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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32270 on: May 28, 2024, 01:12:40 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on May 28, 2024, 01:03:04 PM
There are still states that don't allow atheists to run for government office.

When you remove the supernatural, the natural is all you have.

You're completely backwards on all this and can't even see it.  It's actually quite incredible. 
if all states allowed atheists to run for office, would it make ANY difference at all???
I don't believe so.  but, that's just my belief.


climate change is not a very religious debate.  for the most part the natural is all we have.
some folks believe manmade CO2 is changing the climate for the worse - faith
some folks are skeptical of their belief - non-believers
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32271 on: May 28, 2024, 01:14:29 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on May 28, 2024, 01:01:16 PM
I don't believe most Dems support that, just a fringe few.  No, I don't support that.  That's why this is easy for me.
Each radical side wants absurdity, so a spot in the middle makes it easy. 

9 months is 36 weeks.  Take out the first 4 weeks because the woman doesn't even know she's freaking pregnant.  32 weeks.
Take out the last trimester - down to a 20-weeks span.  Let's just be conservative and be in the middle of that.  10 weeks plus the first 4.
I'll say again, anyone advocating for pre-14 week laws is politicizing this and being unreasonable.
14-15 weeks is enough time to find out you're pregnant and provides time to make a choice.  Removing the choice is garbage ideology.

This isn't difficult.  People on the fringes make it difficult.
My wife disagrees with me on the 15-week thing. 

I understand her as she has given birth.

(None of us here (presently anyway) have done that, even though we hear we could from some idiots. What is a woman?)

Women start feeling "kicks" at about 9 weeks, she tells me.

* I have a story to tell about this sometime.
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FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32272 on: May 28, 2024, 01:16:33 PM »
Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on May 28, 2024, 01:10:55 PM
By definition the two sides have to be hardliners about it.

If the Religious Right allows for abortion at any point beyond conception, they are saying there's a point at which that's not "a baby" and not deserving of protection. 
a portion of the religious right doesn't believe in using a rubber.  Pre-conception
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32273 on: May 28, 2024, 01:16:38 PM »
I have heard people opine that elective abortion should be permitted up until birth (38 weeks plus).  That is one "hard line" I personally find indefensible.

It's also not uncommon for a fertilized ovum to fail to implant, so banning it any time after "conception" is the other "hard line".  And some kinds of birth control allow conception without implantation.  Trying to ban birth control is another very hard line.

And of course some very religious people think abortion should be basically on demand, and some agmostics think it shouldn't, it's not a pure correlation.

But that issue is of course most closely aligned with religious beliefs.  Not much else really is these days, maybe capital punishment and a few other things.  "Taxing the rich", or not, isn't a religious thing, giving aid to Ukraine isn't either, giving it to Israel often is highly so.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32274 on: May 28, 2024, 01:18:37 PM »
Quote from: FearlessF on May 28, 2024, 01:00:13 PM
According to a 2023 National Public Opinion Reference Survey, 4% of US adults identify as atheists. This is up from 2% in 2011, and sociologists say that the percentage of atheists in the US has remained steady at 3–4% for over 80 years.
I personally think that understates the number of nonbelievers. "Atheist" is a scary term that a lot of people don't want to carry around their necks. If for no other reason than the PR for the word "atheist" is ruined by a bunch of, well, assholes. 

But currently 28% of Americans are "religiously unaffiliated." 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/religious-nones-more-than-1-in-4-u-s-adults-pew-research-center-report/

Quote
The majority of "nones" said they still believe either in God (though not necessarily God "as described in the Bible") or another higher power. About half of "nones" said they consider themselves to be "spiritual." Only 29% of "nones" completely rejected the notion that there is "any higher power or spiritual force in the universe,"

So maybe half of that 28% halfheartedly believe in "something", that they can't define. 29% of 28% (8% of Americans, not 4%) completely rejected the notion of a higher power. And I'm guessing the other group that's not "spiritual", another 6%, would be agnostic meaning they don't want to claim they're certain nothing exists, but they don't affirmatively believe in anything. 

So IMHO that gets you to about 14% that don't believe in God, and another 14% that believe in "something" but they're not sure what it is. 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32275 on: May 28, 2024, 01:22:29 PM »
Quote from: FearlessF on May 28, 2024, 01:07:06 PM
Ed Zachery my point about politicians
it's just one example of who they are and how they're influenced
religion probably is an influence less than many other examples as they go about their job
Except that we have something called the First Amendment, which states that government "can make no law respecting an Establishment of religion", which to me says that laws that are based solely upon codifying religious beliefs not okay.

Obviously there are areas of overlap; we make murder illegal for reasons that have nothing to do with the Christian fifth commandment. But the idea that you shouldn't be able to buy beer on Sunday because it's the Lord's Day is kinda clear violation of that idea. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32276 on: May 28, 2024, 01:23:00 PM »
To me, an atheist is convinced there is no God, or higher being.  I find that insupportable personally.  It's a belief in nothing, also based on no evidence.

An agnostic, to me, is someone who just isn't sure either way, which makes more sense to me.

Then of course there are folks who believe in some Higher Power but aren't sure what it comprises.  I can buy that I guess, it's a bit noncommital of course.

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FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32277 on: May 28, 2024, 01:23:23 PM »
As of April 2024, 20% of US adults identify as Catholic, making it one of the largest religious groups in the country. This is down from around 25% in 1960. The Catholic Church in the US has 71 million members, making it the largest Christian denomination in the country.

I'm guessing there are a fair number of Catholics that vote for the left

According to a 2023 Gallup poll, 68% of Americans identified with a Christian religion as of March 2024. This includes 33% Protestant, 22% Catholic, and 13% who identify with another Christian religion or simply as a "Christian".

So, if 68% of Americans just voted based on religious beliefs.  We wouldn't have a debate on abortion?

but, abortion is a religious debate?
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32278 on: May 28, 2024, 01:24:30 PM »
There are plenty of Catholics in favor of some kind of abortion.  
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32279 on: May 28, 2024, 01:25:30 PM »
Quote from: FearlessF on May 28, 2024, 01:16:33 PM
a portion of the religious right doesn't believe in using a rubber.  Pre-conception
Well as I've said before it's a numbers game. Indoctrination of children is an easier way to get your numbers up than adult conversion. So by not allowing your Church members to use contraception, you get a numerical advantage. 

But even then, I don't care if certain religions tell their members they can't use contraception, or drink alcohol, or eat bacon. You do you. It's when they tell ME that I can't use contraception, or drink alcohol, or eat bacon, that I've got an issue with it. 
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FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32280 on: May 28, 2024, 01:26:57 PM »
Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on May 28, 2024, 01:18:37 PM
I personally think that understates the number of nonbelievers. "Atheist" is a scary term that a lot of people don't want to carry around their necks. If for no other reason than the PR for the word "atheist" is ruined by a bunch of, well, assholes.

So IMHO that gets you to about 14% that don't believe in God, and another 14% that believe in "something" but they're not sure what it is.

so, at 28%, not going to win many elections.
not many options for OAM to not be upset with how they conduct themselves in the legislature 
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32281 on: May 28, 2024, 01:28:13 PM »
Yup, I think most here are fine with religious members having their own rules so long as they leave us alone, and the rules aren't something heinous like say child sacrifice.

Or cannibalism.  

I don't think the US has many laws remaining that are religiously based.  Some counties are still "dry", but I figure the bootleggers and sheriffs all like it that way.

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FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32282 on: May 28, 2024, 01:29:56 PM »
Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on May 28, 2024, 01:25:30 PM
Well as I've said before it's a numbers game. Indoctrination of children is an easier way to get your numbers up than adult conversion. So by not allowing your Church members to use contraception, you get a numerical advantage.

But even then, I don't care if certain religions tell their members they can't use contraception, or drink alcohol, or eat bacon. You do you. It's when they tell ME that I can't use contraception, or drink alcohol, or eat bacon, that I've got an issue with it.
yup, and that's not happening
I suppose prohibition was based on those crazy Christians that were foolish enough to be duped into believing in God.
but, it didn't last 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #32283 on: May 28, 2024, 01:30:45 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on May 28, 2024, 01:23:00 PM
To me, an atheist is convinced there is no God, or higher being.  I find that insupportable personally.  It's a belief in nothing, also based on no evidence.

An agnostic, to me, is someone who just isn't sure either way, which makes more sense to me.
Yeah, I've heard that argument before. All the way back in college when a buddy was trying to convince me that I was agnostic rather than atheist because I couldn't say that I "know" there is no god. I say that's BS. It's basically impossible to prove a negative. So I'm agnostic AND atheist. 

I call myself an atheist because I do not believe that there is any sort of supernatural power that exists that we might define as "God". I don't know. I am willing to be proven wrong, as I am about most things. But nothing in my life has come remotely close to that burden of proof, so here I still sit, a nonbeliever. I.e. an atheist. 
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