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Topic: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)

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Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #224 on: April 08, 2020, 12:30:29 PM »
We are all for feeding hungry kids.  The issue would be with abuse, as usual, but abuse is inherent with any give away.


SFBadger96

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #225 on: April 08, 2020, 12:33:08 PM »
People think of the Civil War as a slavery thing (and it was, no doubt). What many people don't see is how the Constitution fundamentally changed with the 14th Amendment immediately following the Civil War. The 14th Amendment gave the federal government the authority to intervene against the states for violating citizens' rights, and guaranteed those rights across the states, giving the federal government much more power over how the states operate. Ever since its passage, the Supreme Court has been trying to define just how much the federal government can intervene in what had been state-level questions.

A related, but different question is the electoral college. It, too, has roots in slavery (but not exclusively so). But in the modern United States, its impact is similar--with the slavery question removed--it provides the smaller states with a level of representation in the federal government that protects them from the "tyranny of the majority." This is a valid concern. To begin with, constituents who don't think they have any power will not respect democratic decisions, even when made democratically. Conversely, those who believe that they have power in the process are much more apt to accept decisions that go against them. So allowing smaller states additional representation through the Senate and the electoral college provides them representation that otherwise they might not have. Personally, I think the electoral college could be tweaked to avoid a tyranny of the minority that many people feel is in place right now, where smaller states (and far fewer people) have what feels like far too much power. One option would be to take away the additional two "senator" votes from the electoral college. 

It's true (in my view) that too much democracy is undemocratic. In states with robust direct initiatives (like California) we see the poor governance that comes from having popular votes on complex issues. A good example is prison/sentencing reform. This is a hard thing to tackle, and impossible to boil down into the kind of soundbites--and legislation--that lend themselves to popular vote (as opposed to, say, do we or do we not want the death penalty in our state, which is a simpler thing to legislate one way or the other). The essence of our government is representative democracy--electing people we believe in to make these kinds of difficult, complicated decisions. That leads to one of my biggest revelations in voting behavior: being able to trust someone is more important to me than the specifics of their political positions (not that those don't matter--unquestionably they do). This is no panacea--politics is hard business, and all people, whether politicians or not, change their views from time to time.

As a plug for the local politicians--this is the area of your closest representative democracy. Pay attention to what they are doing and engage with them. They make more decisions than you realize that impact your day-to-day life, and they are the most responsive politicians you will ever meet. And, they are, generally speaking, the minor leagues for higher office. So if you want good state and federal officials, elect good local ones.

Finally, I was amused by the mayor comment above because my wife presently is a mayor. ;)

FearlessF

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #226 on: April 08, 2020, 12:35:08 PM »
Did you vote for FDR with Truman as his VP in 1944?


Then, in 1946 the school lunch program was made official when President Harry S. Truman signed the National School Lunch Act. The act, written by Senator Richard B. Russell Jr said, “It is hereby declared to be the policy of Congress, as a measure of national security, to safeguard the health and well-being of the Nation’s children and to encourage the domestic consumption of nutritious agricultural commodities and other food, by assisting the States, through grants-in aid and other means, in providing an adequate supply of food and other facilities for the establishment, maintenance, operation and expansion of nonprofit school lunch programs.”

– Sec. 2 The National School Lunch Act, 1946
nothing says free here

wasn't free in the 70s and it wasn't free in the 2000's
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SFBadger96

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #227 on: April 08, 2020, 12:35:50 PM »
Abuse is one of the big reasons for complicated laws. We set process in place to avoid abuse, and we add checks and balances, and accountability. It will never be enough to stop all abuse, but it does stop a lot. But it also adds complications and paychecks/pensions, to 847's point. 

SFBadger96

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #228 on: April 08, 2020, 12:44:43 PM »
nothing says free here

wasn't free in the 70s and it wasn't free in the 2000's
Actually, I think you're wrong about this. It is free and reduced lunch, and has been for a long time, though I'm sure the number of people participating has fluctuated.

https://schoolnutrition.org/AboutSNA/HistoryMilestones/

Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #229 on: April 08, 2020, 12:48:41 PM »
Abuse is one of the big reasons for complicated laws. We set process in place to avoid abuse, and we add checks and balances, and accountability. It will never be enough to stop all abuse, but it does stop a lot. But it also adds complications and paychecks/pensions, to 847's point.
It also generates bureaucracy to check on everything.  One notion I have is to give everyone UBI and end every other kind of aid program at the Federal level.

Shut down nearly all of the bureaucracy in DC and just cut checks (which we kind of are doing now).

And yes, much would get wasted.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #230 on: April 08, 2020, 12:51:29 PM »
Poor families have the option of free/reduced lunch.  If you make a certain amount, you have to pay full-price.  
The problem with free/reduced lunch isn't abuse, it's getting the shitty parents to even fill out the form to get the free/reduced lunch.  Some parents are freakin' ghosts, when it comes to getting the paperwork done for anything and everything we try to do to help their kids.
Whether it's for free lunch, speech services, or anything and everything else, these irresponsible people pumping out children can't be bothered to fill out a form.
As far as delivering meals goes, or providing them over the summer, that's likely (but I'm not sure) a Title 1 thing.  If the school and its zone are classified Title 1 (ie: poor), that includes a whole separate pile of money.
.
The largest problem with school lunch is the HEALTHY party.  School lunches IN THE U.S. are designed to provide calories, not a healthy meal.  Nachos are a main entree.  Ketchup is a vegetable.  Chili fries are a main entree.  The kids probably like it, it's not a taste issue, but we're feeding them salt, sugar, and calories.  Salad is provided, but optional.  Fruit is provided, but it's all canned.  
.
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rolltidefan

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #231 on: April 08, 2020, 12:51:34 PM »
People think of the Civil War as a slavery thing (and it was, no doubt). What many people don't see is how the Constitution fundamentally changed with the 14th Amendment immediately following the Civil War. The 14th Amendment gave the federal government the authority to intervene against the states for violating citizens' rights, and guaranteed those rights across the states, giving the federal government much more power over how the states operate. Ever since its passage, the Supreme Court has been trying to define just how much the federal government can intervene in what had been state-level questions.

A related, but different question is the electoral college. It, too, has roots in slavery (but not exclusively so). But in the modern United States, its impact is similar--with the slavery question removed--it provides the smaller states with a level of representation in the federal government that protects them from the "tyranny of the majority." This is a valid concern. To begin with, constituents who don't think they have any power will not respect democratic decisions, even when made democratically. Conversely, those who believe that they have power in the process are much more apt to accept decisions that go against them. So allowing smaller states additional representation through the Senate and the electoral college provides them representation that otherwise they might not have. Personally, I think the electoral college could be tweaked to avoid a tyranny of the minority that many people feel is in place right now, where smaller states (and far fewer people) have what feels like far too much power. One option would be to take away the additional two "senator" votes from the electoral college.

It's true (in my view) that too much democracy is undemocratic. In states with robust direct initiatives (like California) we see the poor governance that comes from having popular votes on complex issues. A good example is prison/sentencing reform. This is a hard thing to tackle, and impossible to boil down into the kind of soundbites--and legislation--that lend themselves to popular vote (as opposed to, say, do we or do we not want the death penalty in our state, which is a simpler thing to legislate one way or the other). The essence of our government is representative democracy--electing people we believe in to make these kinds of difficult, complicated decisions. That leads to one of my biggest revelations in voting behavior: being able to trust someone is more important to me than the specifics of their political positions (not that those don't matter--unquestionably they do). This is no panacea--politics is hard business, and all people, whether politicians or not, change their views from time to time.

As a plug for the local politicians--this is the area of your closest representative democracy. Pay attention to what they are doing and engage with them. They make more decisions than you realize that impact your day-to-day life, and they are the most responsive politicians you will ever meet. And, they are, generally speaking, the minor leagues for higher office. So if you want good state and federal officials, elect good local ones.

Finally, I was amused by the mayor comment above because my wife presently is a mayor. ;)
well said and i agree, particularly with the last part.

if the populous put as much attention into their state and local elections as they do into the president, we'd all be better off.

FearlessF

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #232 on: April 08, 2020, 12:58:49 PM »
Poor families have the option of free/reduced lunch.  If you make a certain amount, you have to pay full-price. 

poor must have a higher threshold than in the past
not surprising

it's just odd to me that if a kid sin't in school for a few days that kid doesn't get a meal or two

I suppose it takes a village and some of my money
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #233 on: April 08, 2020, 01:00:28 PM »
People think of the Civil War as a slavery thing (and it was, no doubt). What many people don't see is how the Constitution fundamentally changed with the 14th Amendment immediately following the Civil War. The 14th Amendment gave the federal government the authority to intervene against the states for violating citizens' rights, and guaranteed those rights across the states, giving the federal government much more power over how the states operate. Ever since its passage, the Supreme Court has been trying to define just how much the federal government can intervene in what had been state-level questions.
It's long been my preference that we should have two things:

  • Individual rights should be protected on the widest possible level--preferably nationally. 
  • Government powers should be devolved to the lowest possible level--state at best but county/city would be even better.

As you point out, the 14th Amendment "incorporated" the Bill of Rights against state / local action. I think that's a good thing. That's an area where federalism fails--when governments can discriminate/abuse individual rights at the local level, the Bill of Rights might as well be useless. 

But as for the second part, that goes back to my large state / small state point earlier. The idea of federalism is that each State can make the policies that best meet their needs--because the needs of California and the needs of Wyoming aren't identical. 

Of course, drawing the line on which policies do and don't *need* to be federal is hard. For example, things like environmental protections... It doesn't make sense that Wyoming would have a policy allowing despoiling the environment and Montana would limit that, but it's also true that things like air quality problems are much different in Los Angeles than in Siskiyou county, so maybe things like auto emission standards might need to be different by county, rather than state-level. So standards on dumping contaminants in rivers might be better to be national while auto emission particulate standards and testing requirements don't need to be.


Quote
It's true (in my view) that too much democracy is undemocratic. In states with robust direct initiatives (like California) we see the poor governance that comes from having popular votes on complex issues. A good example is prison/sentencing reform. This is a hard thing to tackle, and impossible to boil down into the kind of soundbites--and legislation--that lend themselves to popular vote (as opposed to, say, do we or do we not want the death penalty in our state, which is a simpler thing to legislate one way or the other).
Of course, one area that screwed California two ways was the gas tax increase.

The legislature increased the gas tax, and it pissed everyone off, such that we got an initiative on the ballot "Prop 6" to repeal the increase. Of note, the tax hadn't gone into effect yet, so the repeal would occur before any revenue had been generated.

But in the run-up to the election, I saw CONSTANT commercials saying that if we enacted "Prop 6", it would essentially be the end of the world and that first responders would have no money and we'd effectively all die. And it failed. Note that in all the advertisements I saw, over MONTHS, advocating against Prop 6, not a single one mentioned that it would repeal the gas tax. They didn't even say what Prop 6 was about, only that if you voted for it, you must hate first responders.

Because the people who were slated to receive that tax revenue had HUGE coffers to advertise, while the people who were against the tax increase were basically individuals and small taxpayer watchdog groups who didn't have anywhere near the same. 

I don't think Prop 6 failed because Californians truly believed that first responders, who hadn't yet seen a dime of that revenue, would suddenly be decimated. I think Prop 6 failed because people are easily led, and didn't even understand what they were voting for/against.

SFBadger96

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #234 on: April 08, 2020, 01:09:17 PM »
It also generates bureaucracy to check on everything.  One notion I have is to give everyone UBI and end every other kind of aid program at the Federal level.

Shut down nearly all of the bureaucracy in DC and just cut checks (which we kind of are doing now).

And yes, much would get wasted.
What would be the inflationary impact? I think there's an economics argument that says this would just result in higher prices for everything, thereby not actually solving the social problems its aimed at.

Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #235 on: April 08, 2020, 01:30:07 PM »
What would be the inflationary impact? I think there's an economics argument that says this would just result in higher prices for everything, thereby not actually solving the social problems its aimed at.
In my model, spending would be flat, it's just that nearly all of the money would go to citizens, instead of bureaucracies in DC trying to check to make sure fraud and abuse are as low as possible.  It would clear out enormous amounts of paperwork.  It would NOT solve social problems very well, but I'd argue the current approach doesn't either.

I think it would need a means test.  No HUD, no SNAP., no Welfare, no Medicaid, no nothing, but a simple check (or debit card).  My Department of Education would also be simple, a block grant to school systems with an inadequate tax base.  Here's a check, bye.  If they waste it, so be it.

Mdot21

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #236 on: April 08, 2020, 01:52:29 PM »
Bernie Sanders bends to the wishes of the Democratic Party and drops out. 

Can’t wait to see the Trump v. Biden debates. That’s going to be must see tv. Does not matter which way you lean. That’s just going to be like watching a car crash on live tv.

Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #237 on: April 08, 2020, 01:56:30 PM »
I have a quarter notion the Democratic nominee with be Cuomo.

 

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