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Topic: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal

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FearlessF

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #56 on: October 29, 2021, 12:18:27 PM »
All good points Cincy lost by 3 in January to Georgia.That may be the fly in the ointment this year,just sayin'
last season or this season?
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MrNubbz

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #57 on: October 29, 2021, 12:24:05 PM »
Last season,think it was Jan 1st,maybe the day before,but they got a foot in the door from this years perspective
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #58 on: October 29, 2021, 12:25:14 PM »
If a team goes to the playoff, via a static route, and loses, then the playoff is doing its job. And if the Sun Belt team loses from here to eternity, still the playoff doing its job. In fact, it’s the playoff doing its job well. If a mid-tier P5 is hurt by this, it can join the MAC. And if you don’t want to watch the functional bye games, go outside and get a milkshake or some chili, plus some fresh air. The rest of the games will be there next week.
This is extraordinarily well-said BAB. 

The arguments against it that I keep hearing are:

  • We know the Sun Belt team (or a 3-loss P5 conference champ) can never win, so it's just a farce to include them!
  • If a Sun Belt team (or a 3-loss P5 conference champ) actually wins, then a team not amongst the best teams wins, and that's horrible!

It's the argument that the deck is stacked against the non-helmets, so we need to keep stacking the deck against the non-helmets. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #59 on: October 29, 2021, 12:26:00 PM »
We all know Georgia just wasn't motivated.

If Georgia had actually played with some effort, they'd have beaten Cincy by 30. 

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2021, 12:28:46 PM »
Yeah, OSU would have made it the year they won the Conference Title but lost to Iowa, had they scheduled an easy W OOC instead of a L to the Sooners. 
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2021, 12:38:47 PM »
All good points Cincy lost by 3 in January to Georgia.That may be the fly in the ointment this year,just sayin'
My problem with Cincy THIS YEAR is that nothing in their resume is all that impressive.  I'll rank their games here in order of what I consider to be most to least impressive taking strength of opponent and margin of victory (not just final margin but what the CFP Committee has called "game control") into account:
  • 11 point win over ND - because ND is their best opponent
  • 49 point win over Temple - Temple is horrible but beating them 52-3 is roughly what I would expect from a NC contender 
  • 35 point win over UCF - UCF is pretty weak but beating them 56-21 is pretty good, I would only be somewhat concerned if tOSU did that 
  • 35 point win over MiamiOH - MiamiOH is terrible this year but beating them 49-14 would only be somewhat concerning if tOSU did that 
  • 14 point win over Indiana - This game was closer than the final score indicates, it was a dogfight and legitimate high-end teams don't struggle with IU (see tOSU, IA, PSU) 
  • 7 point win over Navy - this is decidedly NOT impressive
  • 35 point win over MurraySt - FCS wins just don't impress me period so it wouldn't matter if this was by 100 points it would still be #7


The first two are basically what I expect out of a NC contender.  

Three and four would be slightly concerning if tOSU or another legitimate NC contender did the same thing.  These aren't major black marks on Cincy's resume but they aren't feathers in Cincy's cap either.  

Five and six are concerning.  If tOSU or another legitimate NC contender beat IU or Navy by only 7-14 points a LOT of people would wonder why and think that maybe tOSU wasn't all that good.  I think the same thing about Cincy when they beat IU by 14 and Navy by 7.  

Seven basically doesn't count.  

So by my analysis that is:
  • 2 games where they looked like a NC contender
  • 2 games where they looked like *MAYBE* a NC contender
  • 2 games where they definitely did NOT look like a NC contender
If I were on the CFP Committee, this would not be good enough for me.  Cincy, or any G5 or for that matter a P5 with a ridiculously weak schedule would need to look like a NC contender pretty much every week.  


medinabuckeye1

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2021, 12:49:35 PM »
This is extraordinarily well-said BAB.

The arguments against it that I keep hearing are:

  • We know the Sun Belt team (or a 3-loss P5 conference champ) can never win, so it's just a farce to include them!
  • If a Sun Belt team (or a 3-loss P5 conference champ) actually wins, then a team not amongst the best teams wins, and that's horrible!

It's the argument that the deck is stacked against the non-helmets, so we need to keep stacking the deck against the non-helmets.
Part 1 is obviously a big part of my argument.  Nobody has addressed my point above that including all the tallest midgets would have meant including a 5-loss MiamiOH team in 2019 that lost by 71 freaking points to tOSU and by smaller but still large margins to both Iowa and Cincy.  Why are we ignoring those on-field results?  Why are we depriving Iowa and Cincy of spots to make room for a vastly inferior MiamiOH team?  

Part 2 is moot because 2019 MiamiOH wouldn't win anyway.  If 2021 Cincy gets there they wont either.  They might get a miraculous upset in the first round but they obviously aren't going to win back-to-back games against legitimate NC contenders and if they did win the semi-final I wouldn't care.  

The bigger part of my argument is that CFP slots are a finite resource.  You can't just wish them into existence for Cincinnati-21 or MiamiOH-19, you have to deprive some other, better team in order to include MiamiOH-19 or Cincy-21.  

Further, and this is important, unlike in BB where we DO deprive vastly superior power conference teams of bids to make room for vastly inferior tallest midgets, in this case the vastly superior power conference teams would actually have a plausible shot at winning the NC.  In BB the vastly superior power conference teams deprived of bids are only middling teams so there was never a chance that they would win six straight games anyway.  In FB the vastly superior power conference teams deprived of bids would be 11-2 CG losers or 10-2 teams that just missed their CG.  These are GOOD teams.  Unlike MiamiOH-19 or Cincy-21, some of them would actually be capable of winning two or three games against high-end opposition.  

FearlessF

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2021, 12:50:23 PM »
We all know Georgia just wasn't motivated.

If Georgia had actually played with some effort, they'd have beaten Cincy by 30.
Same as Auburn's performance vs UCF following the 2017 reg season
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2021, 12:58:52 PM »
Five and six are concerning.  If tOSU or another legitimate NC contender beat IU or Navy by only 7-14 points a LOT of people would wonder why and think that maybe tOSU wasn't all that good.  I think the same thing about Cincy when they beat IU by 14 and Navy by 7. 
Uh huh. https://www.espn.com/college-football/game/_/gameId/401247326


The bigger part of my argument is that CFP slots are a finite resource.  You can't just wish them into existence for Cincinnati-21 or MiamiOH-19, you have to deprive some other, better team in order to include MiamiOH-19 or Cincy-21. 

Further, and this is important, unlike in BB where we DO deprive vastly superior power conference teams of bids to make room for vastly inferior tallest midgets, in this case the vastly superior power conference teams would actually have a plausible shot at winning the NC.  In BB the vastly superior power conference teams deprived of bids are only middling teams so there was never a chance that they would win six straight games anyway.  In FB the vastly superior power conference teams deprived of bids would be 11-2 CG losers or 10-2 teams that just missed their CG.  These are GOOD teams.  Unlike MiamiOH-19 or Cincy-21, some of them would actually be capable of winning two or three games against high-end opposition. 
Sure, they're a finite resource. But let's say OSU goes on to lose to PSU, wins out the rest of the way, and beats a West team that gets into the CCG on a tiebreaker with 2 losses. 

So they finish 11-2 and Cincy finishes 13-0. 

Assume those are the two best options for the 4th CFP slot. Are you putting OSU in over Cincy? 
Same as Auburn's performance vs UCF following the 2017 reg season
Does seem to be an excellent way to excuse SEC losses.

It can't be, CAN'T BE, that a G5 is actually legitimately a good football team. 

MikeDeTiger

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2021, 01:00:58 PM »
This is extraordinarily well-said BAB.

The arguments against it that I keep hearing are:

  • We know the Sun Belt team (or a 3-loss P5 conference champ) can never win, so it's just a farce to include them!
  • If a Sun Belt team (or a 3-loss P5 conference champ) actually wins, then a team not amongst the best teams wins, and that's horrible!

It's the argument that the deck is stacked against the non-helmets, so we need to keep stacking the deck against the non-helmets.

The major flaw I see with "a mid-tier P5 team can join the MAC" (and the guy's point earlier about TAMU can join the Sunbelt) is the assumption that a team's status remains static with a jump to a lesser conference, and I don't see any reason to think that is justified.  

Back in the days of ftbobs, he had a ton of historical data supporting that the conference you play in matters.  Even disregarding data, it's simply intuitive.  If A&M did such a thing, they wouldn't be "A&M" for very long.  They'd lose a metric ton of $$ brought in by being in the SEC.  Recruits would not be so eager to sign up for playing Ga. Southern and Ark. St. as they might be to play Auburn and LSU.  Now they no longer have "A&M quality" players.  They're transitioning to the generally accepted category of teams who shouldn't be in the playoffs for all the known reasons, and they'd be doing it to themselves--while losing money.  It's just a matter of time before there's little distinction between Texas A&M and the scrubs they tried to pave their easier road with, thereby negating the very reason they wanted to join in the first place.  It's both self-defeating and impoverishing.  

As far as the "playoff doing its job," that depends entirely on what one thinks the job of the playoff is.  

Myself, I don't really need the playoff to give me the "best teams."  If I wanted that I'd be an NFL fan, which is much more geared towards "who's the best by the end of the season" rather than "who had the best resume this season," and is one reason I consider it a completely different sport than cfb. 

Or at least it used to be.  Getting less and less by the minute.

FearlessF

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2021, 01:05:11 PM »
Sure, they're a finite resource. But let's say OSU goes on to lose to PSU, wins out the rest of the way, and beats a West team that gets into the CCG on a tiebreaker with 2 losses.

So they finish 11-2 and Cincy finishes 13-0.

Assume those are the two best options for the 4th CFP slot. Are you putting OSU in over Cincy? 
in this case, I'm giving the nod to Cincy.  Give them a shot to prove themselves.
USO may be the better team and might be favored by 14 points by vegas in a head to head, but OSU blew it with the 2nd loss.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2021, 01:20:32 PM »
The major flaw I see with "a mid-tier P5 team can join the MAC" (and the guy's point earlier about TAMU can join the Sunbelt) is the assumption that a team's status remains static with a jump to a lesser conference, and I don't see any reason to think that is justified. 

Back in the days of ftbobs, he had a ton of historical data supporting that the conference you play in matters.  Even disregarding data, it's simply intuitive.  If A&M did such a thing, they wouldn't be "A&M" for very long.  They'd lose a metric ton of $$ brought in by being in the SEC.  Recruits would not be so eager to sign up for playing Ga. Southern and Ark. St. as they might be to play Auburn and LSU.  Now they no longer have "A&M quality" players.  They're transitioning to the generally accepted category of teams who shouldn't be in the playoffs for all the known reasons, and they'd be doing it to themselves--while losing money.  It's just a matter of time before there's little distinction between Texas A&M and the scrubs they tried to pave their easier road with, thereby negating the very reason they wanted to join in the first place.  It's both self-defeating and impoverishing. 

As far as the "playoff doing its job," that depends entirely on what one thinks the job of the playoff is. 

Myself, I don't really need the playoff to give me the "best teams."  If I wanted that I'd be an NFL fan, which is much more geared towards "who's the best by the end of the season" rather than "who had the best resume this season," and is one reason I consider it a completely different sport than cfb. 

Or at least it used to be.  Getting less and less by the minute.
This is also when I hear those who are protecting the current glass ceiling arguing that these G5 teams "should just be good enough, for long enough, to get an invite to a P5 conference!"

Yeah, that doesn't happen. 

We used to be P6. When the Big East collapsed as a football conference, that didn't mean that we kept 6 power conferences. The few salvageable properties within the conference got pulled into the P5, and the worthless properties fell off. 

Then you have the B12. They got raided, losing Mizzou, A&M, Colorado, and Nebraska to better conferences. They snagged TCU and WVU, so at the very least you can say that ONE mid-major in TCU got pulled up--but it was largely a desperation move to get to 10. They then looked a few years later at whether there were ANY G5 teams worth expanding back to 12... And there weren't.

Now they're dropping from 10 to 8 with the loss of Texas and OU. A lot of people are predicting that they'll pick up a few teams and remain a power conference, but I think that's utter crap. They can either snag some extra teams and remain a conference, at which time we got to P4/G6, or they're going to get further raided for the few salvageable properties and the rest will get discarded to current G5 conferences. 

There's just no modern precedent for teams elevating from that level to the P5, except in desperation adds due to conference realignment.

Cincy could spend the next decade never losing more than one game per season, and it's not going to result in an invite from the B1G, ACC, or SEC. 

And if the B12 picks up Cincy, it's further evidence that the B12 is a G league, not a P league, going forward.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #68 on: October 29, 2021, 01:34:52 PM »
I think that's mostly right.  There may be some kind of blueprint for it, not sure.  

I lived in San Marcos for several years, home of the Texas State Bobcats.  At the time they were in the Southland, a battery conference with McNeese, Nicholls, Steven F. Austin, etc.  While I was there they committed a lot of money to upgrading their stadium to seat enough to meet FBS requirements, and joined the Sunbelt.  I don't know how it's going for them, and I don't know if FCS --> G5 is analogous to G5 --> P5. 

If it is possible, that doesn't mean it's reasonable for a smaller school. 

Still, as far as the playoffs are concerned, I don't think there is panacea that satisfies all valid opinions.  I can only offer that I think mostly those teams don't belong anywhere near Ohio State, Alabama, etc. in the playoffs, and I'm okay with the current rules that get them there in an unlikely scenario.  

um1963

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Re: G5 Scheduling Alliance Proposal
« Reply #69 on: October 29, 2021, 01:49:54 PM »
IMHO, the CFP and accompanying "nationalization" of the sport along with the NIL change have accelerated this in ways that were not really expected.  High-end recruits today have more motivation than ever to pick one of the VERY few programs that are consistently nationally competitive (basically Bama, Clemson, tOSU, OU, UGA and maybe LSU and Oregon). 

Those seven schools have 23 out of 28 CFP appearances (the other five are ND2x, FSU, MSU, Washington), 14 out of 14 CFP semi-final wins (Bama5x, Clemson4x, tOSU2x, LSU, UGA, Ore), and all seven CFP Championships (Bama3x, Clemson2x, tOSU, LSU).  Nobody else is even remotely close to that.  The other four teams that have been to the CFP are a combined 0-5 with five blowout losses in the semi-finals:
  • FSU by 39 in 2014
  • MSU by 38 in 2015
  • Notre Dame by 27 in 2018
  • Washington by 17 in 2016
  • Notre Dame by 17 in 2020

Even the 17 point losses by Washington-16 and Notre Dame-20 didn't actually feel that close. 

Those seven have some semi-final losses to, even some bad ones:
  • Bama lost a semi-final to tOSU in 2014, 42-35:  7 points
  • tOSU lost a semi-final to Clemson in 2016, 31-0:  31 points
  • Clemson lost a semi-final to Bama in 2017, 24-6:  18 points
  • tOSU lost a semi-final to Clemson in 2019, 29-23:  6 points
  • Clemson lost a semi-final to tOSU in 2020, 49-28:  21 points


The 18, 21, and 31 point losses were as bad as some of those losses by other teams but remember that these teams have offsetting semi-final and CG wins.  Those other teams don't. 
This is the problem.  There are only a small handful of schools that have a prayer of winning the title, the talent gap is so massive.  Most people just search for a reason to exclude them from the playoffs because they're tired of seeing them ignoring that they are head and shoulders more talented than everyone else.  This is why I'm in favor of playoff expansion.  The best teams get in and one of them eventually wins.  A few teams with good seasons fill in the other playoff spots.  Easiest way to make almost everyone happy and still have highly competitive playoff games.

 

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