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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32340 on: May 28, 2024, 05:32:36 PM »
SCOTUS loves to busy itself with absurd outliers, I'll grant you that.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32341 on: May 28, 2024, 05:44:00 PM »
And fortunately, I think, Justices will contine to ask "What about" questions, because they are important.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32342 on: May 28, 2024, 05:47:22 PM »
Suppose you are a Justice.

Suppose I am the attorney representing a jurisdiction that bans Sunday sales.

Suppose I asserted that banning sales one day a week serves the secular societal purpose of causing the drunks who are unable to plan ahead and buy in advance on Saturday (ie, the worst ones) to dry out and either see the error of their ways or to seek the help that they clearly need due to symptoms withdrawal.

To simplify things, I'll concede that the secular societal purpose outlined above is more-or-less a ruse to justify the law if you'll concede that it IS at least a potential rational purpose for the law.

How would you, Justice @betarhoalphadelta distinguish between a rational purpose being used as a ruse and a rational purpose that is ACTUALLY the reason for the law?
It's a good question, and I'm not a lawyer or a SCOTUS justice. 

I'd probably look at a lot of things.

I'd probably ask the attorney why it is on Sunday, i.e. why not Saturday, or Friday, or Tuesday? If you're that hardcore of a drunk, not being able to buy on Tuesday is just as impactful as not being able to buy on Tuesday. But it's less of a PITA for someone running a Sunday backyard BBQ or someone who ran out of beer at the Super Bowl party. 

I'd probably look at the statements of the legislators that sponsored the law to see what statements were made by them around the time that it was passed. It's difficult to determine intent in a legal sense, even when we all know what the real intent was. But sometimes if they say it out loud, you can identify that it was more about religion than public purpose. 

And ultimately whether I would find it unconstitutional is unclear. As a non-lawyer and non-SCOTUS justice I think it's utter BS, but the law can often be tricky on these sorts of things.
 



medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32343 on: May 28, 2024, 05:52:09 PM »
Please stop pretending that my disagreement with you is the same as not understanding.  That's immensely arrogant on your part.
In your case it is completely justified.

By the way, it isn't:
precedence
It is:
precedent
The plural is precedents.


As for your post, your argument that they should be able to utilize whataboutism is that it's a slippery slope when they use......whataboutism in other cases referring to the Sunday one.

That wouldn't be a problem if they stopped the whataboutism in the first place.
You reference to "whataboutism" is so far off the mark that I didn't even realize what you were referring to until @betarhoalphadelta cleared it up:
Ahh... BTW I think for SCOTUS, it's not a "whataboutism" fallacy. That's when you deflect from one bad thing by your side by pointing out "what about?" something the other side does. They're legitimately trying to flesh out the limits of what effects a finding for one party before them might have down the road.
This has literally nothing to do with the whataboutism fallacy of pointing out something bad that someone else did.

This is about thinking through the implications of the legal precedent that you are about to create.

As I explained above, if SCOTUS invalidated Sunday laws on the basis that they have some religious justification that would create a precedent that any law with some religious justification was invalid.

That would invalidate nearly all laws so to keep it simple I'll just focus on laws against Murder. Murder is prohibited by religions so there is some religious justification for laws against Murder. Thus a ruling that laws with "some religious justification" are an impermissible infringement of the Establishment Clause would invalidate laws against Murder.

This is literally what SCOTUS Justices do for a living. They have to think through the implications of their decisions so they talk a lot about "what about" scenarios.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32344 on: May 28, 2024, 06:05:56 PM »
SCOTUS loves to busy itself with absurd outliers, I'll grant you that.
Do you have an example?  This strikes me as another over generalization.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32345 on: May 28, 2024, 06:17:09 PM »
Do you have an example?  This strikes me as another over generalization.
I'm sure he'll find it somewhere in all those SCOTUS opinions he's read front to back...

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32346 on: May 28, 2024, 06:21:48 PM »
Some interesting reading and good dialogue.  

I will always wonder why SOME people get so triggered over those who have faith.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32347 on: May 28, 2024, 07:00:46 PM »
Faith is what you have when you lack a good reason.  And that's supposed to warrant respect?  Pass.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32348 on: May 28, 2024, 07:01:04 PM »
me too

I just don't see how someone's religious beliefs cause much of a problem in my life.
Even elected officials

If the elected officials make it illegal to buy beer on Sunday, it's a minor inconvenience.
Nothing more.

Even if I own a business that sells beer.
It's a known issue that a business man has to account for.

Many other silly laws and regulations on the books that aren't related much to religion.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32349 on: May 28, 2024, 07:06:18 PM »
me too

I just don't see how someone's religious beliefs cause much of a problem in my life.
Even elected officials

If the elected officials make it illegal to buy beer on Sunday, it's a minor inconvenience.
Nothing more.

Even if I own a business that sells beer.
It's a known issue that a business man has to account for.

Many other silly laws and regulations on the books that aren't related much to religion.
Your argument is harmlessness?  You're obviously not a woman or a minority.  

Christians are sad - they simply need to be pandered to (see Trump holding a bible aloft) in order to become sheep.  
So you're unaffected?  Great. 
OTHER PEOPLE MATTER, TOO.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32350 on: May 28, 2024, 07:15:39 PM »
It's a good question, and I'm not a lawyer or a SCOTUS justice.

I'd probably look at a lot of things.

I'd probably ask the attorney why it is on Sunday, i.e. why not Saturday, or Friday, or Tuesday? If you're that hardcore of a drunk, not being able to buy on Tuesday is just as impactful as not being able to buy on Tuesday. But it's less of a PITA for someone running a Sunday backyard BBQ or someone who ran out of beer at the Super Bowl party.

I'd probably look at the statements of the legislators that sponsored the law to see what statements were made by them around the time that it was passed. It's difficult to determine intent in a legal sense, even when we all know what the real intent was. But sometimes if they say it out loud, you can identify that it was more about religion than public purpose.

And ultimately whether I would find it unconstitutional is unclear. As a non-lawyer and non-SCOTUS justice I think it's utter BS, but the law can often be tricky on these sorts of things.
The law can be very tricky and I think that one reason that laws preventing the sale of liquor on Sundays have survived is that I think it would be tricky to craft a rationale that invalidated those laws without also invalidating a lot of other laws.  

My example was that a finding that Sunday laws are invalid because they have "some religious justification" would also invalidate laws against Murder because those also have "some religious justification" so that is obviously a no-go.  

Statements made by legislators are tricky because you are effectively trying to get into a legislator's head.  Actually it is worse than that because the law probably wouldn't be invalid unless you could get into a majority of the legislator's heads.  Ie, Ohio's HoR has 99 Reps and Ohio's Senate has 33 Senators.  Even if a handfull of Reps and a smaller handfull of Senators made statements UNEQUIVOCALLY indicating that they supported a specific piece of legislation because of the religious implications that wouldn't necessarily invalidate it unless that handfull grew to 50 Reps and/or 17 Senators.  

A SCOTUS ruling that laws were only invalid under the Establishment Clause if there was no non-religious justification would permit more-or-less anything because crafty lawyers could almost always come up with some secular justification for just about anything.  

I'm having trouble coming up with an articulable rationale that would knock out Sunday Laws without having unwanted side effects like knocking out 2am laws or (the extreme) knocking out murder laws and basically everything else.  

When you say that "we all know", I agree but obviously SCOTUS can't just say "We all know" because that isn't an articulable precedent that can be applied to future cases.  

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32351 on: May 28, 2024, 07:39:43 PM »
does a past case need to be considered on a present case and does a present case have to be applied to future cases?

I see where similar or equal rationale should be considered, but is it a must? and if so, why?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32352 on: May 28, 2024, 07:41:09 PM »
If the elected officials make it illegal to buy beer on Sunday, it's a minor inconvenience.
Nothing more.

Even if I own a business that sells beer.
It's a known issue that a business man has to account for.
The funny(?) thing is that liquor store owners in Georgia (using as an example as I lived there once and followed the politics) actually were fine with the ban on Sunday sales. It gave them a day off, and because all of their competitors were ALSO forced to have a day off, didn't materially affect their bottom lines. Customers would stock up on Saturday and then they'd be off. 

Yeah, there were a tiny number of people near the border who would cross to buy on Sunday in neighboring states that allowed it, but not THAT many. 

It created a prisoner's dilemma scenario. As long as all of them were forced not to sell on Sunday, there was no competitive disadvantage to closing on Sunday. But the minute that Sunday sales were legalized, they ALL needed to be open Sunday or else the competition would get those Sunday sales. 

A little of the Baptist & bootlegger scenario going on there IMHO. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32353 on: May 28, 2024, 07:50:49 PM »
So murder is bad because the bible?  

I've officially heard it all.  This is utterly hopeless.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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