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Topic: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?

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847badgerfan

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2020, 09:32:28 AM »
Yeah, you have to be able to adjust your "system" to the roster that you inherit, otherwise you get a RichRod-esque type rebuild.

How would Cryst do if he inherited a team that was built by Mike Leach?
Very poorly for a while, until he established his identity. 
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Honestbuckeye

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2020, 09:48:12 AM »
I think you’re missing the point. Having balance in the ability to attack multiple different ways from base formations is in fact… An identity.

The real issue is, have you run it enough and do your players understand it enough so that they can execute it flawlessly without too much thought process. That is an identity.  



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bayareabadger

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2020, 10:28:09 AM »
Very poorly for a while, until he established his identity.
Mild disagree. His background is West Coast offense. You give him that set of receivers and a good QB, he makes it work short term. Maybe not great, but I bet competent. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2020, 10:33:24 AM »
I personally don't care about having identity versus simply having a generally effective offense.  It strikes me that having ANY "identity" narrows your choices and makes you easier to defend, unless said "identity" is "they have no identity, you can't predict what they are going to do.".

And I could be wrong of course, maybe Michigan needs an identity on offense.  Maybe they need a better offense.

bayareabadger

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2020, 10:39:33 AM »
I think you’re missing the point. Having balance in the ability to attack multiple different ways from base formations is in fact… An identity.

The real issue is, have you run it enough and do your players understand it enough so that they can execute it flawlessly without too much thought process. That is an identity. 




To a degree that's true, but it's a relatively small part of the picture. 

Good talent and execution are king. You can have a discordant identity and those two things can carry it through. System is a sort of cohesion, though it lightly touches on execution and a good bit on identity. A few years back I watched a pretty decent offense that didn't really have a great identity. It just had a bunch of NFL receivers who played well and a decent OL, and it was pretty good. 

Since Michigan is what brought it up, that school makes a fascinating case. When Jimmy arrived, he had identity, WCO passing, downhill running. But they've really only had one good not special tailback and not much in the way of good QBs. Each year of issues brings some new offensive idea, some new OC, and of course you don't get an identity. You lack beastly (and sometimes even good) players and you keep chasing every fad. 

Shoot, UW has minimal receivers, so-so QBs, builds great OLs and finds very good tailbacks, and WCO with downhill running works just fine. Michigan ain't had the QBs or RBs (or to a degree quality OLs in terms of play) to make the magic happen. (Michigan is also weird because it fielded a run of offenses that were often efficient, not explosive, got boosted in advanced metrics by facing good defenses, a good side convo if we want to have it, and were better at converting drives into points than gaining yards. to 2017, that offense was awful)

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2020, 11:21:47 AM »
The reason you have to have an "identity" is that you simply can't teach everything. Football is a game of execution, and there are only so many concepts a player can hold in his head and be capable of executing without thought. This is especially true in college where you don't have NFL-level skills and have limited practice time. Mike Leach only teaches his receivers to run routes from one side of the formation--he'd rather limit his formation but have players who can execute without thought. But it's even true in the NFL--you have offenses that their run plays will almost entirely center around specific blocking schemes, so they don't have to have their OL doing one thing on one play and something completely different on the next. 

Your identity is the group of blocking schemes / plays / concepts that you can execute automatically. 

That doesn't mean that "having an identity" means you have to look like Wisconsin or like an Air Raid offense. It doesn't mean you have to be primarily run or primarily pass. 

What it *should* mean is that you either tailor your offensive identity to your talent, or you recruit the talent necessary for your preferred identity, but either way you get there the two need to match. Paul Chryst couldn't run his offense with Mike Leach's roster, and vice versa. Too many coaches try to have an "identity" with rosters incapable of matching that identity. 


Honestbuckeye

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2020, 11:55:26 AM »
The reason you have to have an "identity" is that you simply can't teach everything. Football is a game of execution, and there are only so many concepts a player can hold in his head and be capable of executing without thought. This is especially true in college where you don't have NFL-level skills and have limited practice time. Mike Leach only teaches his receivers to run routes from one side of the formation--he'd rather limit his formation but have players who can execute without thought. But it's even true in the NFL--you have offenses that their run plays will almost entirely center around specific blocking schemes, so they don't have to have their OL doing one thing on one play and something completely different on the next.

Your identity is the group of blocking schemes / plays / concepts that you can execute automatically.

That doesn't mean that "having an identity" means you have to look like Wisconsin or like an Air Raid offense. It doesn't mean you have to be primarily run or primarily pass.

What it *should* mean is that you either tailor your offensive identity to your talent, or you recruit the talent necessary for your preferred identity, but either way you get there the two need to match. Paul Chryst couldn't run his offense with Mike Leach's roster, and vice versa. Too many coaches try to have an "identity" with rosters incapable of matching that identity.


Finally.  Someone gets it. 
continuity adds to it too. If you can have the same base identity for numerous seasons- you can teach it to starters and back ups, evolve it, and most importantly- RECRUIT to it. 
and then, the ultimate achievement- tailor it to your talent without changing it.  See Cardale Jones v Alabama.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2020, 01:10:02 PM »
Finally.  Someone gets it. 
continuity adds to it too. If you can have the same base identity for numerous seasons- you can teach it to starters and back ups, evolve it,

I didn't think you believed in this.  Good job, man!
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Honestbuckeye

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2020, 02:50:38 PM »
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

bayareabadger

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2020, 03:59:18 PM »
The reason you have to have an "identity" is that you simply can't teach everything. Football is a game of execution, and there are only so many concepts a player can hold in his head and be capable of executing without thought. This is especially true in college where you don't have NFL-level skills and have limited practice time. Mike Leach only teaches his receivers to run routes from one side of the formation--he'd rather limit his formation but have players who can execute without thought. But it's even true in the NFL--you have offenses that their run plays will almost entirely center around specific blocking schemes, so they don't have to have their OL doing one thing on one play and something completely different on the next.

Your identity is the group of blocking schemes / plays / concepts that you can execute automatically.

So I think this is partially true, but it can be a bit more cloudy.

We would argue Wisconsin has generally maintained the same identity since the 90s, with maybe a three-game detour when Anderson tried to spice in a little spread stuff. But that identity has oft seen subtle shifts in the plays/concepts. In 2010, UW was a inside zone/power/pin-and-pull team. Now they run power in a way that looks like counter, lots more counter. When they had Jonathan Taylor, they worked in more outside zone, something they used int he 90s but rarely under Chryst. 

Sometimes I think identity is as much a spirit as anything else. A style you build to. The Leach Air Raid is a rather rigid on, but some are not. (It also helps when you're either good or at least seem like you have an aim. Kentucky is worse than Michigan, but you knew their identity. I think some years, Michigan has trended toward and identity, just not one that people wanted when it wasn't effective. A lot of the best offenses get their identity because they're just crushing folks, so we see their distilled from)

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2020, 04:19:12 PM »
Good points.

I believe both ends of the spectrum, even for something as simple as run/pass ratio, are signs of great coaching.  If a team can consistently win by doing the same thing forever, that's amazing.  That's Tom Osborne, once he switched to the option.
But if you can pass the ball 55% of the time one year and win and then only pass it 40% of the time another year and win, that's also quite amazing.  And probably more rare.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2020, 04:25:38 PM »
So I think this is partially true, but it can be a bit more cloudy.

We would argue Wisconsin has generally maintained the same identity since the 90s, with maybe a three-game detour when Anderson tried to spice in a little spread stuff. But that identity has oft seen subtle shifts in the plays/concepts. In 2010, UW was a inside zone/power/pin-and-pull team. Now they run power in a way that looks like counter, lots more counter. When they had Jonathan Taylor, they worked in more outside zone, something they used int he 90s but rarely under Chryst.

Sometimes I think identity is as much a spirit as anything else. A style you build to. The Leach Air Raid is a rather rigid on, but some are not. (It also helps when you're either good or at least seem like you have an aim. Kentucky is worse than Michigan, but you knew their identity. I think some years, Michigan has trended toward and identity, just not one that people wanted when it wasn't effective. A lot of the best offenses get their identity because they're just crushing folks, so we see their distilled from)
You can massage the system to your talent. Wisconsin is different when they have a good QB. It doesn't mean they go air raid, but they're more capable and willing to open it up. When you have an RB that is more suited between the tackles, you don't run him on a bunch of sweeps. When you have an RB that is better in space, you make use of that instead.

Sometimes it might be as simple as bringing in a new OC or a new OL coach that wants to teach certain concepts in different ways than the predecessors, or has different ideas about what does and doesn't work. As long as they have the right talent for what they're trying to do, changing identity in that way doesn't mean you don't have an identity. 

Jeff Brohm is an example of someone who is struggling between what he wants and what his players can execute. He wanted Sindelar to be his QB. Big guy, strong arm, can rifle it 40 yards downfield on a string. But you can't throw 40 yards downfield when you don't have great WRs to get open and don't have the OL to keep your QB vertical, so he kept going back to Blough. Blough didn't have the arm, but he could evade the rush and extend the play. Now we're getting the WR talent and the OL is improving [but still below average], but now he's having trouble getting the QB who can make the throws that he wants. 

Now, part of it might be just a lack of talent. But these guys are all FBS athletes, and increasingly as he gets more good recruits, these are guys who had better-than-MAC offers. He's just having trouble trying to figure out what identity fits his players, instead of trying to get players shoehorned into his preferred identity. 

FearlessF

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Re: Luke Fickell or Matt Campbell...who ya got?
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2020, 07:46:17 PM »
Good points.

I believe both ends of the spectrum, even for something as simple as run/pass ratio, are signs of great coaching.  If a team can consistently win by doing the same thing forever, that's amazing.  That's Tom Osborne, once he switched to the option.
But if you can pass the ball 55% of the time one year and win and then only pass it 40% of the time another year and win, that's also quite amazing.  And probably more rare.
I will agree, but also point out that Devaney named Osborne offensive coordinator for the 1969 season. Osborne immediately overhauled the offense, switching to a balanced attack operated from the I formation. The revamped offense sparked the 1970 Cornhuskers to the first national title in program history.

from 1969 to 1997 Osborne's offense had different identities, but always had an identity.  And all of those offenses were successful.

Obviously, his offense was shut down a few times by great defenses vs the Sooners or a Florida team playing in a bowl game, but over the entire season the offense was successful.

Some guys just know how to coach offense.  
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