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Topic: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order

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medinabuckeye1

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B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« on: February 18, 2021, 04:12:18 PM »
This should be good and controversial! 

My thoughts:

  • Indiana:  Probably the strongest argument for the Hoosiers is that they have five NC's while the rest of the league only has six combined (MSU2x, tOSU, M, UW, UMD).  They also lead the league in S16's.  They trail only Purdue in league titles and it is close (24-22) while trailing only MSU and tOSU in F4's and again it is close (eight for IU, 10 each for tOSU and MSU). 
  • Michigan State:  The Spartans are second behind only the Hoosiers in NCAA appearances, S16's, and NC's while being tied for the league lead in F4's.  The biggest knock on them is probably that they are sixth in league titles with only 16 but it is important to remember that they didn't start competing in this league until the 1950-1951 season and since then their 16 league titles is second behind only . . . you guessed it, Indiana. 
  • Ohio State:  I hope this isn't seen as a homer pick, it shouldn't be.  The Buckeyes are tied with MSU for first in the league with 10 F4's.  They are tied for third in NC's behind only IU and MSU and they are third in league titles with 20 behind only PU and IU.  The Buckeyes are fifth in NCAA Appearances behind IU, MSU, PU and IL but they are not significantly behind any except IU (IU has 39, MSU 33, PU and IL 30 each while tOSU has 29).  The Buckeyes are also tied for 4th/5th with 14 S16's tied with UMD and trailing only IU, MSU, and M. 
  • Michigan:  I really hesitated on this between the Wolverines and the Boilermakers.  Purdue has a healthy lead in league titles (24-14) and NCAA Appearances (30-25).  I ended up choosing Michigan as #4 because of Purdue's long history of postseason futility.  Despite having the most league titles and 30 NCAA Appearances (trailing only IU and MSU) the Boilermakers are only sixth in S16's with 12 and tied for 8th/9th in F4's with just two.  They have also never won an NC.  Michigan is third in S16's with 15, fourth in F4's with six (behind only the three schools ahead of them on this list) and tied for 3rd/4th/5th/6th in NC's with tOSU, UW, and UMD (1 each).  The twin knocks on them are that they are seventh in league titles and eighth in NCAA Appearances. 
  • Purdue:  The Boilermakers are first in league titles with 24 and tied for 3rd/4th in NCAA Appearances with 30 (trailing only IU and MSU) but after that they go downhill fast.  They are sixth in S16's, tied for 8th/9th in F4's, and they have never won an NC. 
  • Wisconsin:  This is, IMHO, razor close between the Badgers and Illini.  The Badgers have more league titles (19-17) and an NC while the Illini have more NCAA Appearances (30-24), more S16's (11-10), and more F4's (5-4).  I went with Wisconsin because they lead in the "hardware" categories of league and national titles but a strong argument can be made for the Illini who lead in basically everything else. 
  • Illinois:  The Illini are tied for 3rd/4th in NCAA Appearances, fifth in league titles, fifth in F4's, and seventh in S16's.  They are tied for last in NC's with none. 
  • Maryland:  Since this is a "program pecking order" rather than a list of accomplishments within the league I'm trying not to penalize the Terrapins for joining recently.  They are tied for 4th/5th in S16's with 14, sixth in NCAA Appearances with 27, tied for 8th/9th with two F4's, and tied for 3rd/4th/5th/6th with one NC. 
  • Iowa:  The Hawkeyes are seventh in NCAA Appearances and F4's.  They are tied for 8th/9th in league titles and ninth in S16's. 
  • Minnesota:  The Gophers are tied for 8th/9th in league titles, tenth in NCAA Appearances, 11th in S16's and they have never been to a F4 that wasn't subsequently vacated. 
  • Penn State:  The Nittany Lions are tenth in S16's, 11th in NCAA Appearances, and tied for 10th/11th in F4's.  They have never won a league or national title. 
  • Rutgers:  The Scarlet Knights are tied for 10th/11th in F4's and 12th in S16's.  They are 13th in NCAA Appearances ahead of only Northwestern but unlike the Wildcats and Huskers the Scarlet Knights have actually won tournament games.  All of their league titles were in the A10. 
  • Nebraska:  The Cornhuskers have never won an NCAA Tournament game and their last league title was in 1950 but Northwestern hasn't won an NCAA Tournament game either and their last league title was during the Great Depression.  The league titles for both teams seem to be so ancient as to be irrelevant so I just picked UNL over NU on the basis of Nebraska having seven NCAA Appearances to Northwestern's one. 
  • Northwestern:  The Wildcats have two league titles which is more than PSU or RU* but they are last in NCAA Appearances, tied for last in S16's (none), tied for last in F4's (none), and tied for last in NC's (none). 


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2021, 05:05:19 PM »
I personally would put Purdue at #3... 

OSU and UM are great, but they're not basketball schools. They have "highs" in their histories, but year in and year out the fan base doesn't care about the hardwood the way they do on the gridiron. 

Where I think Purdue has some advantages over both programs:


  • Mackey Arena. IMHO the best venue in the B1G ten. When Mackey is rocking it's deafening. 
  • Coaching. 40-year unbroken streak with one legendary HOF coach and one that looks like he's going to get there. Regardless of IU banners, Keady had the H2H record over Knight. And he didn't throw chairs or get fired for accosting students. Painter (like Izzo) took the Purdue job very young, and he's had to grow and develop as a coach. But he's seen as one of the top coaches in all of college basketball, and is also seen as one of the cleanest. 
  • Culture. With Purdue, you have a program with an identity. Team basketball. Lunchpail mentality. Stifling defense. Again that's been unbroken from Keady to now. And while that team down south may attract recruits with their history and banners, when push comes to shove Purdue beats them on the court. 
  • The rivalry. While OSU/UM are rivals in everything, we all know it comes down to football 99% of the time. Purdue/IU is a basketball rivalry first and foremost. The football rivalry is usually avoiding the conference basement, while the basketball rivalry is two teams contending for the conference championship. 
  • John Wooden. Before he was winning national championships at UCLA, he wore the Old Gold & Black. 


As much as Indiana has fallen off since Knight, I can't argue with their spot. Michigan State I think edges Purdue based on actual success in March. But I can't put two schools that only care about basketball when their teams are good in front of Purdue. Purdue fans by early November [hell, sometimes by mid-September] are saying "at least basketball season starts soon!" Michigan and OSU fans check in after the bowls/CFP are over and try to figure out if their team is going to be dancing. 

847badgerfan

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2021, 05:15:16 PM »
  • Mackey Arena. IMHO the best venue in the B1G ten. When Mackey is rocking it's deafening. 
The Temple of Boo is terrible. :96:
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2021, 05:41:17 PM »


Knight and Keady are legends, but both were pretty washed up by the time I was in College. 

Indiana made a run to the NCG the year that Knight was fired, so obviously he was still recruiting at a pretty high clip.
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2021, 05:48:58 PM »

Knight and Keady are legends, but both were pretty washed up by the time I was in College.

Indiana made a run to the NCG the year that Knight was fired, so obviously he was still recruiting at a pretty high clip.
Indiana is still recruiting at a pretty high clip. They're a blue blood. That's what they do, regardless of on-court results. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2021, 05:50:01 PM »
I personally would put Purdue at #3...

OSU and UM are great, but they're not basketball schools. 
Comparing just those three on the metrics that I mostly relied on in making the list:
League Titles:
  • 24 Purdue
  • 20 Ohio State
  • 14 Michigan
NCAA Appearances:
  • 30 Purdue
  • 29 Ohio State
  • 25 Michigan
S16's:
  • 15 Michigan
  • 14 Ohio State
  • 12 Purdue
F4's:
  • 10 Ohio State
  • 6 Michigan
  • 2 Purdue
NC's:
  • 1 (tie) Ohio State
  • 1 (tie) Michigan
  • 0 Purdue


Purdue leads in two of the five but it is close in both and is last in three.  
Michigan leads in one but it is close and they are tied for first in one and second in another.  The knock for the Wolverines is that they are a distant third in League Titles and NCAA Appearances.  
Ohio State leads in one category and is tied for first in another.  They are a close second in the other three.  

I went with Ohio State first because they don't have any glaring deficiencies.  Unlike Purdue (F4's and NC's) and Michigan (League Titles and NCAA Appearances) the Buckeyes are respectable in every category finishing either first, tied for first, or a close second in all five.  

I picked Michigan second because I feel like this is a sport much moreso than Football where what matters most is postseason success and Purdue is just not good there.  Here are the three schools' rates of converting NCAA Appearances in postseason success:

  • #1 Ohio State is #1 in the league in the rate of converting NCAA Appearances into F4's at 34.48%
  • #2 Michigan is #2 in the league in the rate of converting NCAA Appearances into S16's at 60%
  • #3 Michigan is #3 in the league in the rate of converting NCAA Appearanes into F4's at 24%
  • #5 Ohio State is #5 in the league in the rate of converting NCAA Appearances into S16's at 48.28%
  • #8 Purdue is #8 in the league in the rate of converting NCAA Appearanes into S16's at 40%
  • #11 Purdue is #11 in the league in the rate of converting NCAA Appearances into F4's at 6.67%, this is only better than the three schools that have NEVER been to a F4 (MN, UNL, NU).  

I can see the argument against Michigan because Purdue has significant leads over them in two categories but I can't see the argument against Ohio State where Purdue ha slim leads in league titles and NCAA Appearances while trailing in S16's, trailing badly in F4's, and having no NC's.  

I'll also add this, when I was checking how MSU's 16 league titles compare since they joined (1951) I noticed that 13 of PU's 14 league titles were before that.  In fact, 13 of PU's 24 league titles occurred before WWII.  When you base your school's superiority on things that happened before the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, you sound like a Michigan fan.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2021, 06:46:14 PM »
Sadly, Purdue is one of those programs that shows up on those lists way too often...

"Best programs never to win a NC"
"Best programs never to get to the Final Four in XXX" (1980 for Purdue being the last time).

I can't argue. It's a knock on the program that it seems like every thing I can remember was being snakebit when we had F4-caliber teams. Hell, all the way down to the last one where we led our Elite Eight opponent as the clock hit 00:00, but they had a miracle ORB / recovery / turn-around jumper in the air as the buzzer sounded to force OT. 


But about the only thing that pops into my mind when I think of Michigan basketball is "Fab Five", and the only thing that pops into my mind when I think of OSU basketball is football...

medinabuckeye1

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2021, 08:30:04 PM »
I get that a lot of people think this way because football is a more popular sport, a bigger revenue sport, and the sport where Ohio State is better.

That said, I'm proud of the fact that there isn't any school definitively better than tOSU at both Football and Basketball.

When the AP released their all time lists Ohio State was #3 in football and #12 basketball.

The two schools higher in football were Oklahoma (#20 in basketball) and Alabama (#30 in basketball). Of the 11 schools ranked ahead of Ohio State in basketball, the highest ranked in football was #17 UCLA.


MarqHusker

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2021, 10:16:44 PM »
Did I imagine I was at a ncaa watch party when with Northwestern alumni when they defeated Vandy in the 1st round of the tournament a few years ago?  I readily admit to being a cliff's notes hoops fan,  but they did win that game didn't they?

Get the Huskers back to #14.   0-7, and they've done it across a broad spectrum on the seed line.    I suppose they did cut down the NiT nets and managed to win a big 8 tournament once.

Abba

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2021, 10:49:22 PM »
How does Beilein not pop into your mind when thinking of UM hoops?  I know recruiting is part of the deal, but he got the most out of the guys he did recruit.  They were deadly in March too.  I would put him up there with the best coaches I've watched in the Big Ten.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2021, 11:13:36 PM »
How does Beilein not pop into your mind when thinking of UM hoops?  I know recruiting is part of the deal, but he got the most out of the guys he did recruit.  They were deadly in March too.  I would put him up there with the best coaches I've watched in the Big Ten.


All I think of when I hear his name is that time that he lost to Ohio U in the NCAA Tournament, after he had been impersonating Brady Hoke by calling OSU "Ohio" the whole season. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

FearlessF

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2021, 08:41:22 AM »
Did I imagine I was at a ncaa watch party when with Northwestern alumni when they defeated Vandy in the 1st round of the tournament a few years ago?  I readily admit to being a cliff's notes hoops fan,  but they did win that game didn't they?

Get the Huskers back to #14.  0-7, and they've done it across a broad spectrum on the seed line.    I suppose they did cut down the NiT nets and managed to win a big 8 tournament once.
hah, It's not often that I feel that Nebrasketball is over rated 
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ELA

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2021, 09:09:24 AM »
The Temple of Boo is terrible. :96:
Yeah, I actively avoid watching games in Mackey, it's the most irritating venue in the nation.  I know I've said this before, but my buddy from law school who is a Maryland alum texted me during Maryland's first game there, and asked if Purdue fans booing everything was just a "thing they did" like Blackhawk fans cheering through the anthem, because of how they just booed through the entire game

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: B1G Basketball Program Pecking Order
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2021, 09:40:43 AM »
Seems Alphabeta is looking at this through the lens of "helmetiness" while Medina is ranking their actual historical accomplishments. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

 

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