header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)

 (Read 33933 times)

SFBadger96

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1243
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #644 on: May 05, 2020, 05:15:43 PM »
The particular cop in question has no doubt that there are bad apples who do bad things among the boys in blue. He knows that there is injustice committed by police officers. His point is that overwhelmingly cops don't arrest someone without a really good reason to do so. He is also--like so many people in the criminal justice system--jaded by his day to day work, primarily interacting with bad people who do bad things. He has his biases, and--unsurprisingly--generally believes in his colleagues as professionals who do the right thing. That doesn't mean he doesn't believe there are bad cops--he knows there are--but his initial instinct is to believe the cop, not the suspect.

As likely one of this board's more liberal contributors, I can say with absolute certainty that this particular cop is the kind of person I want policing my streets. He's not infallible, nor cured of any bias (we all have bias, like it or not). I take his view on this subject as a reference point, nothing more. The police need to be policed, too, and like many organizations that profess to regulate themselves, they do have blind spots with regard to their own. This is particularly problematic when trying to address societal trends that are hard to pin on any one person, but that show up very clearly in statistics for larger populations. That doesn't make them bad people, it makes them people.  

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18835
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #645 on: May 05, 2020, 05:35:39 PM »
 be accountable
Why should they?  No one else seems to be.



The biggest perceived issue with the cops is the idea (fair or not) that the good ones protect the bad ones.  Whether it's true or not, that's the "perception is reality" of it.  


God, I hate that phrase.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12166
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #646 on: May 05, 2020, 06:25:29 PM »
This is where I'm at. 
I know I blah-blah a lot on here about politics, but it all just is what it is.  Yeah, we have a *&@#&$ in the WH now.  And yeah, the Dems nominated a guy who suffers from post-withitness.  Yeah, the system is broken if these are the 2 options.

I tend to hang out with people a little younger than me, mostly women (teachers), mostly liberal.  They REALLY get after it during political discussions and I'm just like, "yep, it's the will of the masses."  Now don't get me wrong, I will verbally curb-stomp on "the masses," but as I said - it is what it is.
I used to write for [and eventually run] a political group blog. I put in a lot of time. I tried to research and make sure anything I wrote was well-supported and meaningful. I even tried to make sure that my voice, my take, on issues was unique--or else why bother writing about them?

But there's a certain point, when you've put your time and effort into writing 2000 well-researched and well-supported words on a subject and you don't get any interaction. Or worse, you get the dreaded "tl;dr". While you watch a co-blogger write a 300 word post throwing out red meat and it's lapped up like it's oxygen on the moon.

I gave up. I still have as much anger and conviction about politics as I did then. But I've lost all faith in my fellow man. I realize that my government will be selected by people who give more thought to who they vote for American Idol than they vote for POTUS.

I chose to stop tilting at windmills, and if the world burns, well so be it.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71406
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #647 on: May 05, 2020, 06:30:04 PM »
Our Founders feared democracy almost as much as a monarchy for this reason.

They really envisioned a kind of oligarchy, with people like them in charge.  The amazing thing is how little they agreed among themselves about anything.

Aaron Burr, Hamilton, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Marshall ... John Marshall really despised Jefferson.

We should be amazed and thankful the Constitution is as good as it is.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12166
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #648 on: May 05, 2020, 06:34:35 PM »
Our Founders feared democracy almost as much as a monarchy for this reason.

They really envisioned a kind of oligarchy, with people like them in charge.  The amazing thing is how little they agreed among themselves about anything.

Aaron Burr, Hamilton, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Marshall ... John Marshall really despised Jefferson.

We should be amazed and thankful the Constitution is as good as it is.
I think people underestimate Hamilton wildly... He was a lot of the force behind Washington, who was an eminent statesman but I don't think really was a policy wonk of any stature. And he followed the same role with Adams. 

Jefferson despised Hamilton, and Madison--who wrote the Federalist Papers with Hamilton justifying the Constitution--felt the same. He felt betrayed that Hamilton was using the Constitution they'd worked on to expand the central government far beyond what Madison envisioned.

The US Federal Government wouldn't be what it is today--for better or worse--without Alexander Hamilton.

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7849
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #649 on: May 05, 2020, 06:37:26 PM »
The particular cop in question has no doubt that there are bad apples who do bad things among the boys in blue. He knows that there is injustice committed by police officers. His point is that overwhelmingly cops don't arrest someone without a really good reason to do so. He is also--like so many people in the criminal justice system--jaded by his day to day work, primarily interacting with bad people who do bad things. He has his biases, and--unsurprisingly--generally believes in his colleagues as professionals who do the right thing. That doesn't mean he doesn't believe there are bad cops--he knows there are--but his initial instinct is to believe the cop, not the suspect.

As likely one of this board's more liberal contributors, I can say with absolute certainty that this particular cop is the kind of person I want policing my streets. He's not infallible, nor cured of any bias (we all have bias, like it or not). I take his view on this subject as a reference point, nothing more. The police need to be policed, too, and like many organizations that profess to regulate themselves, they do have blind spots with regard to their own. This is particularly problematic when trying to address societal trends that are hard to pin on any one person, but that show up very clearly in statistics for larger populations. That doesn't make them bad people, it makes them people. 
I feel that, and the dynamic they're in is certianly a tough one. They're part of a system that says if they deprive a person of freedom, it doesn't necessarily mean it was a just act. But the problem is if they profess these feelings, that anyone arrested is guilty, it in essence delegitimizes the system at large. When the people enforcing the laws say "this structure beyond me is a bunch of hooey," it casts doubt on the system overall. 

Maybe it's intractable. If you're in that world long enough, you simply lose a sense for what the world can be. That's a job where an overflowing level of empathy should be a crucial tool. But instead, it seems to often get beat out of people by the day to day work. 

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #650 on: May 05, 2020, 07:24:37 PM »
I think that the members of any high-stress, highly organized occupation tend to emotionally distance themselves from the rest of the population.  The armed forces are certainly an example of this, and so are police forces.  So are emergency rooms.
Play Like a Champion Today

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14329
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #651 on: May 05, 2020, 07:30:49 PM »
Our Founders feared democracy almost as much as a monarchy for this reason.

They really envisioned a kind of oligarchy, with people like them in charge.  The amazing thing is how little they agreed among themselves about anything.

Aaron Burr, Hamilton, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Marshall ... John Marshall really despised Jefferson.

We should be amazed and thankful the Constitution is as good as it is.
We’ve never lived in a true democracy. Representative republic.

And the founders wanted an oligarchy- but instead now we’ve got soft form of fascism. Thanks Neoliberals!

“When fascism comes to America it will not be in brown and black shirts, it will not be in jack boots, it will be in Nike shoes and smiley shirts.”

You’re right about one thing man- thank god for that constitution. Most beautiful thing EVER written in the history of man.

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #652 on: May 05, 2020, 07:51:06 PM »
We’ve never lived in a true democracy. Representative republic.

And the founders wanted an oligarchy- but instead now we’ve got soft form of fascism. Thanks Neoliberals!

“When fascism comes to America it will not be in brown and black shirts, it will not be in jack boots, it will be in Nike shoes and smiley shirts.”

You’re right about one thing man- thank god for that constitution. Most beautiful thing EVER written in the history of man.
But it was meant for a moral (and also religious) people.  We aren't that today.  Too many of us today want a tyrant, so long as he's (or she's) a tyrant who will impose the views we like on the "others."  How many people cheered Barack Obama when he said he'd do what Congress wouldn't, because he had a cellphone and a pen?  How many people cheer Donald Trump when urges a crowd to throw "them" out of the arena?
I can't recall who made this formulation, but it's about where "civic virtue" is necessary in different forms of government, and it goes something like this.  In a monarchy, the monarch has to be virtuous.  In a plutocracy, the rich have to be virtuous.  In an aristocracy, the aristocrats have to be virtuous.  In a democracy, the people have to be virtuous.  But "the people" are always susceptible to becoming the mob and virtue is not a trait of mobs.
Play Like a Champion Today

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7849
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #653 on: May 05, 2020, 08:00:59 PM »
But it was meant for a moral (and also religious) people.  We aren't that today.  Too many of us today want a tyrant, so long as he's (or she's) a tyrant who will impose the views we like on the "others."  How many people cheered Barack Obama when he said he'd do what Congress wouldn't, because he had a cellphone and a pen?  How many people cheer Donald Trump when urges a crowd to throw "them" out of the arena?
I can't recall who made this formulation, but it's about where "civic virtue" is necessary in different forms of government, and it goes something like this.  In a monarchy, the monarch has to be virtuous.  In a plutocracy, the rich have to be virtuous.  In an aristocracy, the aristocrats have to be virtuous.  In a democracy, the people have to be virtuous.  But "the people" are always susceptible to becoming the mob and virtue is not a trait of mobs.
Weren't that back then either. 

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13078
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #654 on: May 05, 2020, 08:09:56 PM »
Sign me up to complain about the lack of democracy. Overtly suppressing democratic outcomes makes people lose faith in the legitimacy of the government.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14329
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #655 on: May 05, 2020, 08:23:20 PM »
Quote
"But it was meant for a moral (and also religious) people.  We aren't that today.  Too many of us today want a tyrant, so long as he's (or she's) a tyrant who will impose the views we like on the "others."  How many people cheered Barack Obama when he said he'd do what Congress wouldn't, because he had a cellphone and a pen?  How many people cheer Donald Trump when urges a crowd to throw "them" out of the arena?
I can't recall who made this formulation, but it's about where "civic virtue" is necessary in different forms of government, and it goes something like this.  In a monarchy, the monarch has to be virtuous.  In a plutocracy, the rich have to be virtuous.  In an aristocracy, the aristocrats have to be virtuous.  In a democracy, the people have to be virtuous.  But "the people" are always susceptible to becoming the mob and virtue is not a trait of mobs."




Not buying the religious aspect of the argument. I'd say we should just leave religion out of government and discussion of government. Like the founders. Jefferson wasn't exactly religious. And not sure how moral slavery and women being essentially property of a man were....'cause yeah that shit happened back then. Not really moral.



I don't know. I think it all just comes down to tribalism. No different than people rooting for their favorite college football teams. "Red team awesome, blue team SUCKKSSSSS!" People just pick the democrat or republican team and cheer on no matter what.



I actually voted for Obama first time around because he caught me hook line and sinker on all the "hopey changey" (as Sarah Palin would say) - bullshit. I wasn't going to vote for McCain- not with his long horrific track record. Obama didn't really have a track record as he had been a state legislator and had only been a US senator for like a year and a half before he ran for President. Little did I know the guys entire first cabinet was handpicked by CitiBank. Thank god for WikiLeaks revealing that info many years later.


The same people who protested in the streets and condemned W for being a corporate stooge, for the Iraq war (rightfully), for black ops capture and torture programs (rightfully), drone strikes (rightfully) - pretty much never said a god damn word about Obama continuing and expanding most of the worst of Bush's policies. Not a god damn word. The guy made Bush's tax cuts permanent. He took the US from 2 wars to 7. Increased drone strikes by something insane like 4,000% or something like that. Pushed through the biggest corporate bailout in history which was completely geared towards Wall Street and completely screwed over Main Street- which saw 95% of the income gains go to the top 1% during the recovery- NEVER prosecuted a single person involved in the entire financial crisis- he deported just as many if not more people than Mr. Trump. Destroyed Libya and turned it into a failed state where slavery markets exist now. Did nothing about 5.1 million families losing their house to foreclosure. Not people. Families. The foreclosure relief program was designed to help bankers, not homeowners. He EXPANDED spying powers and the security state. He prosecuted more whistle-blowers under the espionage act than EVERY PRESIDENT IN HISTORY COMBINED.



None of this was hardly ever mentioned. And it blows my god damn mind.These two parties are basically the same side of the coin, very little differences to be honest with you

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #656 on: May 05, 2020, 08:44:20 PM »
Weren't that back then either.
The expectation of civic virtue was a cultural norm.  It's like the back side of the Moon today.
Play Like a Champion Today

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37476
  • Liked:
Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #657 on: May 05, 2020, 09:26:21 PM »


None of this was hardly ever mentioned. And it blows my god damn mind.These two parties are basically the same side of the coin, very little differences to be honest with you

this is my take
there is only one party and it's corrupt and self serving
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.