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Topic: Misfits Thread

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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5670 on: August 03, 2020, 11:59:47 AM »
Quote from: Entropy on August 03, 2020, 09:45:32 AM
I would like to see votes move from winning a state = 100% of the EC votes to %'s...  Candidates spend time in Ohio for a reason... they don't spend that much time in WV.
That's a reform that states are free to implement.  It would change things, but maybe not for the worse.
What would be worse, IMO, and is a blatant attempt to get around the Constitution, is the "national popular vote" movement, wherein states pledge that they will give their electoral votes to the candidate who wins the national popular vote.
That completely disempowers the states.  Might as well go to a unitary republic if we do that.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 12:23:11 PM by CWSooner »
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847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5671 on: August 03, 2020, 12:02:56 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on August 03, 2020, 11:20:29 AM
Florida people voted quite clearly to lift the lifetime ban on felons voting.  In response, the Florida legislature implemented a scheme where felons couldn't vote if they owed money
I don't see that as unfair.

If I don't meet my financial obligations to the state of Illinois, they will remove my right to practice professionally by taking my licenses. Everything has consequences, as it should.
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Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5672 on: August 03, 2020, 12:04:17 PM »
Oh- your referring to the convicted felons who owe court fees, fines etc, not being allowed to vote.  

Yeah- mixed feelings on that but that is another debate altogether 
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5673 on: August 03, 2020, 12:06:12 PM »
Poll tax, heh.  I stayed too long around lawyers I reckon and like to use precise language when possible.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5674 on: August 03, 2020, 12:10:57 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on August 03, 2020, 10:22:07 AM
I think it's dangerous to make people's vote count less to be more "fair" to other voters.  That's the point of democracy (and republics) to give power to the people, not to give power to some people if they have the "correct views.  The "right" v. "left" dichotomy is so silly anyway, and imaginary in all but the voting both where we have no choice.
I disagree with this.
The point of a republic is not necessarily to give power to the people.  You could choose representatives by any number of non-democratic ways and it would not contradict the principle of a republic.
How about having U.S. Representatives buy their seats?  The seat goes to the highest bidder?  Not democratic, but not in contradiction to republican principles?
How about choosing U.S. Representatives by random-SSAN-generation?
How about having voters pay to vote, and thereby fund the government?
We were designed to be a federal republic.  Not a unitary republic like France nor a confederation like Switzerland.
A federal republic with some democratic principles built in (like direct election of U.S. Representatives, and since the 17th Amendment U.S. Senators) but anti-democratic ones also built in.
Protection of minority rights, for example, is anti-democratic.  So is due process.  In a pure democracy, we would decide these things with plebiscites, as dictatorships pretending to be democracies often do.
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Riffraft

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5675 on: August 03, 2020, 12:14:46 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on August 02, 2020, 03:00:52 PM
This is wrong. For one, Wyoming doesn't exist as it is, because it has minimal electoral votes and almost always votes Republican. There is no reason for either candidate to campaign there. Getting rid of the electoral college means there is a reason to campaign there, and pay attention to what the voters want.

For two, states already have senators, which represent a state's interests.
Senators haven't represented states interest since we went to popular elections for Senators. When they were elected by the state legislators they were much more responsive to the state. 

Sorry, but the election will be dominated by New York and California if we get rid of the electoral college, I don't live in either state for a variety of reason, but particularly for the politics that dominate both states.  LONG LIVE THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE. 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5676 on: August 03, 2020, 12:16:06 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on August 03, 2020, 09:37:11 AM
If magically the EC disappeared, candidates would shift in positions, a lot, and be more city centric.

But it won't disappear.  Been hearing this complaint twenty years, and not even a small step has happened.
There's much more than a small step.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

This is an compact where, when enough states sign on to be >50% of the electoral college, all those states would automatically award their electors to the winner of the national popular vote, rather than to the candidate which carried their own state.

It requires no change to the Constitution, as the Constitution allows states to determine how they choose their electors--and it was bolstered by a Supreme Court ruling a few weeks ago about states having the power to remove "faithless electors" that don't follow their states' guidance in the electoral college. Thereby strengthening the idea that states can choose to appoint their electors how they see fit, not as a winner-take-all based on only the results in their own state.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5677 on: August 03, 2020, 12:16:15 PM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on August 03, 2020, 11:34:53 AM
I agree and disagree.

We expressly elect Congress to be the "legislative" branch. They're the ones who are actually supposed to do something--write the laws which help the nation go.

The President is the executive branch. He's supposed to execute what the legislature has enacted. As such, he's kinda in that boat--the President actually doesn't have a whole lot of power to "do good", but he has a tremendous amount of power to F things up.

Even when a President is trying to set an agenda, much of what actually happens comes from Congress.

It's why for me, the mark of a "good" President is more defined by lack of bad things than by tallying up good things.
Like my man Calvin Coolidge!  The great refrainer.
He stated that it was much more important to stop bad legislation than to pass good legislation.
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FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5678 on: August 03, 2020, 12:16:32 PM »
Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 03, 2020, 12:04:17 PM
Oh- your referring to the convicted felons who owe court fees, fines etc, not being allowed to vote. 

Yeah- mixed feelings on that but that is another debate altogether
true, why is it that only convicted felons have to be paid up to vote?  Why not all voters?

outstanding parking tickets?  sorry, your vote doesn't count
Owe property tax on your house?  sorry
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Riffraft

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5679 on: August 03, 2020, 12:20:48 PM »
Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 02, 2020, 06:10:20 PM
Agreed.  It’s looking line this will be the second election in a row where I find the 2 choices so repulsive I can’t, with clear conscience, pull the lever for either. 

you can shame me for that- and I won’t deny it. I am embarrassed to not vote again.  But I will get over my embarrassment eventually, whereas I may not for casting a vote. 

Is this really the best we can do?
Since 1980, I have voted for a third party candidate for President, Yes I am throwing away my vote, but I vote my conscience and accept the consequences. 
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Riffraft

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5680 on: August 03, 2020, 12:23:50 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on August 02, 2020, 06:34:49 PM
Part of the battle is people erroneously thinking the founders didn't want democracy in the first place
Read their writings, there is no doubt they wanted a representative republic and not a democracy. They were concerned, and I still am, with the tyranny of the masses. 
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Riffraft

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5681 on: August 03, 2020, 12:24:50 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on August 02, 2020, 07:57:35 PM
Masses got it right in 2016
a significant number would disagree with you.
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Riffraft

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5682 on: August 03, 2020, 12:28:03 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on August 02, 2020, 09:56:42 PM
As did I. What the hell did it matter in Illinois? The HillBill carried 80% of the vote.

My vote in Florida will matter. I wish all the New York douchebags would move back to where they came from. They are going to F up that state, like they F'd up their own.
Many of us in Arizona feel the same way about the Californians moving here. 
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Riffraft

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5683 on: August 03, 2020, 12:29:54 PM »
Quote from: NorthernOhioBuckeye on August 03, 2020, 08:37:55 AM
I could not agree more.

I still believe the 17th amendment to be the worst thing legislatively ever done in this country. For years, I have advocated repealing the 17th amendment. Unfortunately, our educational system in this country is brainwashing our youth to the point where they don't even understand the basics of the founding of this great nation.
I agree, it was one of the significant turning points in the ability of the States to influence the federal government. 
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