header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?

 (Read 7829 times)

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18863
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2019, 10:28:04 PM »
medina, that's a cool idea to do with all the candidates - how many top 4 end-of-regular-season finishes do these coaches have?  




On another note, I think the very best coaches don't lose to unranked-type teams.  Saban hasn't, since his first year at Bama.  I think Spurrier went a whole decade without doing it.  Those guys had the talent, so that stat is about motivation and Xs & Os.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Hawkinole

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2222
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2019, 01:18:53 AM »
I believe KSU was the losingest D-I school in the country before Bill Snyder.

Those of us from Iowa recall he was the offensive coordinator at Iowa when Chuck Long was threading needles with a football. He coached Chuck Hartlieb who passed 3,738 yards in 1988.

Bill Snyder worked extremely hard, was very controlling, and extremely successful though I thought he made a mistake signing on to coach KSU. No one thought anyone could do what Snyder did at KSU. Think what he could have done at Ohio State, or other blue blood. Probably would have gotten fired somewhere along the way for a 9-3 record after winning 5 national championships.

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17157
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2019, 07:44:28 AM »
If the more with less card is going to come up.. King Barry. BCS bowl wins and built a program that will, more likely than not, stand for the long haul.

Only OSU, Clemson and OU have won more games in the past 15 years, and that is a result of what that man built. And he built it from... Nothing. Not a helmet. Not anything. Nothing.


Sorry. Not counting Boise and such...
Good Point there was a time when UW,IU,NU were trading last place finishes.He certainly did a much better than avg job given the circumstances.And he didn't have to leave town in front of the Sheriff either.ON WISCONSIN except for the 26th of course
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Temp430

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2019, 08:24:09 AM »
Neither Saban or Meyer is the Greatest of All Time.  
A decade of Victory over Penn State.

All in since 1969

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7867
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2019, 08:31:16 AM »
Neither Saban or Meyer is the Greatest of All Time. 
Who gets that vote for you.

Temp430

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2507
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2019, 08:36:56 AM »
Lots of better choices.  Bryant, Stagg, Yost, Rockne, Hayes...Saban is closer to that group than Urban.
A decade of Victory over Penn State.

All in since 1969

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25259
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2019, 08:38:28 AM »
I really think there needs to be separation of eras when talking about this stuff.

Rockne was fantastic, and he (and future ND coaches) had the ability to attract players with a nationwide tour every season (ND still does this, to a degree).

A.A. Stagg was also fantastic, in the pre-helmet era. Fielding Yost was great, so long as he could have non-students play for him.

Bear was a true great, with an awesome payroll and no scholarship limits. Woody. Paterno. Bowden. Jimmy Johnson. Lots to list.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71566
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2019, 08:47:05 AM »
One thing that convinced me that Mark Richt was just an OK coach was watching him get out coached by SOS at USCe who would often beat him with much inferior talent.

It's interesting when a top level coach goes to a mediocre program and you see a pretty quick change that is more than better recruiting.


847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25259
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2019, 08:54:40 AM »
One thing that convinced me that Mark Richt was just an OK coach was watching him get out coached by SOS at USCe who would often beat him with much inferior talent.

It's interesting when a top level coach goes to a mediocre program and you see a pretty quick change that is more than better recruiting.


Doesn't happen very often. Lou Holtz jump-started that program before SoS showed up.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7867
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2019, 08:56:49 AM »
So I have thoughts and a few qualifiers.

Qualifiers. 1. I lean toward modernity. I get that old coaches were great, but it's such a weird world. You could literally kidnap recruits. If someone from way back when blows me away, maybe, but it was such an uneven game/sport, I trend toward modern. 2. At some point, you have to chase the big stuff. I love a good turnaround, even if I think the maintenance is the more important part, but at some point, the payoff is in the big stuff. 3. I value maintenance (not just quick bursts and up and downs) and I value that top five percent.

What to I mean by top 5 percent? Those are the gaps between Cooper and Tress, or Tress and Urban. That's what Michigan has been chasing, that little, super hard to hit thing above your Lloyd Carr.

That's why I can't go for Snyder or Alvarez. Snyder was awesome, but Snyder also won two conference titles. Total. He believed in a cupcake-heavy scheduling approach. He's a great coach, but I can't go GOAT there. Barry had his chance. he turned it down to go 39-25 in the twilight of his career with some 7th and 8th place finishes. I appreciate it and everything, but hard to GOAT that.

I DQ Spurrier for a reason I'll get to with Meyer in a bit. Spurrier had all these contender quality teams at UF, and didn't manage to be there right at the end that much. He could coach, but maybe not get that extra little bit in recruiting. His lone national title was one he needed an assist for. The USCe work was great, but even there, he went 11-2 three times in a row and didn't earn a division title (he did the year before with a 5-loss team).

I would hear Dr. Tom, whose career is perfect in its own way outside a winning percentage a hair worse than Switzer. Switzer has a case, Hayes does and I could also see JoePa or Bowden in certain lights.

Why I don't go with Urban comes down to this. Urban had six unsanctioned years at the best college program in sport's history. Over that stretch, he had the third-best program in the land behind Bama and Clemson. In that stretch, he had three conference titles, two playoff spots in five tries, which were one fortuitous title run and a 31-0 shutout. He got blocked by less talented MSU teams twice, nearly by PSU and then by five-loss Iowa and seven-loss Purdue. I don't need a lot more, but I need a little more to lock it down.

I end up back at Nick. He has the one very nice mid-major year. He had a rebuild that took 5 years, though it hurts he didn't stay to maintain. He went off to LSU, a program with a good but inconsistent history. He made it what it had the ability to be, moving from a nice team to a contender no matter who is there. He left such a mark, Les Miles has a title and was one Iowa State game from a second. Then Bama, with seven top-2 finishes in 10 years, plus a 10th, a 7th a 4th and 6th the year before.

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7867
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2019, 08:59:02 AM »
Doesn't happen very often. Lou Holtz jump-started that program before SoS showed up.
Holtz got them from cratering to mediocre, but it wasn't like they were THAT good. 

Also, SoS wandered the mediocrity wilderness for half a decade before it clicked, and after a brief window, it was gone. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71566
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2019, 09:22:07 AM »

1999Lou Holtz0–110–8
2000Lou Holtz8–45–3Won 2001 Outback Bowl vs. Ohio State, 24–71921
2001Lou Holtz9–35–3Won 2002 Outback Bowl vs. Ohio State, 31–281313
2002Lou Holtz5–73–5
2003Lou Holtz5–72–6
2004Lou Holtz6–54–4

Lou had one good year and one decent year. 


Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71566
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2019, 09:23:23 AM »

2005Steve Spurrier7–55–3Lost 2005 Independence Bowl vs. Missouri, 31–38
2006Steve Spurrier8–53–5Won 2006 Liberty Bowl vs. Houston, 44–36
2007Steve Spurrier6–63–5
2008Steve Spurrier7–64–4Lost 2009 Outback Bowl vs. Iowa, 10–31
2009Steve Spurrier7–63–5Lost 2010 PapaJohns.com Bowl vs. Connecticut, 7–20
2010Steve Spurrier9–55–3SEC East Champions
Lost 2010 Chick-fil-A Bowl vs. Florida St, 17–26
2222
2011Steve Spurrier11–26–2Won 2012 Capital One Bowl vs. Nebraska, 30–1398
2012Steve Spurrier11–26–2Won 2013 Outback Bowl vs. Michigan, 33–2887
2013Steve Spurrier11–26–2Won 2014 Capital One Bowl vs. Wisconsin, 34–2444
2014Steve Spurrier7–63–5Won 2014 Duck Commander Independence Bowl vs. Miami, 24–21
2015Steve Spurrier (resigned)
Shawn Elliott
3–91–7


Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71566
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: GOAT Cfb Coach: Urban or Saint Nick?
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2019, 09:25:21 AM »
A great "game day coach" can snag 1-2 wins a year the team really would not have had with a "good coach".  That isn't recruiting or even due to player development, it is just game day prep and play calling.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.