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Topic: OT - Significant Battles in History

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Cincydawg

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OT - Significant Battles in History
« on: July 20, 2019, 10:21:24 AM »
https://www.livescience.com/42716-epic-battles-that-changed-history.html

One list.  I think I'd substitute a few into the list:

Fall of Constantinople
Relief of the Siege of Vienna
Caesar and Vercingitorix?
Edington

I don't think Napoleon's invasion of Russia would "count", and the one major battle fought was not really determinant.(Borodino)

I would think about Trenton as more significant than Yorktown.

Anyway, I'm pondering battles that COULD have gone the other way and the ramifications would have been climactic.




CWSooner

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2019, 01:10:07 PM »
A pretty good list.

I'd add Antietam.  A Confederate victory likely would have secured British and French recognition and assistance.  The actual tactical stalemate was in fact a strategic victory that enabled Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation from a position of strength rather than weakness, for all practical purposes foreclosing British and French support.

I think Antietam was more significant than Gettysburg.  I might even argue that Grant's Vicksburg campaign was more significant than Gettysburg.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 01:16:01 PM by CWSooner »
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2019, 01:15:20 PM »
Antietam.  A Confederate victory likely would have secured British and French recognition and assistance.

Was there much chance of a Confederate victory though?  I suppose an alternative is if Lee's orders had not been found and McClellan moved even slower than he did.

I suppose then the site of the battle would change to somewhere else, maybe Gettysburg ...

CWSooner

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2019, 01:21:37 PM »
Yeah, a Confederate victory likely would have taken place at a different location, but Lee had beaten McClellan earlier that year in the Seven Days battles with far weaker forces than he had at Antietam.

Even if Lee had not fought a decisive battle no northern soil in the fall of 1862, had he been able to rampage through Pennsylvania, extorting tribute from northern cities, burning northern bridges, tearing up northern railroad tracks, capturing runaway slaves and free blacks and taking them back to the South in slavery, and then escape back to Virginia with a supply of northern foodstuffs, weapons, horses and wagons, that might have been enough to bring about the foreign recognition.
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drewactual

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2019, 01:26:01 PM »
My personal opinion is any Civil War battle shouldn't be on the lost.  Reason: even if the confederacy had won, in some strange reality, there would have been another war within 20 years to the same purpose and ends, and what resulted would have resulted if there would have been one, two, three or more wars.... it's fortunate there was only one and so we wouldn't have been so weakened as a nation another nation could easily take us out. 

Outside of that and using the same logic, it narrows the battles that truly impacted world history down to those that truly altered trajectories of empires. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2019, 05:11:11 PM »
I thought this was going to be a list like
1971 Nebraska vs Oklahoma
1993 FSU vs Notre Dame



Silly me.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2019, 08:20:43 AM »
The Seven Days battles of course were tactically relatively indecisive.  Malvern Hill was a southern disaster of a sort.  I know McClellan was being fed a line about the South having 200,000 troops.  It was weird that Pope would try and come south while McClellan's forces were still en route.  Problem with wanting glory instead of results.

There are some battles in history like Cannae that were astonishing in a tactical sense but later led to a strategic defeat.  Invading Russia seems like a bad idea.

Imagine the Nazis had been able to take the Caucasus and just wall of Stalingrad as they did Leningrad and the oil dries up for the Soviets.

I don't know if they really could have done that longer term.

CWSooner

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2019, 10:07:34 AM »
The Seven Days battles illustrate something interesting, one commander defeating the other commander without defeating his troops.  Tactically, the Union won more than it lost in the Seven Days.  Strategically, McClellan (always ready and willing to believe that he was outnumbered 2 to 1 when the reverse was true) was beaten back even has his subordinates were giving better than they got.

McClellan should have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty and abandoning his command after that little campaign.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2019, 10:47:51 AM »
McClellan is a very odd duck to me.  Lincoln turned to him again after this mess and he could have ended the war at Antietam, most think, had he put all his troops into the attack instead of piecemealing it.  He had Lee up against a river with only part of his army assembled, admittedly in a solid defensive position.

Council of fears.

That would be a good name for a book, sort of Tom Clancy like.

CWSooner

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2019, 10:50:01 AM »
McClellan is a very odd duck to me.  Lincoln turned to him again after this mess and he could have ended the war at Antietam, most think, had he put all his troops into the attack instead of piecemealing it.  He had Lee up against a river with only part of his army assembled, admittedly in a solid defensive position.

Council of fears.

That would be a good name for a book, sort of Tom Clancy like.
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2019, 10:54:55 AM »
The Seven Days battles illustrate something interesting, one commander defeating the other commander without defeating his troops.  Tactically, the Union won more than it lost in the Seven Days.  Strategically, McClellan (always ready and willing to believe that he was outnumbered 2 to 1 when the reverse was true) was beaten back even has his subordinates were giving better than they got.

What did Lincoln say? Something like "if I gave him a million men,he'd swear the enemy had 2,and he'd lay down kicking and screaming for 3"

CWS what did Stalin tell the Japanese about Anglo-American intentions? - you mentioned this
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2019, 11:01:02 AM »
Lincoln said something like "If you're not going to use the army, maybe I could borrow it" or somesuch.

Not going after Lee at Antietam when he was trying to retreat back across the Potomac ......

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2019, 01:13:57 PM »
Oh,Old Abe tried everything and said both of those.McClellan was reincarnated in the form of Montgomery - do very little,deflect all blame and weasel in on the credit
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2019, 01:29:08 PM »
I was thinking perhaps the naval action between the French and British off Yorktown were significant also.

 

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