CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Temp430 on October 02, 2017, 08:07:27 AM
-
Great win for Sparty in East Lansing over Iowa. Great way to start the week preparing for Michigan. The Wolverines will likely start John O'Korn at QB for the first time this year after Speight was knocked out of the Purdue game. Rumors abound that Speight broke a vertebra in his neck and is out for the year despite Coach Harbaugh's claim of "soft tissue" only.
http://www.diehardsport.com/college-football/heres-hearing-wilton-speights-injury/ (http://www.diehardsport.com/college-football/heres-hearing-wilton-speights-injury/)
Kickoff is at 7:30 PM and the game will be broadcast on ABC. Ann Arbor residents have been advised to bring inside any and all sofas they may have on their front porch.
-
The emergence of the Paul Bunyan Trophy coincided with MSU joining the Big Ten in 1953.
Prior to that, most of the games were played in AA.
Michigan won the first game in 1898
In the 19ots Ttun went 2-0-1 vs MSU
In the 1910s Ttun went 8-2 vs MSU, with Sparty collecting their first victory in 1913
In the 20s Ttun swept MSU 10-0
In the 30s it was all knotted up at 4-4-2
In the 40s Ttun swept MSU 8-0
In the 50s MSU went 3-0 before joining the Big Ten, and then went 4-2-1 vs Ttun to close out the decade.
In the 60s MSU went 7-2-1 vs Ttun
In the 70s Ttun went 9-1 vs MSU
In the 80s Ttun went 8-2 vs MSU
In the 90s Ttun went 6-4 vs MSU
In the 20ots Ttun went 7-3 vs MSU
So far in the 2010s MSU is 5-2 vs Ttun
-
definitely a nice bounce back for sparty.
I think both offenses are going to struggle to score in this game, but overall at this point I think UM's defense is better and the game's being played in their stadium, so I'd have to give them the slight edge.
I'm somewhat surprised to see UM open as a 13 1/2 point favorite, I guess maybe the ND loss is still in the back of most vegas minds, but if I heard right MSU outgained ND in that game, so maybe that was a bit fluky.
my initial thoughts are UM 24-14.
-
yeah, rumor mill is Speight's injury is a broken vertebrae. If that's true I wonder if his career at Michigan is basically over.
-
Dave Wanndestat picked MSU to pull off the upset. Here's to hoping his game picks are as good as his coaching lol.
On a serious note, man that guy was a horrible coach. Pays dividends being Jimmy Johnson's home boy. Got 3 head coach jobs bc of it.
Michigan is a 13.5 point favorite according to Vegas. I'd be all over that if I was a betting man. That seems WAY too high to me. To me it's a pick 'em, flip a coin, Michigan should be like a 3.5 point favorite just based on it being a home game.
-
Agree, Sparty always gives Michigan their best shot. With the pass blocking issues O'Korn is sure to be running for his life again on Saturday.
-
Michigan's only home losses under Harbaugh were Michigan State and Ohio State in 2015, which happened to be the only two home games in which Michigan was the lower-ranked team. The only home win by less than 10 was Wisconsin last year.... Meanwhile, Michigan State hasn't played an away game yet this year.
Michigan's defense should be able to dominate in this one. I don't think Michigan will run the ball very well, but if O'Korn looks like he did against Purdue, then the passing game should be productive, especially with 2 weeks to prepare. MSU's defense probably isn't as good as Florida's, and Michigan scored 26 in that game from their offense, alone. Avoiding and forcing turnovers will be critical, though. Special teams would also appear to be an advantage for Michigan.
All that said, Michigan always gets Sparty's best shot, so it will probably be closer than it should be.
30-13
-
Side note, what happened to McDoom? I don't think I've even seen him this year. Looking at his stats, it doesn't appear like I'm far off.
-
McDoom's role seems to have diminished with the struggles of the OLine, since he still just specializes in jet sweeps and the like. Perhaps if the playbook gets opened up a bit more against better competition, especially coming off a bye week, he'll be more involved in the future. I still think he has more upside than Crawford, who has been disappointing, but I suspect run-blocking and other mental aspects are what holds him back in comparison. Ian Bunting has also fallen behind the other TEs on the roster for some reason (Gentry and McKeon were really good against Purdue, but it's still kind of disappointing that he hasn't emerged). I've also been expecting occasional snaps from the other two freshman receivers, Nico Collins and Oliver Martin, but they haven't gotten on the field at all, if I'm not mistaken.
-
I've yet to see anything from Florida to make me think they have a good defense (or a good team). They haven't seen a game where they've given up less than 20. MSU, at this point, is a superior team to Florida, though UF did show a little offense against Vanderbilt, for whatever that's worth.
Michigan's only home losses under Harbaugh were Michigan State and Ohio State in 2015, which happened to be the only two home games in which Michigan was the lower-ranked team. The only home win by less than 10 was Wisconsin last year.... Meanwhile, Michigan State hasn't played an away game yet this year.
Michigan's defense should be able to dominate in this one. I don't think Michigan will run the ball very well, but if O'Korn looks like he did against Purdue, then the passing game should be productive, especially with 2 weeks to prepare. MSU's defense probably isn't as good as Florida's, and Michigan scored 26 in that game from their offense, alone. Avoiding and forcing turnovers will be critical, though. Special teams would also appear to be an advantage for Michigan.
All that said, Michigan always gets Sparty's best shot, so it will probably be closer than it should be.
30-13
-
I don't think O'Korn will look quite as good as he did against Purdue, with Dantonio having a week to prepare for him.
The Boilers game planned for Speight. They weren't ready for the Freak on a Leash.
All of this imo, obviously.
-
scUM rolls big time; 42-10 bad guys.
-
I've yet to see anything from Florida to make me think they have a good defense (or a good team). They haven't seen a game where they've given up less than 20. MSU, at this point, is a superior team to Florida, though UF did show a little offense against Vanderbilt, for whatever that's worth.
FWIW Massey has Florida as the #18 defense and Sparty as #19 defense in the country. I think Florida is getting big points in the metrics for a strong SOS (#3 in the country so far).
Curious to see if this will be one of those games where 20 points will get you a victory.
Saw a pretty telling statistic for the Harbaugh era at Michigan (forgive me if its already been shared here). Michigan is 30 something and 0 when rushing for 100+ yards. Michigan is 1-6 when rushing for fewer than 100 yards.
-
FWIW Massey has Florida as the #18 defense and Sparty as #19 defense in the country. I think Florida is getting big points in the metrics for a strong SOS (#3 in the country so far).
Curious to see if this will be one of those games where 20 points will get you a victory.
Saw a pretty telling statistic for the Harbaugh era at Michigan (forgive me if its already been shared here). Michigan is 30 something and 0 when rushing for 100+ yards. Michigan is 1-6 when rushing for fewer than 100 yards.
A lot of these early computer rankings incorporate preseason rankings that lose importance as the season goes on. I know Massey's uses them though I'm not sure to what degree. But by S&P+ rankings Florida is 25th, but if you take out preseason rankings they drop to 82nd. In any event, Michigan running the ball is a big deal, as being able to run the ball and play defense can win you games. If they have to rely on O'Korn, it could be a long day.
-
I've yet to see anything from Florida to make me think they have a good defense (or a good team). They haven't seen a game where they've given up less than 20. MSU, at this point, is a superior team to Florida, though UF did show a little offense against Vanderbilt, for whatever that's worth.
Bet you Florida has more guys on that defensive 2 deep drafted by the NFL than MSU.
-
Side note, what happened to McDoom? I don't think I've even seen him this year. Looking at his stats, it doesn't appear like I'm far off.
Sometimes I wonder about this offensive staff. They seem risk averse. They'd rather feature less talented players for some reason. That McDoom is a legit 4.3 with a track background. He's the fastest kid on their team, he was the fastest kid on the team last year, continually beat guys like Peppers and Chesson in foot races in practices.
They'd rather play walk-ons at WR like Nate Schonel or players who just suck despite having immense talent like Dylan Crawford or mediocre talent like Grant Perry instead of trying to feed the ball to an insane athlete like DPJ or one of the fastest dudes in the conference in McDoom.
-
If they have to rely on O'Korn, it could be a long day.
Definitely agree there. The Michigan offense isn't built to rely on the QB. But I'd rather rely on O'Korn than Speight. O'Korn had really high ups and really low downs and his struggles at Houston- but he has one thing Speight does not- talent. Give me talent over no talent everyday and twice on Saturday. It'd be one thing if Speight was just a game manager and not turning the ball over. You look at him and he's a turnover machine. Not just turning it over-but he was making back breaking cost your teams the game turnovers.
O'Korn has throws in his wheelhouse that Speight couldn't make if his life depended on it.
-
Bet you Florida has more guys on that defensive 2 deep drafted by the NFL than MSU.
MSU has trotted out some very, very good defenses without a lot of NFL picks.
-
O'Korn has throws in his wheelhouse that Speight couldn't make if his life depended on it.
If O'Korn can keep his collective ka-ka together for at least a season you may have something.He could look like a Heisman candidate one play and make you hurl the next.Consistency!Spreight could have cost M a game.Wonder if he'd still be under center sans the injury
-
MSU has trotted out some very, very good defenses without a lot of NFL picks.
Yes they have. With Iowa it seems they got their defense headed in the right direction. I expect a hard fought nasty game Saturday as is usual.
-
O'Korn has throws in his wheelhouse that Speight couldn't make if his life depended on it.
I hope you are right. O'Korn throws better on the move so that's a plus given what we've seen from Michigan's OL. Speight throws a better deep ball when he has the time which was rarely this year. I'd expect to see O'Korn in the shotgun most of the day. And the OL better protect him and Peters better be ready to play. Sparty has not forgotten Michigan breaking Lewerke's leg last year.
Also, the mental problems with the OL will get worked out eventually. Michigan has lots of talented O linemen that just need more time and experience. I knew all the "addition by subtraction" talk in the off season was BS.
-
Michigan is a 13.5 point favorite according to Vegas. I'd be all over that if I was a betting man. That seems WAY too high to me. To me it's a pick 'em, flip a coin, Michigan should be like a 3.5 point favorite just based on it being a home game.
I am taking the over.
Michigan St has plenty to rally around in last weekend's needed win over Iowa, but I don't see how their visit to Ann Arbor doesn't turn into a vengeful beatdown. This has the makings of Harbaugh unleashing his full wrath. He might not beat the Buckeyes, but he'll be sure to leave the easier of two rivals embarrassed.
-
If O'Korn can keep his collective ka-ka together for at least a season you may have something.He could look like a Heisman candidate one play and make you hurl the next.Consistency!Spreight could have cost M a game.Wonder if he'd still be under center sans the injury
When O'Korn was on point he was excellent at Houston. A real play-maker. When the wheels came off and he lost his confidence and went in the tank- he was like all-time bad. He definitely has talent, but man he was a Dr. Jekyl and Mr Hyde creature. Which obviously you don't want that if you're Harbaugh- which makes sense why he probably went with Speight- who he felt was the "safer" of the two- the better game manager. And Speight was OK. Until the Iowa game. During and since that game he has been really bad. Not just bad- but all-time bad and just a real turnover machine. Might as well go with O'Korn if that's what you're going to get out of Speight. Speight has been horrible. High, behind, or wide on all his throws, he's thrown like four or five pick 6's since the Ohio State game- he's thrown more INT's than TD's since the Iowa game- his completion percentage has been horrible- he holds onto the ball too long and can't read defenses quick enough. There really was no reason to keep playing him after that Florida game. I don't know why they did.
-
@kylebaustin
Since 2008, MSU's against the spread record vs. Michigan: 9-0
ATS record vs. everyone else: 53-57-3
-
@kylebaustin
Since 2008, MSU's against the spread record vs. Michigan: 9-0
ATS record vs. everyone else: 53-57-3
That + a spread that feels heavy for Michigan makes it feel like a no-brainer bet for the dog. But most times I think there is a no brainer bet I end up empty handed.
-
That + a spread that feels heavy for Michigan makes it feel like a no-brainer bet for the dog. But most times I think there is a no brainer bet I end up empty handed.
I saw it moved from like 14 to 10.5.
I thought Michigan was going to take out 8 years of frustrations last year, and they really didn't.
Night game though, I don't know. I think MSU sticks around for a half with both offenses struggling to get any traction, but Michigan moves it a little, and MSU has too many 3rd and longs leading to quick 3 and outs or bad turnovers, and UM pulls away in the 2nd half. I think the Wolverines cover.
-
I saw it moved from like 14 to 10.5.
I thought Michigan was going to take out 8 years of frustrations last year, and they really didn't.
Night game though, I don't know. I think MSU sticks around for a half with both offenses struggling to get any traction, but Michigan moves it a little, and MSU has too many 3rd and longs leading to quick 3 and outs or bad turnovers, and UM pulls away in the 2nd half. I think the Wolverines cover.
Your thoughts above more or less mirrored the Purdue game for Michigan. My fear is the Spartan defense is heads and tails better than Purdue.
I would guess a very close game for at least a half and first one to 20 wins. I suppose it could end up with a cover and be a 24-13 type game, but still feel close throughout. I just don't see Michigan putting up too many points against the Spartan defense, unless they get a score or two that come in unconventional ways (defense, special teams, etc.)
-
Your thoughts above more or less mirrored the Purdue game for Michigan. My fear is the Spartan defense is heads and tails better than Purdue.
I would guess a very close game for at least a half and first one to 20 wins. I suppose it could end up with a cover and be a 24-13 type game, but still feel close throughout. I just don't see Michigan putting up too many points against the Spartan defense, unless they get a score or two that come in unconventional ways (defense, special teams, etc.)
I posted in a different thread, that's kind of been Michigan's season, but yes, Purdue was the best example.
UM is barely outscoring it's opponents in the first half, 46-38.
In the second half, UM with a big 80-14 edge, including 43-0 in the 4th quarter
-
I saw it moved from like 14 to 10.5.
I thought Michigan was going to take out 8 years of frustrations last year, and they really didn't.
Night game though, I don't know. I think MSU sticks around for a half with both offenses struggling to get any traction, but Michigan moves it a little, and MSU has too many 3rd and longs leading to quick 3 and outs or bad turnovers, and UM pulls away in the 2nd half. I think the Wolverines cover.
I don't think Michigan is good enough and MSU is bad enough for any frustrations to be taken out. I could see Michigan covering in one of those games where its relatively close for 2.5/3 quarters but a couple plays are made and the score ends up not being indicative of the overall closeness.
-
I don't think Michigan is good enough and MSU is bad enough for any frustrations to be taken out. I could see Michigan covering in one of those games where its relatively close for 2.5/3 quarters but a couple plays are made and the score ends up not being indicative of the overall closeness.
That's kind of me, but I think it goes both ways.
I think it's deceptively close for 3 quarters, but one of those where it never feels like MSU is going to mount enough of a threat to really win, even if the score is actually close.
Then I think late UM tacks on a TD or two so those who didn't watch don't realize how close it was for 3 quarters.
So exactly the Purdue game.
-
Thanks to the increased power of the television executives, we now have what both schools have been fighting against, ever since Big Ten night games became a thing, a Paul Bunyan night game. The crazy trajectories of these programs has made this a top 5 MSU against a sub .500 UM in 2014; a battle of two top 15 teams in 2015; and a top 5 UM against a sub .500 MSU in 2016. It seems like Michigan is a bit worse than a year ago, and Michigan State is somewhat better. How much better? You'd think this would go a long way toward telling us, but perhaps not. The Spartans, in all forms, have had a way of getting up for this game. Even last year in what should have been a romp, was not. Michigan fans' frustration with Wilton Speight had been well documented. When he was knocked out in the Purdue game, and John O'Korn came in and jump started the offense, they wondered if an injury to their starting quarterback may have saved their season. That remains to be seen. He wouldn't be the first injury replacement to look really good until a team has time to prepare for him. Last year Speight was the best player on Michigan's offense in the win, with the Spartans shutting down the run, save for a couple Eddie McDoom jet sweeps. That was peak Speight, in the middle of three straight games with an Opponent Adjusted QBR over 93. The problem is that in the six games since his best is 67, and that was the only game he was over 50 (average). O'Korn showed good accuracy against Purdue, working on probably a limited playbook. The bye week was well times for him though, and now he's had two weeks to prepare. It's doubtful that same gameplan can work again. No matter who the personnel is, Mark Dantonio's defense is going to stack the line, and be aggressive. The teams that can offer protection, and beat them over the top, or avoid the pressure and exploit broken plays are the ones who beat them. We saw Iowa try a conservative approach last week, and they got nothing. I'm not convinced Michigan's offense is any better than Iowa's, so I think a similar plan will go similarly. This could be an old fashioned Big Ten game with 30-45 minutes spent with each team establishing themselves. Both defenses are good, and are built from the front back. Not ideal for what Dantonio wants to do, if you have the weapons to stretch it, as Notre Dame did. Michigan's line has not looked good, so the question is how much pressure Michigan State can get with four. Michigan State's offensive line has been awful up the middle, particularly in run blocking, but the pass blocking, particularly on the edge, has been solid. But they haven't faced anything like this Michigan front four. I think Michigan hits enough big plays, and eventually too many three and outs wear down the Spartan defense, and there's no way they avoid their turnover turmoil a second straight week.
MICHIGAN 28, MICHIGAN STATE 13
-
my hope is that since they refuse to really use DPJ on offense that they will allow him to return kicks as well as punts. He's a far superior return guy than Dylan Crawford- who has been handling the kick return duty while DPJ handles punt return. Hell DPJ is a far superior player period than Dylan Crawford. Eye test is important to me. If you don't jump off my screen- I've got no use for you. DPJ jumps off the screen. Doesn't take a genius to see he's a special type of athlete. Apparently his coaches are blind as a bat because they aren't USING him enough.
-
I haven't seen a lot of him, to be honest. But why would they hold him back? Is he good with ball security, in practice too?
That would be the top reason to keep him off the field based on what I know coaches do.
-
I haven't seen a lot of him, to be honest. But why would they hold him back? Is he good with ball security, in practice too?
That would be the top reason to keep him off the field based on what I know coaches do.
Hasn't gotten the ball a lot but ball security doesn't seem to be an issue. Coaches make bad personnel decisions all of the time, so who really knows?
This staff seems to be VERY conservative when it comes to starting young players. And they seem to put an emphasis on WR's who block. Which is fine- to a point. But there's no way anyone will ever be able to convince me that Grant Perry playing more minutes in the slot than Eddie McDoom or Dylan Crawford returning kicks and playing more minutes outside at WR than DPJ is a good idea. Put the ball in the hands of the athlete and let them go. Eddie McDoom and DPJ are just flat out explosive. They need the ball in their hands in a lot of different ways and both of them have barely touched the ball this year.
-
It's got to be a practice thing then. Try some digging in your favorite spots/sites and see what comes up.
-
It's got to be a practice thing then. Try some digging in your favorite spots/sites and see what comes up.
For his rep as a "mad man"- Harbaugh is actually a pretty damn conservative coach. Way too conservative in my opinion. It kind of holds him back. I really think it's just a case of his old school "if it's close give it to the older guy" and "practice matters most" mentality. He might be an oddball- but he's still a throwback old school football coach.
DPJ has only fielded 10 punt returns and he's averaging 16.2 yards per punt return and housed one for 78 yards for a TD and came awfully close to breaking another. He's had one rush on a reverse for 44 yards and he's only been targeted for 3 passes and he's caught all 3, one of them a screen going for 37 yards. He's only touched the ball 14 times and he's got three plays of 35 or more yards. Yeah, he needs the ball. More. A lot more.
What's really confusing to me though is the complete lack of Eddie McDoom sightings. He was more of a project coming out of high school that just happened to be a ridiculously fast athlete and not a great refined receiver- so that one makes a little bit more sense- but man he needs to be touching the football.
They have 3 WR's on this roster who just leap off the screen in DPJ, McDoom, and Tarik Black. Black's out with an injury and DPJ and McDoom barely get any minutes. Most of those minutes are going to Crawford, Grant Perry, and a walk-on named Nate Schoenle. Makes a lot of sense why the passing game has been struggling.
-
Heh. The rep as being a madman does not come from his coaching style. Look who the guy grew up under. Bo, Ditka, etc. Old school. So of course he's gonna be old school as a coach. It's the tree climbing and sleepover crap that madman comes from.
Like I said, it's gotta be a practice thing where these kids just don't know the playbook and such. Sometimes the high * kids don't put in the effort in the same way. I'm going to give Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt here because I think he's a good coach with a good staff.
-
Michigan 19
MSU 17
-
Sup y'all. Go Green.
-
The game reminded me a lot of the 2007 OSU-UM game, where OSU just ran Beanie Wells the whole game with no thoughts toward anything else, because UM's offense couldn't get anything going.
-
MSU grabbed the lead before the weather was a factor.Always a good idea to jump out to an early lead.MD made this a priority IMO.Tough loss to UM I think MD was preparing harder than M specially with all the attrition in the program.JH had a week off to prepare could be tough sledding from here on out - we shall see
-
It was a frigging shitshow last night, by Michigan combined with the refs and the weather (neither of which ended up really mattering but didn't help). This year was never going to be special, but the regression on offense has been frustrating to watch, and the defense got burned last night. I was afraid that OKorn wouldn't play like he did against Purdue, and that's what happened.
-
O'Korn is what he is. He is not going to get better. Time to move on and play some kids. Screw it.
Great win for Sparty though. I have a feeling they will do this act again this season.
-
OKorn should have taken off running especially after the storm moved in.Seemed he was trying too hard to set up & pass when it wasn't there.He'll have to run if M is to have any chance in HV
-
This was the one game that was on where I was that I did get to manage to see last night. MSU was sure trying to find ways to keep UM around and with a chance. Those two penalties late were beyond boneheaded.
-
It was a frigging shitshow last night, by Michigan combined with the refs and the weather (neither of which ended up really mattering but didn't help). This year was never going to be special, but the regression on offense has been frustrating to watch, and the defense got burned last night. I was afraid that OKorn wouldn't play like he did against Purdue, and that's what happened.
Refs. Lol.
-
This was the one game that was on where I was that I did get to manage to see last night. MSU was sure trying to find ways to keep UM around and with a chance. Those two penalties late were beyond boneheaded.
Other than the drive that was converted, I believe post all other turnovers MSU took a costly penalty.
I missed the botched punt return that ultimately led to UMs lone touchdown. Other than that, the only major execution error by MSU was that dropped wide open pass by Jackson. He holds on and I think we add another 7 before half and it's never even close to being in doubt.
-
Refs. Lol.
The flag on MSU for O'Korn pulling a pratfall was especially comical
-
That was Hall of Fame deking. Lonnie Smith must've thrown that flag.
-
The flag on MSU for O'Korn pulling a pratfall was especially comical
I absolutely did not lol when that happened. In fact it was the opposite. My reaction drew the ol wife flag for unsportsmanlike conduct
-
These Michigan Messageboard Meltdowns are really picking up some serious steam again.
Their fanbase was getting a little numb to it all during the Hoke/RichRod years.
-
Refs. Lol.
O' Korn just flipped again to draw a phantom penalty.
He brings two things to the table. Bad picks and bad flops
-
These Michigan Messageboard Meltdowns are really picking up some serious steam again.
Their fanbase was getting a little numb to it all during the Hoke/RichRod years.
The best part was all of the "MSU only beats us when we are down BS" from a fan base excited over a bunch of home wins over a mid major pre 1950 and beating exclusively bad MSU teams.
UM still hasn't beaten an MSU team with fewer than SIX losses since beating an 8-5 JLS team in 2003. But yeah, we need a down UM...LOL
-
Someone should let Braylon know what happened while he was drunk, pissing away his talent
http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2017/10/05/braylon-edwards-takes-little-brother-jab-at-michigan-state-photo/
-
https://twitter.com/Phil_Lewis_/status/916876608874704897?s=09
-
Michigan's OL is the underlying fundamental problem to all of Michigan's woes on offense. Benching Ulizio at the half and putting JBB in at RT gave me some hope. O'Korn, like Speight but to a lesser extent, seems to be playing scared and runs out of the pocket prematurely for some reason...as if he's afraid for his life. O'Korn and wet footballs are a bad combination. Michigan's WRs are not getting the job done; they would have been better off just putting a couple more clueless O linemen out there in the down pour and running the damn ball. Higdon ran the ball the best...why wasn't he out there the whole second half? Isaac's fumble do to the strip was preventable and trying to run Evans inside over and over was baffling. Anyway, Michigan's defense is good but the offense has to score points to win games. Right now I don't see that happening very much against the better Big Ten teams. This spanking at the hands of Sparty at home on prime time might be just what this team needed.
-
LSJ not holding back
MSU's latest win over Michigan sets the record straight about Dantonio, Harbaugh
ANN ARBOR – Let me tell you what the savior of a college football program actually looks like.
He turns an embattled program into a national player. He takes his school to heights it never dreamed it could reach. And when his program falls down hard on his watch, just as his world seems to be crumbling, he takes the youngest team he’s ever coached into his arch-rival’s house and reminds us that he still owns them.
“We’ve done it eight times,” Michigan State coach Mark Dantonio said after Saturday night’s 14-10 win at Michigan. “So I don’t know why there’s a lot of doubt.”
Dantonio is a program savior. At Michigan, Jim Harbaugh is not.
If you don’t see it now, it’s a symptom of these times. We all live in our bubbles, retreat to our corners and only hear what reinforces our beliefs. Some believe Harbaugh is superior to all other nouns.
Ever since he took over at Michigan in December of 2014, we’ve heard he was cut from a different cloth, didn’t bleed like the rest of us, saw the game on a higher plane.
And that Dantonio’s reign over this rivalry would soon meet its rightful demise. It was a fluke. A matter of good coaching, sure, but mostly good timing. Michigan had, by no fault of its own, hired two coaches who weren’t the right fit, Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke, opening the door for Dantonio’s little engine that could.
With Harbaugh in Ann Arbor, Dantonio’s six wins in seven years would simply go down as a cute and brief stretch in the rivalry’s mostly one-sided history.
Except now it’s eight wins in the last 10 years. It’s four wins in five meetings at Michigan Stadium, which is incredible if you think about what this rivalry once looked like. It’s twice in three seasons against Harbaugh.
“I’m not going to say anything like (Mike) Hart said,” MSU quarterback Brian Lewerke said Saturday night, responding to a question about Hart’s “little brother” comment in 2007. “Coach D has done a great job of playing against these guys. He’s definitely had their number.”
He did again Saturday, beating Michigan as a double-digit underdog for the first time. The Wolverines were ranked No. 7, a College Football Playoff hopeful, in their third season with the Quarterback Whisperer as their coach. Dantonio, considered an offensive dolt compared to Harbaugh, beat Michigan Saturday in large part because he had a better quarterback — a young kid, a redshirt sophomore, Lewerke
Dantonio is 8-3 against Michigan. Harbaugh is 1-2 against the Spartans and 0-2 against Ohio State — his two rivals. Whatever the Buckeyes are to MSU, Dantonio is 3-5 against them. Harbaugh took over a program that brought in top 10 recruiting classes twice in the three years before he arrived. He didn’t take over some misfit outpost. Dantonio did that.
A decade later, perhaps we can finally see it. All of us. Not just those who view life through a green-and-white prism — all of us who watched what transpired Saturday. All of us who’ve seen this rivalry play out since 2007, Dantonio’s first season, and since 2014, when Harbaugh became his adversary.
Harbaugh is a fine coach. He did wonders for the NFL’s San Francisco 49ers and did the impossible for Stanford. At Stanford, he’s a program changer, if not savior. At Michigan, he’s the latest guy who can’t figure out how to beat the Spartans or Buckeyes.
Dantonio might have the stronger team this year. Certainly a more well-rounded one than the Wolverines. We couldn’t see it until we saw these teams on the same field. Then it was clear.
As was this: Dantonio is the standard in this state, brother.
-
Harbaugh has his work cut out for him, if he wants to keep the streak of third place B1G East finishes intact.
-
He is kinda taking a beating in the media today. All of the twitters and antics are coming back to haunt him because the mediots are using it to poke at him for a lack of results and such.
I wish Twitter would not exist. Especially in a certain house that is white.
-
It's interesting. IIRC, Harbaugh and the former AD were at odds, which is why Hoke was hired last time around. I think I remember hearing that Jim just rubbed people the wrong way a lot of times. So I don't think it is surprising that this kind of situation has emerged.
Reminds me of the quote from Bull Durham.
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob. "
-
Michigan's OL is the underlying fundamental problem to all of Michigan's woes on offense. Benching Ulizio at the half and putting JBB in at RT gave me some hope. O'Korn, like Speight but to a lesser extent, seems to be playing scared and runs out of the pocket prematurely for some reason...as if he's afraid for his life. O'Korn and wet footballs are a bad combination. Michigan's WRs are not getting the job done; they would have been better off just putting a couple more clueless O linemen out there in the down pour and running the damn ball. Higdon ran the ball the best...why wasn't he out there the whole second half? Isaac's fumble do to the strip was preventable and trying to run Evans inside over and over was baffling. Anyway, Michigan's defense is good but the offense has to score points to win games. Right now I don't see that happening very much against the better Big Ten teams. This spanking at the hands of Sparty at home on prime time might be just what this team needed.
why wasn't Higdon out there more? Because he cannot pass protect. At all. His hold negated an excellent TD pass by O'Korn and an excellent route by Crawford where he smoked the MSU DB and get wide open. Higdon is a small guy, but so was Mike Hart and he was excellent at protecting the QB. Hell two of the greatest RB's ever -Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith were of smaller stature- and they were expert at going low and taking out the legs of incoming pass rushers. Size isn't an excuse.
-
It's interesting. IIRC, Harbaugh and the former AD were at odds, which is why Hoke was hired last time around. I think I remember hearing that Jim just rubbed people the wrong way a lot of times. So I don't think it is surprising that this kind of situation has emerged.
Reminds me of the quote from Bull Durham.
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob. "
Classic line in a movie full of 'em. Well done there sir.
-
He is kinda taking a beating in the media today. All of the twitters and antics are coming back to haunt him because the mediots are using it to poke at him for a lack of results and such.
I wish Twitter would not exist. Especially in a certain house that is white.
what media? I haven't seen it. That Lansing State Journal article was complete horse shit, but you'd expect nothing less from a publication like that. I hardly count that as "media"- who outside of a bunch of Michigan State nutjobs even read that?
Harbaugh is doing the best with what he has. Hoke with the 2015, 2016, or 2017 teams roster and they probably win 6-7 games a year. They've had an elite defense the last two years under Harbaugh, but they will not get over that hump until they fix the offensive line talent and the offensive coaching.
Michigan's OL is bad. Like really, really bad. There is a complete dearth of tackles. Grant Newsome won the job at LT as a RS Frosh and did so well they moved Mason Cole to the interior where he is a more natural fit. How many elite OL's start LT's that are 6'4, 300? Not many. Usually tackles that size are freakish athletes. That's not Mason Cole. Cole is a really solid player, but against the longer, quicker DE's he struggles. Newsome was looking like a guy that could one day be a 1st round pick- great athleticism in a 6'7, 318 pound frame. And then he literally nearly lost his leg because of a low hit to the knee by a Wisconsin defender. Who knows if he'll ever be able to play football again? 4* OT commit Devery Hamilton switched to Stanford at the last minute in 2016. He's the back-up LT at Stanford as a rs frosh. He's the starting RT at Michigan if he's there now. Harbaugh dismissed LTT- if all he cared about is winning he'd have never done that. LTT is a starter at LT or RT this year if he's on the team. You just can't lose 3 quality tackles like that and expect to field the kind of OL that Harbaugh wants to.
There are only 3 tackles left on Michigan's roster that aren't true freshmen. SR Mason Cole, RS Jr Juwann Bushell Beatty, and RS Soph. Nolan Ulizio. Ulizio got benched and Juwan Bushell Beatty hasn't played much better. Mason Cole is playing out of his natural position.
OT's JaRaymond Hall, Andrew Steuber, Joel Honigford, Chuck Filiaga, and James Hudson - all true frosh. Filiaga is probably the only one of that bunch physically ready to play, the others all need physical development. LT or RT isn't a position you really want to play a true freshman. So far all of them have been slated for a redshirt. If the piss poor play of Beatty and Ulizio continue- they have to try something to shake up that OL. Either play true frosh Cesar Ruiz at LG and move Bredeson to RT or burn Filiaga's redshirt and play him at RT. Ruiz' redshirt has already been burned- so it might make more sense to play him at LG and move Bredeson to RT. Ulizio and Beatty are not startable tackles- both have been getting whooped.
Harbaugh should hand the reins over Brandon Peters. O'Korn panics in the pocket too much and this is his last year here. Speight broke 3 vertebrae in his back- and he broke his collarbone last year and he had two major shoulder injuries in HS- which probably explains his velocity on the ball- or lack of velocity I should say. Bc for a 6'6, 240 pound kid he sure does have a pretty weak arm. Usually kids that size throw it with some real heat. I kinda doubt Speight's back next year or ever plays football again to be honest. Might as well groom Peters now so he can go into 2018 with some real experience.
-
He came out today and said O'Korn would start. I don't get it but he's the one in the room with the kids.
As for the media.. There's quite a bit out there.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/michigan-state-at-michigan-score-spartans-upset-is-harbaugh-latest-rivalry-loss/
Harbs can do all the fully-clothed cannonballs he wants. He can conduct as many spring practices in Rome as the Pope can stand. He can troll his coaching peers on Twitter. Sooner or later, the fans will start to demand Harbaugh clear those hurdles.
I thought that was kinda funny.
But hey, it could be worse for you MDot. You could have pee wee rowing your boat or something.
-
After 31 games as Michigan coach:
Harbaugh: 24-7; 1-4 in rivalry games (1-2 vs MSU, 0-2 vs OSU)
Hoke: 24-7; 4-3 in rivalry games (1-1 vs both MSU and OSU, 2-1 vs ND)
http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2017/10/08/jim-harbaugh-rivalry-offensive-rankings/744115001/
Michigan is now 1-4 during Harbaugh's first five meetings against rivals Michigan State and Ohio State. Brady Hoke, a man who was fired for, in part, his inability to beat MSU and OSU, was 2-2 in his first two seasons. Harbaugh is 24-7 through 31 games, same as Hoke.
-
He came out today and said O'Korn would start. I don't get it but he's the one in the room with the kids.
As for the media.. There's quite a bit out there.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/michigan-state-at-michigan-score-spartans-upset-is-harbaugh-latest-rivalry-loss/
Harbs can do all the fully-clothed cannonballs he wants. He can conduct as many spring practices in Rome as the Pope can stand. He can troll his coaching peers on Twitter. Sooner or later, the fans will start to demand Harbaugh clear those hurdles.
I thought that was kinda funny.
But hey, it could be worse for you MDot. You could have pee wee rowing your boat or something.
could have Brady Hoke losing to Rutgers and getting blown out by any team with a pulse. People are idiots. They over react to the moment and ignore the details.
Harbaugh/Drevno offense is completely predicated on talent. Why? Because they don't get off-tendency, they aren't innovative- they are vanilla as F***. Which works great if you're stacked with talent. Not so great when you're not.
This same offense with Grant Newsome at LT, Mason Cole on the interior instead of at LT, and Logan Tulley-Tilman at RT and say Harbaugh landed himself a QB like Rosen that first recruiting class and a RB like Najee Harris in last years class- would look a whole lot better.
My biggest gripe with the offensive coaching staff is they don't have that kind of talent- and they game-plan like they do. When you're this short handed- you've got to be creative. Not just creative, but extremely creative.
-
Who is ultimately in charge of the offense? Is it Jim, Drevno or Jay or even Pep?
-
Yeah, it's not just the LSJ article, the entire postgame takeaway is "what exactly has Harbaugh done to earn his rep?"
He took over a program in FAR, FAR, FAR better shape than Dantonio at MSU or Franklin at PSU, and I can't say his program is any farther ahead than either of those at that point. And if you compare him to hires at helmet schools, with every advantage in the book, it's even worse
Another national writer:
Think about this, Harbaugh is now in his third year at Michigan and his team is just 1-4 against top rivals Michigan State and Ohio State and has never finished a season better than tied for third in the Big Ten East. Given that Michigan still has road games at Wisconsin and at Penn State and a home game against Ohio State, there is a very good chance the Wolverines finish year three under Jim Harbaugh at 8-4.
Here are what some other top coaches did in year two or three at their respective schools: Nick Saban went 26-1 in years two and three at Alabama, notching a national championship in year three. Urban Meyer won national titles in year two at Florida and year three at Ohio State and has come in first or tied for first all five years at Ohio State. James Franklin won the Big Ten in year three at Penn State and won nine games in years two and three at freaking Vanderbilt. Chris Petersen won the Pac 12 in year three at Washington. Jimbo Fisher won the ACC in year three and Dabo Swinney won his division in year three at Clemson.
Putting Jim Harbaugh in the same category with these coaches right now is, frankly, absurd.
Harbaugh has gotten a ton of attention for his off field shenanigans, but he has hasn’t won anything and his failure to find a decent quarterback in three years is entirely his own fault, given the fact that he came to Michigan with the reputation of an offensive guru.
Harbaugh is now 5-4 in his last nine games with the Wolverines. Nick Saban has lost four games in his past four seasons and Urban has only lost four games in his past three seasons.
Right now Jim Harbaugh is the fourth best coach in his own division. Maybe that changes in year four, but in his third year at Michigan Harbaugh is the most overrated coach in college football.
-
Or from a UM blogger
Last night was a turning point. It happens in all our lives. Whether it be at work (when you realize you need to make a change) or in your personal life (when you finally accept that no matter how hard you try, your marriage is irreparably broken).
I tried to convince myself that Harbaugh was our savior. Our savant. I was fooled by his looks. By his talk. By the aura of the prodigal son returning home to deliver us what his father figure, never could: a National Title.
But, alas, all that was an illusion. A mirage. Jim Harbaugh has always proven to be an extremely stubborn, flawed football coach. A good coach? Certainly. The best Michigan can do? Yes.
But a savior? A savant? Elite? No. That question has been answered.
We all want our children to be the best. The reality is that they aren’t always going to be......
Jimmy is our son, and I’ll always love him.
But I know who he is now. We ALL do.
So let’s accept that. And MOVE ON. Every now and then we will have a season like last year. Where we are allowed to dare to DREAM. But those will be few and far between.
We are who we are. A program that dreams of being the leaders and best.
But the reality says that we are merely good.
Like Jimmy. Just good. And sometimes, good, is the best we can get.
-
So the last guy thinks that Michigan can't do any better, but should move on from him anyway?
That doesn't seem to be very well thought out.
-
So the last guy thinks that Michigan can't do any better, but should move on from him anyway?
That doesn't seem to be very well thought out.
I don't think he's saying that at all. I think he's saying he's a good coach, but no savior, certainly has done nothing to prove he belongs among the elite, but that maybe Michigan is a good program with a good coach. Nothing more, nothing less.
I think that's where I am too. At best right now he's the 4th best coach in the division. Nationally, maybe a top 10 coach, but I wouldn't put him there. He's an upgrade over RR or Hoke. I don't think UM fans should be unhappy at all. But I don't see any kind of savior. I just think Michigan has a good coach. And maybe that's ok, because we've seen basically every major program except OSU see that you can do a whole lot worse.
-
.....and people are freakin' overreacting idiots.
Do I have to remind everybody out there that at the beginning of the season we were all saying (or at least the reasonable ones......) that this is a very young Michigan team that is going to take a small step back from last year?
Most mediots were predicting an 8-4 or 9-3 (at best) year. They were pointing to next year being the year that Michigan was going to truly have a chance to make some noise. I think the strong victory over Florida and the dominant defensive performance of the first few games kinda set expectations a little too high a little early.
If he goes 0-fer against MSU, OSU, and PSU next year, then maybe we can have this conversation. Until then, it's waaaaaaaaay premature.
-
I think what has them riled up, is that for whatever personnel losses they had, they paled vastly compared to what MSU had, even before all of the offseason defections.
MSU was returning 5 starters total, and I think only starts 1 senior this year. So I think if UM went 9-3, and lost to UW, OSU and PSU, nobody would have said anything. But they lost again to a team they view as Little Brother, he has a dismal record against MSU/OSU, and this was an MSU team in far worse shape than his own, and he had them at home.
And I don't think anyone was predicting 8-4. I think 8-4 was the floor if they lost every "losable" game, that got moved to 9-3 when they beat Florida.
-
Yeah, that's a good point.
Losing to MSU at home after a bye week is obviously not where they want to be.
-
Gotta snicker at Dantonio saying he saw 40 formations from Michigan in the first half alone. Good thing all of Michigan's starting freshmen and new starters are Rhodes scholars with photographic memories.
-
Gotta snicker at Dantonio saying he saw 40 formations from Michigan in the first half alone. Good thing all of Michigan's starting freshmen and new starters are Rhodes scholars with photographic memories.
WTKA was discussing it yesterday, Nick Baumgardner saying it was true, and that maybe that was part of the problem with the offense, that Michigan is trying to show their opponent so many different looks, to force them to prepare for so many different things, that they themselves wind up preparing so many different looks, that they have nothing they do actually well, because when they need to go to the well, they have nothing they know they can just rely on, they are too busy trying to be too cute and show too many different things.
So you might want to snicker at the UM media saying the exact same things, because Baumgardner and Michael Spath both echoed exactly what Dantonio was saying.
And hyperbole isn't necessarily a Rhodes scholar type vocab word.
-
I agree that Michigan is putting too much out there for a young team. Not knocking Dantonio rather hoping Michigan's coaching staff can take the hint. Michigan needs to simplify the play book and teach fundamentals. And first and foremost, fix the OL.
-
I think the playbook is too big, and they aren't catering it to the players. They were moving the ball well in 4-5 yard chunks on that first drive, then they threw back to back fade routes from a backup QB too young, undersized WRs. Had to settle for a FG? Why?
I think he still has too much NFL mentality in him that even the worst teams have a lot of really good players, and can beat you. In college, particularly at Michigan when you are just piling top ten classes on top of each other, sometimes you can just win by having more talent.
Harbaugh coached that game like he needed to win by outscheming, and he asked his players to do things they couldn't, particularly later in that weather.
-
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/6Hz-QqGDhAlrW9LW0iBgKiG4ZiE=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9420395/7fo02ix.png)
-
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/6Hz-QqGDhAlrW9LW0iBgKiG4ZiE=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9420395/7fo02ix.png)
He was one of the most average QB's that I've ever seen. And the truth is I'd freaking KILL for him to be the QB on this team. He rarely made the killer mistakes. He was efficient, knew what he could do and what he couldn't.
Speight is just bad. O'Korn goes from really good to spectacularly bad play to play. He's like flipping a coin- you never know what you're gonna get.
How sad is it that Rudock is the best QB that Michigan's had in like 10 years?
Michigan went on a run from Harbaugh to Henne where just about every QB that started more than 1 game got drafted by the NFL.
Even Henson- who would've been the #1 pick in 2002 had he not went off to play baseball for 3 1/2 years wound up being drafted in the 6th round by the Texans. Even Mallett who wound up starting a couple games as a true Frosh and then transferring wound up getting drafted. Grbac, Collins, Griese, Brady, Henson, Navarre, Henne- went on a nice run of stability at QB.
Ever since Lloyd retired just been a freaking mess. Nick Sheridan/Steve Threet- what a disaster. Tater Tot had potential but he flunked out of school. Denard was a RB playing QB. Gardner fell apart his senior year. Shane was never the 5* he was hyped up to be. Now they got Wilt the Stilt and O'Korn.
Rudock was BY FAR the best QB they've had since the Lloyd Carr era ended.
-
I think the playbook is too big, and they aren't catering it to the players. They were moving the ball well in 4-5 yard chunks on that first drive, then they threw back to back fade routes from a backup QB too young, undersized WRs. Had to settle for a FG? Why?
I think he still has too much NFL mentality in him that even the worst teams have a lot of really good players, and can beat you. In college, particularly at Michigan when you are just piling top ten classes on top of each other, sometimes you can just win by having more talent.
Harbaugh coached that game like he needed to win by outscheming, and he asked his players to do things they couldn't, particularly later in that weather.
They threw a fade route to a back-up TE and then to a 5'11 Eddie McDoom. That blew my mind. Both of those plays. You have DPJ who is 6'2 and literally has like a 47" vertical- he is a freak. Might wanna throw that to him instead of a 5'11 speedster. Or try 6'3 Moe Ways or 6'4 Drake Harris or 6'5 Nico Collins.
The biggest issues are the play-calling and the OL. Their RB's also kinda stink. Ty Isaac is still hurt- and ball security was always his #1 issue going back to USC. Which is why you saw more Karran Higdon. Who I am not a fan of. He is too small. I love Chris Evans but he goes down on first contact way too easily.
The main problem is the OL. And I just don't think it's fixable for this year. They are missing Grant Newsome and LTT in the worst way.
-
this season reminds me of OSU last year, and this game in particular reminds me a lot of OSU 2015. Sparty just knows how to win in a monsoon.
but last year OSU had arguably the best defense of my lifetime, 40 years old. but the offense could do absolutely nothing, when all you need is maybe 17-20 points per game. it's mind numbingly frustrating to watch that, week after week after week. teams with way less talent, or equal talent whatever somehow can score 25-30 points but your team that's got tons of 4 and 5 star talent can't. it's hard to explain.
but overall, every program goes through cycles, Michigan unfortunately has just been in a bad cycle for it's program, no big 10 titles since 2004 I think is pretty hard to imagine. the buckeyes had cooper, that was about 13 years with off the top of my head with only 1 or maybe 2 big 10 titles?
and winning the BIG is unquestionably tougher now, the conference has better coaches, you can't get a shared title anymore with the advent of the championship game, hell, urban's only won 1 big 10 title and he's never lost more than 1 big 10 game in a season. I think everyone just sees Alabama and Clemson doing it virtually every season and think their program is as good as that program, but it's probably not.
toss the fact that UM is in the same division as OSU, PSU and MSU, and that's pretty tough just to make it to Indy. Wisconsin on the other hand has a virtual cakewalk every year, but I digress......
UM will win BIG titles under harbaugh if he stays long enough, it just might take 4-5 years instead of the 2-3 years that Saban, B Stoops, J Tressel, U Meyer, were somehow able to pull off in just 2 years.
-
Their RB's also kinda stink.
This is a huge problem, if you think traditional UM teams, they pound you with the rock, play action pass with their quality QB's, run tons of screen passes to the RB's etc.
They gotta somehow figure out how to run the ball again, that will help alleviate a lot of the other issues.
-
It is something. How much hype have we heard about Michigan's tight ends, especially Bunting and Wheatley? But McKeon is clearly the go to guy at tight end for them. Really, McKeon and Perry are the only consistent guys for Michigan's offense.
-
and winning the BIG is unquestionably tougher now, the conference has better coaches, you can't get a shared title anymore with the advent of the championship game, hell, urban's only won 1 big 10 title and he's never lost more than 1 big 10 game in a season.
While technically true, the Divisional titles are easier to achieve than pre-CCG Big Ten Titles, as you are competing with fewer teams.
You still get a share of the Divisional Titles even if you don't win the tie-breaker that allows you to play in the CCG. So they really aren't all that hard to come by.
MSU and Wisconsin have each won 3, Penn St has won 2, Iowa and Nebraska have each won 1, and OSU has a streak that currently stands at 5.
Michigan has won zero. Frankly, they haven't even come close.
A second place finish in 2011 is their best showing. And they lost their division to MSU that year.
-
It is something. How much hype have we heard about Michigan's tight ends, especially Bunting and Wheatley? But McKeon is clearly the go to guy at tight end for them. Really, McKeon and Perry are the only consistent guys for Michigan's offense.
Bunting has disappeared off the face of the earth. They only bring Wheatley in to block- what good is he if they won't throw him a pass? When he's in defenses automatically know it's a run. I'd hardly say McKeon is consistent. Can't block and I am not a fan of McKeon. Still pissed at him for trying to be a hero and not going down. Clock stops on the 1st down. He didn't need to try and be a god damn hero only to get the ball stripped. Clock is ticking. He needs to get down and let O'Korn call a TO or hurry up and spike it to stop the clock.
Eye test tells me Gentry is the best TE they have. That kid is unusually fast for a 6'7, 240 pounder. He's a little raw as he's transitioning from QB to TE- but they need to just keep him on the field and let him learn. You only get good at football by playing football.
They rotate too many guys in and out on offense- and it's really stupid. Just play the best talents and let them grow. Can't never play a guy and then throw him out there here and there and expect him to produce. He's got to play to learn how to play.
Really Grant Perry is the only consistent player they have on offense and he's really not even that good. Tarik Black, McDoom, and DPJ are the best talents they have at WR. Black is hurt and McDoom and DPJ- neither of them are consistent at all. Very raw. They need to develop and fast.
-
Their RB's also kinda stink.
This is a huge problem, if you think traditional UM teams, they pound you with the rock, play action pass with their quality QB's, run tons of screen passes to the RB's etc.
They gotta somehow figure out how to run the ball again, that will help alleviate a lot of the other issues.
Ty Isaac needs space to run- he's got ball security issues- and he runs finesse for being 6'3, 230. Despite his great size, he's not a between the tackles runner and he doesn't run with power. Isaac would be a good back on a team that has a really good OL and spreads people out and runs out of the shotgun a lot. He's not a downhill I-formation, between the tackles runner. He's just not. He's a 6'3, 230 pound spread/scat back.
Karran Higdon is the best inside runner they have, but he's on the smaller side and he can't pass protect a lick. Can't keep him in the game if he can't block for the QB.
Chris Evans is being misused. He's not really a RB. He's more of an offensive weapon. Meyer would have a field day with that kid. Not sure Harbaugh knows how to use him. Evans should be getting looks on kick-off duty since DPJ has punts, and Evans should be lined up in the slot at WR, thrown bubble screens- just used in a variety of different ways. He's too slight to be an every down back- goes down in first contact way too easy. His greatness is in space- get that kid in space and he can make stuff happen. And his hands are so soft- he catches everything and runs really good pass routes.
-
You still get a share of the Divisional Titles even if you don't win the tie-breaker that allows you to play in the CCG. So they really aren't all that hard to come by.
yeah, but how many divisional titles are you hanging up at St John Arena? I'm not slighting that it's an accomplishment, but OSU went 7-1 two of the past 3 years and didn't play in Indy. In previous years we'd still consider ourselves a BIG 10 champ.
now? there's only 1 big 10 champ per year, and it's quite possible some year that might mean a 6-3 division winner knocks off 9-0 from another division.
I will say the current divisions is one of the greatest things that could of ever happened for Wisconsin football. they are in indy virtually every year, that's so much great TV exposure, for a school that's never been a high in the recruiting rankings type school, I gotta think that it's helped them some. if nothing else it's great for the fan base I would think. and at least in the interim, no real serious challengers on a year to year basis that's going to steal their west division crown.
-
Yeah, I'm not suggesting that a Divisional title is on par with a Conference Title. But it is a way to seperate the haves from the have nots.
If you are a helmet team, you don't want to find yourself in the zero camp. Especially when "little brother" has a plurality of them.
In the old days when two teams tied for the title, everyone knew that the real champion was the one that won the head to head.
Yet the loser of that game would quietly pass out the rings and hang up the banner anyway.
-
Yeah, I'm not suggesting that a Divisional title is on par with a Conference Title. But it is a way to seperate the haves from the have nots.
I guess I agree, but how much value is there in UF winning their SEC division the last few years, most people probably think they were a fringe top 20 team the past couple seasons.
I guess my point is you can be pretty average and have a conference division title next to your name.
you could easily argue the 2nd place team in a division, for instance the potential Penn St/OSU loser this year is significantly better than the winner of say a divisional winner from the ACC coastal or PAC 12 North (I think I have the divisions right there?)
-
Yeah, I'm not suggesting that a Divisional title is on par with a Conference Title. But it is a way to seperate the haves from the have nots.
I guess I agree, but how much value is there in UF winning their SEC division the last few years, most people probably think they were a fringe top 20 team the past couple seasons.
I guess my point is you can be pretty average and have a conference division title next to your name.
you could easily argue the 2nd place team in a division, for instance the potential Penn St/OSU loser this year is significantly better than the winner of say a divisional winner from the ACC coastal or PAC 12 North (I think I have the divisions right there?)
That's true, but it's a way to further differentiate between the 1 conference champion and the 13 non-champs, particularly among division rivals. Yes, people acknowledge that Florida's SEC East titles are less impressive than being 2nd in the West...but it's still better than Georgia's no SEC East titles the past two years.
I think over time simply making it to Indy will mean less and less. Hell, I was online the second MSU clinched in 2011, and didn't make it back in 2013 or 2015 (maybe i"m the curse). But I know that when OSU pulled out that win in Columbus last year, my Michigan family was plenty bummed about not getting to go to the CCG. I think it's new enough that simply making it still holds some weight.
-
Yeah, I'm not suggesting that a Divisional title is on par with a Conference Title. But it is a way to seperate the haves from the have nots.
I guess I agree, but how much value is there in UF winning their SEC division the last few years, most people probably think they were a fringe top 20 team the past couple seasons.
I guess my point is you can be pretty average and have a conference division title next to your name.
you could easily argue the 2nd place team in a division, for instance the potential Penn St/OSU loser this year is significantly better than the winner of say a divisional winner from the ACC coastal or PAC 12 North (I think I have the divisions right there?)
This is why it is REALLY hard to compare pre-CCG Championships to post-CCG anything:
- Championships is not a fair comparison because pre-CCG there were frequently multiple champions
- Division Championships is not a fair comparison because there are a LOT more post-CCG Division Championships than there were pre-CCG Championships
-
I think it's new enough that simply making it still holds some weight.
That's not how I felt last year. Sure, it's better than finishing #2 in the division, but seeing a loss rings hollow.
I'd much rather there be shared championships with the Rose Bowl in the balance for the most deserving (so long as it's truly that).
-
But I know that when OSU pulled out that win in Columbus last year, my Michigan family was plenty bummed about not getting to go to the CCG. I think it's new enough that simply making it still holds some weight.
I totally get that, I've been twice, loved it both times. maybe sitting inside watching football when it's freezing outside is the best selling point.
will it wear off? eventually probably, maybe ask Wisconsin fans, they've been there the most.
there's also trade off for most middle income families, go to Indy? go to a bowl game? go to a possible 2 playoff games? get's pretty expensive, and it's all around the holidays to boot
-
will it wear off? eventually probably, maybe ask Wisconsin fans, they've been there the most.
there's also trade off for most middle income families, go to Indy? go to a bowl game? go to a possible 2 playoff games? get's pretty expensive, and it's all around the holidays to boot
I enjoyed it last year, minus the outcome.
Agree on the tradeoff. I know that year when UNL and UW played, a lot of UNL fans stayed away because they already got their plans made for the Rose Bowl. UW fans stayed away because it was the 2nd in a row, the team was 7-5 and it finished 3rd* in the division.
-
According to ESPN this game had the highest viewer rating in the country last week.It has turned into quite the annual scrum - good stuff