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Topic: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness

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bwarbiany

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6356 on: August 11, 2020, 01:06:50 PM »
if the police were justified then thats sufficient
I didn't want to dig into it. Because quite often, the arbiter of whether police are "justified" is their own statements about the facts without the availability of body-camera or other corroboration. As I said, it's not a high bar to clear. 

This isn't a racial question. I'm legitimately asking "why is it so much higher here?"

Maybe there's a valid explanation. We have tons of guns in this country, MUCH higher than most of those other listed countries, so it's possible that the majority of those police shootings were justified by the aggressive weapon-wielding actions of the person who was killed. I don't know.

Maybe Americans are, on average, just much more violent than people in those other countries and those were almost all legitimate instances of the person killed attacking the cops. 

But much like the question about the US having the highest incarceration rate in the industrialized world, we're a SIGNIFICANT outlier here, and I'd like to know why. Maybe the answer is trigger-happy cops, regardless of whether they can string together facts that make the killings nominally "justified". 

847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6357 on: August 11, 2020, 01:14:29 PM »
Regardless of "justification" which isn't always the highest bar to clear, might we ask why we're 3.5x on a population-adjusted level over Canada and Australia, and why we're >10x as high as most of Europe?

What is unique about America that police are killing so many more people than other "comparable" countries?
I don't know that there is any country "comparable" to ours. What I do know is that there are far too many illegal weapons on our streets, and too many people use them.
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longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6358 on: August 11, 2020, 01:17:14 PM »
Its hard to come up with a response to a claim that a police shooting is not justified even though a review board says it is

so Im gonna jump off here 
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bwarbiany

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6359 on: August 11, 2020, 01:24:23 PM »
I don't know that there is any country "comparable" to ours. What I do know is that there are far too many illegal weapons on our streets, and too many people use them.
Its hard to come up with a response to a claim that a police shooting is not justified even though a review board says it is

so Im gonna jump off here
I'm not trying to play a gotcha game here.

Policing is hard. Often you have to subdue a suspect that is not compliant. In the cases where a suspect was not compliant, in those cases the use of force is considered "justified". 

American cops killing a MUCH higher portion of suspects each year can have multiple reasons:

  • Maybe more Americans are non-compliant than other countries. More Americans fight back against cops, more Americans are drug addicted or mentally ill and on the streets, and they don't comply with police during stops. 
  • Maybe Americans, as a result of having so many more guns in this country, raise the stakes of non-compliance by flashing their piece and the police have to resort to deadly force rather than other compliance methods because they are facing more firepower. 
  • Maybe American cops resort to deadly force more often and in similar situations compared to those other countries, so they're reaching for their sidearm when there are much more humane and yet also effective ways to gain compliance. This could be de-escalation, could be less-than-lethal measures like tasers, etc. 

Options #1 and #2 aren't really police problems at all. They might be completely different societal differences between America and those other countries. I'm just asking whether it's that, or whether it's #3, which is something we could potentially fix by improving our policing.


GopherRock

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6360 on: August 11, 2020, 01:24:56 PM »
In a similar vein to the above discussion:


https://twitter.com/StarTribune/status/1291710001904603137


Kris60

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6361 on: August 11, 2020, 01:25:09 PM »
The deaths of citizens at the hands of law enforcement compared to other countries is definitely alarming. There is no doubt about that.  I’m all for looking into that closer and finding out why.

What isn’t alarming, at least not to me, is when those deaths are broken out by race.  A statistic often cited is blacks account for roughly 25% of all police shootings while only making up 13% of the population.  But they also account for roughly 50% of the murders in this country.

If statistically, blacks are more likely to interact with the public in a hostile/violent  way is it a stretch to think they are more likely to interact with the cops in the same way?

847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6362 on: August 11, 2020, 01:53:45 PM »
Options #1 and #2 aren't really police problems at all. They might be completely different societal differences between America and those other countries. I'm just asking whether it's that, or whether it's #3, which is something we could potentially fix by improving our policing.


I don't know we could improve our policing now. They have been neutered, to the point where many will walk away rather than engage. This, combined with efforts to defund them, will not improve policing. Another problem.. Who really wants to be a cop right now? The increase in retirement applications in NYC is staggering.

Now, if you want to seriously think about how to reform policing, you could look at better training up-front (AAS/technical degree/certificate program or equivalent), busting up the unions, and making the them accountable to a professional board by requiring each of them to possess a professional license in the state that they practice. 10-12 hours of continuing education per year. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6363 on: August 15, 2020, 04:56:17 PM »
i'm back.

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6364 on: August 15, 2020, 04:57:53 PM »
Countries I think could be "better" for some folks than the US:

NZ
Australia
Switzerland
Canada
Portugal  (sort of)
Denmark

There are some others.  I'm happy here.


CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6365 on: August 15, 2020, 05:00:03 PM »
. . . Now, if you want to seriously think about how to reform policing, you could look at better training up-front (AAS/technical degree/certificate program or equivalent), busting up the unions, and making the them accountable to a professional board by requiring each of them to possess a professional license in the state that they practice. 10-12 hours of continuing education per year.
I like those suggestions.
That and getting rid of police unions.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6366 on: August 15, 2020, 05:38:26 PM »
Countries I think could be "better" for some folks than the US:

NZ
Australia
Switzerland
Canada
Portugal  (sort of)
Denmark

There are some others.  I'm happy here.


How dare you!
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6367 on: August 15, 2020, 05:39:41 PM »
I see nothing particularly daring in my post.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6368 on: August 15, 2020, 05:45:51 PM »
Neither do I.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #6369 on: August 16, 2020, 10:49:29 AM »
pisses me OFF!
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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