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Topic: Misfits Thread

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NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3668 on: June 19, 2020, 05:39:51 PM »
Man... You'd better watch out. Weed is illegal in Texas, and clearly you're smoking some good sh!t if you think either of those things will happen.

Congress probably won't even manage to pass the bill to end qualified immunity.
And they shouldn't. If qualified immunity is ended, you can say goodbye to police. To many lawyers will be waiting to sue any and every officer they can whenever someone arrested, detained or even looked at cross eyed by an officer wants to make a case. 

Qualified immunity is not the problem. Police unions protecting the bad cops is where the focus needs to be. You take away the immunity, ALL cops will suffer and no one will be willing to put on the uniform. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3669 on: June 19, 2020, 05:46:33 PM »
The AMA report shows that obstetricians can expect to pay around $150,000 in annual premiums for malpractice insurance. If your speciality requires fewer actual procedures, you can likely get by in the neighborhood of $30,000 to $50,000.May 14, 2018



How Much Does Medical Malpractice Insurance Cost in 2020 ...


https://equotemd.com/blog/obgyn-medical-malpractice-insurance/

As per the last year statistics, Obstetricians and gynecologists have been the ones who paid the highest rates, ranging from $85,000 to as much as $200,000.  A doctor in internal medicine is also expected to pay over $20,000 per year.


Thank you. I had no idea that OB/GYN was so high. Although that in particular suggests why they're so high--essentially they are liable to be sued for up to 21 years after they deliver a baby for anything that might have gone wrong with that pregnancy or delivery. 

However, pulling out the absolute top of the curve would be called "cherry-picking" in argumentative terms... A general practitioner wouldn't be subject to such high rates. 

There are fewer "specialists" in the police world, as well. Although you might see something along the lines that a SWAT officer, who is enforcing no-knock warrants on suspected drug dealers, might have a higher premium than an ordinary beat cop. And a beat cop might have a higher premium than a detective or investigator who is very rarely interacting with street criminals or making arrests. 

But I don't think we have evidence that the liability insurance for a beat cop would be $150K/year. 

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3670 on: June 19, 2020, 05:46:51 PM »
Is anyone of the opinion that this makes the health care system more economic or efficient for consumers? 
I haven't really looked at it for some time now, but when my wife was pregnant with our son 25 yrs ago, I had a discussion with the doctor and he stated then that his malpractice insurance was in the 6 figure range. I can't image what it is now.

And yes, that is one of the major problems with our HC system in this country. You get the lawyers out of it, you probably cut costs at least in half. I know it's not that simple, but lawsuits account for a major portion of the cost of HC in this country. 

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3671 on: June 19, 2020, 05:47:47 PM »
My friend in Boston who is an OB/GYM said he pays 6 figures, but then he says "Well actually my patients pay it."

An LEO wouldn't pay anywhere near that, but he'd likely have to pay something fairly substantial relative to his salary.


They may not start out paying that much, but as the lawsuits start rolling in, I'm sure it would begin to approach that figure. 

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3672 on: June 19, 2020, 05:49:56 PM »
Of course an LEO wouldn't pay nearly that much.  I noted that a IM doc might pay $20 K a year.

Maybe an LEO would pay $10 K a year.  On a $50 K salary, that doesn't work, obviously.

I think we also have to consider the court time this could create for LEOs somewhat routinely, even if they prevail.  Lawyers would see a bonanza here.  They would file on contingency and look for a quick settlement with the insurance company and take their third.



betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3673 on: June 19, 2020, 05:50:45 PM »
Im against public unions cause the people negotiating for the government have no skin in the game and therefore little incentive to hold wages and benefits to an acceptable level plus this gets worse if the union contributes to their campaign

Im for qualified immunity as the best way to avoid frivolous law suits I might be for some changes in the law but not for completely doing away with it

the officer put my handcuffs on too tight Id like $1,000 for my discomfort
And they shouldn't. If qualified immunity is ended, you can say goodbye to police. To many lawyers will be waiting to sue any and every officer they can whenever someone arrested, detained or even looked at cross eyed by an officer wants to make a case.

Qualified immunity is not the problem. Police unions protecting the bad cops is where the focus needs to be. You take away the immunity, ALL cops will suffer and no one will be willing to put on the uniform.
The Most Common Defenses of Qualified Immunity, and Why They’re Wrong


Quote
3. “Qualified immunity is necessary to prevent frivolous lawsuits against police officers.”
Whether or not you think “frivolous civil‐rights litigation” is a serious problem, it’s a problem that qualified immunity, by its very nature, is incapable of addressing.
There are basically two things we might mean by saying that a particular lawsuit is “frivolous.” First, it could mean that a lawsuit is not legally meritorious, meaning that the facts alleged, even if true, simply do not make out a constitutional violation at all. If that’s the case, then qualified immunity, by definition, is unnecessary to dismiss the lawsuit, because qualified immunity only matters when the defendant has committed an actual constitutional violation, but where a court nonetheless determines that the law wasn’t “clearly established.” If the underlying lawsuit is meritless, however, then it can be dismissed for “[color=var(--link-color)]failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted
[color=var(--link-color)]failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted
[/iurl],” without any need to invoke qualified immunity.[/font][/size][/color]
Second, a “frivolous” lawsuit could be one that is not factually supported — in other words, maybe the facts alleged, if true, would make out a constitutional violation, but the plaintiff is either mistaken or lying about the facts. But in that case, qualified immunity does little to help in dismissing the case, because of course, plaintiffs could theoretically lie their way around qualified immunity as well, just by alleging facts that do happen to closely match the fact patterns of prior cases.
The tools that we use to address and deter frivolous litigation are entirely separate from qualified immunity. [color=var(--link-color)]Heightened pleading standards[/iurl] require plaintiffs to make specific, factual, non‐conclusory allegations showing that they are entitled to relief. [color=var(--link-color)]Rule 11[/color] of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure requires attorneys to attest that they have a good‐faith basis for the factual and legal arguments in all submitted pleadings, and it provides for sanctions if they fail to meet this standard. Depending on the particular subject matter and context, more stringent requirements may apply. [color=var(--link-color)]Rule 9(b)[/color] of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure imposes extra pleading requirements for alleging fraud; the “[color=var(--link-color)]anti‐SLAPP laws[/color]” enacted by many states allow for early dismissal of frivolous defamation claims; and the [color=var(--link-color)]Prison Litigation Reform Act of 1996[/color] limited the ability of prisoners to bring successive, non‐meritorious lawsuits.[/font][/size][/color]
Assuming there is a problem with frivolous civil rights litigation, addressing it will require rules like these. But qualified immunity does basically nothing to stop “frivolous” lawsuits because, again, the doctrine only kicks in when the underlying lawsuit is meritorious. The idea that eliminated qualified immunity will result in a wave of frivolous litigation is more baseless fear‐mongering — qualified immunity does nothing now to prevent such litigation, so we shouldn’t expect a major change in this regard if we abolish the doctrine.
4. “Qualified immunity protects police officers from the time and expense of litigation by quickly filtering out bad lawsuits.”
This is a somewhat more sophisticated version of the previous defense, but it’s still mistaken. The argument goes like this: “Yes, in theory, non‐meritorious lawsuits should still end up failing, even in the absence of qualified immunity. But it will take substantial time and resources for officers to successfully defend themselves against these lawsuits. Therefore, even if qualified immunity ends up catching some meritorious cases as well, the doctrine is worth the cost, because it will let defendants quickly and easily dismiss the frivolous ones.”
This objection might sound sensible in the abstract, but in practice, qualified immunity is remarkably ineffective at fulfilling this intended purpose. I come back to the scholarship of Joanna Schwartz, who demonstrated two key points in a 2017 article called How Qualified Immunity FailsFirst, only a small fraction of the cases in which qualified immunity could be raised are ultimately dismissed on these grounds — which indicates that other mechanisms were sufficient to weed out genuinely non‐meritorious claims. Second, when cases were dismissed on the basis of qualified immunity, this occurred far more frequently at the summary judgment stage of litigation, rather than at the motion‐to‐dismiss stage. In other words, even when defendants successfully got a claim dismissed on the basis of qualified immunity, this usually only occurred after discovery, which is generally the longest and most costly stage of litigation anyway. This means that qualified immunity is actually failing at its own goals of preventing government defendants from being subjected to lawsuits in the first place.

If it is actually the case, or it ends up being the case, that non‐meritorious civil rights litigation is a costly and distracting problem for police officers, then that issue is worth addressing. Perhaps it’s worth investigating whether something like anti‐SLAPP laws would be useful in the civil rights context, so that factually unsupported claims can be quickly dismissed. But qualified immunity is uniquely ill‐suited to address this supposed problem; the practical effect of the doctrine is not to weed out bad cases, but to deny relief to victims whose rights have been violated.
Also remember. We didn't have qualified immunity before 1967. We didn't have modern qualified immunity before 1982. 

Why is it so bad to get rid of it now?


Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3674 on: June 19, 2020, 05:51:57 PM »
The world has changed.  The US has far more lawyers per capita than anywhere else.

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3675 on: June 19, 2020, 05:55:27 PM »
The Most Common Defenses of Qualified Immunity, and Why They’re Wrong

Also remember. We didn't have qualified immunity before 1967. We didn't have modern qualified immunity before 1982.

Why is it so bad to get rid of it now?


The number of lawyers has grown quite a bit since the 1960's. We have turned into a litigious society. I don't believe it was anything close to that in the 60's.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3676 on: June 19, 2020, 06:02:24 PM »
Fair enough.

So second question... If you can sue police departments now (and people do), how will it become worse if we can sue officers? 

Assuming we have, in the case of NYC, a $300M payout per year based upon run-rate lawsuits for their officers violating citizens' Constitutional rights, what is the argument that the number of lawsuits will go up simply because the individual officers can be sued instead of the department? 

My argument is that right now, officers are basically shielded from any concern about that $300M because it doesn't come out of their own pocket, they are protected from most disciplinary actions by their union, and thus they don't have incentive towards good behavior. My argument is that if they are incentivized via insurance premiums, they WILL now have an incentive towards good behavior, and perhaps we'll bring that $300M down, which will eventually lower their premiums (while getting rid of the bad apples who price themselves out)...

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3677 on: June 19, 2020, 06:06:25 PM »
The money cannot come out of their pocket, it's simply impossible.  

longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3678 on: June 19, 2020, 06:11:40 PM »
I think the courts would make you do away with QI for all city workers if you took it away from the police

and if that happened the municipality could be in a world of hurt
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3679 on: June 19, 2020, 06:33:47 PM »
I think the courts would make you do away with QI for all city workers if you took it away from the police

and if that happened the municipality could be in a world of hurt
Really? How many other city workers are being sued for violating constitutional rights and getting the suits tossed out based on a QI defense?

Are city health inspectors regularly getting sued by restaurants and I missed it?

The money cannot come out of their pocket, it's simply impossible. 
The point of insurance is that any judgment against you doesn't come out of your pocket. But the point of premiums coming out of your pocket is you actually have an incentive to behave in ways to reduce your premium. 

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3680 on: June 19, 2020, 06:49:03 PM »
Yeah, sort-of, but not exactly.

That's not what this is, at all.

Even so, Gundy should probably understand the viewpoints of his team well enough to know that being a Trump supporter is going to be an unpopular view.  That much, at least, is on him.

As you know, my brother works in education at the university level.  His bosses and peers and his students are largely liberals.  He's not the smartest guy, but he's much smarter than Gundy.  Not saying much.  My brother understands very well that he can't speak his mind or wear t-shirts that show his political views w/o offending those around him.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Honestbuckeye

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3681 on: June 19, 2020, 06:56:27 PM »
As you know, my brother works in education at the university level.  His bosses and peers and his students are largely liberals.  He's not the smartest guy, but he's much smarter than Gundy.  Not saying much.  My brother understands very well that he can't speak his mind or wear t-shirts that show his political views w/o offending those around him.
Lol.  Dialogue my ass
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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