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Topic: OT - Significant Battles in History

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2019, 03:09:23 PM »
I'd add Antietam.  A Confederate victory likely would have secured British and French recognition and assistance.  The actual tactical stalemate was in fact a strategic victory that enabled Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation from a position of strength rather than weakness, for all practical purposes foreclosing British and French support.
This brings up what I think is a really interesting follow-on hypothetical:

Suppose the Confederates win at Antietam and that the British and French follow that up with recognition and aid to the fledgling Confederacy.  At that point it becomes reasonably possible that Lincoln loses the election of 1864 to a "peace" candidate (probably not the losing McClellan).  Ok, so the effort to secede proves successful and the US is split into a Northern United States of America and a Southern Confederate States of America.  

WWI was only 50 years later.  Even in the actual event there was a lot of support in the North for the Central Powers largely because there were a lot of first and second generation immigrants from those countries and first and second generation Irish who didn't care for Great Britain.  Without the more Anglophilic South to balance that, perhaps the United States (the northern part) enters the war on Germany and Austria's side.  Conversely, the Confederates who would have owed their independence to Britain and France may well have joined on their side.  Thus you end up with WWI being fought in trenches in Northern Virginia as well as Eastern France.  Without US support, does the French army collapse?  Do the Central Powers and the United States win WWI?  Then what?  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2019, 04:59:02 PM »
My guess is history changes so much, none of that happens.  Part of the reason for the US going to war was the German cable to Mexico.  That would have annoyed the South, not the North.  My guess is that the South might have split further over 50 years.  A state could get into a snit over whatever and say Bye.

East Tennessee was not supportive of the Confederacy in the main, nor were any of the mountainous area of GA/NC/VA.  WV might have "grown" a few counties.

Texas might have said Bye. 

Wilson ran for reelection on a peac platform but that changed in 1917 with unrestricted submarine warfare and the encouragement of Mexico to attack us.  We could have stayed out of it entirely.  It might not have happened either of course.  Some think the States would have found a way to recombine.  A major issue was the status of the territories whether slave of free.  If the South had been assured by an Amendment that slavery would be protected they might have rejoined.

And the North had a LOT of German immigrants by 1917 as well.  Cincinnati was very Germanic.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2019, 05:01:53 PM »
There was a canal through downtown Cincinnati that went north in the 19th century.  North of that canal was an area still called "Over the Rhine" or OTR where the Germans largely settled.  They had schools that taught only in German.  The canal was replaced circa 1928 with a subway which was about 65% finished when they ran out of money and the roof was turned into Kaiser Wilhelm Strasse, renamed Central Avernue before WW I.  A lot of street names were changed.

One now is Pete Rose Way named after some baseball player.

CWSooner

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2019, 08:00:54 PM »
Armored decks were a trade-off.  Armor is heavy (obviously) and the deck is substantially above the waterline which means that in addition to the overall weight problem, armored decks also hamper stability. 

The American answer to this conundrum at least when the Essex class was designed was to build carriers with lightweight wooden decks and use the weight savings to better armor the "strength deck" which was below the hangars.  Thus, it was REALLY hard to put a bomb into a boiler room or magazine of an Essex (because the bomb needed to penetrate the unarmored flight deck, the unarmored deck between the two levels of hangars, and the armored strength deck.  This is part of the reason that no Essex class carriers were EVER sunk in combat.  It also meant that the American Essex Class carriers could carry a substantially larger air-wing. 

During WWII the American Essex Class Carriers displaced about 36,000 tons at full load and carried around 100 aircraft of various types.  The British Illustrious Class Carriers displaced about 23,000 tons and carried up to 57 aircraft.  That isn't an entirely fair comparison because the Essex Class Carriers were larger but if you do the math, the Essex's carried approximately one aircraft for each 360 tons of displacement while the Illustrious's carried approximately one aircraft for each 403 tons of displacement.  I also think that comparison shorts the unarmored US carriers a bit because wiki lists the Illustrious as carrying 36-57 planes while the Essex is listed as carrying 90-100.  Later in the war I know the US started adding extra planes (mostly fighters and night-fighters for defense) so I think the US Carriers actually had a bigger disparity. 

More planes made the carriers more potent because obviously the main defensive and offensive armament of a CV is the planes. 

Armored deck carriers were also harder to fix when they did get damaged.  US crews simply planked over the holes and kept fighting.
That's a great exposition, Medina.  I agree with it completely.
I thought that you were going to tell WHY the Brits made the trade-offs that they did.
Another way of looking at it is the age-old weighing of offense vs. defense that we also see in tanks and aircraft.  The U.S. carriers carried more offensive combat power whereas the British carriers were at least theoretically more survivable.  There's an easily understood comparison between the Japanese A6M Zero fighter and the U.S. Navy's F4F Wildcat fighter.  The Zero was all offense.  It had long range, higher top speed, better maneuverability, and heavier armament than the Wildcat.  But it was lightly constructed and didn't have self-sealing fuel tanks.  The Wilcat, OTOH, was slower, less maneuverable, shorter ranged, and less heavily armed.  But it was tough.  It was built stronger and it had self-sealing fuel tanks.
As is often the case with trade-offs, the victor was often the side that made the most of its strengths while minimizing its weaknesses.  The Japanese did that better at the start of the Pacific War, not really consciously, but because the Zero was a fighter pilots fighter plane.  Fighter pilots want to dogfight, and that played right into the hands of the Zero pilots.  Wildcat pilots had to learn to use tactics that would let them survive and win against the Zero that had all the better specs.  They learned (as the Flying Tigers had in China) that American fighters could outdive Japanese fighters, so the way to attack them was to strike from above and dive away.  Not only could they dive faster, but they could maneuver better at high speeds, because the Zero's controls were designed to maximize maneuverability at low-to-medium speeds--they got very stiff at high speeds.  (The Flying Tigers had assumed that they were fighting Zeroes, but their opponents might have been Japanese Army fighters instead.  It didn't matter; the principle was the same.)

Also, Cdr. John Thach developed the "beam defense" (a.k.a. "Thach Weave") tactic of flying with the flight leader and his wingman flying spread out, roughly abreast.  If either were attacked from the rear, they would both towards each other, which would give the plane not being attacked a clear shot at the Zero chasing the other plane.  That worked with larger flormations as well--one pair of Wildcats would fly abreast of another pair, and the same principle applied on a larger scale.

Finally, the Zero's heavier armament (2x23mm + 2x7.7mm vs. 4 or 6x.50-cal)) didn't really matter.  The Wildcat could take a lot of punishment and keep flying.  The Zero could take much less--in some case, a single burst of .50-caliber machine-gun fire.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2019, 06:01:09 AM »
The tank design trade off thing fascinates me as well.  Everyone in WW Two had tank destroyers, basically anti-tank guns mounted on some kind of chassis often with no turret.  (The Japanese didn't have much armor of any type, some lighter tanks.)

The French had more and heavier tanks in 1940 than did the attacking Germans but they largely had no radios so they coordinated with flags.  Um, yeah.  The Germans were still using the light Panzer II with a 20 mm main gun that could not penetrate decent armor.  The French Char bis 2B tank was almost impenetrable by any German tank gun at any angle and the Somua 35 S was at least equal to the early Panzer III.  The Panzer IV had a short barrel gun intended to help infantry attacks.

The French managed almost no counterattacks on the thin German advance.  The British managed one fairly good one that gave Rommel quite the fright but it was unsupported and uncoordinated.  And of course the Germans was astonished by the Russian more modern tanks, the T-34 and the ponderous KV series.  The Panther looks quite a bit like the T-34 for obvious reasons.

I read that the US had developed a cheap way to provide higher octane fuel than the Germans could make, which enabled higher compression in aircraft engines and thus more power.  I forget now the technique, but it was an advantage later in the war.  Our Cessnas would run on "100LL", which was 100 octane Low Lead" aviation fuel.

The engine still operated at something like 6.5:1 compression though, without any turbo.  It was a huge 4 cylinder boxer air cooled engine with 180 hp.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2019, 08:21:29 AM »
The Zero was all offense.  It had long range, higher top speed, better maneuverability, and heavier armament than the Wildcat.  But it was lightly constructed and didn't have self-sealing fuel tanks.  The Wilcat, OTOH, was slower, less maneuverable, shorter ranged, and less heavily armed.  But it was tough.  It was built stronger and it had self-sealing fuel tanks.
I've known for years that the Zero didn't have self-sealing tanks and that American fighters did, but I only recently learned WHY.  I always thought that EVERYONE would want self-sealing tanks so I guess I just assumed that the Japanese either didn't have the requisite technology or that they didn't have the requisite materials.  That was not correct.  The Zero lacked self-sealing tanks due to a conscious decision made by Japanese designers.  Self-sealing tanks had less capacity because all that self-sealing goo takes up space that is therefore unavailable for fuel.  The Japanese made a decision to do without self-sealing tanks in order to increase range. 
They learned (as the Flying Tigers had in China) that American fighters could outdive Japanese fighters, so the way to attack them was to strike from above and dive away.  Not only could they dive faster, but they could maneuver better at high speeds, because the Zero's controls were designed to maximize maneuverability at low-to-medium speeds--they got very stiff at high speeds.  (The Flying Tigers had assumed that they were fighting Zeroes, but their opponents might have been Japanese Army fighters instead.  It didn't matter; the principle was the same.)

Also, Cdr. John Thach developed the "beam defense" (a.k.a. "Thach Weave") tactic of flying with the flight leader and his wingman flying spread out, roughly abreast.  If either were attacked from the rear, they would both towards each other, which would give the plane not being attacked a clear shot at the Zero chasing the other plane.  That worked with larger flormations as well--one pair of Wildcats would fly abreast of another pair, and the same principle applied on a larger scale.

Finally, the Zero's heavier armament (2x23mm + 2x7.7mm vs. 4 or 6x.50-cal)) didn't really matter.  The Wildcat could take a lot of punishment and keep flying.  The Zero could take much less--in some case, a single burst of .50-caliber machine-gun fire.
It is amazing that Chennault (Flying Tiger commander)* didn't do a better job of getting the US Army and Navy up to speed on the strengths and weaknesses of the various Japanese aircraft.  Instead the Navy had to learn all of the same lessons that the Flying Tigers had already learned. 

John Thach deserves all the recognition he got, his "weave" defense really changed the balance of power in the skies over the Pacific. 

Similarly, Army Air Corp P38 pilots learned quickly that their enormous twin-engine fighters stood no chance against a Zero in a turning dogfight but they had a speed advantage (especially in a dive) and they could use that to keep their distance and make wide passes and blast away at Japanese aircraft as they flew by. 

*I assumed that you ( @CWSooner ) know who Claire Chennault was but I wanted to explain it for other potential readers.  
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 08:30:41 AM by medinabuckeye1 »

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2019, 08:29:31 AM »
The French had more and heavier tanks in 1940 than did the attacking Germans but they largely had no radios so they coordinated with flags.  Um, yeah.  The Germans were still using the light Panzer II with a 20 mm main gun that could not penetrate decent armor.  The French Char bis 2B tank was almost impenetrable by any German tank gun at any angle and the Somua 35 S was at least equal to the early Panzer III.  The Panzer IV had a short barrel gun intended to help infantry attacks.

The French managed almost no counterattacks on the thin German advance.  The British managed one fairly good one that gave Rommel quite the fright but it was unsupported and uncoordinated.  
In addition to design and the lack of radios, the French were not using the superior tactics, blitzkrieg as it was called.  The French thought that the lesson of WWI was that it was FAR better to be on the defensive in strong fortified positions and let your enemy expend himself attacking.  Their tanks were basically considered to be an infantry weapon so they were parceled out with infantry units.  German tanks, by contrast, were massed at the point of attack to overwhelm the defenders and get into the enemy's rear where they could cut off supplies and surround opposing armies.  

Toward the end of the war the American Army REALLY refined and improved those blitzkrieg tactics by putting relatively low-level tankers and infantrymen in communication with local ground-attack aircraft.  

FWIW:
At the beginning of WWII pretty much everybody assumed that tanks were anti-infantry weapons so they were not equipped with weapons large enough to take out enemy tanks.  That was a separate job for anti-tank guns that were not heavily armored (or not armored at all) because they were not supposed to be beyond the front lines.  The experience of the war showed that tanks often fought each other and thus needed weapons large enough to take out enemy tanks.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2019, 08:41:24 AM »
The Germans apparently never used the term "blitzkrieg".  I think the Brits coined the term.  

It's really just combined arms warfare.

The French wanted to fight on the defensive and in Belgium.  They were locked into that concept and couldn't adjust.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2019, 09:29:13 AM »
The armor versus speed concept is common throughout history.  Battleships versus battle cruisers comes to mind also.  

The A-10 Warthog is perhaps the most heavily armored aircraft in recent history.  The F-35 is "armored" using stealth instead of literal armor.

Modern tanks today are "main battle tanks" and the concept of a TD is almost nonexistent.  I think modern naval ships are nearly unarmored.  

CWSooner

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2019, 11:19:29 AM »
I've known for years that the Zero didn't have self-sealing tanks and that American fighters did, but I only recently learned WHY.  I always thought that EVERYONE would want self-sealing tanks so I guess I just assumed that the Japanese either didn't have the requisite technology or that they didn't have the requisite materials.  That was not correct.  The Zero lacked self-sealing tanks due to a conscious decision made by Japanese designers.  Self-sealing tanks had less capacity because all that self-sealing goo takes up space that is therefore unavailable for fuel.  The Japanese made a decision to do without self-sealing tanks in order to increase range.  It is amazing that Chennault (Flying Tiger commander)* didn't do a better job of getting the US Army and Navy up to speed on the strengths and weaknesses of the various Japanese aircraft.  Instead the Navy had to learn all of the same lessons that the Flying Tigers had already learned. 

John Thach deserves all the recognition he got, his "weave" defense really changed the balance of power in the skies over the Pacific. 

Similarly, Army Air Corp P38 pilots learned quickly that their enormous twin-engine fighters stood no chance against a Zero in a turning dogfight but they had a speed advantage (especially in a dive) and they could use that to keep their distance and make wide passes and blast away at Japanese aircraft as they flew by.

*I assumed that you ( @CWSooner ) know who Claire Chennault was but I wanted to explain it for other potential readers.
On the subject of self-sealing fuel tanks, we didn't have them in our planes when WWII began in Europe.  It was one of the things the Brits and French didn't like about the planes they bought from us.  So we learned from them.
You and CD discussed the French tanks upthread.  I would add to what you two said by noting that most French tanks didn't have a commander's cupola, so it was harder for French tank commanders to acquire and track targets.
Back to airplanes, the most numerous fighter in the Armée de l'Air when the Germans invaded in May 1940 was the American Curtiss Hawk (P-36 export model).  It also shot down the most German airplanes of any fighter the French had.
Claire Chennault's reports of Japanese aerial prowess were mostly ignored because he had burned all his bridges in the Army, and because the Army and Navy didn't talk to each other very much. Also, by the time he could provide credible combat reports--the Flying Tigers didn't go into combat until a couple of weeks after after Pearl Harbor--Army and Navy pilots were also encountering the Zero, and learning their hard lessons.
This might surprise you, Medina.  Or maybe not.  Chennault's son John commanded the 11th Fighter Squadron, 343rd Fighter Group, in the Aleutians campaign.  His P-40s were painted with a tiger-head insignia and the unit called itself the Aleutian Tigers.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 11:30:01 AM by CWSooner »
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2019, 08:22:15 AM »
And the North had a LOT of German immigrants by 1917 as well. 
Ya,Schlitz,Stroh,Pabst,Busch,Miller,Hamm,Schmidts,Moerlein,Yuengling
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2019, 08:28:13 AM »
The Russians had some nice aircraft in WW Two also.  They tended to be short legged a bit because they didn't need much range.

The German Fw-190D was an excellent interceptor.


SFBadger96

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2019, 12:59:32 PM »
The OP list evokes the difference between winning battles and winning wars. Wars generally have strategic purposes that are much different than holding a particular piece of land--Clausewitz's view of war as an extension of politics and all that. The aim of war is generally to subdue, not destroy, the enemy, but--of course--that often requires a fair amount of destruction.

Souring a populace on fighting the war is often more effective than winning on a battlefield. I'm of the opinion (not well founded) that assuming motivated states, the better supplied and equipped (e.g., the side with more resources) will win the war, but that's a big assumption--the motivation to continue fighting often trumps resources. Both overcome battlefield tactics.

The battle that tactically changes the tide of war is rare. As we were discussing earlier, it is unlikely that an allied disaster on D-Day would ultimately have lead to a German victory, only that it would have prolonged the war. Cannae--everyone's favorite Roman battle--couldn't save Carthage. The Siege of Orleans didn't result in the French winning the war. And while Yorktown was the culmination of the Revolutionary War, it neither ended it, nor was it necessarily the most important victory in the war (though surely it was important).

Of course, victory and valor are powerful recruiting tools, so undoubtedly help maintain or grow a people's motivation to fight.



And on a totally separate note, while there haven't been many tank destroyers in the WWII sense, all developed armies have tank destroyers, they just don't carry that moniker. AT missiles are more and more effective and are carried on all sorts of vehicles (certainly a great improvement over the "bazooka"). And, particularly as munitions continue to make heavy enough armor difficult to come by, fast, lightly armored vehicles carrying anti-tank weapons seem to be proliferating.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Significant Battles in History
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2019, 01:15:53 PM »
The Russians had some nice aircraft in WW Two also.  They tended to be short legged a bit because they didn't need much range.

The German Fw-190D was an excellent interceptor.
Necessity is the mother of invention.  

The Russian and German fighters tended to have MUCH shorter ranges than the American and British fighters because the Russians and Germans either had airfields very close to the front lines or were defending their own cities so they didn't need long range.  The Americans and British wanted to be able to send fighters to escort their long range 4-engine bombers on bombing missions deep in enemy territory so they developed long range fighters up to the task.  

Then there is the Pacific theater:  Naval aircraft pretty much inherently needed long range so both the US and the Japanese developed long range carrier-based fighters.  However, later in the war one of the main issues that the US had to deal with was the Kamikaze threat.  For that they didn't need long range fighters but they needed REALLY FAST and REALLY well armed fighters and at the end of the war the US Pacific fleet had some incredibly capable fighters for this role.  

Another range comparison:
If you are ever in Chicago I highly recommend the Museum of Science and Industry.  They have a German WWII U-boat, the U505 in the museum.  The story of the capture of the U505 and the fact that the US Navy's high command was actually VERY unhappy about it (because, unbeknownst to the commander on the scene, the US had already cracked the German code and the brass was afraid that the Germans would find out we captured on of their submarines and change their code) is fascinating.  

Anyway, tour the U505 then tour any one of the innumerable US WWII submarines that can be found all over the US and note the difference.  The German submarine is tiny compared to the US submarines.  The reason is simply that the Atlantic is a LOT smaller than the Pacific.  The German subs didn't have to travel as far so they didn't need to carry as much fuel and provisions so they were smaller.  The American submarines had to travel much, much farther so they needed a lot more space for fuel and provisions so they were much larger.  

 

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