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Topic: Rankings ... ugh

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2786 on: July 22, 2024, 01:08:47 PM »

That's a lot of problems per 100 vehicles...

FearlessF

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2787 on: July 22, 2024, 01:27:55 PM »
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2789 on: July 24, 2024, 08:40:41 AM »
So, problems per 100 vehicles ranges from a bit over 1 to around 3.  So, worst case, 3% of the cars have some issue in 90 days?

They are under warranty.  If something is wonky, you take it in and they fix it.  Not great, but it happens rarely.  I'm much more interested in maintenance costs over 100,000 miles.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2790 on: July 24, 2024, 09:24:52 AM »
So, problems per 100 vehicles ranges from a bit over 1 to around 3.  So, worst case, 3% of the cars have some issue in 90 days?

They are under warranty.  If something is wonky, you take it in and they fix it.  Not great, but it happens rarely.  I'm much more interested in maintenance costs over 100,000 miles.
Well, one might think there is a correlation between 90-day reliability and 100K mile reliability. And that correlation stems from the same root cause (design & build quality). One may not be able to easily prove this, but it's a reasonable thing to think. 

The problem, of course, is that statistical data on large data sets of cars up to 100K miles is hard to come by, if it's all self-reported survey findings. There's no national objective database that we can all refer to and just look at the data. And there are confounding variables (how well maintained and cared for those cars are generally) that could spoil the data. 

So we're stuck making inferences about future reliability based upon more limited data. 

FearlessF

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2791 on: July 24, 2024, 09:33:41 AM »
mopars suck
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2792 on: July 24, 2024, 09:41:56 AM »
I personally don't concern myself with these JD Power figures unless some make is WAY off the beam.  If a make has 2 per 100, I don't view that as different from 1 per hundred.  And I THINK long term reliability and low maintenance hinges mostly on other factors.

Our little Hyundai is SO "computerized" I fully expect various widgets to fail along the way.  Whether I have them fixed is another story.

For example, I'm sitting in my office and I can start the dang thing from here, and turn on the AC, and adjust the AC.  I can have it back itself out of a tight parking spot, remotely.  I don't understand how the drive train works, and I've looked for explanations.  It operates seamlessly (for now).  I have to listen hard to hear when the engine cuts on or off.  The small battery it has for oomph may degrade and wear down in time, so I'd lose some acceleration.  Would I replace it then?  Probably not.

utee94

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2793 on: July 24, 2024, 09:48:57 AM »
mopars suck
I've now owned 4 MOPAR/Chrysler/Jeep, 2 Chevys, and 3 Fords.  All brands pretty much the same with respect to quality and reliability.  

The 80s models were all worse than the 90s-thru-present models, but across brands the 80s models were the same.

Best by far I've ever owned as far as quality and reliability was the 1992 Honda, worst by far I've ever owned was the 2003 Toyota.


Cincydawg

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2794 on: July 24, 2024, 09:57:03 AM »
This is another situation where consumers make choices often confidently based on very small statistical base.  I know Utee doesn't think Toyota is a lousy make, or Honda is great, he likely thinks they both make solid cars.  But some folks with his experience would exclaim that Toyota makes junk, and they only buy Hondas.

Our GTI never had any problems until the 33,000 mile mark when the "dealer" came up with $3 K in maintenance items.  I was pretty miffed.

utee94

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2795 on: July 24, 2024, 10:03:37 AM »
What data exists, shows Toyota as being a highly reliable car.  

Given my experience with both their engineering and their dealer network, I find it really hard to believe.  I've never owned a worse, more frustrating piece of shit product, with a worse, more inept and predatory product support team, in ANY consumer product category, not just automobiles, in my entire life.   


Cincydawg

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2796 on: July 24, 2024, 10:09:21 AM »
Interesting.  I've never owned a Toyota.  I did have a Honda that my kid's friend ruined.  Makes I've owned:

Chevy - mostly, two Novas and my ex's Chevette, which was a crap car indeed
Cadillac - 3
Ford - a Pinto very briefly, I sold it for a $50 profit back when
Dodge - minivan
Buick - minivan

Honda CR-V bought well used
VW
Hyundai


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2797 on: July 24, 2024, 10:15:42 AM »
I personally don't concern myself with these JD Power figures unless some make is WAY off the beam.  If a make has 2 per 100, I don't view that as different from 1 per hundred.  And I THINK long term reliability and low maintenance hinges mostly on other factors.

Our little Hyundai is SO "computerized" I fully expect various widgets to fail along the way.  Whether I have them fixed is another story.

For example, I'm sitting in my office and I can start the dang thing from here, and turn on the AC, and adjust the AC.  I can have it back itself out of a tight parking spot, remotely.  I don't understand how the drive train works, and I've looked for explanations.  It operates seamlessly (for now).  I have to listen hard to hear when the engine cuts on or off.  The small battery it has for oomph may degrade and wear down in time, so I'd lose some acceleration.  Would I replace it then?  Probably not.
I do think that modern cars have gotten so complex that although many of the mechanical reliability factors are largely better than past vehicles, there is now SO much more that can possibly go wrong. Right now my Flex gives me a notification every time I start it that the blind spot warning system (for lane changes) and the cross traffic warning system (for when you're in reverse) aren't working. I might at some point look into fixing it. Heck, I might jack the car up and see if a connector has come dislodged between the rear bumper where the sensors are located and whatever it's supposed to plug into. It's quite possible that when the bumper was replaced after I got rear-ended, the connector wasn't put together as securely as necessary and wiggled free over time. But it's hardly been something I've worried about.  

That said, I've kind of always looked at cars along these lines:

  • American: Cheaper to acquire, breaks moderately frequently, cheap to fix. 
  • Japanese: A little more expensive to acquire, breaks rarely, cheap to fix. 
  • Euro: Expensive to acquire, breaks frequently, expensive to fix. 


As you can imagine, I generally assume there's a trade-off between American and Japanese cars whether I pay up front or pay later. And with this bias, I stay the HELL away from Euro. Especially as my goal for any vehicle is to hold it >10 years, so I know that much of what I'll have to deal with is not covered by warranty. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2798 on: July 24, 2024, 10:24:23 AM »
My GTI was assembled in Mexico.  A lot of VWs are made in Chattanooga.  Etc. etc.

Where they are designed is clearly a factor along with where parts are made.

I'm still annoyed with that $3 K maintenance charge at 33 K miles, even knowing most of it was bogus.

I sometimes wonder if a "basic car" would sell these days, probably not.  And a lot of crap is mandated anyway.

FearlessF

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #2799 on: July 24, 2024, 06:32:00 PM »
so, does buying an American vehicle keep more of my money in the US?

or does a Toyota assembled in America retain about the same percentage?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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