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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41384 on: January 26, 2025, 10:26:03 AM »
Need solutions.
Some things are basic human needs (in this time and this society) and shouldn't be held to the normal free-market economics of supply and demand.

Some would argue healthcare is one.  I tend to agree.  And I think we could EASILY consider housing another, at least the tail end of the bell curve.  I know there's Section 8 housing, or whatever it's called now, but are those being continuously built or are they just old shitty places in shitty areas?  A private company doesn't want to build new low-income housing?  I get that.  But again, at some point on the poverty bell curve, we need to transition from money-making ventures to basic human needs.

I know many here disagree with me on much of this, but is the above idea really that radical?  Is it so far-left?  You may say "oh, we can't do that because this and that" and you're probably right and know more about the ins and outs of it than I do.

But what CAN we do?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41385 on: January 26, 2025, 10:27:02 AM »
Alright, 2 people choose to do it.
My post is nullified. 

Nobody said that, quit being such a baby.

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41386 on: January 26, 2025, 10:28:12 AM »
Some things are basic human needs (in this time and this society) and shouldn't be held to the normal free-market economics of supply and demand.

Some would argue healthcare is one.  I tend to agree.  And I think we could EASILY consider housing another, at least the tail end of the bell curve.  I know there's Section 8 housing, or whatever it's called now, but are those being continuously built or are they just old shitty places in shitty areas?  A private company doesn't want to build new low-income housing?  I get that.  But again, at some point on the poverty bell curve, we need to transition from money-making ventures to basic human needs.

I know many here disagree with me on much of this, but is the above idea really that radical?  Is it so far-left?  You may say "oh, we can't do that because this and that" and you're probably right and know more about the ins and outs of it than I do.

But what CAN we do?

Yes, of course it's far left.  That doesn't mean it's inherently wrong, but there's no denying it's a very far left viewpoint.

MrNubbz

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41387 on: January 26, 2025, 10:28:48 AM »
Alright, 2 people choose to do it.
My post is nullified. 

Not two - whole crews(62 in all) - are you too broke to pay attention? Ask the people who at least had somewhere to stay even temporarly.What did you build for them besides the froth foaming from your triggered disdain
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41388 on: January 26, 2025, 10:32:59 AM »
Some things are basic human needs (in this time and this society) and shouldn't be held to the normal free-market economics of supply and demand.

Some would argue healthcare is one.  I tend to agree.  And I think we could EASILY consider housing another, at least the tail end of the bell curve.  I know there's Section 8 housing, or whatever it's called now, but are those being continuously built or are they just old shitty places in shitty areas?  A private company doesn't want to build new low-income housing?  I get that.  But again, at some point on the poverty bell curve, we need to transition from money-making ventures to basic human needs.

I know many here disagree with me on much of this, but is the above idea really that radical?  Is it so far-left?  You may say "oh, we can't do that because this and that" and you're probably right and know more about the ins and outs of it than I do.

But what CAN we do?
Well, I work on affordable housing projects, and yes, it is really hard to get them approved at the local level - even in places that many would consider to be shithole towns. Our last one took 4 years to get approved.


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Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41389 on: January 26, 2025, 10:35:21 AM »
so I and my company have been involved in tiny home projects. 

we were approached and asked to do this by local community group groups who specialize in providing housing for low income families.  

The homes are being built by professional high-end builders, and are very high-quality.   The demand is high and it is coming from places you might not expect.   

For example, many of those wanting to buy a tiny home, our younger married couples with bright futures. The quality of the homes has an appeal and the fact that there is already going to be a secondary market means this could be a steppingstone to a bigger home. That’s because it’s already been illustrated that if these homes are built with quality, and are truly owned by the occupants, their value actually will appreciate, and that has been demonstrated.

Others who are applying are folks who could not afford to buy a bigger home, but our gainfully employed and want a place of their own and want to get out of the apartment they live in. They want to own something and have their own yard and have an asset that appreciates.

so finding an answer to the challenges that are presented has been the objective. We’ve got insurance companies that will ensure them, my bank who will provide the financing for them at very aggressive rates, and high-end quality builders who are willing to build them.

Not saying this is the answer to all of the world’s problems, but I can tell you there are many young families and low income income people who are so excited to get their own home and they view it as a start of something bigger.  

I can also tell you that nobody is really making any money on this. Not my bank, not the builders, and not the insurance companies. They are doing it because they have the wherewithal to do something to help people that need the help. And those receiving help are getting an app appreciating asset that they otherwise would not be able to get.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41390 on: January 26, 2025, 10:38:29 AM »
The Amish make solid products and didn't wait on any red tape
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41391 on: January 26, 2025, 10:52:56 AM »
Some things are basic human needs (in this time and this society) and shouldn't be held to the normal free-market economics of supply and demand.

Some would argue healthcare is one.  I tend to agree.  And I think we could EASILY consider housing another, at least the tail end of the bell curve.  I know there's Section 8 housing, or whatever it's called now, but are those being continuously built or are they just old shitty places in shitty areas?  A private company doesn't want to build new low-income housing?  I get that.  But again, at some point on the poverty bell curve, we need to transition from money-making ventures to basic human needs.

I know many here disagree with me on much of this, but is the above idea really that radical?  Is it so far-left?  You may say "oh, we can't do that because this and that" and you're probably right and know more about the ins and outs of it than I do.

But what CAN we do?
Start with finding us a good example of someone, ANYWHERE, who has decoupled supply and demand in the housing market successfully by treating housing as a "basic human need" rather than an market-provided economic good. I could give you examples of countries who have done this with healthcare, with varying levels of success. But I'm not aware of any countries that have done this with housing. 

I'll hang up and listen, Pawl. 

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41392 on: January 26, 2025, 11:08:29 AM »
Tiny homes are a result of the rich fleecing the poor, while being subsidized by the government.  It pisses me off to no end.
Damn those rich Pennsylvania Amish for fleecing the poor!!!

Damn them all to Hell!!!
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41393 on: January 26, 2025, 11:14:39 AM »
Some things are basic human needs (in this time and this society) and shouldn't be held to the normal free-market economics of supply and demand.

Some would argue healthcare is one.  I tend to agree.  And I think we could EASILY consider housing another, at least the tail end of the bell curve.  I know there's Section 8 housing, or whatever it's called now, but are those being continuously built or are they just old shitty places in shitty areas?  A private company doesn't want to build new low-income housing?  I get that.  But again, at some point on the poverty bell curve, we need to transition from money-making ventures to basic human needs.
you have some experience with Native reservations........
housing has been provided there as a basic human need
there are pro's & con's
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41394 on: January 26, 2025, 11:21:55 AM »
What we’ve got to do as a country when it comes to affordable housing we need to look at the past conditions that allowed us to have some of the most affordable housing on the planet. Part of this is taking a deep dive at everything, and not liking some of the answers. 

For example, not long ago in my own mostly rural county, if you wanted to build a house, you didn’t need permission from anybody. You would just go build it. No permits, no governmental bureaucracy, no red tape. Just build it. I’d say this was the way it was done in the country forever, probably up until the 1960’s, with the last area’s probably adopting at least minimal requirements in the 1990’s. 

Now, I’m sure we could debate the pros and cons of this all day long. Obviously, there were some problems.  Zoning, inferior construction, ramshackle structures or structures that did not hold up in areas like Florida or Texas when hurricanes start rolling in every few years instead of every decade. But I’d wager to guess that this was a major driver of affordable housing in years past. I’m not advocating for a no permit free for all, but maybe we could identify excessive regulations and trim them down. 


Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41395 on: January 26, 2025, 11:29:55 AM »
The next thing is that we have to remove some of the government incentives because some of it actually hurts more than it helps. This applies to markets as a whole, from apartments and rent houses all the way to private homes. Things like rent control, government subsidized housing, government subsidized loans. When you attempt to box in the free market, you get unintended consequences. You can’t artificially constrain supply and manipulate demand and not Jack up the price for things. 

Speaking of free market, we need to ensure that companies are not circumventing competition. Competition in markets is what can help keep prices low. When companies get a monopoly by buying up smaller companies and merging with peer sizes this unbalances the supply and demand equation. 

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41396 on: January 26, 2025, 11:30:47 AM »
Now, I’m sure we could debate the pros and cons of this all day long. Obviously, there were some problems.  Zoning, inferior construction, ramshackle structures or structures that did not hold up in areas like Florida or Texas when hurricanes start rolling in every few years instead of every decade. But I’d wager to guess that this was a major driver of affordable housing in years past. I’m not advocating for a no permit free for all, but maybe we could identify excessive regulations and trim them down.


This.

When I first started in this business 40 years ago, getting permits was a fast process. We could start a project in November and have it built by the following November. 

Fast-forward to today and it takes a minimum 18-24 months just to get all of the permits required. I've had projects where almost 30 permits were required by various agencies - many of which are redundant and contradict each other along the way.

It's a joke and it's why I no longer practice heavy civil engineering. It's not fun anymore.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41397 on: January 26, 2025, 11:40:11 AM »
Just to bear clear, I’m not advocating for no permits and no regulations or restrictions. Also, I’m not in favor of no subsidies or incentives. I just think there should just be minimal.  We need to let the free market, the truly free market determine pricing. If that means breaking up big companies or whatever means necessary it should be looked at. Because at the end of the day, housing is simply the cost of the land, the concrete and lumber and all the materials, and the labor. 

I can still remember, as a kid, you’d hear someone comment about how “so and so” built their house and they meant that they fucking built the thing with their own two hands. Sure, they had help, and it was hard work and it took awhile but they were solid homes that served them for decades. 

 

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