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Topic: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
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bayareabadger · « **Reply #42 on:** October 01, 2019, 09:30:33 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on October 01, 2019, 08:47:05 AM

One thing that convinced me that Mark Richt was just an OK coach was watching him get out coached by SOS at USCe who would often beat him with much inferior talent.

I maintain Richt was better than OK. Calling him OK gets into the sort of, not spoiled exactly, but the narrower lens that comes with loving one program.

The series between them was 5-5. I'll grant you the first win (2007) and the probably the last (UGA defense fell apart against a good USCe offense). The middle ones:
- 6-7 Washaun Ealey-led, A.J. Green-less UGA loses to Stephon Gilmore, Melvin Ingram, Alshon Jeffery, Marcus Lattimore. This is fine.
-USCe has Crowell, King, Mitchell and Murray, plus a good defense, but South Carolina's defense is better with Ingram, Clowney and Gilmore. USCe has Jeffery, Lattimore and STILL needs two defensive TDs and a masterful fake punt to pull it off.
-Ehhh, this one is not as good. Lattimore and Shaw did modest damage and a punt return comes in. But a very good offense got mushed by a very good defense with Clowney, Devin Taylor, Quarels and Swearinger.

Three bad losses in 10 to one of the best coaches ever? Seems, I dunno, not that damming. I think Richt was a good coach, maybe at the low end of very good. His worst facet was that he built a strong program, as sturdy a launch pad as you could as for for a more ruthless next hire.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #43 on:** October 01, 2019, 09:36:23 AM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on October 01, 2019, 08:59:02 AM

Holtz got them from cratering to mediocre, but it wasn't like they were THAT good.

Also, SoS wandered the mediocrity wilderness for half a decade before it clicked, and after a brief window, it was gone.

Never said they were. Just that he jumpstarted it. Also recruited his successor.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #44 on:** October 01, 2019, 09:38:35 AM »

Richt had superior talent, and comparatively mediocre results most of the time. That is why he was fired after two successive 10-3 seasons.

Folks kept seeing coaches like SOS "run all over him" with inferior talent. Some pieces were fundamental things, like covering punt fakes, which Richt's teams messed up repeatedly. Special teams coverages were awful. Little things that are pivotal.

A friend of mine is a Miami fan and was thrilled to get Richt and I told him he probably will be mediocre, not a keeper.

When UGA played USCe, it became VERY obvious that SOS was simply out coaching CMR.

bayareabadger · « **Reply #45 on:** October 01, 2019, 09:50:15 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on October 01, 2019, 09:38:35 AM

Richt had superior talent, and comparatively mediocre results most of the time. That is why he was fired after two successive 10-3 seasons.

Folks kept seeing coaches like SOS "run all over him" with inferior talent. Some pieces were fundamental things, like covering punt fakes, which Richt's teams messed up repeatedly. Special teams coverages were awful. Little things that are pivotal.

A friend of mine is a Miami fan and was thrilled to get Richt and I told him he probably will be mediocre, not a keeper.

When UGA played USCe, it became VERY obvious that SOS was simply out coaching CMR.

I'm sure when your team lost to less talented teams there times, it stands out.

That's why South Carolina fans can point out that SOS, for all that coaching magic, missed on SEC East titles because of losses to 8-5 Auburn at home by 3 and 5-7 Tennessee. (The other year they led at the end of the third but gave up two FGs and a TD in a 2-point loss but that is mentioned less) Shoot, his team that beat No. 1 Bama turned around and blew a massive lead to Kentucky a week later. He got pantsed often, but mostly in games you weren't watching.

Everyone's got problems. That's college football over the long term. The complaint about Mark Richt comes down to this, he built teams we think were notably better than his 74 winning percentage. That makes him between a good and very good coach. It makes him irksome to root for, but that's what rooting for a CFB team is.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #46 on:** October 01, 2019, 09:52:51 AM »

I'm mostly referring to "Game Day coaching", where he was average at best IMHO coupled with poor special teams play and some bad game plans going into the game.

When he had good assistants, he had good years for obvious reasons.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #47 on:** October 01, 2019, 09:57:31 AM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on September 30, 2019, 08:58:09 PM

If the more with less card is going to come up.. King Barry. BCS bowl wins and built a program that will, more likely than not, stand for the long haul.

Only OSU, Clemson and OU have won more games in the past 15 years, and that is a result of what that man built. And he built it from... Nothing. Not a helmet. Not anything. Nothing.

Sorry. Not counting Boise and such...

For me, Barry is an interesting case.

He built it as coach. It endured after him because of him as an AD. I'm not sure at all that Wisconsin would still be what it is without him as AD. Maybe it's now strong enough to survive without him, but I'm not sure it was at the end of his coaching tenure.

Which adds to his career, but I'm not sure how to handle when we're taking about GOAT coaches. I just don't know how to classify him. The AD portion seems like it shouldn't be left out of his legacy, but he wasn't a coach so how does it factor into a coaching GOAT discussion?

bayareabadger · « **Reply #48 on:** October 01, 2019, 10:04:40 AM »

Quote from: bwarbiany on October 01, 2019, 09:57:31 AM

For me, Barry is an interesting case.

He built it as coach. It endured after him because of him as an AD. I'm not sure at all that Wisconsin would still be what it is without him as AD. Maybe it's now strong enough to survive without him, but I'm not sure it was at the end of his coaching tenure.

Which adds to his career, but I'm not sure how to handle when we're taking about GOAT coaches. I just don't know how to classify him. The AD portion seems like it shouldn't be left out of his legacy, but he wasn't a coach so how does it factor into a coaching GOAT discussion?

Barry's twilight also has to factor in. Three very so-so to less than so-so teams, one magnificent half-team and the 2005 team which was kind of a half team but mostly just weird.

bayareabadger · « **Reply #49 on:** October 01, 2019, 10:05:56 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on October 01, 2019, 09:52:51 AM

I'm mostly referring to "Game Day coaching", where he was average at best IMHO coupled with poor special teams play and some bad game plans going into the game.

When he had good assistants, he had good years for obvious reasons.

So he was average one Gameday and maybe with game plans, bad at random special teams miscues and a king at most of the other stuff?

(Also, in researching this, the 2014 team was just bonkers)

rolltidefan · « **Reply #50 on:** October 01, 2019, 10:13:19 AM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on September 30, 2019, 08:58:09 PM

If the more with less card is going to come up.. King Barry. BCS bowl wins and built a program that will, more likely than not, stand for the long haul.

Only OSU, Clemson and OU have won more games in the past 15 years, and that is a result of what that man built. And he built it from... Nothing. Not a helmet. Not anything. Nothing.

Sorry. Not counting Boise and such...

i agree barry should be in discussion, but imo he's just outside looking in.

fwiw, bama also has more wins over last 15 years (2004-2018).

fezzador · « **Reply #51 on:** October 01, 2019, 10:13:34 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on October 01, 2019, 09:38:35 AM

Richt had superior talent, and comparatively mediocre results most of the time. That is why he was fired after two successive 10-3 seasons.

Folks kept seeing coaches like SOS "run all over him" with inferior talent. Some pieces were fundamental things, like covering punt fakes, which Richt's teams messed up repeatedly. Special teams coverages were awful. Little things that are pivotal.

A friend of mine is a Miami fan and was thrilled to get Richt and I told him he probably will be mediocre, not a keeper.

When UGA played USCe, it became VERY obvious that SOS was simply out coaching CMR.

Georgia should be the best job in all of CFB. A competent recruiter doesn't even have to leave the state and nab a top 5 recruiting class year after year (IMHO, GA is home to the best high school football talent in the land - even more so than TX, FL, and CA, and the gap will continue to widen). It has a huge fanbase, fantastic facilities, awesome college town (easily one of the best in the country. For comparison, Clemson is quaint but rather boring, and Tuscaloosa reeks of grimy truck stop), strong winning tradition, etc. The only thing that's holding it back is the level of commitment - it seems to be content to just be a contender than a champion. The program simply doesn't have the same drive to win that Alabama and Clemson have, it's probably more on par with Ohio State, LSU, and Florida in that department.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #52 on:** October 01, 2019, 10:19:01 AM »

I don't see lack of commitment or drive, it's a matter of finding THE coach. How many programs fire a HC who just went 10-3 in successive seasons?

Is Smart THE guy? Maybe. He can recruit (duh). He knows he has to beat Bama, not just come close and have late leads in games. Hypothetically, if you put Meyer or Saban at UGA since 2004, they probably have 2-3 NCs in there. Richt was close with a few teams, but close isn't enough obviously. Smart has been close twice in three years and probably has his most talented team out there now. We'll see.

Smart is on a hot seat of sorts already, if he has 3-4 more close seasons, folks will start wanting a change.

rolltidefan · « **Reply #53 on:** October 01, 2019, 10:27:23 AM »

agreed. each school has that perfect coach, and it's different for each school/coach.

i don't think carroll and saban could swap schools and been what they were. they'd have a lot of success, but not what they had at their respective schools.

same of most other schools. rich rod at wvu vs rich rod at mich is a good example. culture fit, drive, style, demeanor, etc all play a big role in how successful a coach can be at said school. and no small amount of luck, either. timing has to be right. saban comes to bama in 2001 i don't think he has the same success as him coming in 2007. 2007-2009 had banners years of recruiting for the state of alabama, especially compared to 2001-2006. and he was here to capitalize on that boon instead of the thin years.and that 3 year period made bama a nationwide recruiting force, where now we're mostly safe from down years for the state. that won't always be the case, obviously, but until saban/bama shows signs of falling back, it will.

FearlessF · « **Reply #54 on:** October 01, 2019, 10:32:06 AM »

Quote from: bwarbiany on October 01, 2019, 09:57:31 AM

For me, Barry is an interesting case.

He built it as coach. It endured after him because of him as an AD. I'm not sure at all that Wisconsin would still be what it is without him as AD. Maybe it's now strong enough to survive without him, but I'm not sure it was at the end of his coaching tenure.

Which adds to his career, but I'm not sure how to handle when we're taking about GOAT coaches. I just don't know how to classify him. The AD portion seems like it shouldn't be left out of his legacy, but he wasn't a coach so how does it factor into a coaching GOAT discussion?

Similar to Devaney as a coach that built the program then moved to the AD to oversee it's success.
Obviously similar because Devaney coached Barry

to this point, Barry hasn't been able to match his master at coaching or administration - but he's done a darn fine job

MrNubbz · « **Reply #55 on:** October 01, 2019, 10:47:29 AM »

I don't think it's a coincidence that since Richt left Gawja that they are knocking on the door every year.Just like Cooper in Columbus - they were not the guys to get it done.IMO both should have been dismissed at least 5 yrs before they were.They were too over paid to be "Meh"

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Topic: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

bayareabadger

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

847badgerfan

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

Cincydawg

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

bayareabadger

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

Cincydawg

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

betarhoalphadelta

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

bayareabadger

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

bayareabadger

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

rolltidefan

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

fezzador

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

Cincydawg

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

rolltidefan

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

FearlessF

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

MrNubbz

Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?