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Topic: Misfits Thread

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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5586 on: August 02, 2020, 09:09:34 PM »
More democracy would be good. Get rid of the electoral college, make voting a priority, ensure the vote getters are the ones making decisions. It's difficult to have a ton of respect for a non-democratically elected government.
There was a great article in The Atlantic Monthly back in December: "Too Much Democracy is Bad for Democracy."  I recommend it highly.
It's about how the political parties have become too democratic and have thus surrendered to the highly energized in both parties to pick the nominees.  So Trump hijacked the GOP and Bernie almost hijacked the Democrats--who oddly are less democratic--in 2016.
I have these additional thoughts.
We weren't designed to be a mass democracy, and, historically, mass democracies have not worked out well.  They generally come to bad ends.
At its core, pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.
Abraham Lincoln would not have won a mass election. And he would not have survived a vote of confidence in 1862 under a democratic parliamentary system.
We were designed to be a republic, as Badge noted.
There are many non-democratic aspects to our constitutional system.  Like the Bill of Rights, rule of law, protection of minority rights, etc.
But apparently we can't keep it.  It requires a people who exercise civic virtue, of which we have little to speak of and mostly don't even know what it is anymore.
We want an Orange Calf or his equivalent in the other party who can get 50%+1 of the people who bother to vote.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5587 on: August 02, 2020, 09:11:39 PM »
The 1880's?

I read a biography of Grant recently, holy cow.

The Old Days were perhaps not what we remember.  And the 1980s were not some gracious climate either except between Tip and Reagan.  And yes, the antipathy in public is worse now, egged on by both sides, and that lobby thing.
Social media and algorithms have played a big part in it.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5588 on: August 02, 2020, 09:15:13 PM »
It will only get worse unless WE do something about it.

A republic, if you can keep it, and all that.

As for the post office... it can go away. It's not needed anymore. UPS and FedEx are cheaper too. Private companies.
Delivering the mail is really a core responsibility of the federal government.  Provide for the common defense, protect the rule of law, protect the natural rights of the citizens, ensure that the states have a republican government, and deliver the mail.
There are a lot of non-constitutional responsibilities that the federal government has just assumed--because we all like stuff that somebody else is paying for--that I'd rather see eliminated first.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5589 on: August 02, 2020, 09:19:06 PM »
Some people are results-oriented and others are process-oriented.  Being apathetic because the desired result isn't going to happen in your lifetime is results-oriented.  It may also be described as short-sighted or even selfish. 

Being optimistic of something happening down the road, and believing your actions will continue it (or even accelerate it a tiny bit) down the path is process-oriented.  It may also be described as sacrificial or an investment in our future. 

Reminds me of that ancient Greek proverb:  A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit."

Some people don't give a damn about a great society, just a comfortable life.
I like the proverb.
What particular policies does it inspire you to support or advocate?
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MaximumSam

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5590 on: August 02, 2020, 09:22:19 PM »
There was a great article in The Atlantic Monthly back in December: "Too Much Democracy is Bad for Democracy."  I recommend it highly.
It's about how the political parties have become too democratic and have thus surrendered to the highly energized in both parties to pick the nominees.  So Trump hijacked the GOP and Bernie almost hijacked the Democrats--who oddly are less democratic--in 2016.
I have these additional thoughts.
We weren't designed to be a mass democracy, and, historically, mass democracies have not worked out well.  They generally come to bad ends.
At its core, pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.
Abraham Lincoln would not have won a mass election. And he would not have survived a vote of confidence in 1862 under a democratic parliamentary system.
We were designed to be a republic, as Badge noted.
There are many non-democratic aspects to our constitutional system.  Like the Bill of Rights, rule of law, protection of minority rights, etc.
But apparently we can't keep it.  It requires a people who exercise civic virtue, of which we have little to speak of and mostly don't even know what it is anymore.
We want an Orange Calf or his equivalent in the other party who can get 50%+1 of the people who bother to vote.
It is a good article, though it kind of misses the forest.  Primaries are just how political parties choose a nominee.  They are democratic to the extent that there is an election and the winner  is the nominee.  But because parties limit the options, you don't have a very diverse selection of candidates. Bernie wasn't popular because voters are wacky - Bernie was popular because a wide swathe of voters likes what he was selling.  But because our elections end up having to be a Republican v. a Democrat, instead of several strong candidates, we get two.

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5591 on: August 02, 2020, 09:29:37 PM »
Even though I am very much in favor of the electoral college I have to admit you are correct about it does promote a two party system which in turn, I think is ineffective. 
If it meant we could do something different then a two party system then I would be in favor of eliminating the electoral college so for me it’s a little bit of a catch 22 because with a two party system there’s no way I could support illumination of the EC.
Gerrymandering is a big problem.  It's never been a good thing, but now it's gotten so scientific that very few congressional districts are actually in play every two years.  My fix would be to require congressional districts to follow county lines.  Lots less room for mischief then.
State rules--not the EC--are I think the biggest obstacle to third parties.  The two parties have written the rules in all 50 states to make it very hard for third-party candidates to get on the ballots. I don't know what the fix for that is.
I read an advocacy for the EC several years ago.  It went like this:
Imagine the World Series.  We determine it by which team won the most games out of seven.  That's like the EC.  If we determined it by which team scored the most runs over seven games, that would be determining the presidential election by the popular vote.
And the example given was the 1960 World Series, in which the Pirate beat the Yankees despite being outscored 57-27.  Nobody advocated then or advocates now that the Yankees be given the championship because they scored more runs.
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Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5592 on: August 02, 2020, 09:33:56 PM »
Masses got it right in 2016
So say you.  And you have that right.  But why do you say things like this, after such intelligent conversation earlier.?  

there is no right answer- only opinions. And you can obviously find literally millions to both agree and disagree with you. 

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5593 on: August 02, 2020, 09:35:56 PM »
There was a great article in The Atlantic Monthly back in December: "Too Much Democracy is Bad for Democracy."  I recommend it highly.
It's about how the political parties have become too democratic and have thus surrendered to the highly energized in both parties to pick the nominees.  So Trump hijacked the GOP and Bernie almost hijacked the Democrats--who oddly are less democratic--in 2016.
I have these additional thoughts.
We weren't designed to be a mass democracy, and, historically, mass democracies have not worked out well.  They generally come to bad ends.
At its core, pure democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.
Abraham Lincoln would not have won a mass election. And he would not have survived a vote of confidence in 1862 under a democratic parliamentary system.
We were designed to be a republic, as Badge noted.
There are many non-democratic aspects to our constitutional system.  Like the Bill of Rights, rule of law, protection of minority rights, etc.
But apparently we can't keep it.  It requires a people who exercise civic virtue, of which we have little to speak of and mostly don't even know what it is anymore.
We want an Orange Calf or his equivalent in the other party who can get 50%+1 of the people who bother to vote.
Solid post. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5594 on: August 02, 2020, 09:39:14 PM »
I find it very disturbing that so many "kids" think we are a democracy. Makes me wonder what they are being taught in school by history revisionists.
Civics education is not good.  And hasn't been for a very long time.  It wasn't good in 1960 and is no better today.
But about history revisionism. . . .
It's going on now and it always has been going on.  Since the time of Herodotus, who has been called by some the father of history and by others the father of lies.
Because history is never settled.  And history is always written in light of what seems to be important at the point that it's written and who is writing it.  It's always more about us today and what we think than what those people in the past did.
That's why the historiography of the Civil War was pro-Confederate for a century after the war ended.  Northerners moved on to subjects like westward expansion, defeating the Plains Indians, expanding overseas trade, developing theories about the influence of sea power on history, etc.  Meanwhile, southerners, stewing over their loss, wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote to explain the causes of the war, the reasons for their loss, how it wasn't about slavery but rather states' rights, so that they could feel better about themselves.
Now, for the last half century, the "revisionists" have been correcting the record.  And the neo-Confederates have howled about revisionist history.
It's an art, not a science.
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MaximumSam

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5595 on: August 02, 2020, 09:41:01 PM »
Gerrymandering is a big problem.  It's never been a good thing, but now it's gotten so scientific that very few congressional districts are actually in play every two years.  My fix would be to require congressional districts to follow county lines.  Lots less room for mischief then.
State rules--not the EC--are I think the biggest obstacle to third parties.  The two parties have written the rules in all 50 states to make it very hard for third-party candidates to get on the ballots. I don't know what the fix for that is.
I read an advocacy for the EC several years ago.  It went like this:
Imagine the World Series.  We determine it by which team won the most games out of seven.  That's like the EC.  If we determined it by which team scored the most runs over seven games, that would be determining the presidential election by the popular vote.
And the example given was the 1960 World Series, in which the Pirate beat the Yankees despite being outscored 57-27.  Nobody advocated then or advocates now that the Yankees be given the championship because they scored more runs.
I think a closer comparison would be of you made points in the second quarter of a game count double. Is it entertaining? Sure. Does it make any sense? Absolutely not.

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5596 on: August 02, 2020, 09:45:24 PM »
That's a difference of no consequence.  They wanted people to vote for representatives, with the person with the most votes being the representative.  That's democracy.
But they had the senators elected by the state legislatures, so that's not democracy.
And they had the president elected by wise, competent, civic-minded electors, and that's not democracy.
And they had the Supreme Court justices appointed by the non-democratically elected president and confirmed by the non-democratically elected senators.
And, in the first Congress, they added ten amendments that we call the Bill of Rights and are mostly denials of or restrictions on majority rule.
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MaximumSam

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5597 on: August 02, 2020, 09:48:27 PM »
But they had the senators elected by the state legislatures, so that's not democracy.
And they had the president elected by wise, competent, civic-minded electors, and that's not democracy.
And they had the Supreme Court justices appointed by the non-democratically elected president and confirmed by the non-democratically elected senators.
And, in the first Congress, they added ten amendments that we call the Bill of Rights and are mostly denials of or restrictions on majority rule.

All involved elections, and in none of the elections did they designate for the second or third place vote getter to get the job.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5598 on: August 02, 2020, 09:51:00 PM »
I like the proverb.
What particular policies does it inspire you to support or advocate?
It was in response to cincy's woe-is-me, things will never change attitude.

You could apply it to anything where the end result is in the distant future.  Going to Mars, building the pyramids at Giza, etc....
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #5599 on: August 02, 2020, 09:52:34 PM »
the question is again unanswered



What particular policies does it inspire you to support or advocate?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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