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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33222 on: June 18, 2024, 11:54:43 AM »
Let's be civil.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33223 on: June 18, 2024, 11:55:12 AM »
I recall seeing some Facebook stuff against Hillary that was incredibly amateurish and often factually badly wrong.  I never saw any that were clever or subtle that were influential in any way I could discern.  

We get hit in the face with billions spent on campaign commercials (most of which are also not very persuasive to me, but they are at least more professionally done).

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33224 on: June 18, 2024, 11:56:13 AM »

GopherRock

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33225 on: June 18, 2024, 12:00:38 PM »
:043:

get a f**cking grip pal. Russian Troll-Bot? Hillary Clinton? Is that you?
Wherever you're getting your talking points from (RT, InfoWars, the Epoch Times, or the RNC day sheet), you need to stop listening to them. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33226 on: June 18, 2024, 12:01:49 PM »
Liked for the Lebowski reference!

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33227 on: June 18, 2024, 12:04:42 PM »
Can you explain this?

Abortion was a sort of political non-issue for decades since Roe. It was a SCOTUS determination so the only REAL fight was based on who would be President and appoint SCOTUS justices. The right promised to appoint people who would overturn Roe, while the left promised to appoint people who would uphold Roe. Beyond that, nothing happened at the Federal level and only battling around the margins occurred at the state level.

The Right got what they wanted, Roe was overturned, and now this is a political hot potato in MANY states. Isn't this what they were asking for? I don't understand how the left has weaponized it, other than potentially realizing it's a wedge issue that Republicans are going to lose on, so they're pushing it hard, likely for boosting turnout.
Abortion has been a political issue since the flawed* Roe decision was made. It comes up every 2 years and will continue to come up.

It's a weapon, and yes, it affected the House and Senate in 2022.

Congress could codify it and has refused.

So, as an adopted kid, which I have mentioned before, I would prefer mothers deliver and go through the adoption process. The lines are out the door and around the block.

Provide financial assistance to those mothers who cannot afford it or have no healthcare.

The exception is for those mothers who are in danger.

That said, I have no issue with a reasonable term, say 15 weeks. My wife has given birth and wants 6 weeks.

15 weeks would probably fly with the American people.

* Said Ruth Bader Ginsburg, just before she passed.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33228 on: June 18, 2024, 12:06:35 PM »
I've noted before, in my view nearly every issue was "weaponized", even when reasonable solutions appear pretty obvious.  The political parties thrive on strife and dissension and hate, so they engender it on most major issues.

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33229 on: June 18, 2024, 12:15:04 PM »
I've noted before, in my view nearly every issue was "weaponized", even when reasonable solutions appear pretty obvious.  The political parties thrive on strife and dissension and hate, so they engender it on most major issues.
True enough.

It doesn't help that people can't seem to break themselves of identity politics.  So many now view politics in the same way we view sports rivalries.  They just can't stand to see their team take a hit or a loss, no matter how untenable the team's position might be.

The party leadership knows this and feeds it.  It's gross.

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33230 on: June 18, 2024, 12:26:37 PM »
I'm a conservative (not far right by any stretch) and I think 15 weeks is reasonable.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33231 on: June 18, 2024, 12:27:17 PM »
the republicans kind of did this sh*t to themselves.

abortion was a major problem for them in the midterms in '22 and IF Trump loses in November the abortion issue will have been a huge factor in why.
Abortion has been a rock around Republican electoral necks ever since Dobbs.  
Can you explain this?

Abortion was a sort of political non-issue for decades since Roe. It was a SCOTUS determination so the only REAL fight was based on who would be President and appoint SCOTUS justices. The right promised to appoint people who would overturn Roe, while the left promised to appoint people who would uphold Roe. Beyond that, nothing happened at the Federal level and only battling around the margins occurred at the state level.

The Right got what they wanted, Roe was overturned, and now this is a political hot potato in MANY states. Isn't this what they were asking for? I don't understand how the left has weaponized it, other than potentially realizing it's a wedge issue that Republicans are going to lose on, so they're pushing it hard, likely for boosting turnout.
I'll take a crack at it:

From Roe (1973) until Dobbs (2022) Abortion was a GREAT issue for Republicans electorally.  It may not seem like it, but let me explain:

There is a background issue that has to be understood.  First is the issue of to whom the Abortion issue is decisive.  To understand this, oversimplify and divide the electorate into four groups:
  • Pro-Choice and also generally agrees with Democrats on other issues.  
  • Pro-Life and also generally agrees with Republicans on other issues.  
  • Pro-Choice but otherwise generally agrees with Republicans.  
  • Pro-Life but otherwise generally agrees with Democrats.  
Electorally Abortion is a complete non-issue for groups #1 and #2 because it aligns with their general politics.  Ie, if you take the issue away, their vote doesn't change.  

Groups #3 and #4 are the ones that need a closer look.  For these folks, their view on Abortion aligns with the opposite party to their general political alignment.  Thus, these folks have a choice to make in any given election of either voting for the candidate who represents their views on Abortion or the candidate who represents the rest of their views generally.  

The Left/Democrats/Media refer to Abortion as a "women's issue" and they generally think that means that nearly all women are pro-choice and thus the abortion issue helps them with women and hurts Republicans.  It isn't that simple.  Abortion is a "women's issue".  If you look at the polling, it is MUCH more important to women than men but this isn't true only for Pro-Choice women, it is true for both Pro-Choice and Pro-Life women.  Ie, very few men vote on the basis of Abortion.  This is MUCH more common among women on BOTH sides of the issue.  

The Left/Media/Democrats frequently talk about the "Gender Gap" where Women are more Democratic than men but the bigger (and more important) differential is the "Marriage Gap" which gets almost no discussion.  Married people of both genders, all races, all incomes, and all education levels vote substantially more Republican than similarly situated single people.  


Back to groups #3 and #4.  Since Abortion is not a very high priority issue for men generally, very few men actually decide their vote based on it.  Obviously a lot of men are in groups #1 and #2 where it doesn't matter and the men in group #3 tend to vote Republican even though they are pro-choice because Abortion isn't a high priority issue for them.  Similarly, the men in group #4 tend to vote Democratic even though they are pro-life because Abortion isn't a high priority issue for them.  

Consequently, the vast majority of voters who "cross the aisle" from their general alignment to their Abortion alignment are women.  You would think that would HELP Democrats because more than half of women favor Abortion rights but it isn't that simple.  A huge (although indeterminate) percentage of those women align with Democrats generally anyway so Abortion cannot be said to be decisive.  Again, Abortion only decides your vote if you vote against your general political alignment because of the Abortion issue.  

Not surprisingly, younger and single women (and frequently those are one-and-the-same) are more pro-choice than older and married women.  The thing is that younger and single women also lean more Democratic generally so for the most part, Democrats aren't picking up any votes there due to Abortion.  Those are votes they would get anyway.  

My guess is that there are a not insignificant number of older/married women in group #4.  They are generally liberal because they want to protect people but they extend that protection to protecting the unborn.  This puts them in conflict because their position on Abortion aligns with Republicans but their position on most other issues aligns with Democrats.  These are votes that Republicans DID get some of between Roe and Dobbs.  

The other side of this coin is that so long as Roe existed, Republicans didn't lose too many votes for their Pro-Life position because so long as Roe was in place, people could reason that it didn't matter.  Once that went away it hurt Republicans three ways:
  • All those pro-life but otherwise Democratic leaning women in group #4 who had been voting Republican to get Roe overturned no longer needed to vote Republican.  
  • Anyone in group #3 (Pro-Choice but otherwise generally Republican) could no longer count on Roe to protect Abortion rights while voting Republican for other reasons because Roe was gone.  
  • It energized pro-choice voters and reminded all those group #3 voters of a reason for them to vote Democratic.  


NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33232 on: June 18, 2024, 12:27:55 PM »
Sen. Murphy fears Supreme Court may rewrite Second Amendment (thehill.com)
Sen. Murphy is either an idiot or has an agenda, or both.

In the article, he complains that he fears that SCOTUS will make it hard for Congress to restrict certain things, which is exactly what the majority opinion stated that Congress needs to pass the ban and that the ATF overstepped its authority. This was NOT a 2nd Amendment case no matter how much Murphy wants to make it such. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33233 on: June 18, 2024, 12:31:09 PM »
Murphy knows what plays well with his base, facts are irrelevant.

Meanwhile, guns with bump stocks are out there today LEGALLY killing about zero people a year.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33234 on: June 18, 2024, 12:38:59 PM »
Trump’s Nord Stream 2 disaster (thehill.com)

Kind of entertaining.  And probably mostly true.

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33235 on: June 18, 2024, 12:59:08 PM »
The Left/Democrats/Media refer to Abortion as a "women's issue" and they generally think that means that nearly all women are pro-choice and thus the abortion issue helps them with women and hurts Republicans.
Define "women" for me please.


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