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Topic: #FireHarbaugh - #FireFrost

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MrNubbz

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #196 on: November 13, 2020, 09:11:15 AM »
Why not call it a mulligan and get a free 2021 out of JH while you are looking and thinking about it?
Hardly free just not any pricier - which was enough
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #197 on: November 13, 2020, 10:45:03 AM »
Hardly free just not any pricier - which was enough
It is free from the perspective of "sunk costs". Ie, Michigan has to pay that whether Harbaugh coaches there or not so it is "free" to have him coach because it doesn't cost any more than not having him coach.  

847badgerfan

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #198 on: November 13, 2020, 10:48:48 AM »
Still have to pay the next guy, whoever that is.
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Cincydawg

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #199 on: November 13, 2020, 10:51:16 AM »
If you delay a year you don't pay a next guy obviously.

Is a next guy going to advance the program in that year significantly?  Maybe, so you're off a year.

And maybe not.

Tennessee fans are not happy with Pruitt.  

847badgerfan

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #200 on: November 13, 2020, 10:55:29 AM »
Tennessee fans shouldn't have run off Schiano.
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Mdot21

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #201 on: November 13, 2020, 11:06:39 AM »
Tennessee fans shouldn't have run off Schiano.
This. He’s a waaaaaaay better coach than Jeremy Pruitt lol. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #202 on: November 13, 2020, 11:29:51 AM »
Making coaching change decisions based on this season is loony.
I agree and I'm having a hard time figuring out where I stand on this.  

Note first that I am not speaking here as an Ohio State fan trying to degrade my school's primary rival but rather from the perspective of "if I were a Michigan fan what would I want?" and/or the "if I were Michigan's AD, what would I do?"

I understand Michigan fans pain at repeated losses to Ohio State.  I'm old enough that I was in Jr. High, HS, and college while John Cooper was coaching at Ohio State.  I was an Ohio State fan for all of that time and a student on campus for five of those seasons.  In the five seasons that I was in Columbus the Buckeyes went 1-4 against Michigan.  Additionally, they went 0-4-1 the five seasons prior to that (when I was a tOSU fan in HS and Jr High) and 1-2 in the three seasons after I left Columbus.  I get it.  I feel your pain.  

In some ways Michigan's current futility against Ohio State is worse than Ohio State's futility against Michigan under Cooper.  Chiefly this is because this streak is longer.  In the 19 seasons since Cooper was dismissed the Wolverines have only beaten Ohio State twice and one of those was under Coach Carr way back in 2003.  Since Lloyd Carr's last win over Ohio State the Wolverines have only beaten Ohio State once in 16 tries and that was in Ohio State's down year under Fickell in between Tressel and Meyer.  Yeah, it is bad.  

OTOH, Michigan's current futility against Ohio State is not as bad as Ohio State's futility against Michigan under Cooper in the sense that at least Michigan is losing to REALLY good teams.  In the 19 years since Cooper was let go the Buckeyes have the best winning percentage in the country BY FAR.  From 2001-2019 the Buckeyes went 199-39 for a winning percentage of 0.836.  Michigan hasn't lost to an obviously inferior Ohio State team since 2004.  Under Cooper, Ohio State lost as the superior team repeatedly.  Trust me, that is incredibly frustrating.  IMHO, losing to NC Contenders is a lot more forgivable than losing to mediocre teams like Cooper frequently did.  

All of that said, I think it is unwise to base your HC hire/fire decision largely on "performance against rival".  IMHO, it is too much of a moving target both ways:
  • If your rival is REALLY, REALLY good (like Michigan's has been for the bulk of the last two decades) then losing to them is somewhat forgivable.  
  • OTOH, if your rival sucks then simply beating them isn't THAT big of an accomplishment and shouldn't be enough (by itself) for your HC to keep his job.  

In the CFP era tOSU, Bama, and Clemson have basically been in a class by themselves.  The three of them have, by far, the highest winning percentages in the nation for 2014-2019.  Each of the three has won more than 90% of their games.  Outside of those three, only Oklahoma has won more than 80% of their games (and only barely at that).  Here is how their chief rivals have done against them over that time-frame:
  • Auburn is 2-4 against Bama
  • USCe is 0-6 against Clemson
  • Michigan is 0-6 against tOSU

I don't think that means that the HC's at Auburn, USCe, and Michigan suck, I think it is simply a reflection of the fact that Bama, Clemson, and tOSU have been on an incredible tear.  

All of Michigan's losses under Harbaugh (with opponent's final record and final AP ranking except this year's losses since those are not yet known)
  • 2015 Utah, 10-3, #17
  • 2015 MSU, 12-2, #6
  • 2015 tOSU, 12-1, #4
  • 2016 Iowa, 8-5, ORV
  • 2016 tOSU, 11-2, #6
  • 2016 FSU, 10-3, #8
  • 2017 MSU, 10-3, #15
  • 2017 PSU, 11-2, #8
  • 2017 UW, 13-1, #7
  • 2017 tOSU, 12-2, #5
  • 2017 USCe, 9-4, ORV
  • 2018 ND, 12-1, #5
  • 2018 tOSU, 13-1, #3
  • 2018 UF, 10-3, #7
  • 2019 UW, 10-4, #11
  • 2019 PSU, 11-2, #9
  • 2019 tOSU, 13-1, #3
  • 2019 Bama, 11-2, #8
  • 2020 MSU (currently 1-2, unranked, and looking awful)
  • 2020 IU (currently 3-0, #10, and looking great)

It is looking like the loss to MSU this year will be Harbaugh's first to a team that didn't even receive votes in the final poll.  Of the 18 losses from 2015-2019:
  • 2 were to teams that wound up almost ranked (ORV Iowa in 2016 and ORV USCe in 2017).  
  • 1 was to a team that finished ranked #17 and that was Harbaugh's very first game as HC.  
  • 2 were to teams that wound up ranked #11-#15 (#11 UW in 2019 and #15 MSU in 2017)
  • 13 were to teams that wound up ranked in the top-10 including five in the top-5.  

My point is that with the ONE exception of MSU this year, Harbaugh isn't losing to bad teams.  In fact, he is even doing pretty well against good teams.  The only place where he is NOT doing well is against great and elite teams and well, nobody does very well against great and elite teams.  


FearlessF

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #203 on: November 13, 2020, 11:34:06 AM »
Making coaching change decisions based on this season is loony.
I agree if we're talking about this season only
but, Coach Harbaugh in in season #6, if based on the previous 5 seasons AND this season, why through this season out completely?

this season is much different than the previous 5 seasons, but it's still reflective of coach's responsibility to run a program.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #204 on: November 13, 2020, 12:14:06 PM »
I think the issue is that you're paying Jim Harbaugh to get you to the CFP, not just beat OSU. To do that, 2 losses is too many. He's had two regular season losses in EVERY year at Michigan. 

If he was getting to the game quite often at 11-0 and just losing to insanely good OSU teams, it might be one thing. But here's what he's had coming in to each Game:


  • 2015: 9-2
  • 2016: 10-1
  • 2017: 8-3
  • 2018: 10-1
  • 2019: 9-2

Beating OSU in 2016 or 2018 might have been enough to get into the CFP, but in the three other years, beating OSU and winning the CCG wouldn't have gotten them in. 

Now, maybe Michigan going to the CFP is an unrealistic expectation... But their fan base is known for unrealistic expectations. And Harbaugh hasn't shown evidence that he's going to live up to them, and it's costing a lot of money to not get what they want. 

Harbaugh is similar to Richt at Georgia, except that Harbaugh is a weirdo who seems to grate on everyone over time, whereas Richt was a great ambassador for the program. Much like Pelini at Nebraska, coming "just short" repeatedly can get you a long leash if you're well-liked, but not if you're a weirdo or asshole.


Mdot21

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #205 on: November 13, 2020, 12:40:11 PM »
I think the issue is that you're paying Jim Harbaugh to get you to the CFP, not just beat OSU. To do that, 2 losses is too many. He's had two regular season losses in EVERY year at Michigan.

If he was getting to the game quite often at 11-0 and just losing to insanely good OSU teams, it might be one thing. But here's what he's had coming in to each Game:


  • 2015: 9-2
  • 2016: 10-1
  • 2017: 8-3
  • 2018: 10-1
  • 2019: 9-2

Beating OSU in 2016 or 2018 might have been enough to get into the CFP, but in the three other years, beating OSU and winning the CCG wouldn't have gotten them in.

Now, maybe Michigan going to the CFP is an unrealistic expectation... But their fan base is known for unrealistic expectations. And Harbaugh hasn't shown evidence that he's going to live up to them, and it's costing a lot of money to not get what they want.

Harbaugh is similar to Richt at Georgia, except that Harbaugh is a weirdo who seems to grate on everyone over time, whereas Richt was a great ambassador for the program. Much like Pelini at Nebraska, coming "just short" repeatedly can get you a long leash if you're well-liked, but not if you're a weirdo or asshole.
This is a great post. Agree with all of it. At the same time, he's done OK despite having mediocre offenses and average QB play.

If he had another superstar QB like Andrew Luck, maybe he's breaking through in one of those years. And the QB position is the position he was supposedly known for. And he hasn't been able to recruit an elite one, get an elite one to transfer in, or take a kid with potential and develop him into an elite one. He's been a complete failure when it comes to QB's.

Harbaugh's major problem is the college game has changed drastically since he was at Stanford all those years ago- and Harbaugh hasn't changed with it. I saw Paul Finebaum make this point, and I was like damn- he's right. Finebaum said Harbaugh's stubbornness has been his downfall- that even Saban adapted 5 years ago to gear his teams away from defense and run game- and more towards offense/tempo and explosive passing. And that's what wins in college these days. You have to be able to score points and have explosive plays.

And all the teams that have been dominating their conferences and making the playoff have been OFFENSIVE teams with QB's that were/will be drafted high.Clemson has had DeShaun Watson (top 10 pick) and Trevor Lawrence (will be #1 pick). OSU has had JT Barrett(left as all-time stat leader at OSU)/Cardale Jones(3rd rd pick) Dwayne Haskins (top 10 pick) and Justin Fields (will be top 3 pick). Bama has had Jalen Hurts (2nd rd), Tua (top 5 pick) and now Mac Jones who put up great numbers last year taking over for Tua and is putting up great numbers again and is being mocked as a 1st round pick in all the latest 2021 mock drafts. Oklahoma had Baker (#1 pick), Kyler (#1 pick), and Jalen Hurts (2nd rd pick). 

Harbaugh's QB's/QB development? Lol.

Abba

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #206 on: November 13, 2020, 12:57:42 PM »
I was with you until you said Pelini was a good ambassador and well liked.  I'm not a Nebraska fan, but is that really true?  Maybe you meant to say Frank Solich?

FearlessF

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #207 on: November 13, 2020, 01:00:47 PM »
that isn't what he said, or meant to say
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MrNubbz

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #208 on: November 13, 2020, 01:01:35 PM »
My point is that with the ONE exception of MSU this year, Harbaugh isn't losing to bad teams.  In fact, he is even doing pretty well against good teams.  The only place where he is NOT doing well is against great and elite teams and well, nobody does very well against great and elite teams. 
Pretty sure that wasn't highlighted in his contract when he became HC in AA.He wasn't even going 50-50 vs teams with a pulse at a supposed Blue Blood.If I'm the AD I ride it out unless you get Urbz/ST Nick/Dabo-Doo or hell even Herm Edwards.Who knows he may pull out all the stops and go out swinging in 2021.He'll prolly end up beating MSU/PSU/tOSU.UW and get an extension.That'd be funny
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #FireHarbaugh
« Reply #209 on: November 13, 2020, 01:20:16 PM »
I think the issue is that you're paying Jim Harbaugh to get you to the CFP, not just beat OSU. To do that, 2 losses is too many. He's had two regular season losses in EVERY year at Michigan.

If he was getting to the game quite often at 11-0 and just losing to insanely good OSU teams, it might be one thing. But here's what he's had coming in to each Game:


  • 2015: 9-2
  • 2016: 10-1
  • 2017: 8-3
  • 2018: 10-1
  • 2019: 9-2

Beating OSU in 2016 or 2018 might have been enough to get into the CFP, but in the three other years, beating OSU and winning the CCG wouldn't have gotten them in.



2016 and 2018 would have definately been cfb years if they beat OSU and won the ccg. 

He has to get at least a bit of a pass for 2017 since the qb room was hobbled all year. Even so, the three losses going into OSU were PSU, MSU and Wisconsin. 

In 2019 he lost to PSU and Wisconsin, but he spanked his other two rivals, beating MSU and Notre Dame by a combined socre of 89-24. 

So with this as his first real "WTF" season, he should be able to play the "2020" card. 
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