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Topic: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)

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CWSooner

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #392 on: April 13, 2020, 10:41:26 AM »
Jet engines are fascinating to me, the more I learn about them (the wife worked for a company that makes them, so I got some inside previes).

The turbine blades in the combustion section survive at a temperature above their melting point.  The blades have special cooling techniques to prevent that (usually).

The higher the temperature the more efficient they are.

The high bypass fans used today in civilian applications are basically turboprops that are ducted.  Nearly all of the air bypasses the combustion chamber and is pushed out of the read end by fans.  The thrust provided by the actual combustion directly is 10-15% of the actual thrust developed.

Unducted fans would be even more efficient but have noise issues, and perhaps some safety issues.

The Boeing 737 Max issue MAY be in part due to a shift in the center of thrust with the new engines that caused them to add in a "safety feature" that can cause the aircraft to pitch down uncontrollably to prevent what registers as a stall/high angle of attack.
"Mentour Pilot" on Youtube has an excellent explanation of that.  Boeing should have bitten the bullet and redesigned the landing gear to accommodate the fatter engines, but they did the cheap fix instead.
Here's the story about the changes the Marines are making: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/03/23/marines-shut-down-all-tank-units-cut-infantry-battalions-major-overhaul.html.
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SFBadger96

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #393 on: April 13, 2020, 12:13:54 PM »
Those who say the bigger you make it, the less elite, are correct. That said, the training we have for our active duty military is probably at its zenith right now: we have a combination of lessons learned, combat hardened NCOs and officers, and standards that have continued to evolve and improve. And that will never be enough to avoid the horrors of war. 

In Korean War v.2, we would commit nearly all of our forces. It's true that the 38,000 U.S. troops in South Korea, and the Marines, Sailors, and Airmen in and near Japan deter aggression on the North Korean peninsula. The more than 500,000 South Korean servicemembers do, too. And if North Korea's government convinced itself that the U.S. was unprepared to respond, it is very easy to see a desperately poor, but militarily dense, country think that the solution to its ills is to invade the wealthy country immediately south of it. As long as the Chinese stayed out of it, the U.S. and its allies would eventually win, but we would likely have to send in our reserves, as well as most of our active component.

Also, as noted above, the United States hasn't been in the military business of wiping out a country since it dropped the second atomic bomb on Nagasaki. Even then, with notable exceptions, we tried to preserve the German people, but not so much the Japanese. I think our attitudes on race have evolved since then. Nowadays, we have little appetite for "total war," in which we obliterate people along with their governments. It runs counter to our "We the People" ethic to destroy people who live under autocratic control. But that makes our need for ground troops even higher, for the reasons CD and CWS point out.

That said, I wonder whether more troops could have made the difference in Iraq in 2003. Possibly. That war turned out very much like I expected it to at the time: militarily the Iraqis were no match for the U.S., but culturally, we were near completely unprepared to make a lasting peace in which we came out the victor. Perhaps that is a vestige of a country (and region) largely constructed from the ruins misguided colonial (primarily British) thinking. Would we have been better positioned to manage this in 1991? I doubt it, but maybe the extra ground troops and a stronger middle class in Iraq, not yet further deteriorated by a decade of sanctions, would have helped.

Many of the problems we have faced over the last twenty or thirty years have been problems of our own making--at least partially. But it is also possible that those problems were better scenarios than had we not intervened in the ways we did. Most of our international policy post WWII was intended to prevent the spread of the communist empire. It was largely successful, and constraining that empire helped it die faster than it otherwise would have. That may well have been worth all the difficulties we caused ourselves. Undoubtedly mistakes were made, and with the benefit of hindsight, we could have done things better. That is not the way the world works. 

Could we have reached the Iranian government in 1952-53 and made peace between it and the UK regarding oil production, thus making Iran our friend in the middle east? Could that have been a better check on Soviet efforts in the middle east? Probably. Could we have understood the massive problems French colonialism caused in Vietnam, and supported a democratically elected government that represented the people of that country, instead of backing failed regimes? Maybe. 

And what are we doing now that with the benefit of hindsight we could do better? Probably a lot.

I disagree with TR Fehrenbach's more militaristic tendencies. He over blames military problems on civilians. But I agree with his theory that the U.S.'s willingness to fight proxy wars to hold back communist expansion prevented more of that expansion, and I think that made the world a safer place. Of course, he wrote This Kind of War before the Vietnam War. Much more of a failure than Korea, it is just as possible that the U.S.'s willingness to fight and lose Vietnam over the course of a decade continued to show the Soviet Union our willingness to match and check their attempts at expansion. At the same time, the Soviet experience in Europe (outside of Russia) created its own drain on the Soviet machine, and probably did much to check Soviet expansionism. Keeping all of those people under the government thumb is difficult and costly.

Back to babbling...

Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #394 on: April 13, 2020, 12:20:55 PM »
The US has not had a great track record over the past 50 years of positive results from military interventions of any size.

The military wins battles though.  The outcome of the conflict often is not at all positive.

SFBadger96

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #395 on: April 13, 2020, 01:33:42 PM »
The US has not had a great track record over the past 50 years of positive results from military interventions of any size.

The military wins battles though.  The outcome of the conflict often is not at all positive.
I think this point is at least arguable. I am far too biased to offer an opinion about the last twenty years, but I think there is a decent argument that Vietnam achieved the ultimate goal of stopping Soviet expansionism, as did Grenada. The Gulf War is harder to analyze, but at a minimum it shut down Iraq's direct aggression towards its neighbors, so accomplishing at least its stated goal. Other interventions, including in the Sinai and the former Yugoslavia, were quite effective, the latter taking longer than people would have liked, but leading to positive results.

To your point, though, the geopolitical limits of military success are rather evident over that time.

Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #396 on: April 13, 2020, 01:37:46 PM »
I don't think Grenada was a military intervention of size.  I've never seen a rational explanation for taking Qaddafi out, and what is left is a mess.  I'd rather see Assad in control of Syria than the mess we have there now.  Iraq and Afghanistan are messes in my book, though perhaps I am biased.  Vietnam was a mess.  

The older I get the more prone I am to wanting to let the rest of the world solve their problems without our "help".

I also think our Number One national "emergency" is deficit spending.

FearlessF

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #397 on: April 13, 2020, 01:39:32 PM »
I agree with all of that
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847badgerfan

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #398 on: April 13, 2020, 01:39:36 PM »
Those who say the bigger you make it, the less elite, are correct....
In the statistical sense, yes. "Elite" is supposed to mean "not many", unless you're PJ Fleck and everything is ELITE.

I'm talking about training and skill set. Marines are highly trained and highly skilled. Maybe cross-training is the better answer.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #399 on: April 13, 2020, 01:40:53 PM »
I don't think Grenada was a military intervention of size.  I've never seen a rational explanation for taking Qaddafi out, and what is left is a mess.  I'd rather see Assad in control of Syria than the mess we have there now.  Iraq and Afghanistan are messes in my book, though perhaps I am biased.  Vietnam was a mess. 

The older I get the more prone I am to wanting to let the rest of the world solve their problems without our "help".

I also think our Number One national "emergency" is deficit spending.
Ever watch Team America?
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Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #400 on: April 13, 2020, 01:42:53 PM »

I'm talking about training and skill set. Marines are highly trained and highly skilled. Maybe cross-training is the better answer.
Many of them are.  I'd probably say they are relatively well trained.  The ground combat units tend to be good, slackers don't last.  Obviously the aviation component is highly trained.  There is a decent correlation between numbers and level of training and capability, but quantity has a quality all its own.


And how many divisions has the Pope?

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Cincydawg

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #401 on: April 13, 2020, 01:43:28 PM »
Ever watch Team America?
Is that a game show?  I almost never watch network TV.

SFBadger96

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #402 on: April 13, 2020, 01:57:04 PM »
I think the reference is to Team America: World Police, a clay-mation movie by the South Park guys (I think).

I saw a cool presentation showing the number of deaths due to warfare not too long ago that makes a compelling case that Pax Americana has been real--and a major benefit to world security (which includes our own). I'll try to dig it up and link it here...

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #403 on: April 13, 2020, 02:34:49 PM »
In the statistical sense, yes. "Elite" is supposed to mean "not many", unless you're PJ Fleck and everything is ELITE.

I'm talking about training and skill set. Marines are highly trained and highly skilled. Maybe cross-training is the better answer.
But I think if you're talking about special forces, it's the same sort of dynamic you're talking about with professional sports...

You're not looking for the top 1%. You're looking for the top 0.02%. The absolute best of the best.

It would be a hard argument to make that if there were 64 NFL teams instead of 32, that you wouldn't see a dilution of the skill set.  Heck, the NFL has difficulty finding 32 quarterbacks that are capable of performing at the necessary level given the competition... 

While I think most of our military would be considered an elite fighting force, the level of elite that you're talking about comparing say a general infantry regiment with, say, a SEAL team is a completely different thing. It's probably akin to the difference between high-level HS football and the NFL. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #404 on: April 13, 2020, 02:35:13 PM »
If North Korea invaded South Korea:
a)  South Korea wouldn't be surprised
b)  wouldn't South Korea have at least a 50/50 chance of winning by itself (including what we have there already) without us intervening with off-site resources?
.
We could obviously erase North Korea off the map.  Honestly, I think we'd be doing China a favor.  They could never admit it, but I bet they'd be glad to be rid of that risky ally. 
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Government Policy and Budget Discussion Thread (no politics)
« Reply #405 on: April 13, 2020, 02:36:44 PM »
Could we just have Seals, Rangers, and Marines?  Have a full navy, have a full air force, but small/elite ground forces only.  Tactical, surgical incisions only, combined with infinite attacks from the air, anywhere on the planet.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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