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Topic: OT - Weird History

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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5068 on: June 09, 2025, 01:39:57 PM »
the 5.25" were more floppy

"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5069 on: June 09, 2025, 01:56:04 PM »
And the 8" floppier still.



And it's not all that surprising that the Boeing aircraft still use such antiquates systems.  Technologies used in high risk platforms need to be extremely stable.  Introducing new architectures, and therefore the potential for new bugs, is not really acceptable.  It's an extremely lengthy and costly process, to upgrade.

The final space shuttle missions were still flying with effectively the same computer architectures integrated into the original space shuttles developed back in the 70s/80s.  Specifically, onboard RAM of the computer system was 64K, at a time when 2G-4G of RAM was common in personal computers.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2025, 02:05:45 PM by utee94 »

Gigem

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5070 on: June 09, 2025, 03:29:00 PM »
Honestly, don't you just long for the "good 'ol days" when everything just worked?  No fucking with settings, no restarting, no calling tech support.  TV's, car radio's, phone speakers, old school computers.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5071 on: June 09, 2025, 03:33:37 PM »
Could you possibly be a bigger suck up/name dropping dweeb - US? In your land of make believe you've convinced yourself everyone's backing your play? Mentioning other posters and lumping them together with yourself just smacks of desperation. Who - clearly and obviously neither quoted your posts, hit the likes button or even followed up with an atta boy. So you are clearly and obviously full of shit. Now you may get back to your regularly scheduled hiney smooching
This is NOT an argument between @MrNubbz and @medinabuckeye1 , it is an argument between @MrNubbz and reality with @SFBadger96 , @847badgerfan , @Cincydawg , and @medinabuckeye1 pointing out reality to refute Nubbz lunatic rantings.  

Since our village idiot seems to have immediately forgotten that one of his many false statements was called out by multiple posters, a little review is in order:

In response to a post by @Cincydawg about the British Empire, @MrNubbz said:
It was also  a stack of cards, Unlike a Republic that turned to free enterprise and manufactured their goods the British mostly invaded others and took their shyt.Their fauntleroys officers mostly because they had some sort of connections to aristocrats got their Tommies filleted in 2 WWs
I took this drivel down point by point, pointing out that, contra "stack of cards":
Britain's empire referred to above as a "stack of cards" was the greatest the world has ever seen and stood more-or-less intact for centuries. 

@MrNubbz continuing failure to even so much as reply to the fact that the Empire he referred to as a "stack of cards" lasted more or less intact for centuries gives away that he knows he was wrong there, he just isn't man enough to admit it.  

Then I pointed out that contra "invaded others and took their shyt(sic):
Contra "invading others and taking things" every former British possession is VASTLY better off than they would be had they never been colonized or had they been colonized by another power.  The British lost their empire not because someone took it but because they couldn't afford to maintain it.  Ie, it was absolutely NOT a profitable theft operation as you suggest.  Instead the British spent a lot of money improving the areas they controlled and eventually simply couldn't afford such spending. 

Once again, @MrNubbz continuing failure to even so much as address these points gives away the fact that he knows he was wrong here as well and, once again, isn't man enough to admit it.  

Then I pointed out that contra the implication that the British Army was incompetent in both World Wars in @MrNubbz statement that "their fauntleroys officers mostly because they had some sort of connections to aristocrats got their Tommies filleted in 2 WW's":  
I have no doubt that the British Army had some incompetent officers who got their positions based upon who they knew rather than what they knew and their ability to command in combat but that is hardly a uniquely British phenomenon, it happens in EVERY army.  The British Army acquitted itself quite well in both WWI and WWII.  They were clearly and obviously superior man-for-man to the every army involved in WWI with the exception of the Germans and in WWII while they ultimately couldn't match the volume of both men and material that the US and the USSR supplied they stood alone against the Germans for nearly a year from the fall of France until Barbarossa, beat the Germans in the skies over their island, and as late as 81 years ago tomorrow the British took three of the five beaches in Normandy.  American forces took two.  If their army had been as bad as you think it was, D-Day would not have gone well considering that they handled the lions share of it. 

They also kicked Rommell's ass in North Africa and although we Americans eventually showed up and helped finish that off the British Army was so vastly superior to the American Army early in the campaign that the British internally referred to the Americans as "our Italians" referencing the VAST difference in fighting quality between the Germans and their Italian allies.  Unlike the Italians, the Americans eventually overcame their early-war deficiencies but that does not negate the fact that in 1942 a British army unit regardless of size (squad, company, division, whatever) was VASTLY superior to a comparably sized American army unit. 
That was quickly supported by @847badgerfan :
One of my best friends is a Brit "Brummy" (his wife's word - she's Welsh) from the wrong side of the track in Birmingham. His father served in WWII and that is a tremendous source of pride for him.

The stories are telling. Those Brits were a fierce lot and a major force to be reckoned with. They don't quit. And yes, we were their "Italians" for the first couple of years.
Then it was supported by @SFBadger96 :
There is no legitimate argument: the U.S. Army was underequipped, undertrained, and undersized at the beginning of WWII. It addressed all of those things relatively quickly, but per the comment above about the 106th Division in Belgium, the U.S. did not perform very well in Africa when it first arrived. It learned, adapted, and became a more effective fighting force. Experience is a great teacher.
 @MrNubbz pathetic attempt at a reply was to point out British withdrawals and failures in 1940, 1941, and 1942.  Note that he has ALREADY been told in no uncertain terms by his betters @847badgerfan , @SFBadger96 , and I that the US Army of 1942 was not yet the equal of the British Army and yet he somehow thinks that British failures in that timeframe somehow prove something, I guess?  LoL.  

What is hilarious is that @MrNubbz doesn't even realize that he should be embarrassed.  It is pathetic but hilarious.  

I've realized that @MrNubbz is unreachable so the purpose of this post isn't to attempt to convince our village idiot it is simply as a waring to the posters who don't know history.  Just know that @MrNubbz posts involving Britain in general and Churchill specifically are almost always wrong.  When his factual misstatements are pointed out, unfortunately he isn't man enough to admit to his mistakes so he just goes off on unrelated tangents ranting like a lunatic.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5072 on: June 09, 2025, 03:35:59 PM »
There is one other claim that needs to be addressed not because the erroneous poster will learn anything but because the statement has been made repeatedly and it is a flat out slander.  

@MrNubbz started out claiming that the British Blockade of Germany in WWI killed "3/4 of Germans".  @Cincydawg called him out on this nonsense so he backed it down to this allegation which he has made more-or-less in this form multiple times:

The Crown had the Royal Navy in WWI blockading Germany's Northen ports causing 3/4 of a million German citizens to starve to death. That was a clear violation of not only international law but a callous disregard for human rights and in fact a war crime.

This is false and quite frankly slander.  

I want to first address @MrNubbz unqualified statement that this is a clear violation of international law and a war crime.  It isn't that simple.  The victorious allies at Nuremberg tried to put Donitz in the dock for Germany's attempted blockade of Britain.  His defense team called Admiral Charles Lockwood of the USN.  Upon questioning, Lockwood was compelled to admit that the the US Pacific Submarine fleet which he commanded during WWII successfully did to Japan exactly what Germany unsuccessfully attempted to do to Britain.  Donitz was found guilty of some counts but not for waging unrestricted submarine warfare basically on the grounds that everyone did it.  Ie, the Nuremberg International War Crimes Tribunal did NOT find blockades to be criminal.  

The second part could be viewed as a clarification if @MrNubbz didn't have a history of making false statements and refusing to own up to them.  

The clear implication of his statement is that the RN's blockade of Germany in WWI was a uniquely British atrocity.  Nothing could be further from the truth and presenting this as he did, without that context would be misleading if done in error.  In @MrNubbz ' case it is flat out dishonest.  

Cutting off supplies to your enemies in an effort to starve them into submission has been a military tactic at least since the Greeks laid siege to Troy.  In the intervening three-and-a-half millennia it has been practiced by every military that has been in a position to benefit from it.  Just to mention a few:

  • The US Army did it to the Confederate Soldiers and Civilians at Vicksburg.  
  • The allies (Britain, France, Russia, and later Italy and the US) did it to Germany in WWI.  
  • Germany attempted to do it to Britain in both WW's.  
  • Germany did it to every pocket of the USSR that they surrounded when they were advancing on the Eastern Front.  
  • The Soviets did it to every pocket of Germany that they surrounded when they were advancing on the Eastern Front.  
  • The USN successfully did it to the Japanese held islands that they were able to cut-off in WWII.  
  • The USN successfully did it to the Japanese home islands in WWII.  

It isn't pretty and you can certainly argue that it is immoral but the implication that it is uniquely British is rubbish.  The British only stand out in that, as the owners of the World's most powerful fleet for several centuries up until surpassed by the USN sometime in late 1943 or early 1944, they were more successful at it than most others.  

So the lines are clear.  On one side you have the Nuremberg International War Crimes Tribunal and 3,500 years of military history and on the other side there is this message board's villiage idiot.  

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5073 on: June 09, 2025, 03:36:24 PM »
Honestly, don't you just long for the "good 'ol days" when everything just worked?  No fucking with settings, no restarting, no calling tech support.  TV's, car radio's, phone speakers, old school computers. 
yes

I don't want to be the grumpy old man
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5074 on: June 09, 2025, 04:05:27 PM »
Honestly, don't you just long for the "good 'ol days" when everything just worked?  No fucking with settings, no restarting, no calling tech support.  TV's, car radio's, phone speakers, old school computers. 

I find that the stuff you listed pretty much just works, in my experience.  I don't have problems with TV's, radios, speakers, computers, etc.  

Now, to reignite an old argument where brad tried to gaslight me, I do miss the days when appliances just worked (and kept working, and kept working, and kept working....)

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5075 on: June 09, 2025, 04:05:58 PM »
yes

I don't want to be the grumpy old man

Why not?  I'm looking forward to it.  I'm already getting a jump start by being a grumpy middle-aged man.  

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5076 on: June 09, 2025, 04:27:49 PM »
I've found that it's not as much fun as I was expecting
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5077 on: June 09, 2025, 04:30:29 PM »
And it's not all that surprising that the Boeing aircraft still use such antiquates systems.  Technologies used in high risk platforms need to be extremely stable.  Introducing new architectures, and therefore the potential for new bugs, is not really acceptable.  It's an extremely lengthy and costly process, to upgrade.
Yep. And for something highly regulated like aircraft (FAA), medical devices (FDA), casino gaming (Nevada Gaming Commission) etc, that extremely lengthy and costly process to upgrade is on top of an extremely lengthy and costly process to design and deploy at all. 

Most of the computing industry is NOT set up around long life cycle product support. They want to sell the latest and greatest, because that's what consumers want. And because consumers want the latest and greatest, they don't have to keep older products alive once the latest and greatest have been released. 

Which means that the companies specializing in those sorts of markets have a completely different business model (I used to work for one). It's a wholly different way of designing and maintaining products when it's a computer that you have to sell the same thing 8 years from now as you do today because the cost of requalifying even a trivial component to upgrade to something new is prohibitive. 

utee94

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5078 on: June 09, 2025, 04:36:55 PM »
Yep. And for something highly regulated like aircraft (FAA), medical devices (FDA), casino gaming (Nevada Gaming Commission) etc, that extremely lengthy and costly process to upgrade is on top of an extremely lengthy and costly process to design and deploy at all.

Most of the computing industry is NOT set up around long life cycle product support. They want to sell the latest and greatest, because that's what consumers want. And because consumers want the latest and greatest, they don't have to keep older products alive once the latest and greatest have been released.

Which means that the companies specializing in those sorts of markets have a completely different business model (I used to work for one). It's a wholly different way of designing and maintaining products when it's a computer that you have to sell the same thing 8 years from now as you do today because the cost of requalifying even a trivial component to upgrade to something new is prohibitive.
Exactly.  I did some work for Tandem computing way back in the day.  Extremely long lifecycle, multiply redundant fault-tolerant servers.

Those systems get so embedded it can take decades to replace them.  In fact, my current employer was using a Tandem system at the base of its order processing system until just a few years back.  It was first deployed in the mid 90s.

Gigem

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5079 on: June 09, 2025, 05:03:39 PM »
I used to work for AMAT (Applied Materials) back in the early '00's (Aughts!).  2001 to be exact.  I worked out of the Austin facility.  I remember that we received test machines for wafer fabrication (thermal treatment was our area).  Anyways I didn't work there long, but I do remember that we had all these fancier machines that had a lot more options and were much simpler to test and calibrate. Anyways, when we got an intel machine in we would all groan because as I recall, all Intel machines had to be identical. So whatever feature was new(er) and better you couldn't have and it took longer to test.  I specifically remember something about the vacuum chamber, the newer machines had some kind of upgrade where you could pull vacuum much faster, whereas the intel machines it took forever to pull vacuum.  So when you were testing them you had to run several cycles of vacuum and thermal treatment ( like a vacuum sun-tan bed).  I also vaguely remember that we had floppy disks for the control program and I think they even ran IBM OS/2 Warp.  This was in 2001, I often wonder how long they ran that software.  

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5080 on: June 09, 2025, 10:08:21 PM »
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #5081 on: June 09, 2025, 11:03:56 PM »
I used to work for AMAT (Applied Materials) back in the early '00's (Aughts!).  2001 to be exact.  I worked out of the Austin facility.  I remember that we received test machines for wafer fabrication (thermal treatment was our area).  Anyways I didn't work there long, but I do remember that we had all these fancier machines that had a lot more options and were much simpler to test and calibrate. Anyways, when we got an intel machine in we would all groan because as I recall, all Intel machines had to be identical. So whatever feature was new(er) and better you couldn't have and it took longer to test.  I specifically remember something about the vacuum chamber, the newer machines had some kind of upgrade where you could pull vacuum much faster, whereas the intel machines it took forever to pull vacuum.  So when you were testing them you had to run several cycles of vacuum and thermal treatment ( like a vacuum sun-tan bed).  I also vaguely remember that we had floppy disks for the control program and I think they even ran IBM OS/2 Warp.  This was in 2001, I often wonder how long they ran that software. 

Yup my first job out of college was with Eaton, a direct competitor to Applied Materials in the ion implanter space.  

Our machines ran on a very old (at that time) version of Sun-Solaris UNIX operating system, and we had to hold the hardware revisions and software versions fixed in order to maintain the stability of the system. The images were burned directly onto the hard drives though, no floppy downloads. 

 

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