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Topic: Misfits Thread

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SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7322 on: August 28, 2020, 02:09:59 PM »
Hey its the blue states that have a problem with putting down the rioters

The red states have occasional flareups but nothing like the dems

they want riots and encourage them in hopes it will cause a Trump defeat

shameful

watch how fast these blue governors jump all over rioters after the election
It makes me sad to know that you think this. I don't. I suppose it goes to the different realities that Bwar suggested above. Unfortunate, to say the least. 

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7323 on: August 28, 2020, 02:12:20 PM »
To my mind, the tax code requires a fair amount of reworking because right now it values wealth over work, i.e., the wealthier you are, the more opportunity you have to increase your wealth simply by being wealthy, and pay lower taxes on that increase in wealth than working stiffs pay on showing up to do their job every day. That's perverse. But those incentives aren't without reason--some of those reasons are valid ones. So this isn't an easy, "just simplify the tax code" issue. Incentives matter, and the government has to weigh those incentives. Taxing and spending are the government's primary way to do so.
I agree this is an issue, though I benefit from it handsomely.  Folks don't understand the tax code, often as not, so many don't understand marginal income tax brackets and how they work, FICA taxes, etc.  They don't care to know I guess.  They think the wealthy have fancy CPAs to figure out all the angles that they can't figure out.  The angles usually are pretty obvious, but if you're a working stuff they simply are not available to you.  The distinction between earned and unearned income is remarkable.

My quirky definition of "wealthy" is a person who need no income.  Go ahead, raise my income taxes, if I don't need income .... meh.  (I would go to munis.)

longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7324 on: August 28, 2020, 02:19:30 PM »
It makes me sad to know that you think this. I don't. I suppose it goes to the different realities that Bwar suggested above. Unfortunate, to say the least.
well either my theory is right or they are complete idiots so I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7325 on: August 28, 2020, 02:23:14 PM »
Or they are weighing the risk/benefit of sending armed agents of the state to put down assemblies of people expressing their anger and frustration at social ills differently than you are. It's not simply a question of stopping the rioting. It's a question of what those confrontations look like. As an example, by all accounts, the presence of federal agents in Portland made things worse, not better.

The National Guard was sent to Kent State. How is that remembered?

847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7326 on: August 28, 2020, 02:23:20 PM »
Badge, I'm all for concerted private action to augment the government, but the government has to provide certain services. Private road building, policing, utility management, food regulation, stock regulation, etc., aren't reasonable solutions.

What you're suggesting sounds an awful lot like unwinding the American social safety net, so no more Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, food stamps, etc. Respectfully, we don't live in an agrarian society. In the modern world, all of those things are a necessity in one way or another--unless you want to live in Somalia, which really isn't a modern society.

You're right that government intervention will never perfectly fit every situation, but that's true of any intervention, even the enforcement of criminal laws, but the government has proven much more efficient, and frankly necessary, for many of these tasks.

The government should stay out of a lot of things, but removing social programs seems to me to be a fools errand.

To me, the key isn't doing away with government intervention, it's matching up government intervention with private investment, even at the welfare level. Again, to my means testing point, if someone has to invest something of their own, even if its a relatively small amount, they will value what they get more than if it is free. Free has lots of problems.

Even things like the HUD program that you seem to be so opposed to aren't necessarily bad because they have had some bad impacts. Yes, redlining was overtly racist and the government bears responsibility for that. Nonetheless, a great deal of private wealth was built in this country because of HUD intervention (if anything, redlining limited that growth by denying it to certain classes of people, working contrary to the economic goals of the program). It didn't make people millionaires, but it did help establish a healthy middle class. From a Keynesian perspective, that government intervention strengthened private wealth and made for stronger, more self sufficient citizens.

This concept that Reagan championed, fear of, "I'm the government and I'm here to help," is overblown. Realistically, at a local level, if you were to remove the family services departments, health departments (including mental health), the utilities, public works, parks, education, (I presume you wouldn't advocate privatizing policing and fire services), you would create havoc, and not one where benevolent wealthy people would step in to save everyone else. World history simply doesn't make that a realistic goal.

However, tying government assistance to some kind of investment from the person/people being assisted, seems like a good idea, because it will increase the private ownership of the outcome.

To my mind, the tax code requires a fair amount of reworking because right now it values wealth over work, i.e., the wealthier you are, the more opportunity you have to increase your wealth simply by being wealthy, and pay lower taxes on that increase in wealth than working stiffs pay on showing up to do their job every day. That's perverse. But those incentives aren't without reason--some of those reasons are valid ones. So this isn't an easy, "just simplify the tax code" issue. Incentives matter, and the government has to weigh those incentives. Taxing and spending are the government's primary way to do so.
You're reading me wrong here my friend. I will say this though. Private developers build roads and streets and parks all the time, and turn them over to government or utility companies upon acceptance of the improvements.

The key things municipalities provide must stay. Police, Fire, Public Works. I would be in favor of dumping things like DCFS, because they are prime examples of government failure.

That can be privatized.  So can housing.

Social Security and Medicare stay.

Higher education funding could be accomplished using the model that I helped make happen at Harper College in Palatine. We need people getting degrees or certificates that make them useful. One doesn't have to go to Northwestern to get a useful degree - one which provides the opportunity to earn a living wage. The entire higher education ideal is broken in this country. We don't need art history majors. We need manufacturing degrees.

K-12 is also a mess. There are too many districts and too many administrators - all sucking the taxpayer tit. Someone else (not me) needs to fix that from top to bottom. I would proposed eliminating a cabinet position, to start.

What I'm talking about is having private contractor make improvements, so that businesses are attracted to come, and builders are attracted to build. I (and others like me) would donate my time to design the projects. I've worked on many private land assemblage projects. It would need to be done block by block. In places like Detroit, that's not hard. The land is dirt cheap (literally).
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7327 on: August 28, 2020, 02:27:49 PM »
Can anyone explain to me what the Dept. of Education does?

I asked our head of the Board of Ed once, and he shrugged and said "They give us some grant money, but I'm sure it's worth all the paperwork."

SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7328 on: August 28, 2020, 02:29:52 PM »
DCFS, as in Department of Child and Family Services? 

I'm curious, what makes it a failure, and what would make it (or its private replacement) a success?

847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7329 on: August 28, 2020, 02:31:12 PM »
Or they are weighing the risk/benefit of sending armed agents of the state to put down assemblies of people expressing their anger and frustration at social ills differently than you are. It's not simply a question of stopping the rioting. It's a question of what those confrontations look like. As an example, by all accounts, the presence of federal agents in Portland made things worse, not better.

The National Guard was sent to Kent State. How is that remembered?
It's working in Kenosha, so far. The past two nights have been peaceful. The protestors leave the area before the curfew sets in. Those who stay out are being arrested. The Marshalls ain't playing.

The show of force is working.


https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/local/bradford-high-school-serving-as-staging-area-for-police-national-guard/article_72a436aa-b2b1-5ad7-a982-6b5b188338d9.html#tracking-source=home-trending


U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7330 on: August 28, 2020, 02:34:39 PM »
Can anyone explain to me what the Dept. of Education does?

I asked our head of the Board of Ed once, and he shrugged and said "They give us some grant money, but I'm sure it's worth all the paperwork."
My understanding is the three primary things it does are (1) distribute funding for special education services; (2) distribute funding for various social welfare things, primarily food for the poor; and (3) manage the process for federally backed higher education loans and grants. I'm not an expert, but I think those are the three big ones (though Google could probably tell me a lot more).

As with any distribution of government funding, the department sets and enforces rules, consistent with executive and Congressional oversight, that recipients of such funding must follow to receive said funding. 

847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7331 on: August 28, 2020, 02:36:45 PM »
DCFS, as in Department of Child and Family Services?

I'm curious, what makes it a failure, and what would make it (or its private replacement) a success?
Yes.

The vast majority employees of DCFS are AFSME hacks and don't give a shit about their jobs. They fail kids every day, and are rarely held accountable (union protection). Turning this into a private endeavor, or getting AFSME the hell out, would be better for the kids.

Probably 100 pages back I proposed professional education and licensing for police, and no unions. No immunity.
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SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7332 on: August 28, 2020, 02:39:18 PM »
It's working in Kenosha, so far. The past two nights have been peaceful. The protestors leave the area before the curfew sets in. Those who stay out are being arrested. The Marshalls ain't playing.

The show of force is working.


https://www.kenoshanews.com/news/local/bradford-high-school-serving-as-staging-area-for-police-national-guard/article_72a436aa-b2b1-5ad7-a982-6b5b188338d9.html#tracking-source=home-trending



And that's a good thing. 

SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7333 on: August 28, 2020, 02:46:25 PM »
Yes.

The vast majority employees of DCFS are AFSME hacks and don't give a shit about their jobs. They fail kids every day, and are rarely held accountable (union protection). Turning this into a private endeavor, or getting AFSME the hell out, would be better for the kids.

Probably 100 pages back I proposed professional education and licensing for police, and no unions. No immunity.
I don't have any experience with Chicago-land, but I have had enough personal interactions with our equivalent here to know that the overwhelming majority of our folks are working really hard to do the right thing, despite being understaffed and under resourced, and to deal with problems that are among the most difficult to solve, i.e., helping fix broken families.

The immunity question for police is a difficult one for me. The way qualified immunity has worked to date, it has shielded a lot of people from liability they should have had. However, simply saying there is no immunity would open police up to an endless stream of lawsuits every time someone got their feelings hurt. I would expect lawsuits for essentially every forcible arrest, and frankly a lot more than just that.

As is pretty clear at this point, I'm not a full-throated, the police do no wrong guy. But I do know something about BS lawsuits, and while I think qualified immunity should be re-looked, I don't think it should be open season on cops for doing their jobs.

longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7334 on: August 28, 2020, 02:46:44 PM »
Or they are weighing the risk/benefit of sending armed agents of the state to put down assemblies of people expressing their anger and frustration at social ills differently than you are. It's not simply a question of stopping the rioting. It's a question of what those confrontations look like. As an example, by all accounts, the presence of federal agents in Portland made things worse, not better.

The National Guard was sent to Kent State. How is that remembered?
well with that attitude you should run for office of some blue state

those poor small business owners are having their guts ripped out just because the governor doesnt have the balls to stop the violence

what kind of risk benefit is there when citizens feel the need to take up arms and confront the rioters cause the police arent allowed to
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7335 on: August 28, 2020, 02:47:58 PM »
I hope it holds up. Sounds like there are many more rioters coming in this weekend from all over. Last evening a load of people were arrested at a gas station. They were filling gas cans, and were found to have helmets, body armor and other items - including guns and drugs. 

Two pickup trucks filled with gas cans were found in the marina parking lot, just before dark.

The scanner if off line right now. I'm guessing they don't want the thugs to know where they are or what they are doing.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

 

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