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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34566 on: July 17, 2024, 03:47:08 PM »
Both sides attempt to paint a picture that it would be a disaster if the other fellow won, we all know this.  I ask myself how my personal life has changed under Biden or Trump.  That is selfish, but it's a factor.  My freedoms are pretty much the same, for me personally.  I've done well financially with Biden. But if we elect "X", it'll mean the end of everything.  Apparently.
this all day long. the country isn't going to be over and the world isn't going to end if either of these geriatric f*cks win the election.

longhorn320

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34567 on: July 17, 2024, 03:49:50 PM »
This is really fascinating. What I take away from this is not that Ohio necessarily changed. But there's something about Ohioans that make them just LOVE them some Trump. Because I find it hard to believe the state made an 8-10 point swing overall in political party preference in 4-8 years between 2012 and '16 or '20.

There's nothing that I can see in demographic changes that would explain that.

Any thoughts?
Maybe its just that independents have gone bigtime for Trump

Biden has really been a very bad President and the whole country knows it

They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

longhorn320

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34568 on: July 17, 2024, 03:50:39 PM »
this all day long. the country isn't going to be over and the world isn't going to end if either of these geriatric f*cks win the election.
well your half right
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34569 on: July 17, 2024, 03:54:09 PM »
Biden has really been a very bad President and the whole country knows it
About a third of the country claim he's doing a good job.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34570 on: July 17, 2024, 03:57:30 PM »
Maybe its just that independents have gone bigtime for Trump

Biden has really been a very bad President and the whole country knows it
First, I don't think that independents went "bigtime" for Trump. 

This suggests that in 2016, they went 43% for Trump, 42% for Hillary. 




And this suggests that in 2020, independents moved substantially to Biden:



And neither would explain Ohio's rapid divergence from historical trends unless they had an outsized number of independents. But Pew again doesn't suggest that's really the case (not shown on this screenshot but the survey below was 2014):



Perhaps your point was that in between the 2020 election and now, independents have gone bigtime for Trump?

But it wouldn't explain the 2016 or 2020 election results where I see the major divergence from 2000->2012 numbers. 

Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34571 on: July 17, 2024, 03:57:33 PM »
I didn’t view them as monumental. 
yeah, cool. just because you don't view them that way means....absolutely nothing.

doesn't matter what you think, what matters is what is. and they are in fact monumental. or were. until the US gov't tortured and tried to kill Julian Assange and shut him up and effectively shut him and WikiLeaks down- and until the founders of The Intercept all quit because the rag was taken over by the billionaire donor who helped them fund it and replaced the editorial board with a bunch of RussiaGater NYT/Bezos Post cast-offs.

The public learned about the US gov't lying to the American people about it's war efforts/aims in Iraq and Afghanistan, learned about massive war crimes and torture the US gov't committed, illegally spying of the CIA/NSA, Hillary Clinton campaign and the DNC working in co-hoots in '16 to rig the primary and cheat Bernie Sanders, endless classified state department cables proving the US gov't flat out lying to the American people about Libya, Syria, Ukraine, stories about banks working with cartels, wealthiest people in the world off-shoring their money to avoid taxes- some of them world politicians....and that's just like 10% of the massive, ground-breaking monumental sh*t that they have broken. The list is endless. Stack up those two establishments records of breaking stories in the last 15ish years vs NYT/Bezos Post- not even f*cking close.

Why do you think they hated them? JEALOUSY.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34572 on: July 17, 2024, 03:57:38 PM »
What was the "monumental" change or thing that happened due to wikileaks?

Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34573 on: July 17, 2024, 03:59:07 PM »
What was the "monumental" change or thing that happened due to wikileaks?
the change are those stories/that TRUE information actually seeing the light of day....thought that was pretty self-explanatory...

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34574 on: July 17, 2024, 04:17:44 PM »
OK, we learned of "true stories" ostensibly, some of which might have been fabricated, and this changed ... what?  Nothing.


The government lied to us about this and that.  OK, yeah, I believe that.  I believed that without any wikileaks.  Monumental, to me, means an event that clearly altered the course of history for better or worse, not just something that maybe shed some light on a thing.

And obviously a LOT of stuff one can find on the Internet is simply false.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34575 on: July 17, 2024, 04:42:16 PM »
Biden's frustration and defiance as 2024 race intensifies (thehill.com)
Biden's frustration and defiance as 2024 race intensifies (thehill.com)

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34576 on: July 17, 2024, 04:44:11 PM »
As for billionaires offshoring money, I've explained a number of times why they simply don't need to do such a thing.

And of course it would be somewhat risky for them, a risk they don't need to take, ever.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34577 on: July 17, 2024, 04:44:17 PM »
the change are those stories/that TRUE information actually seeing the light of day....thought that was pretty self-explanatory...
Nothing is self-explanatory to him
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34578 on: July 17, 2024, 04:48:46 PM »
One person could see a thing as "monumental" while another one does not.  I mostly wondered what mBot thought was monumental.  I'm entitled to note I don't think any of that was, as none of it caused any real changes in the course of history, it was just "information". 




medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #34579 on: July 17, 2024, 04:54:08 PM »
This is really fascinating. What I take away from this is not that Ohio necessarily changed. But there's something about Ohioans that make them just LOVE them some Trump. Because I find it hard to believe the state made an 8-10 point swing overall in political party preference in 4-8 years between 2012 and '16 or '20.

There's nothing that I can see in demographic changes that would explain that.

Any thoughts?
First, I don't see this as really limited to Ohio.  The growth in the R margin from 2016-2020 is more specific to Ohio but that could just be because after 2016 Ohio lost it's long-time status as a battleground state with TONS of political advertising and campaigning.  Once that happened the ads and campaign activities dried up.  There was still activity here obviously, but it was locally-driven not top-down nationally driven and the locally driven activity was stronger on the R side simply because there were more R's and more R officeholders, etc.  

The shift from 2000-2016 nearly all occurred in the 2016 election and I think the story is similar in PA, MI, and WI.  Trump carried all three in 2016 and was the first Republican to do so in a very long time.  Trump lost all three in 2020 but even so, they were CLOSE and if you go back to pre-2016 in any election where the R was close in PA, MI, and WI, the R would have won nationally in a landslide.  Specifically:
National Popular Vote:
  • D+0.5 in 2000
  • R+2.5 in 2004
  • D+7.2 in 2008
  • D+4 in 2012
  • D+2 in 2016
  • D+4.5 in 2020
Pennsylvania:
  • D+4 in 2000, indicates a PVI of D+3.5 
  • D+2.5 in 2004, indicates a PVI of D+5
  • D+10  in 2008, indicates a PVI of D+3
  • D+5.5 in 2012, indicates a PVI of D+1.5
  • R+0.5 in 2016, indicates a PVI of R+2.5
  • D+1 in 2020, indicates a PVI of R+3.5
Michigan:
  • D+5 in 2000, indicates a PVI of D+4.5 
  • D+3.5 in 2004, indicates a PVI of D+6
  • D+16.5 in 2008, indicates a PVI of D+9.3
  • D+9.5 in 2012, indicates a PVI of D+5
  • R+0.2 in 2016, indicates a PVI of R+2.2
  • D+3 in 2020, indicates a PVI of R+1.5
Wisconsin:
  • D+0.5 in 2000, indicates a PVI of 0
  • D+0.5 in 2004, indicates a PVI of D+3
  • D+14 in 2008, indicates a PVI of D+7
  • D+7 in 2012, indicates a PVI of D+3
  • R+0.7 in 2016, indicates a PVI of R+2.7
  • D+0.5 in 2020, indicates a PVI of R+5

Even though all three states flipped back to D in 2020, they all remained MORE Republican in 2020 than the nation as a whole and that was NOT true for any of those states from 2000-2012.  I didn't go back further but I think you'd have to go back something like a century to find the last times that PA, MI, and WI voted MORE Republican than the nation as a whole.  

Fundamentally, 2016 was a major realignment election much like 1932.  Non-college whites specifically are MUCH more Republican than they were previously.  Will it stay that way . . .  Well that is anybody's guess.  Your comment that "Ohioans . . . love them some Trump" suggests that it is a personality thing that will disappear once Trump walks off the national stage.  

I think the change is more permanent.  The Republican VP nominee is pro-Union and pro-minimum wage among other things.  Republicans simply have to adjust to the fact that due to demographic replacement, they simply can't win without enlarging their coalition somewhere.  Trump did that in a major way.  Trump also alienated some people but conveniently for him, a substantial portion of his gains came in states that were able to be flipped while most of his losses came in places where he either was safe or had no chance anyway so they didn't cost him anything.  Ie, you seem to be a normally R-leaning Californian.  If you voted for Romney in 2012 and NOT for Trump in 2016 and 2020 hat didn't cost Trump anything because he lost California by double-digits both times but Romney also lost California by double-digits (smaller double digits but it makes no difference).  

 

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