header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

 (Read 3045845 times)

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31226
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33138 on: June 17, 2024, 03:52:59 PM »
Buncha bigoted xenophobes.  They should be called out on the international stage.
They are not the only country with strict rules.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 83124
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10655
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33140 on: June 17, 2024, 04:16:38 PM »
Right. I know you're not necessarily addressing higher skilled immigrants, but you have before, and have said at least as it relates to government programs (such as SS/Medicare) it's not a clear economic benefit unless they come in basically right at the start of their working careers, because they'll never have enough time paying in compared to what they get taking out. An engineer who immigrates and naturalizes at the age of 43 might be a net positive until he retires, but probably won't balance out his government outlays in retirement the way a native-born engineer who starts their career at 22 will do.

My entire point here is you're conflating two things; economic value and crime. Crime is basically universally a cost. If you think that the primary numbers of immigration (low-skill) is a cost, and that maybe the high-skilled is close to a wash economically either way, then you already think immigration is a net economic negative. Therefore, adding some qualifier of 'ZERO immigrant crime is the only acceptable answer' is assuming the antecedent, i.e. that your opinion of the economic value being net negative is already true. If you thought the net economic value was positive, even slightly so, you'd be asking "okay, how much crime is acceptable for the good stuff."
As I said before, we can't even have this conversation until we know who/how many are coming in. We don't and haven't for decades.

Social Security is an economic negative even for the average American. You can't make that up on volume.

That gets to the quality issue. Your 43 year old engineer *MIGHT* be a net positive if he is in a seriously lucrative field.

The New Zealand restriction to <45 makes sense in a welfare state because you have to maximize productive years in order to pay for non-productive years.

Natives start paying into Social Security with their first paycheck from (frequently) Some part-time HS job such as flipping burgers at McDonald's. So that hypothetical 43 year old engineer has a LOT of ground to make up as compared to a 43 year old native engineer who paid in:
  • ~8 years of PT/Intern wages
  • 21 years as an engineer
I realize that the first eight for the native were low amounts but they've also compounded for 21-29 years so they aren't zero.

All of this would be a fascinating policy discussion but so long as the border is insecure, it is a moot point.


medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10655
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33141 on: June 17, 2024, 04:45:58 PM »
On the taking less welfare thing:

My favorite immigration related writer is Mickey Kaus. I like his stuff specifically because he comes at the issue from a liberal persuasion.

He recently posted this:

https://twitter.com/kausmickey/status/1801139071051595905?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1801139071051595905%7Ctwgr%5E86677aa0bb68418fd40500bf354578652d2b0373%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.kausfiles.com%2Fpage%2F2%2F

Most conservatives and libertarians don't put much thought into income inequality bit I believe that it is a MAJOR problem in our society.

Stop and think about this for a minute:
How many of my upper half (even Fro) college-educated fellow posters spend significant amounts of time with social equals (ie, not employees) from the lower half?

In practice America is divided sharply along this line. The college educated almost universally get married before they have kids, and raise their kids as a two parent team. Additionally, as this divide becomes multi-generational, the upper half are also MUCH more likely to have college educated siblings and parents as well.

Meanwhile for the lower half, marriage and college are largely seen as out of reach. Single moms with a HS education or less struggle to raise kids on their own and because this is a multi-generational issue most of them also do not have college educated parents or siblings to ask for help.

Consider it from the perspective of the kid. Most of our kids have two parents and they both have degrees and they also frequently have college educated aunts, uncles, and grandparents. On the other side of 'the tracks' the kids have a HS dropout mom, a list of suspects for paternity, and nobody in their family has ever been to a college graduation.

Life is already tough enough for the unskilled laborers from the latter category, why do we insist on making it tougher by importing extra competition for their jobs?

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 83124
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33142 on: June 17, 2024, 04:57:37 PM »
Yes, Immigration Hurts American Workers - POLITICO Magazine

Immigration redistributes wealth from those who compete with immigrants to those who use immigrants—from the employee to the employer.

The U.S.-Mexico Border: How Americans View the Situation, Its Causes and Consequences | Pew Research Center

Just 18% say the U.S. government is doing a good job dealing with the large number of migrants at the border, while 80% say it is doing a bad job, including 45% who say it is doing a very bad job.
  • Republicans’ views are overwhelmingly negative (89% say it’s doing a bad job), as they have been since Joe Biden became president.
  • 73% of Democrats also give the government negative ratings, the highest share recorded during Biden’s presidency.



Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 83124
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33143 on: June 17, 2024, 04:58:45 PM »
I couldn't find any opinion poll broken out by wealth, but I feel fairly certain a lot of wealthy folks are against illegal immigration and think the border should be more secure.


betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14569
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33144 on: June 17, 2024, 05:02:25 PM »
As I said before, we can't even have this conversation until we know who/how many are coming in. We don't and haven't for decades.

Yeah, which is why (although you won't like this) I've long advocated for an actual guest worker program. Not even a "path to citizenship" guest worker program, because I don't think they all want to be citizens, now or eventually. But merely something that allows the majority who come here for economic opportunity to be counted [and tracked], which would immediately cut the illegal border crossings to mostly people who we don't want here. 

It's easier to secure a border when you have a more robust legal option for people to come. 

Quote
I realize that the first eight for the native were low amounts but they've also compounded for 21-29 years so they aren't zero.
This just isn't true. That money was already spent and all that exists are IOUs drawing upon future taxpayers. 

I know my picking of nits on the SSTF is something people don't like, but every time I hear a statement like this I have to push back. 

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21823
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33145 on: June 17, 2024, 05:03:41 PM »
On the whole immigration issue:

In the past, @OrangeAfroMan has pointed out that we (the group of us who post here) are a fairly wealthy group. I guess a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while because on this point he is correct. We have @Cincydawg talking about flights to France, @847badgerfan talking about his yacht, and nearly all of us have at least a college degree. Many here have advanced degrees and it also seems to me that we have a high percentage of people with serious degrees such as STEM fields.

Nationally only about 1/2 of Americans have degrees and a sizable percentage of them have 'soft' degrees that contribute little or nothing to their employment prospects.

For us (described above) we get immediate benefits of unskilled immigration in the form of lower labor costs. Most of us purchase that labor indirectly but we still benefit.

That is fine for those of us in that top half. Please don't screw over your less fortunate fellow citizens with even MORE competition for the jobs they are capable of when their employment prospects are increasingly dire in the modern 'knowledge based' economy.

Construction workers have seen their real wages fall for decades. Yet I'm sure that Max will point me to a study that claims the laws of supply and demand have been suspended and this has nothing to do with all the immigrants working in construction.
I don't think you give a damn about this part, you're just trying to mention something others here care about.
Poor, undocumented immigrants aren't taking jobs away from very poor/homeless people.  

I'll just use what's around me to illustrate.
There's tons of homeless all around Phoenix, especially on the west side.  They probably don't even allow them in Scottsdale.
These homeless people aren't gathered outside Home Depot.  They're on street corners, asking for hand-outs.  This is a big difference.  
If construction companies need skilled workers, they have to pay for those.  If they just want to hand a guy a hammer, YES, they'll opt for the cheaper option (the illegal immigrant).  But there is no other option.  There is not a group of homeless guys and a group of immigrants standing outside Home Depot.

It's a blatant false equivalency.  Homeless people grew up here and have a baseline of work/money that is above impoverished Central and South Americans' baseline.  Hell, they don't have a baseline.  They believe working hard will yield a better life.  One could even say American homeless people are wise to that half-truth and that's why they are standing on street corners.  That's not my point, but it could be argued.

Anyway, maybe just try to make points you believe in?  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier


OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21823
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33147 on: June 17, 2024, 05:05:13 PM »
I couldn't find any opinion poll broken out by wealth, but I feel fairly certain a lot of wealthy folks are against illegal immigration and think the border should be more secure.


If the prices of produce skyrocketing doesn't affect you, yeah, you're probably in this camp.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 83124
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33148 on: June 17, 2024, 05:07:12 PM »
I don't think you give a damn about this part, you're just trying to mention something others here care about.
Poor, undocumented immigrants aren't taking jobs away from very poor/homeless people. 
He didn't claim they did.

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21823
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33149 on: June 17, 2024, 05:07:25 PM »
All of this would be more fixable if the legal immigration system was fixed.  It's broken.  I've mentioned this before, but that office, maybe 8-10 years ago, was still paper-based and the floors of the building it was in were badly bowed due to the weight.
I assume it's all been converted to electronic files, but it's never been made a priority by anyone and is a badly inefficient system.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10655
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33150 on: June 17, 2024, 05:08:11 PM »
I know my picking of nits on the SSTF is something people don't like, but every time I hear a statement like this I have to push back.
I know that there isn't actually any money in the SSTF but that doesn't really make any difference to my argument for the Time Value of Money to apply here.

Both when you and whem I turned 14 the government was running deficits and financing them with debt. Additional taxes collected at that time reduced the need to borrow. Ie, taxes received in 1989 (I was 14) and the mid 1990's (I think you are ~5 years younger) are worth more than taxes received in 2024.

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21823
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #33151 on: June 17, 2024, 05:09:01 PM »
He didn't claim they did.
Sigh.
You're like a child.

No, he didn't specify homeless.  But he did say poor/without a degree.  
Guess what happens when you're poor/without a degree and lose your job and/or can't find a job?

Just connect the dots, son.  You can do it.  Right?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.