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Topic: Rankings ... ugh

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utee94

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1050 on: September 21, 2023, 10:04:42 AM »
What's an example of an entirely objective matter about which one can argue?
Oh, I suppose there are some areas of politics, or more specifically public policy, where we could do this.

For example, if we're talking about a semi-socialistic healthcare program, and we both agree on objective portions of the plan-- we know the costs, who's paying for it, and what the expected benefits are-- but we DON'T agree on the ideals behind the policy, then we could have an objective argument about it.  If I'm a small-government libertarian and you're a more socialistic democrat, then we can objectively agree on the facts of the program, and still disagree on whether or not it's an appropriate use of resources.

Cincydawg

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1051 on: September 21, 2023, 10:08:44 AM »
So, we don't argue about the objective parts, just the subjective and opinion based parts.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1052 on: September 21, 2023, 10:19:54 AM »
What's an example of an entirely objective matter about which one can argue?
The existence of the supernatural?

It's perfect, because it seems to be unknowable, which means that although it's perfectly objective (it exists or it doesn't) we can argue it forever. 

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1053 on: September 21, 2023, 10:30:39 AM »
What's an example of an entirely objective matter about which one can argue?

History, I suppose.


The events have been recorded in various sources throughout the years, and the writings are pretty much objectively understood and agreed upon, but then people may disagree about the veracity of the authors, or more likely, "what it means."  Philosophy of history, I guess.  

Many STEM fields are like that too.  Every physicist knows the latest findings in QM, they "agree" on the experiments, results, and facts.  There's also like 9 most "popular" takes on what the heck it means.  

Or medical stuff.  Lab results, imaging results, symptoms, etc., are all objective.  Ask 5 different doctors what's going on and you get 5 different opinions.  



MikeDeTiger

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1054 on: September 21, 2023, 10:33:01 AM »
The existence of the supernatural?

It's perfect, because it seems to be unknowable, which means that although it's perfectly objective (it exists or it doesn't) we can argue it forever.

It's my favorite subject. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1055 on: September 21, 2023, 10:46:04 AM »
Those items have objective aspects about which no one argues.  They do argue about interpretation, "opinion", which is subjective.

I suppose it's semantics.


utee94

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1056 on: September 21, 2023, 10:56:05 AM »
Those items have objective aspects about which no one argues.  They do argue about interpretation, "opinion", which is subjective.

I suppose it's semantics.



I could argue that a body of water is blue-green.  You could disagree and say it's greenish-blue.  It is objectively whatever color it is, based on its physical characteristics, the ground beneath it, the depth of the water, the time of day, the amount and angle of light hitting it, etc.

But we could still argue about the color, and that argument would still be dumb.

Cincydawg

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1057 on: September 21, 2023, 11:04:38 AM »
Human perceptions are subjective, depending on those factors.  And water generally is colorless unless it contains a lot of impurities.

I could measure objectively the absorbance spectrum of said body of water, that would be substantive.    I think we're arguimg about subjective matters.


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1058 on: September 21, 2023, 11:35:04 AM »
It's my favorite subject.
It's a quick study.  Here is the entirety of falsifiable evidence of the supernatural:  ______.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1059 on: September 21, 2023, 11:39:40 AM »
Not sure I get the point of arguing about something that's objectively not objective. 
When does it become an argument, though?
1 - I share list X.
2 - I comment on it, simply sharing my opinion.
3 - Another person does the same, but with a different opinion.
4 - I provide reasons for my opinion.
5 - They do the same.

I wouldn't call it an argument until a #6 where maybe I provide reasons their opinion is wrong.  Before then, it's just a conversation.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1060 on: September 21, 2023, 11:45:25 AM »
It's a quick study.  Here is the entirety of falsifiable evidence of the supernatural:  ______.

I'm well aware of your ignorance on the topic. 

but srsly, it's a good example of what we're talking about.  The evidence is just the evidence.  What it means is going to depend on how you view many different things.  Different people reasonably arrive at either conclusion, although obviously I think the evidence strongly leans in favor of one over the other.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1061 on: September 21, 2023, 11:50:21 AM »
What evidence?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1062 on: September 21, 2023, 01:16:26 PM »
What evidence?

That's a broad question, so I'd probably narrow it down to categories.  There's literally dozens, but there are some popular ones that have been debated for decades and even centuries now.  Start with what's commonly known as the cosmological argument; the beginning of the universe.  This wasn't always heavily corroborated by the latest scientific findings (think: Einstein, who is relatively recent, and initially preferred a static model of the universe),  but the universe having an absolute beginning is widely accepted now.  There's a ton of evidence for that, from both the scientific and philosophy communities.  But what does it mean?  There's the rub.  Something not in or part of the universe caused the universe to come into being, but what?  "Something not in or part of the universe" would be one working definition of "supernatural" so I'd argue that it doesn't really matter which view you side with, it technically is "supernatural."  Both sides are forced to extrapolate a list of qualities that must necessarily belong to such a cause, but they don't agree on all of them, or who or what it is.  One example is Stephen Hawking's view later in his life, that gravity caused the universe to come into being.  If you wade through the details of his explanation, what he actually does is assign to gravity nearly all the qualities a religious person would assign to a deity, excepting personhood.  So there's a lot of agreement on the evidence, but different conclusions drawn.  This is a 50,000 ft. overview....I'm skipping a literal ton here, like I said, it's one of my favorite topics.

A second popular argument is the teleological argument, or what could be called the design argument.  The evidence not in dispute is an ever-growing, very long list of characteristics about the universe that are extraordinarily fine-tined for there to be a universe at all, and in particular one that can support life.  The meaning, again, is in dispute.  Briefly, an atheistic view tends to argue one of two things, either it's blind chance that everything is fine-tuned the way that it is, or they appeal to a multiverse theory, stating that this universe is one of many, possibly an infinite number, and so one of them somewhere was bound to have these characteristics.  The theist view will of course argue for a grand designer, so to speak.  But they're arguing from the same evidence.

A third popular one is the moral argument.  This one is different in a couple of ways.  First, it's nearly strictly philosophical as it doesn't appeal to science like the first two.  Second, the evidence sort of is and isn't in dispute.  What I mean by that is the "evidence" in this case is an objective morality, something that transcends our opinions and is true whether one believes it or not, and atheistic views often deny that while theistic views tend to (not always) affirm it.  Where it gets tricky is that when atheist philosophers are really pressed on it, they often do ultimately want to affirm objective morality, meaning they see some things as actually, truly wrong, which are not just matters of opinion, evolution, or societal norms.  But they either fail to see the contradiction, or they admit they have a problem and that the problem may not be intractable and shouldn't be given up on.  Or put another way, theists frequently argue that there is an objective morality to our existence and that the source is supernatural, whereas atheists frequently argue either there is no objective morality, or that there is, and try to advocate for alternative explanations outside of something supernatural (though they admirably admit shortcomings here, which is why I say their position is sometimes that while they have a problem, they shouldn't give up on it).  So it's a little disingenuous to say there's evidence not in dispute in that realm.  Nevertheless, there is evidence either side produces for why there is or isn't objective morality, and then of course the different views drawn from either of those positions.  

Those are just the most popular 3 areas, in my opinion, where there's evidence--generally agreed upon--but differing conclusions.  There are a ton of other areas of arguments with the same thing.....some evidence from some discipline which theists and atheists try to explain in different ways.  Alvin Plantinga, formerly of Notre Dame, successfully defended over two dozen arguments in his career, many of which get extremely esoteric and beyond what the average layman can follow.  He's just one of many, and of course there are atheistic proponents such as Daniel Dennett and many others, who attempt to tackle the same subjects, the same evidence as it were, and show that atheism more reasonably explains it.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Rankings ... ugh
« Reply #1063 on: September 21, 2023, 01:47:52 PM »
Of course, in the Christian religion, they're going to advocate for the resurrection of Jesus, the focal point of the religion.  This qualifies, I think, as a claim to the supernatural, because dead things don't come back to life naturally.  

The evidence in that case is wide and varied, but there is what some have come to call the minimal facts of this matter, those being facts of history that every historian agrees on.  When I say "every," I mean as far as I have ever come across, there's not a single serious historian that denies one of these, no matter their religious worldview.....and many of them, it should be noted, are not religious and would deny anything supernatural as ardently as anyone.  The reason why they coherently affirm these is because there is nothing inherently supernatural about them.  

First, that a first century rabbi from the Nazareth region of Judea named Jesus (I mean....that wasn't his name, but that's how it's been transliterated by this point) was crucified by Roman soldiers.  Second, his body was buried by a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin court, a guy named Joseph of Arimethea (again, his name wasn't actually Joseph).  Third, that the tomb was discovered empty a couple of days after his burial.  Fourth, that his followers suddenly and sincerely came to believe their rabbi had come back to life.  

There's a lot more historical facts surrounding the resurrection story that have wide agreement, but these are just the universally agreed-upon ones.  Note again, nothing about any of them means anything supernatural actually happened.  To that point, different theories--about 7 that I know of( though I can't list them all from memory)--have been put forward in an effort to best explain those 4 facts.  Some of them are the conspiracy theory, i.e., the disciples lied and made the whole thing up...the swoon theory, i.e., Jesus never actually died, the Romans believed him to be dead but failed to complete the job, and later he was able to get up and walk around, etc.....the hallucination theory, i.e., his followers sincerely believed they saw their dead rabbi, but hallucinated the whole thing....the legendary theory, i.e., the disciples made no such claims about a resurrected messiah and these claims were added later in history, or, someone invented a legend about it.  There's a few more I don't remember.  And of course finally there would be the resurrection theory, which is what Christians believe.  

In this case the 4 minimal facts would be the evidence.  Explaining that evidence is a different matter, and obviously people draw different conclusions from it.  

 

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