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Topic: 2019 B1G-E Race

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2019, 10:45:49 AM »
Michigan is facing structural issues versus OSU. Like Medina said, we are losing because we are the worse program, not because we can't handle the psychology of the game. Program inadequacy is the kind of thing that takes a minimum of 5-10 years to correct, up to a maximum of infinite years (if for example the 2000s were a watershed decade rather than just another ol' decade).

I don't care which years the next win or all the next wins arrive but if Michigan wins 40% of the time over the next 5-10 years after the recruiting and program advantage OSU built over the previous 20 years, then Harbaugh will rank somewhere between magician and "not entirely sure ... but certainly worth the money and absolutely insane to fire."

For now, I have no choice but to be pleased by the trajectory of the programs. That Michigan is on the cusp again in November. That, from 2016-2018, OSU week has been more up in the air than was normal from 2001-2015. Michigan is clearly improving as a program.

And then I'm hopeful that continuing  this will close the gap when paired with OSU entering the afterstages of two decades of two legendary coaches and into a new unknown. Day starts with a fully built, highest end program, of course. But inheriting it isn't enough; he also has to maintain it like the legends did.

This is a very calm and rational way to look at it and it is difficult for most of us, as fans, to do that. 

You make a very interesting point.  Over the past few years Harbaugh appears to have made the same transition that Cooper successfully made in the early 1990's. 

If you go back to Earle Bruce, he started out great with a Rose Bowl and nearly a NC in his first year of 1979.  From then through his sixth season and second (and last) Rose Bowl in the 1984 season Ohio State, as a program, was on an equal footing with Michigan:
 - Ohio State won as the better team in 1979
 - Michigan won as the better team in 1980 (it was close as to which team was better)
 - Ohio State won in 1981 and both teams finished 9-3
 - Ohio State won as the better team in 1982 (it was close as to which team was better)
 - Michigan won in 1983 and both teams finished 9-3
 - Ohio State won as the better team in 1984 (in their defense, Michigan would have been better if not for some injuries)

So by my count Ohio State was 3-0 as the better team, 0-1 as the inferior team, and 1-1 as equals. 

Then, starting in 1985 and continuing for Bruce's last three years and Cooper's first five years, Michigan was generally a better team for eight years:
 - Michigan won as the better team in 1985
 - Michigan won as the better team in 1986
 - Ohio State pulled off an upset as an inferior team in 1987
 - Michigan won as the better team in each of 1988, 1989, 1990, and 1991
 - Michigan was better in 1992 and the teams tied

Then Cooper accomplished the transition of catching or passing Michigan "as a program" but he just couldn't close the deal and beat the Wolverines "as a team":
 - Ohio State lost as the better team in 1993
 - Ohio State won as the inferior team in 1994
 - Ohio State lost as the better team in 1995
 - Ohio State lost as the better team in 1996
 - Ohio State lost as the inferior team in 1997
 - Ohio State won as the better team in 1998
 - Ohio State lost as the inferior team in 1999
 - Ohio State lost as the inferior team in 2000 (it was close as to which team was better)

So for Cooper's last eight years, by my count:
 - Ohio State was the better team four years but only went 1-3
 - Michigan was the better team four years and went 3-1

Ohio State had to change coaches to get over the hump and start actually beating Michigan but Cooper (whom I rarely defend) does deserve credit for setting the table for Tressel's success.  Cooper got Ohio State "as a program" onto or arguably ahead of Michigan's level. 

That really is the first step.  Without that the best-case-scenario is simply to pull off an occasional upset.  From Tressel's arrival up until the last few years, Ohio State was the better team and expected winner almost every year:
 - 2001:  Michigan was better but lost
 - 2002:  Ohio State was better and won
 - 2003:  The teams were about equal, Michigan won
 - 2004:  Michigan was better but lost
 - 2005:  Ohio State was better and won
 - 2006:  Ohio State was better and won
 - 2007:  Ohio State was better and won
 - 2008:  Ohio State was better and won
 - 2009:  Ohio State was better and won
 - 2010:  Ohio State was better and won (subsequently vacated)
 - 2011:  Michigan was better and won
 - 2012:  Ohio State was better and won
 - 2013:  Ohio State was better and won
 - 2014:  Ohio State was better and won

So by my count, for the 14 years prior to Harbaugh's arrival in Ann Arbor:
 - Michigan was the better team three years, 1-2
 - Michigan was about equal once, 1-0
 - Michigan was the inferior team 10 times, 0-10

There are two separate problems here for Michigan.  As I see it, the primary problem is simply being inferior most years.  Even if the Wolverines had won in 2001, 2004, and 2011 when they had a better team as well as 2003 when the teams were about equal they still would only have been 4-10 against the Buckeyes simply because the Buckeyes were usually a better team. 

Problem #2 is losing even when they are the better team.  As I see it, this is a lesser problem.  It is easier to correct.  However, I should acknowledge here based on my 1993-1996 experience that this is the more annoying problem. 

Harbaugh has arguably largely fixed problem #1:
 - In 2015 Ohio State came into THE GAME 10-1, Michigan came in 9-2
 - In 2016 Ohio State came into THE GAME 10-1, Michigan came in 10-1
 - In 2017 Ohio State came into THE GAME 9-2, Michigan came in 8-3
 - In 2018 Ohio State came into THE GAME 10-1, Michigan came in 10-1

So in his four years Harbaugh has entered the Ohio State game with a record either as good as or within one game of the Buckeyes.  That is relatively equal.  That part of the problem is largely fixed. 

Cincydawg

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2019, 11:46:32 AM »
The 2018 result is one I think that will linger unless Michigan can reverse it rather quickly over the next 3 years or so.

It would be interesting if anyone knows what the line was on recent Games as compared with the result.  Has OSU won consistently ATS in The Game since whenever?

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2019, 12:43:43 PM »
It would be interesting if anyone knows what the line was on recent Games as compared with the result.  Has OSU won consistently ATS in The Game since whenever?

I thought about doing the comparison that way but it just looked like a lot of work in part because I have no idea where to go to find spreads of games from prior years. 

CWSooner

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2019, 02:18:09 PM »
Which is bigger--the joy of a win as the inferior team or the disappointment of a loss as the superior team?
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2019, 05:11:55 PM »
Which is bigger--the joy of a win as the inferior team or the disappointment of a loss as the superior team?

I think it depends on the recent history.  I think that matters a LOT in rivalries.  Earlier in this thread we saw @Mdot21 saying he'd rather be 1-11 with a win over Ohio State than 11-1 with a B1G Championship and a loss to Ohio State.  When Cooper was losing EVERY year to Michigan I felt that way in reverse. 

I think that rivalries are always more important to fans of the team that has been losing lately than they are to the team that has been winning lately.  When Ohio State won in 2001 as an inferior team Ohio State fans were ecstatic.  Our team hadn't won since 1998, hadn't won in Ann Arbor since 1987, had gone 2-10-1 in the previous 13 years under Cooper, and 3-12-1 in the previous 16 years (1985-2000).  The rivalry was HUGE to us. 

To put that in perspective, I turned 10 in 1985.  I only vaguely remember the 1985 Rose Bowl and have not direct recollection of the 1984 season and the 1984 (and prior) wins over Michigan.  Here are the Michigan games that I do remember:
 - From the time I graduated from Ohio State through 2000 the Buckeyes went 1-3 against Michigan
 - When I was a student at Ohio State the Buckeyes went 1-4 against Michigan
 - When I was in High School the Buckeyes went 0-3-1 against Michigan
 - When I was in Junior High the Buckeyes went 1-1 against Michigan
 - When I was in 5th and 6th grade the Buckeyes went 0-2 against Michigan

While Ohio State fans were ecstatic over the 2001 win I think most Michigan fans simply thought "well it was bound to happen eventually" or "a broken clock is right twice a day", or "the sun shines even on a dog's #$$ once in a while".  That is how I will feel initially when Michigan eventually beats Ohio State. 

My thinking is that fans of the team that has been winning lately basically shrug off a loss and are happy but not ecstatic with wins.  Conversely, fans of the team that has been losing lately get ecstatic over wins and crazy over losses. 

Mdot21

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2019, 06:26:38 PM »
The 2018 result is one I think that will linger unless Michigan can reverse it rather quickly over the next 3 years or so.

It would be interesting if anyone knows what the line was on recent Games as compared with the result.  Has OSU won consistently ATS in The Game since whenever?
2016 result stings way more for me. Not it even close. 

That 2016 team blew a game they were absolutely dominating on the road in Columbus. Blew it in large part thanks to Wilton Speight gifting a 21 point swing to Ohio State. Forget the “blown call”, that call could’ve gone either way- went the wrong way for Michigan and I don’t think you can pin a loss on one call by the refs. 

Speight fumbled led the ball at OSU’s 1 yard line, OSU recovers. Wipes away 6 and a PAT which is like 99%. So that’s 7 right there. If that wasn’t bad enough he threw a pick 6 and threw another bad interception that got returned to the red zone and with a PF call on Michigan tacked on to the end of the return OSU got the ball at the goal line- like the 2 yard line.

They’d have fared better just running the ball every single play out of the wildcat and sitting Speight on the bench that game.

CWSooner

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2019, 07:18:37 PM »
I think it depends on the recent history.  I think that matters a LOT in rivalries.  Earlier in this thread we saw @Mdot21 saying he'd rather be 1-11 with a win over Ohio State than 11-1 with a B1G Championship and a loss to Ohio State.  When Cooper was losing EVERY year to Michigan I felt that way in reverse. 

I think that rivalries are always more important to fans of the team that has been losing lately than they are to the team that has been winning lately.  When Ohio State won in 2001 as an inferior team Ohio State fans were ecstatic.  Our team hadn't won since 1998, hadn't won in Ann Arbor since 1987, had gone 2-10-1 in the previous 13 years under Cooper, and 3-12-1 in the previous 16 years (1985-2000).  The rivalry was HUGE to us. 

To put that in perspective, I turned 10 in 1985.  I only vaguely remember the 1985 Rose Bowl and have not direct recollection of the 1984 season and the 1984 (and prior) wins over Michigan.  Here are the Michigan games that I do remember:
 - From the time I graduated from Ohio State through 2000 the Buckeyes went 1-3 against Michigan
 - When I was a student at Ohio State the Buckeyes went 1-4 against Michigan
 - When I was in High School the Buckeyes went 0-3-1 against Michigan
 - When I was in Junior High the Buckeyes went 1-1 against Michigan
 - When I was in 5th and 6th grade the Buckeyes went 0-2 against Michigan

While Ohio State fans were ecstatic over the 2001 win I think most Michigan fans simply thought "well it was bound to happen eventually" or "a broken clock is right twice a day", or "the sun shines even on a dog's #$$ once in a while".  That is how I will feel initially when Michigan eventually beats Ohio State. 

My thinking is that fans of the team that has been winning lately basically shrug off a loss and are happy but not ecstatic with wins.  Conversely, fans of the team that has been losing lately get ecstatic over wins and crazy over losses.
Well put.
I didn't realize how dominant Michigan was from 1985 through 2000.  12-3-1 if I counted right.  (To put THAT in perspective, I was in the Army for most of that time, and not always able to follow CFB.  I don't think I knew that Oklahoma was playing for the 1985 national championship vs. Penn State until I saw on the cover of Sports Illustrated that the Sooners had won.)
We have an equivalent rivalry with Texas, of course.  And that rivalry has usually gone in streaks.
OU won five straight from 2000 through 2004.  Then Texas won four of five from 2005 through 2009.
Since Texas won the 2009 game, team records, final rankings, bowl selections, etc., have indicated that OU has consistently been the superior team.  And over the last nine seasons, including the 2018 Big 12 CCG, OU has gone 7-3, which is good. But 4 of those wins were by one score or less.  And two the losses came when OU was 5-0 and Texas 3-2, and OU 5-0 and Texas 1-4.
A win over the biggest rival is always something to celebrate.  But when your team is supposedly the "better team," it can seem like there should be more of them, or that they should be by bigger margins instead of nail-biters.  And, again when your team is supposed to be the better one, the losses can seem inexplicable, almost as if the other team should have just known that it was supposed to lose and played accordingly.  Those losses I just described felt worse than the narrow wins felt good.
Rivalry games can cause us to lose our power of thinking objectively.  But I hope things don't get so bad that I would prefer a 1-11 season with a win over Texas rather than an 11-1 season with a loss to Texas.
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FearlessF

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2019, 08:54:18 PM »
those Horn fans can REALLY get on your nerves when they are putting it on ya
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Briguy

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2019, 02:45:30 PM »
Who wouldn't want scenario #1? OSU and ND are huge, but a Big Ten championship is literally the highest regular season thing Michigan can theoretically accomplish.
Lol, no. Any UM fan that says they would take a loss to OSU and still make the Big championship is lying. 

Briguy

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2019, 03:02:06 PM »
I hear you, but I just want a win over Ohio State. Can’t take it anymore.

It’s 2019. Since the year 2000 Michigan has beaten Ohio State....THRICE. So 3 times in basically 20 years. I just want a damn win over Ohio State at this point. The domination started with Tressel toying with LC and forcing him into retirement. This OSU run of domination is even more dominate than Michigan had over Cooper. Can’t take it anymore man. It’s hardly even a rivalry anymore. Im at the point where if Jim doesn’t win this AT home with a SR QB vs Not Urban Meyer and the Georgia QB castoff then I’m done with him.
And the last 2 UM wins over OSU:
2003- thanks Maurice Clarrett for costing us back to back National Championships
2011- OSUs worst team I think I’ve ever seen

The UM fans I know would also never take an OSU loss to get to the BIG championship. 

847badgerfan

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2019, 03:49:33 PM »
2003.. The Reynolds choke hold. Grrr...
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2019, 03:54:15 PM »
Lol, no. Any UM fan that says they would take a loss to OSU and still make the Big championship is lying.
Ha, except I'm saying it and suspect it's a majority opinion - at least among alumni and fans who don't live in Ohio.

And as medina expressed, the opposite opinion (Buckeyes preferring  a Big Ten crown with a M loss more than an M win without a Big Ten crown) may be gaining popularity for OSU fans in the CFP era. Although I understand your incredulity, as historically it seems fewer OSU fans have felt this way than M fans.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 04:01:29 PM by Anonymous Coward »

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2019, 05:16:46 PM »
2003.. The Reynolds choke hold. Grrr...
That still annoys me because it was embarrassing.  That was the year I went to Camp Randall and losing isn't embarrassing, I've dealt with that plenty.  Having one of your guys do that was embarrassing!  

Cincydawg

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Re: 2019 B1G-E Race
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2019, 11:11:03 AM »
Rivalries appear often to be streaky ... UGA UF comes to mind also.  For a while Florida was simply way better, but UGA caught up and still had issues.

 

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