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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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847badgerfan

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My point is that the Founders intended to give us a Constitutional Republic, and we barely resemble that today - even if you squint.

"A republic, if you can keep it. Our responsibility is to keep it.”

We didn't keep it very well.
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OrangeAfroMan

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A direct democracy only works if your population is small enough.  (ancient Greek city-state)

A republic is basically a representative democracy.

The phrase 'democratic republic' makes sense here.  The idea that a precise term isn't found in the constitution as meaning anything is silly.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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The US has always had imbalances, bad behaviors, serious mistakes, calamitous times, one significant uncivil war, graft and corruption on a major scale, multiple wars and conflicts, economic disparities, contested elections, even slavery ... and yet we're still here and still doing "OK" in my view.

I wish we were better, but human nature and all that.  Trying to fix our issues is not easy.  There was a time when "party bosses" basically ran large areas of the country like dukes.

Cincydawg

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A direct democracy only works if your population is small enough.  (ancient Greek city-state)
It didn't work all that well even back then.  Women of course were not allowed to vote, nor were slaves.  And their democracy fell into ruin fairly quickly.

It's  two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.

Our Founders feared a pure democracy about as much as a monarchy.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Our Founders feared a pure democracy about as much as a monarchy. 
It also wasn't feasible, so...
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Cincydawg

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Court reverses Douglass Mackey's election interference conviction
Court reverses Douglass Mackey's election interference conviction

medinabuckeye1

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Aeolipile - Wikipedia

The steam turbine thing was Greek, not that it's changes your point.  Later Egyptians were partly Greek anyway.  China had some relevant innovations like paper and noodles and gunpowder of course.  The printing press was one of the major innovations I think.

Also somewhat on point is the height difference between a South and North Korean today, or the night time satellite images.

My Dad was born in a house, literally, with no electricity 108 years ago.  His youth experience was closer to that of an ancient than ours today.  They didn't even have Amazon.
Oops on origin of the Aeolipile.  As you said, the point stands.  Humans were VERY close to a working steam engine thousands of years ago.  

The height difference between North and South Koreans is fascinating.  

Your last point fascinates me.  Consider all the stuff that we don't know how to do.  Specialization brings massive increases in efficiency but how many of us still actually know how to turn grain into food?  You are right, people living a hundred or certainly 3-400 years ago experienced life much more similarly to an ancient than to us.  

Cincydawg

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The concept of "checks and balances" is pretty astute, I don't know how else things could work well, though some other countries have of course different ways of doing things.  The concept of "innocent until proven" is another great concept.  Trial by jury, I never thought up another good way to do that.  

The Supreme Court basically cemented its ability to overturn decisions and interpret law at Marbury-v-Madison.  We owe a good but I think to John Marshall for his prudence, and juriprudence, most decisions then were 6-0.  Did you know more SCOTUS decisions in the recent term were 9-0 than any other vote?  That has been true for a while also.

The concept of a Senate is good, I think, though one can certainly argue the compromise on its structure is ... debatable.  The concept of the Electoral College has strengths, and weaknesses, like most things.  Democrats don't like it, Republicans usually do, because it favors or disfavors their strengths.  No need to get into them, the EC isn't going away, though the Compact of the States could change things without an Amendment.  Maybe.

Can you imagine California voters learning their electors voted for Trump?  Ha.

FearlessF

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I'd like to know who was in charge of the country. Everyone should want to know.
I want to know.  out of curiosity
I don't think that knowledge would change anything
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Why America's Founders Didn't Want a Democracy
Why America's Founders Didn't Want a Democracy


Quote
The role of government as [America’s founders] saw it, was to protect the rights of individuals, and the biggest threat to individual liberty was the government itself. So they designed a government with constitutionally limited powers, constrained to carry out only those activities specifically allowed by the Constitution. This book describes how the fundamental principle underlying American government has been transformed from protecting individual liberty to carrying out the will of the people, as revealed by a democratic decision-making process. (p. xxii)
Holcombe begins by laying out the case that “the Founders had no intention of creating a democracy, in the sense of a government that would be guided by popular opinion,” (p. 5) in sharp contrast to current “understanding.” And what makes the transformation from a central focus on liberty to a central focus on democracy that routinely invades liberty particularly significant is that
Quote
the powers embodied in America’s twenty-first-century democratic government are those that eighteenth-century Americans revolted against to escape. (p. 7)


Cincydawg

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The book also challenges commonly held presumptions that our Founders wanted democracy. But while “the Founders wanted those in charge of government’s operations to be selected by a democratic process,” they “also wanted to insulate those who ran the government from direct influence by its citizens” because “y insulating political decision-makers from directs accountability to citizens, the government would be in a better position to adhere to its constitutionally-mandated limits.” (p. 15)
“Thus, the Constitution created a limited government designed to protect liberty, not to foster democracy.” (p. 16) But the United States “consistently has moved toward more democracy, and the unintended side effect has been a reduction in liberty.” (p. 25)
Holcombe lays out issues of consensus versus democracy, with consensus illustrated by market systems in which all those whose property rights are involved agree to transactions, (p. 29) but in government, “a group is able to undertake more extensive collective action if it requires less consensus to act.” (p. 30) And the slippery slope is that
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Quote [t]he more citizens want to further national goals through government action, the less consensus they will demand in the collective decision-making process. (p. 33)



Cincydawg

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Holcombe’s section on “The Elitist Constitution” is fascinating. It lays out the case for why “[t]he Constitution devised democratic processes for collective decision-making, but the Founders had no intention of designing a government that would respond to the will of the majority,” (p. 70) as illustrated by the fact that citizens “had almost no direct input into the federal government as the Constitution was originally written and ratified.” (p. 70)
The section on the Electoral College is even more striking, as it stands in sharp variance from the presumptions behind almost the entire current debate over the National Popular Vote compact:
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Quote [A]t the time the Constitution was written the Founders anticipated that in most cases no candidate would receive votes from a majority of the electors. The Founders reasoned that most electors would vote for one candidate from their own states…and it would be unlikely that voting along state lines would produce any candidate with a majority of the votes. (p. 75)
Consequently,
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Quote The Founders envisioned that in most cases the president would end up being chosen by the House of Representatives from the list of the top-five electoral vote recipients…Furthermore, there was no indication that the number of electoral votes received should carry any weight besides creating a list of the top five candidates


ELA

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I'd like to know who was in charge of the country. Everyone should want to know.
I kind of assume Trump isn't in change of the country now.  And I actually hope, he isn't.  We vote for a politician who stands for a set of ideas, then they appoint people to implement the ideas they promoted.  I think that trickles down.  I don't actually think most congressmen read what they vote for.  And I don't think we want them to.  That's like being mad Brad Pitt doesn't write his own movies.  He's a performer, and he performs in certain types of movies.  If we don't like his movies, he goes away.  I don't think many politicians know what they vote for.  They are the public face of a bunch of Ivy League 25 years olds, on $25k salaries, who generally agree with what the dancing monkey ran on, who tell them what to think

 

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