header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame

 (Read 10211 times)

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20280
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2017, 05:18:48 PM »
So the last guy thinks that Michigan can't do any better, but should move on from him anyway?

That doesn't seem to be very well thought out.
I don't think he's saying that at all.  I think he's saying he's a good coach, but no savior, certainly has done nothing to prove he belongs among the elite, but that maybe Michigan is a good program with a good coach.  Nothing more, nothing less.
I think that's where I am too.  At best right now he's the 4th best coach in the division.  Nationally, maybe a top 10 coach, but I wouldn't put him there.  He's an upgrade over RR or Hoke.  I don't think UM fans should be unhappy at all.  But I don't see any kind of savior.  I just think Michigan has a good coach.  And maybe that's ok, because we've seen basically every major program except OSU see that you can do a whole lot worse.

grillrat

  • Player
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 590
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2017, 05:41:42 PM »
.....and people are freakin' overreacting idiots.

Do I have to remind everybody out there that at the beginning of the season we were all saying (or at least the reasonable ones......) that this is a very young Michigan team that is going to take a small step back from last year?

Most mediots were predicting an 8-4 or 9-3 (at best) year.  They were pointing to next year being the year that Michigan was going to truly have a chance to make some noise.  I think the strong victory over Florida and the dominant defensive performance of the first few games kinda set expectations a little too high a little early.

If he goes 0-fer against MSU, OSU, and PSU next year, then maybe we can have this conversation.  Until then, it's waaaaaaaaay premature.

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20280
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2017, 05:59:05 PM »
I think what has them riled up, is that for whatever personnel losses they had, they paled vastly compared to what MSU had, even before all of the offseason defections.

MSU was returning 5 starters total, and I think only starts 1 senior this year.  So I think if UM went 9-3, and lost to UW, OSU and PSU, nobody would have said anything.  But they lost again to a team they view as Little Brother, he has a dismal record against MSU/OSU, and this was an MSU team in far worse shape than his own, and he had them at home.

And I don't think anyone was predicting 8-4.  I think 8-4 was the floor if they lost every "losable" game, that got moved to 9-3 when they beat Florida.

Brutus Buckeye

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11229
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2017, 06:40:21 PM »
Yeah, that's a good point. 

Losing to MSU at home after a bye week is obviously not where they want to be. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

Temp430

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2503
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2017, 09:49:54 AM »
Gotta snicker at Dantonio saying he saw 40 formations from Michigan in the first half alone.  Good thing all of Michigan's starting freshmen and new starters are Rhodes scholars with photographic memories.
A decade of Victory over Penn State.

All in since 1969

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20280
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2017, 09:53:44 AM »
Gotta snicker at Dantonio saying he saw 40 formations from Michigan in the first half alone.  Good thing all of Michigan's starting freshmen and new starters are Rhodes scholars with photographic memories.
WTKA was discussing it yesterday, Nick Baumgardner saying it was true, and that maybe that was part of the problem with the offense, that Michigan is trying to show their opponent so many different looks, to force them to prepare for so many different things, that they themselves wind up preparing so many different looks, that they have nothing they do actually well, because when they need to go to the well, they have nothing they know they can just rely on, they are too busy trying to be too cute and show too many different things.

So you might want to snicker at the UM media saying the exact same things, because Baumgardner and Michael Spath both echoed exactly what Dantonio was saying.

And hyperbole isn't necessarily a Rhodes scholar type vocab word.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 09:55:31 AM by ELA »

Temp430

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2503
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2017, 10:00:34 AM »
I agree that Michigan is putting too much out there for a young team.  Not knocking Dantonio rather hoping Michigan's coaching staff can take the hint.  Michigan needs to simplify the play book and teach fundamentals. And first and foremost, fix the OL.
A decade of Victory over Penn State.

All in since 1969

ELA

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 20280
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2017, 10:16:42 AM »
I think the playbook is too big, and they aren't catering it to the players.  They were moving the ball well in 4-5 yard chunks on that first drive, then they threw back to back fade routes from a backup QB too young, undersized WRs.  Had to settle for a FG?  Why?

I think he still has too much NFL mentality in him that even the worst teams have a lot of really good players, and can beat you.  In college, particularly at Michigan when you are just piling top ten classes on top of each other, sometimes you can just win by having more talent.

Harbaugh coached that game like he needed to win by outscheming, and he asked his players to do things they couldn't, particularly later in that weather.

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13062
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2017, 10:38:25 AM »

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14324
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2017, 11:10:07 AM »

He was one of the most average QB's that I've ever seen. And the truth is I'd freaking KILL for him to be the QB on this team. He rarely made the killer mistakes. He was efficient, knew what he could do and what he couldn't. 

Speight is just bad. O'Korn goes from really good to spectacularly bad play to play. He's like flipping a coin- you never know what you're gonna get.

How sad is it that Rudock is the best QB that Michigan's had in like 10 years? 

Michigan went on a run from Harbaugh to Henne where just about every QB that started more than 1 game got drafted by the NFL.

Even Henson- who would've been the #1 pick in 2002 had he not went off to play baseball for 3 1/2 years wound up being drafted in the 6th round by the Texans. Even Mallett who wound up starting a couple games as a true Frosh and then transferring wound up getting drafted. Grbac, Collins, Griese, Brady, Henson, Navarre, Henne- went on a nice run of stability at QB.

Ever since Lloyd retired just been a freaking mess. Nick Sheridan/Steve Threet- what a disaster. Tater Tot had potential but he flunked out of school. Denard was a RB playing QB. Gardner fell apart his senior year. Shane was never the 5* he was hyped up to be. Now they got Wilt the Stilt and O'Korn.

Rudock was BY FAR the best QB they've had since the Lloyd Carr era ended.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 11:11:44 AM by Mdot21 »

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14324
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #80 on: October 10, 2017, 11:19:16 AM »
I think the playbook is too big, and they aren't catering it to the players.  They were moving the ball well in 4-5 yard chunks on that first drive, then they threw back to back fade routes from a backup QB too young, undersized WRs.  Had to settle for a FG?  Why?

I think he still has too much NFL mentality in him that even the worst teams have a lot of really good players, and can beat you.  In college, particularly at Michigan when you are just piling top ten classes on top of each other, sometimes you can just win by having more talent.

Harbaugh coached that game like he needed to win by outscheming, and he asked his players to do things they couldn't, particularly later in that weather.
They threw a fade route to a back-up TE and then to a 5'11 Eddie McDoom. That blew my mind. Both of those plays. You have DPJ who is 6'2 and literally has like a 47" vertical- he is a freak. Might wanna throw that to him instead of a 5'11 speedster. Or try 6'3 Moe Ways or 6'4 Drake Harris or 6'5 Nico Collins.

The biggest issues are the play-calling and the OL. Their RB's also kinda stink. Ty Isaac is still hurt- and ball security was always his #1 issue going back to USC. Which is why you saw more Karran Higdon. Who I am not a fan of. He is too small. I love Chris Evans but he goes down on first contact way too easily.

The main problem is the OL. And I just don't think it's fixable for this year. They are missing Grant Newsome and LTT in the worst way.

TresselownsUM

  • Red Shirt
  • ***
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 233
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #81 on: October 10, 2017, 11:37:27 AM »
this season reminds me of OSU last year, and this game in particular reminds me a lot of OSU 2015. Sparty just knows how to win in a monsoon.

but last year OSU had arguably the best defense of my lifetime, 40 years old. but the offense could do absolutely nothing, when all you need is maybe 17-20 points per game. it's mind numbingly frustrating to watch that, week after week after week. teams with way less talent, or equal talent whatever somehow can score 25-30 points but your team that's got tons of 4 and 5 star talent can't. it's hard to explain.

but overall, every program goes through cycles, Michigan unfortunately has just been in a bad cycle for it's program, no big 10 titles since 2004 I think is pretty hard to imagine. the buckeyes had cooper, that was about 13 years with off the top of my head with only 1 or maybe 2 big 10 titles?

and winning the BIG is unquestionably tougher now, the conference has better coaches, you can't get a shared title anymore with the advent of the championship game, hell, urban's only won 1 big 10 title and he's never lost more than 1 big 10 game in a season. I think everyone just sees Alabama and Clemson doing it virtually every season and think their program is as good as that program, but it's probably not.

toss the fact that UM is in the same division as OSU, PSU and MSU, and that's pretty tough just to make it to Indy. Wisconsin on the other hand has a virtual cakewalk every year, but I digress......

UM will win BIG titles under harbaugh if he stays long enough, it just might take 4-5 years instead of the 2-3  years that Saban, B Stoops, J Tressel, U Meyer, were somehow able to pull off in just 2 years.

TresselownsUM

  • Red Shirt
  • ***
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 233
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2017, 11:39:49 AM »
Their RB's also kinda stink.

This is a huge problem, if you think traditional UM teams, they pound you with the rock, play action pass with their quality QB's, run tons of screen passes to the RB's etc.

They gotta somehow figure out how to run the ball again, that will help alleviate a lot of the other issues.

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13062
  • Liked:
Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2017, 11:50:09 AM »
It is something.  How much hype have we heard about Michigan's tight ends, especially Bunting and Wheatley?  But McKeon is clearly the go to guy at tight end for them.  Really, McKeon and Perry are the only consistent guys for Michigan's offense.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.