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Topic: OT - Weird History

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #56 on: January 28, 2022, 11:13:04 AM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on January 28, 2022, 10:41:21 AM
One other advantage we had was high octane aviation fuel.  The Germans couldn't make it.  It depended on TEL (lead) in part and branched octane. 

Jimmy Doolittle was also a PhD chemical engineer who was VP of research at Shell Chemical in Houston.  They have an enormous research facility in Westhollow they wanted to name after him, but didn't for some reason.
If you want to read a LOT more about oil (and sub-categories like the high-octane gasoline you just mentioned) in WWII, click on this link.  
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #57 on: January 28, 2022, 12:24:48 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on January 28, 2022, 10:12:02 AM
Politicians require there be enemies, if one does not exist one is created.
Kinda like Football
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2022, 12:28:58 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on January 28, 2022, 10:32:27 AM
For the British (and later also the US) the logistical problems were distance and U-Boats.  North Africa is a REALLY long way from North America/Britain and the Mediterranean was crawling with U-Boats. 

I was watching special on submarine warfare in WW2 and according from what they said none of the U-Boats returned from the Med.Still out on patrol
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2022, 12:37:09 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on January 28, 2022, 10:37:41 AM
US Gross Product entering WWII was roughly 50% of global Gross Product and it remained around that into the 1950's.  That is just staggering to think about.  Literally half of EVERYTHING made in the world was made in the US. 

Oil was obviously the biggest single factor in WWII and at the time of WWII the US produced around 2/3 of the total world oil supply.  Japanese ships and German Tanks were continually halted by lack of fuel but the Allies only ever experienced that situation as a temporary local issue, never as an overall shortage. 

At the end of WWII if there had been a massive Naval Battle pitting the US Fleet against the rest of the World's combined Navies the rest of the world would have been hopelessly outnumbered. 
From The Guns at Last Light,by Rick Atkinson,p. 633 What Churchill called the American "prodigy of organization" had shipped 18 million tons of war supplies to Europe,equivalent to the cargo in 3,600 Liberty Ships or 181,000 rail cars from 800,000 military vehicles to footwear.U.S munitions plants had turned out 40 Billion small arms ammunition,56 million grenades,500 million machine gun bullets & 23 million artillary rounds .By 1945 the USA had built 2/3 rds of all ships afloat and was making half of all manufactured goods in the world including half of all armaments.The enemy was crushed by logistical brilliance,yet the War absorbed barely 1/3rd of American gross domestic product
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2022, 12:42:11 PM »
It is tough to comprehend how fast GM et al. changed over to making planes and tanks.  The TBF became the TBM in short order because GM built it.  We had locomotive companies building tanks, along with Ford et al.  And the ammunition, vast hoards of it.

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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2022, 12:44:38 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on January 28, 2022, 11:13:04 AM
If you want to read a LOT more about oil (and sub-categories like the high-octane gasoline you just mentioned) in WWII, click on this link. 
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/egee120/book/export/html/237
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2022, 12:46:52 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on January 28, 2022, 12:42:11 PM
It is tough to comprehend how fast GM et al. changed over to making planes and tanks.  The TBF became the TBM in short order because GM built it.  We had locomotive companies building tanks, along with Ford et al.  And the ammunition, vast hoards of it.
What's that stand for?

Willow run plant in Michigan kicking out 1 B-24 every 63 minutes.I think there were 4 more B-24 plants
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2022, 12:53:50 PM »
The TBM was a torpedo bomber, it may stand for that with the M for GM.  They given name was Avenger.  There were six of them on Midway Island during the attack.

The carriers still had the old Devastators.  They were awful.  Japanese planes had longer range than US planes in 1942, in part due to having little to no armor.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2022, 01:17:54 PM »
The 1972 Sugar Bowl featured Oklahoma and Penn State.  OU won, and lost.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2022, 02:29:10 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on January 28, 2022, 12:53:50 PM
The TBM was a torpedo bomber, it may stand for that with the M for GM.  They given name was Avenger.  There were six of them on Midway Island during the attack.

The carriers still had the old Devastators.  They were awful.  Japanese planes had longer range than US planes in 1942, in part due to having little to no armor.
When I first started learning about WWII and for year afterward I never read WHY the Japanese planes had little-to-no armor and also lacked self sealing tanks.  I always assumed the lack of armor was to save weight and it was but I had no idea why they didn't have self sealing tanks and just assumed that they didn't have the technology.  

Not so.  The Japanese were perfectly capable of making self sealing tanks and they posessed the natural rubber necessary to do so.  They CHOSE not to because the self-sealing bags take up space and weight and thus reduce fuel capacity which in turn reduces range.  

The Zero had a range that was astonishing by 1941 standards mostly due to being light and NOT having self-sealing tanks.  Here are some performance stats for the Zero and the Wildcat which were roughly contemporaries:
  • Max Speed:  331 MPH for Zero, same for Wildcat
  • Never exceed speed:  370 MPH for Zero, MUCH faster for the Wildcat - Wildcat pilots learned that if they got in trouble they could dive and run away from the flimsier Zeros which would literally break apart if they tried to follow a Wildcat in a full power dive.  
  • Range:  1,160 mi for Zero, 845 mi for Wildcat
  • Climb:  3,090 ft/min for Zero, 2,303 ft/min for Wildcat

The Zero had a 940 hp twin-row 14 cylinder radial engine of 1,687 cuin while the Wildcat had a 1,200 hp twin-row 14 cylinder radial engine of 1,829 cuin.  The Zero substantially outclimbed the Wildcat despite having a deficit of 260 hp because of weight:
  • Empty weight:  3,704 lb for the Zero, 4,907 lb for the Wildcat 
  • Gross weight:  6,164 lb for the Zero, 7,423 for the Wildcat

The Zero simply weighed a LOT less.  It was also more heavily armed with two 7.7 mm (roughly .30 cal) machine guns and 2 20 mm cannons compared to the Wildcat's four .50 cal machine guns.  The Browning .50 cal guns were a bit bigger than the Zero's 7.7 mm's but barely over half the size of the Zero's 20 mm cannons.  


Interestingly, the entire Japanese Military seems to have designed and built basically everything with the same "offense first" mentality that simply ignored defense and survivability in order to maximize offensive potential.  
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2022, 02:52:20 PM »
I know the hell cats were a step up in the measureables,machine and technology from the WCs. The F-4 Corsair had problems landing on carriers later corrected with like a relief valve in the stabilizer landing gear to prevent the plane from bouncing up/down flight deck sometimes going over board.The brits actually learned to land them like cross wind because the nose was so long the pilot couldn't see where he was going.Also the Marines were mostly land based so thier pilots loved the Corsair that could fly around 450mph
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 03:13:58 PM by MrNubbz »
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2022, 02:59:10 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on January 28, 2022, 02:29:10 PM
Interestingly, the entire Japanese Military seems to have designed and built basically everything with the same "offense first" mentality that simply ignored defense and survivability in order to maximize offensive potential. 
A great example of this is what happened at Midway.  The Japanese lost four carriers but when you look closer none of the hits that they took would have been likely to be fatal to an equivalent American carrier.  All four were essentially lost to poor design and poor damage control.  

Kaga:
  • One 1,000 lb bomb
  • >2 500 lb bombs
None of these did any structural damage to the watertight integrity but they started fires on the hangar decks that ultimately blew up all the bombs and torpedos stored there along with a massive amount of avgas.  It was the fires that doomed Kaga.  

Akagi:
  • One 1,000 lb bomb
  • two 1,000 lb bombs near-missed and exploded in the water causing some damage
None of these did any structural damage to the watertight integrity but the ONE hit started fires that the crew proved unable to control and a near-miss aft eventually caused the rudder to jam thus making the ship uncontrollable.  The ship was scuttled.  

Hiryu:
  • Four 1,000 lb bombs
Again, none of these did any structural damage to the watertight integrity but they started fires that the crew couldn't control and the ship was scuttled.  

Soryu:
  • Three 1,000 lb bombs
Again, none of these did any structural damage to the watertight integrity but they started fires that the crew couldn't control and the ship was scuttled.  

Now compare that to the one American Carrier sunk at Midway:
Yorktown:
First, Yorktown took at 550 lb bomb hit at Coral Sea along with "up to 12 near misses" that damaged the hull below the waterline.  This damage was NOT fully repaired in time for the Battle of Midway but the Carrier was badly needed so it was sent out anyway basically with duct tape over the holes and repair crews still aboard.  

Next at Midway:
  • Three bombs (probably 550 lb)
  • One Val (Japanese Dive Bomber that was shot down and tumbled into the Carrier
They repaired that damage and resumed flight operations, then:
  • Two air-dropped torpedos
The torpedos Obviously did major damage to watertight integrity and the ship was abandoned but remained afloat so a salvage party was sent back aboard to try to save the ship, then:
  • Two submarine-launched torpedos that hit low due to the list from previous damage
  • One destroyer exploding next to the ship (Hamman was alongside providing assistance and was hit by another of the torpedos from the salvo that finished Yorktown and sunk almost immediately)


Yorktown absorbed about as much explosives as all four Japanese Carriers combined.  
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2022, 03:15:51 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on January 28, 2022, 02:52:20 PM
I know the hell cats were a step up in the measureables,machine and technology from the WCs. The F-4 Corsair had problems landing on carriers later corrected with like a relief valve in the stabilizer landing gear the plane would bounce up/down flight deck sometimes going over board.The brits actually learned to land them like cross wind because the nose was so long the pilot couldn't see where he was going.Also the Marines were mostly land based so thier pilots loved the Corsair that could fly around 450mph
The Corsair is my all-time favorite plane mostly because my great-aunt worked at the Blimp Building in Akron building them during WWII.  The Corsair was a Vought plane but during the war they were also built by Brewster and Goodyear.  The Vought planes were F4U's while the Brewster planes were F3A's and the Goodyear machines were FG's.  My great-aunt helped build the FG's.  

Truly an amazing plane:
  • 2,380 hp
  • 450 mph
  • six browning .50 cal machine guns
  • four 20 mm cannons
  • eight 5" rockets

It was also HIGHLY accomplished in a fighter-bomber role.  

The story of the Brits figuring out how to land it on carriers is interesting to say the least.  It was designed to be a carrier-based fighter bomber (could carry 4,000 lbs of bombs) but the US Navy at first rejected it because of the site-line issue that you pointed out.  The Brits REALLY liked the plane to they set about figuring out how to get around that issue and succeeded.  

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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2022, 03:37:37 PM »
Dick Best,Dusty Kleiss and a 3rd Pilot whose name escapes me hit 3 of the 4 carriers at The Battle of Midway.Talk about balls and being cool customers with ice running thru their veins
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