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Topic: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame

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ELA

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2017, 10:43:01 AM »
LSJ not holding back

MSU's latest win over Michigan sets the record straight about Dantonio, Harbaugh

ANN ARBOR – Let me tell you what the savior of a college football program actually looks like.

He turns an embattled program into a national player. He takes his school to heights it never dreamed it could reach. And when his program falls down hard on his watch, just as his world seems to be crumbling, he takes the youngest team he’s ever coached into his arch-rival’s house and reminds us that he still owns them.

“We’ve done it eight times,” Michigan State coach Mark Dantonio said after Saturday night’s 14-10 win at Michigan. “So I don’t know why there’s a lot of doubt.”

Dantonio is a program savior. At Michigan, Jim Harbaugh is not.

If you don’t see it now, it’s a symptom of these times. We all live in our bubbles, retreat to our corners and only hear what reinforces our beliefs. Some believe Harbaugh is superior to all other nouns.

Ever since he took over at Michigan in December of 2014, we’ve heard he was cut from a different cloth, didn’t bleed like the rest of us, saw the game on a higher plane. 

And that Dantonio’s reign over this rivalry would soon meet its rightful demise. It was a fluke. A matter of good coaching, sure, but mostly good timing. Michigan had, by no fault of its own, hired two coaches who weren’t the right fit, Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke, opening the door for Dantonio’s little engine that could.

With Harbaugh in Ann Arbor, Dantonio’s six wins in seven years would simply go down as a cute and brief stretch in the rivalry’s mostly one-sided history. 

Except now it’s eight wins in the last 10 years. It’s four wins in five meetings at Michigan Stadium, which is incredible if you think about what this rivalry once looked like. It’s twice in three seasons against Harbaugh.

“I’m not going to say anything like (Mike) Hart said,” MSU quarterback Brian Lewerke said Saturday night, responding to a question about Hart’s “little brother” comment in 2007. “Coach D has done a great job of playing against these guys. He’s definitely had their number.”

He did again Saturday, beating Michigan as a double-digit underdog for the first time. The Wolverines were ranked No. 7, a College Football Playoff hopeful, in their third season with the Quarterback Whisperer as their coach. Dantonio, considered an offensive dolt compared to Harbaugh, beat Michigan Saturday in large part because he had a better quarterback — a young kid, a redshirt sophomore, Lewerke

Dantonio is 8-3 against Michigan. Harbaugh is 1-2 against the Spartans and 0-2 against Ohio State — his two rivals. Whatever the Buckeyes are to MSU, Dantonio is 3-5 against them. Harbaugh took over a program that brought in top 10 recruiting classes twice in the three years before he arrived. He didn’t take over some misfit outpost. Dantonio did that.

A decade later, perhaps we can finally see it. All of us. Not just those who view life through a green-and-white prism — all of us who watched what transpired Saturday. All of us who’ve seen this rivalry play out since 2007, Dantonio’s first season, and since 2014, when Harbaugh became his adversary.

Harbaugh is a fine coach. He did wonders for the NFL’s San Francisco 49ers and did the impossible for Stanford. At Stanford, he’s a program changer, if not savior. At Michigan, he’s the latest guy who can’t figure out how to beat the Spartans or Buckeyes. 

Dantonio might have the stronger team this year. Certainly a more well-rounded one than the Wolverines. We couldn’t see it until we saw these teams on the same field. Then it was clear. 

As was this: Dantonio is the standard in this state, brother.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2017, 11:02:30 AM »
Harbaugh has his work cut out for him, if he wants to keep the streak of third place B1G East finishes intact. 
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847badgerfan

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2017, 11:52:56 AM »
He is kinda taking a beating in the media today. All of the twitters and antics are coming back to haunt him because the mediots are using it to poke at him for a lack of results and such.

I wish Twitter would not exist. Especially in a certain house that is white.
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grillrat

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2017, 12:09:05 PM »
It's interesting.  IIRC, Harbaugh and the former AD were at odds, which is why Hoke was hired last time around.  I think I remember hearing that Jim just rubbed people the wrong way a lot of times.  So I don't think it is surprising that this kind of situation has emerged.

Reminds me of the quote from Bull Durham.
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob. "

Mdot21

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #60 on: October 09, 2017, 03:25:48 PM »
Michigan's OL is the underlying fundamental problem to all of Michigan's woes on offense.  Benching Ulizio at the half and putting JBB in at RT gave me some hope.  O'Korn, like Speight but to a lesser extent, seems to be playing scared and runs out of the pocket prematurely for some reason...as if he's afraid for his life.  O'Korn and wet footballs are a bad combination.  Michigan's WRs are not getting the job done; they would have been better off just putting a couple more clueless O linemen out there in the down pour and running the damn ball.  Higdon ran the ball the best...why wasn't he out there the whole second half?  Isaac's fumble do to the strip was preventable and trying to run Evans inside over and over was baffling.   Anyway, Michigan's defense is good but the offense has to score points to win games.  Right now I don't see that happening very much against the better Big Ten teams.  This spanking at the hands of Sparty at home on prime time might be just what this team needed.
why wasn't Higdon out there more? Because he cannot pass protect. At all. His hold negated an excellent TD pass by O'Korn and an excellent route by Crawford where he smoked the MSU DB and get wide open. Higdon is a small guy, but so was Mike Hart and he was excellent at protecting the QB. Hell two of the greatest RB's ever -Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith were of smaller stature- and they were expert at going low and taking out the legs of incoming pass rushers. Size isn't an excuse.

PSUinNC

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #61 on: October 09, 2017, 03:31:24 PM »
It's interesting.  IIRC, Harbaugh and the former AD were at odds, which is why Hoke was hired last time around.  I think I remember hearing that Jim just rubbed people the wrong way a lot of times.  So I don't think it is surprising that this kind of situation has emerged.

Reminds me of the quote from Bull Durham.
"Your shower shoes have fungus on them. You'll never make it to the bigs with fungus on your shower shoes. Think classy, you'll be classy. If you win 20 in the show, you can let the fungus grow back and the press'll think you're colorful. Until you win 20 in the show, however, it means you are a slob. "
Classic line in a movie full of 'em.  Well done there sir.  

Mdot21

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #62 on: October 09, 2017, 03:54:04 PM »
He is kinda taking a beating in the media today. All of the twitters and antics are coming back to haunt him because the mediots are using it to poke at him for a lack of results and such.

I wish Twitter would not exist. Especially in a certain house that is white.
what media? I haven't seen it. That Lansing State Journal article was complete horse shit, but you'd expect nothing less from a publication like that. I hardly count that as "media"- who outside of a bunch of Michigan State nutjobs even read that?

Harbaugh is doing the best with what he has. Hoke with the 2015, 2016, or 2017 teams roster and they probably win 6-7 games a year. They've had an elite defense the last two years under Harbaugh, but they will not get over that hump until they fix the offensive line talent and the offensive coaching.

Michigan's OL is bad. Like really, really bad. There is a complete dearth of tackles. Grant Newsome won the job at LT as a RS Frosh and did so well they moved Mason Cole to the interior where he is a more natural fit. How many elite OL's start LT's that are 6'4, 300?  Not many. Usually tackles that size are freakish athletes. That's not Mason Cole. Cole is a really solid player, but against the longer, quicker DE's he struggles. Newsome was looking like a guy that could one day be a 1st round pick- great athleticism in a 6'7, 318 pound frame. And then he literally nearly lost his leg because of a low hit to the knee by a Wisconsin defender. Who knows if he'll ever be able to play football again? 4* OT commit Devery Hamilton switched to Stanford at the last minute in 2016. He's the back-up LT at Stanford as a rs frosh. He's the starting RT at Michigan if he's there now. Harbaugh dismissed LTT- if all he cared about is winning he'd have never done that. LTT is a starter at LT or RT this year if he's on the team. You just can't lose 3 quality tackles like that and expect to field the kind of OL that Harbaugh wants to.

There are only 3 tackles left on Michigan's roster that aren't true freshmen. SR Mason Cole, RS Jr Juwann Bushell Beatty, and RS Soph. Nolan Ulizio. Ulizio got benched and Juwan Bushell Beatty hasn't played much better. Mason Cole is playing out of his natural position.
OT's JaRaymond Hall, Andrew Steuber, Joel Honigford, Chuck Filiaga, and James Hudson - all true frosh. Filiaga is probably the only one of that bunch physically ready to play, the others all need physical development. LT or RT isn't a position you really want to play a true freshman. So far all of them have been slated for a redshirt. If the piss poor play of Beatty and Ulizio continue- they have to try something to shake up that OL. Either play true frosh Cesar Ruiz at LG and move Bredeson to RT or burn Filiaga's redshirt and play him at RT. Ruiz' redshirt has already been burned- so it might make more sense to play him at LG and move Bredeson to RT. Ulizio and Beatty are not startable tackles- both have been getting whooped.

Harbaugh should hand the reins over Brandon Peters. O'Korn panics in the pocket too much and this is his last year here. Speight broke 3 vertebrae in his back- and he broke his collarbone last year and he had two major shoulder injuries in HS- which probably explains his velocity on the ball- or lack of velocity I should say. Bc for a 6'6, 240 pound kid he sure does have a pretty weak arm. Usually kids that size throw it with some real heat. I kinda doubt Speight's back next year or ever plays football again to be honest. Might as well groom Peters now so he can go into 2018 with some real experience.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 03:58:46 PM by Mdot21 »

847badgerfan

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #63 on: October 09, 2017, 04:01:39 PM »
He came out today and said O'Korn would start. I don't get it but he's the one in the room with the kids.

As for the media.. There's quite a bit out there.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/michigan-state-at-michigan-score-spartans-upset-is-harbaugh-latest-rivalry-loss/


Harbs can do all the fully-clothed cannonballs he wants. He can conduct as many spring practices in Rome as the Pope can stand. He can troll his coaching peers on Twitter. Sooner or later, the fans will start to demand Harbaugh clear those hurdles.

I thought that was kinda funny.

But hey, it could be worse for you MDot. You could have pee wee rowing your boat or something.

U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #64 on: October 09, 2017, 04:03:34 PM »
After 31 games as Michigan coach:

Harbaugh: 24-7; 1-4 in rivalry games (1-2 vs MSU, 0-2 vs OSU)

Hoke: 24-7; 4-3 in rivalry games (1-1 vs both MSU and OSU, 2-1 vs ND) 

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2017/10/08/jim-harbaugh-rivalry-offensive-rankings/744115001/

Michigan is now 1-4 during Harbaugh's first five meetings against rivals Michigan State and Ohio State. Brady Hoke, a man who was fired for, in part, his inability to beat MSU and OSU, was 2-2 in his first two seasons. Harbaugh is 24-7 through 31 games, same as Hoke. 
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Mdot21

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #65 on: October 09, 2017, 04:12:11 PM »
He came out today and said O'Korn would start. I don't get it but he's the one in the room with the kids.

As for the media.. There's quite a bit out there.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/michigan-state-at-michigan-score-spartans-upset-is-harbaugh-latest-rivalry-loss/


Harbs can do all the fully-clothed cannonballs he wants. He can conduct as many spring practices in Rome as the Pope can stand. He can troll his coaching peers on Twitter. Sooner or later, the fans will start to demand Harbaugh clear those hurdles.

I thought that was kinda funny.

But hey, it could be worse for you MDot. You could have pee wee rowing your boat or something.
could have Brady Hoke losing to Rutgers and getting blown out by any team with a pulse. People are idiots. They over react to the moment and ignore the details.

Harbaugh/Drevno offense is completely predicated on talent. Why? Because they don't get off-tendency, they aren't innovative- they are vanilla as F***. Which works great if you're stacked with talent. Not so great when you're not.

This same offense with Grant Newsome at LT, Mason Cole on the interior instead of at LT, and Logan Tulley-Tilman at RT and say Harbaugh landed himself a QB like Rosen that first recruiting class and a RB like Najee Harris in last years class- would look a whole lot better.

My biggest gripe with the offensive coaching staff is they don't have that kind of talent- and they game-plan like they do. When you're this short handed- you've got to be creative. Not just creative, but extremely creative.

847badgerfan

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2017, 04:22:26 PM »
Who is ultimately in charge of the offense? Is it Jim, Drevno or Jay or even Pep?
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ELA

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2017, 05:03:00 PM »
Yeah, it's not just the LSJ article, the entire postgame takeaway is "what exactly has Harbaugh done to earn his rep?"

He took over a program in FAR, FAR, FAR better shape than Dantonio at MSU or Franklin at PSU, and I can't say his program is any farther ahead than either of those at that point.  And if you compare him to hires at helmet schools, with every advantage in the book, it's even worse

Another national writer:

Think about this, Harbaugh is now in his third year at Michigan and his team is just 1-4 against top rivals Michigan State and Ohio State and has never finished a season better than tied for third in the Big Ten East. Given that Michigan still has road games at Wisconsin and at Penn State and a home game against Ohio State, there is a very good chance the Wolverines finish year three under Jim Harbaugh at 8-4.

Here are what some other top coaches did in year two or three at their respective schools: Nick Saban went 26-1 in years two and three at Alabama, notching a national championship in year three. Urban Meyer won national titles in year two at Florida and year three at Ohio State and has come in first or tied for first all five years at Ohio State. James Franklin won the Big Ten in year three at Penn State and won nine games in years two and three at freaking Vanderbilt. Chris Petersen won the Pac 12 in year three at Washington. Jimbo Fisher won the ACC in year three and Dabo Swinney won his division in year three at Clemson.

Putting Jim Harbaugh in the same category with these coaches right now is, frankly, absurd.

Harbaugh has gotten a ton of attention for his off field shenanigans, but he has hasn’t won anything and his failure to find a decent quarterback in three years is entirely his own fault, given the fact that he came to Michigan with the reputation of an offensive guru.

Harbaugh is now 5-4 in his last nine games with the Wolverines. Nick Saban has lost four games in his past four seasons and Urban has only lost four games in his past three seasons.

Right now Jim Harbaugh is the fourth best coach in his own division. Maybe that changes in year four, but in his third year at Michigan Harbaugh is the most overrated coach in college football.

ELA

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2017, 05:04:19 PM »
Or from a UM blogger

Last night was a turning point. It happens in all our lives. Whether it be at work (when you realize you need to make a change) or in your personal life (when you finally accept that no matter how hard you try, your marriage is irreparably broken).

I tried to convince myself that Harbaugh was our savior. Our savant. I was fooled by his looks. By his talk. By the aura of the prodigal son returning home to deliver us what his father figure, never could: a National Title.

But, alas, all that was an illusion. A mirage. Jim Harbaugh has always proven to be an extremely stubborn, flawed football coach. A good coach? Certainly. The best Michigan can do? Yes.

But a savior? A savant? Elite? No. That question has been answered.

We all want our children to be the best. The reality is that they aren’t always going to be......

Jimmy is our son, and I’ll always love him.

But I know who he is now. We ALL do.

So let’s accept that. And MOVE ON. Every now and then we will have a season like last year. Where we are allowed to dare to DREAM. But those will be few and far between.

We are who we are. A program that dreams of being the leaders and best.

But the reality says that we are merely good.

Like Jimmy. Just good. And sometimes, good, is the best we can get.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Michigan State (2-0, 4-1) at #7 Michigan (1-1, 4-1) Postgame
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2017, 05:15:27 PM »
So the last guy thinks that Michigan can't do any better, but should move on from him anyway? 

That doesn't seem to be very well thought out.
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

 

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