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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33152 on: June 17, 2024, 05:09:21 PM »
I think there is "money" in the SSTF, just as I think there is money in the T Bills I might purchase.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33153 on: June 17, 2024, 05:11:34 PM »
Yeah, which is why (although you won't like this) I've long advocated for an actual guest worker program. Not even a "path to citizenship" guest worker program, because I don't think they all want to be citizens, now or eventually. But merely something that allows the majority who come here for economic opportunity to be counted [and tracked], which would immediately cut the illegal border crossings to mostly people who we don't want here.

It's easier to secure a border when you have a more robust legal option for people to come.
It would be a heck of an improvement on what we have now!

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33154 on: June 17, 2024, 05:11:41 PM »
There is a pretty clear difference between the working poor, which he cited, and the homeless (with occasional overlap).

The homeless for the most part have "other problems".

The working poor are doing the best they can with the jobs they can secure and the money they can earn.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33155 on: June 17, 2024, 05:29:31 PM »
There is a pretty clear difference between the working poor, which he cited, and the homeless (with occasional overlap).

The homeless for the most part have "other problems".

The working poor are doing the best they can with the jobs they can secure and the money they can earn. 
This is 100% correct.  The vast majority of the homeless in the USA have some other problem beyond merely not having a job.  There are enough jobs and social welfare programs available that you don't become homeless just because they factory cut your OT.  You generally become homeless either because:
  • You have substance problems, or
  • You have mental illness, or
  • Both of the above.  


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33156 on: June 17, 2024, 05:29:39 PM »
Yes, Immigration Hurts American Workers - POLITICO Magazine

Immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer.
This is so obvious that I hope everyone here understands it.  
The U.S.-Mexico Border: How Americans View the Situation, Its Causes and Consequences | Pew Research Center
Just 18% say the U.S. government is doing a good job dealing with the large number of migrants at the border, while 80% say it is doing a bad job, including 45% who say it is doing a very bad job.
  • Republicans’ views are overwhelmingly negative (89% say it’s doing a bad job), as they have been since Joe Biden became president.
  • 73% of Democrats also give the government negative ratings, the highest share recorded during Biden’s presidency.
I cannot think of another issue on which the people are so opposed by the government.  

Ignore Republicans because this isn't some "crazy MAGA Trumpist" issue.  Even Democrats by-and-large realize that this system is a catastrophe.  

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33157 on: June 17, 2024, 05:29:44 PM »
Congress can fix immigration. Congress can fix abortion. Congress can fix a lot of shit.

But they don't.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33158 on: June 17, 2024, 05:30:30 PM »
I don't think you give a damn about this part
I  think this goes without saying but I could care less what you think and most people here probably feel that way.  

I'll still address your points when you try to make coherent ones.  
Poor, undocumented immigrants aren't taking jobs away from very poor/homeless people. 
The law of supply and demand doesn't apply to unskilled labor?
I'll just use what's around me to illustrate.
There's tons of homeless all around Phoenix, especially on the west side.  They probably don't even allow them in Scottsdale.
These homeless people aren't gathered outside Home Depot.  They're on street corners, asking for hand-outs.  This is a big difference. 
If construction companies need skilled workers, they have to pay for those.  If they just want to hand a guy a hammer, YES, they'll opt for the cheaper option (the illegal immigrant).  But there is no other option.  There is not a group of homeless guys and a group of immigrants standing outside Home Depot.
Why aren't they (the native homeless) gathered outside Home Depot?  Is it perhaps because those jobs don't pay enough for them?
It's a blatant false equivalency.  Homeless people grew up here and have a baseline of work/money that is above impoverished Central and South Americans' baseline.  Hell, they don't have a baseline.  
The thing is that unskilled labor used to provide a living for Americans with lower abilities.  Today, it doesn't.  Why?  Supply and demand.  The demand for unskilled labor has cratered due to technology and mechanization and meanwhile the supply of unskilled labor is continually expanded by unrestrained (ok, barely restrained) immigration.  

That is screwing over the lower half.  The mechanization part at least is good for the economy because it increases productivity but why make it WORSE for the less fortunate by importing MORE competition for less jobs?  


Cincydawg

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33161 on: June 17, 2024, 05:35:05 PM »
Congress can fix immigration. Congress can fix abortion. Congress can fix a lot of shit.

But they don't.
Eh, I'm not so sure.  

To take the abortion example, it really is an intractable issue.  There are large numbers of Americans who sincerely believe that ANY abortion is tantamount to murder.  There are also large numbers of Americans who sincerely believe that ANY restriction on abortion is a paternalistic attempt to keep women barefoot and pregnant.  

I'm not arguing for one or the other, just think of it this way:
If you and I have a business dispute.  I think you owe me $100,000 and you think you only owe me $50,000 a mediator/judge can look at the evidence for my case and the evidence for your case and come to a rational conclusion.  How do you mediate between people who see each other has murders and bigots?  If you compromise one side will see you as a murderer and the other will see you as a bigot.  Good luck with that.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33162 on: June 17, 2024, 05:35:34 PM »
A crux (one of) the problem is we have shrill voices on one side saying "BUILD A WALL!!!" and shrill voices on the other side saying "TEAR DOWN ANY WALL THAT GOT BUILT!" and neither is much interested in understand the other side, or the folks like me who advocate for more sensible (in my view) solutions.

Solutions, plural, not singular.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33163 on: June 17, 2024, 05:38:20 PM »
Apologies CD. I meant to say a "robust" guest worker program, i.e. one that accounted for (and tried to fill) the true economic needs of the country.

As it stands, IMHO demand for workers must exceed supply, because immigrants keep coming here [illegally] and working [illegally].
Well sure, but price is a factor.  

Look, I know how to install drywall but I freaking hate it and my job pays more so I don't do it.  Now if drywallers got $150k (that is good money in Ohio), I might get my drywall tools out and do that instead of what I currently do.  For that matter, if it paid that much I might take on some side jobs.  

There is demand for $5/hr illegal immigrant unskilled labor and there isn't demand for $25/hr native unskilled labor.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33164 on: June 17, 2024, 05:42:08 PM »
This is so obvious that I hope everyone here understands it.  I cannot think of another issue on which the people are so opposed by the government. 

Ignore Republicans because this isn't some "crazy MAGA Trumpist" issue.  Even Democrats by-and-large realize that this system is a catastrophe.
More on this from CBS:

MaximumSam

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33165 on: June 17, 2024, 05:52:28 PM »

Quote
That is screwing over the lower half.  The mechanization part at least is good for the economy because it increases productivity but why make it WORSE for the less fortunate by importing MORE competition for less jobs?  
If immigrants are better workers than people already here, and businesses do better with immigrant workers and make more money with them, why are we making everyone poorer to help the lazy?

 

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