April 04, 2018, 11:52:37 AM
Weird stat about Michigan and Final Fours.  Their first ever (1964) they lost.  Since then, they have made seven trips.  They are 7-0 in Final 4 games, and 1-6 in National Championship games.

So for picking purposes, if you put Michigan in your Final 4, you'd better pick them to win that game, and no more.  Picking a FF loss, or an NC win is historically a bad bet.
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on May 25, 2018, 08:17:43 PM
James Palmer Jr. Withdraws from NBA Draft, Will Return to Nebraska
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: FearlessF on May 27, 2018, 05:07:51 PM
Add another piece to Nebraska’s roster for next season. 

Senior Isaac Copeland will return to Nebraska for his senior season, he announced Sunday morning. 

"Excited to announce I'll be returning to Nebraska for my senior season," Copeland wrote on Twitter. 
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on June 19, 2018, 02:32:22 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgEo-OYX0AASHYQ.jpg)
Title: Re: ~2017-18 Big Ten Basketball Thread~
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on June 19, 2018, 04:44:07 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgEo-OYX0AASHYQ.jpg)
I think this belongs in the 2018-2019 thread (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?topic=3210.0).