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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12390 on: February 08, 2022, 02:34:08 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 08, 2022, 02:33:04 PM
Ukraine is not a member of NATO and Article V doesn't apply.
Many of our NATO allies are extremely concerned about a Russian invasion of Ukraine.  Article 5 isn't the ONLY means of action, it's just the compulsory one.

Acting like a Russian invasion of Ukraine isn't a direct threat to NATO is silly.

The discussion of whether or not the USA currently benefits from the NATO alliance, or should still belong in NATO, is something else.  But this particular threat directly involves the US, as long as we're active and willing members of NATO.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12391 on: February 08, 2022, 02:39:10 PM »
It's a direct threat to Ukraine, it could be an indirect threat to NATO down the road, maybe.

I'm for some aid to Ukraine and no more.
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utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12392 on: February 08, 2022, 02:48:57 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 08, 2022, 02:39:10 PM
It's a direct threat to Ukraine, it could be an indirect threat to NATO down the road, maybe.

I'm for some aid to Ukraine and no more.
Preventing Russian westward expansion is the primary reason NATO exists.  So, no, it's not an indirect threat to NATO's mission.

Again, like I said, remaining a NATO alliance member might or might not be beneficial to the USA.  Some here have argued that NATO has outlived its usefulness and that's certainly possible.  But that's an entirely different discussion.

As long as the US remains an active member of NATO, then this IS a problem that is right there on our front doorstep.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12393 on: February 08, 2022, 07:03:14 PM »
I guess I don't see that as the proper function of NATO, maybe I'm too limited.  And preventing a Russian spread west pretty much would mean military conflict, which would be bad.  I do not want US forces on the ground in Ukraine, at all.  And I realize this is not yet our policy.

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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12394 on: February 08, 2022, 07:36:46 PM »
Nato can't even keep the peace between UTee and Cincydawg. 
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utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12395 on: February 08, 2022, 07:52:51 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on February 08, 2022, 07:03:14 PM
 I do not want US forces on the ground in Ukraine, at all.  And I realize this is not yet our policy.


Well I certainly agree with you there, my personal opinion is that I don't want US forces there, either.  
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12396 on: February 08, 2022, 08:13:10 PM »
Team 'Murica:  World Police
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12397 on: February 09, 2022, 07:22:50 AM »
Then what steps can NATO take beyond threatening sanctions?  We can ship some military gear to Ukraine, which has been done to an extent.  Fundamentally it comes down to how much portions of Ukraine want to be part of Greater Russia, or remain independent.  I don't know the answer to that.  If some portion is really populated with mostly russians, well, off you go.
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12398 on: February 09, 2022, 07:40:28 AM »
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12399 on: February 09, 2022, 07:46:09 AM »
Overall, sure, but how about is some bordering regions like the Donbass?

The Sudetenland was in fact mostly German, carved out after WW One.  Poland in 1939 of course was not.

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Temp430

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12400 on: February 09, 2022, 07:52:43 AM »
I think Putin wants all of Ukraine for Russia as was the case when they were the USSR.  After Ukraine there's Moldova to the West which has a large Russian population.Its starting to feel like a Russian Anschluss.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12401 on: February 09, 2022, 07:57:49 AM »
I'm sure he wants that, I'm not sure what he's willing to do to achieve that.  I THINK he's going to threaten military action and actually DO stuff that is much more covert.
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12402 on: February 09, 2022, 08:12:45 AM »
"Living in Chicago, you’re going to fear for your safety regardless whether it’s going to work or coming home from the store," the woman, identified as Lena, told the outlet. "You can’t even go to a gas station to get gas or pick your child up without worrying about that. So I just try to stay alert and watch my surroundings while I’m outside."
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NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #12403 on: February 09, 2022, 08:13:58 AM »
Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on February 08, 2022, 02:26:41 PM
Yeah, the problem with making a credible threat in order to get the other side to give up concessions...

...is what you do if they don't give up any concessions.

Do you then have to carry through on the threat you never wanted to actually carry through in the first place? Backing NATO into a corner is a smart play if you get them to give you something... If you don't, you've put yourself in a corner because not following through on the threat makes you look weak and you'll never get concessions in the future because they know your threat may not be something you're willing to follow through on.
This is a play by Putin knowing who is currently occupying the White House. Ask yourself why he didn't do this while Trump was in office.  Because Putin believed that if he pushed Trump into corner, Trump might come out swinging. IMHO, he feels that Biden is a push over and will cave long before he has to follow through with any of this threats. 
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