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Topic: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread

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ELA

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #588 on: December 05, 2019, 12:05:06 AM »
A nice win, but like Nova, I am not sure how good the opponent is.  Nice to see stadium O-H-I-O in the Dean Dome though.  We'll know more about the Bucks after Saturday.
I think they were clearly overrated, but they are still a top 15 team, in a tough true road environment.

ELA

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #589 on: December 05, 2019, 12:11:34 AM »
Remember when MSU chose Foster Loyer over Duane Washington Jr....sigh...

847badgerfan

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #590 on: December 05, 2019, 07:55:38 AM »
Gonna be a long season in Madison.

I was unable to watch, but it doesn't sound good.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

ELA

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #591 on: December 05, 2019, 09:17:18 AM »
UNC now one spot behind PSU in KenPom.

Who knew OSU's toughest game this week was on Saturday?

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #592 on: December 05, 2019, 09:56:39 AM »
UNC now one spot behind PSU in KenPom.

Who knew OSU's toughest game this week was on Saturday?
Most definitely nobody.  I thought that blue-blood and Top-10 UNC looked like more than the Bucks could probably handle.  

FWIW:  At least in theory the PSU game should still be marginally easier because it is at home rather than in the home arena of a perennial top-10 team with a rabid fanbase.  KenPom rankings through yesterday's games:
  • #1 Louisville
  • #2 Ohio State
  • #3 Dook
  • #4 Michigan State
  • #5 Purdue
  • #6 Kansas
  • #7 Maryland
  • #8 Kentucky
  • #9 Gonzaga
  • #10 Virginia
  • #11 Baylor
  • #12 Auburn
  • #13 Michigan
  • #14 Seton Hall
  • #15 Oregon
  • #16 Villanova
  • #17 Butler
  • #18 Florida State
  • #19 Arizona
  • #20 Indiana
  • #21 Tennessee
  • #22 Dayton
  • #23 Penn State
  • #24 North Carolina
  • #25 SDSU
  • #39 Iowa
  • #44 Illinois
  • #60 Wisconsin
  • #66 Minnesota
  • #76 Rutgers
  • #98 Northwestern
  • #146 Nebraska

If these are anywhere close to right the conference is going to be a VERY tough grind this year.  We have four of the top-7, half the conference is in the top-25, and we only have two truly bad teams.  


Per earlier discussion we agreed to wait until the week of Christmas to rearrange the tiers but for review, here is what we have right now:
  • Michigan State (#4 in current Ken Pom)
  • tOSU (#2), PU (#5), UMD (#7), 
  • M (#13), IL (#44), UW (#60)
  • IU (#20), PSU (#23), IA (#39)
  • MN (#66), RU (#76)
  • NU (#98), UNL (#146)


MaximumSam

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #593 on: December 05, 2019, 10:15:27 AM »
With conference play starting was going to throw in KenPom but MEdina beat me to it.  So here' Torvik's rankings, which are also efficiency rankings and I think have less preseason inertia than KenPom does at this point in the season.

1. OSU (1)
2. Purdue (4)
3. Maryland (5)
4. MSU (8)
5. Michigan (11)
6. Penn State (12)
7. Indiana (26)
8. Illinois (41)
9. Iowa (47)
10. Wisconsin (54)
11. Minnesota (67)
12. Rutgers (69)
13. Northwestern (99)
14. Nebraska (153)

That top 6, wow.  Also, Michigan has looked great outside of the one game at Louisville, and they are 5th - there are going to be some fun games in this conference this season. Already looking interesting:

Iowa goes to Michigan Friday (6:30, FS1)
Penn State @ OSU Saturday at noon on BTN.  Apparently not going to start my sports day watching football Saturday.  
Hoosiers go to Wisconsin Saturday (4:30, BTN)
Illinois at Maryland Saturday (5 pm, ESPN2)

The SOC thread gonna have a lot of basketball talk in it.  Sorry in advance.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #594 on: December 05, 2019, 01:23:52 PM »
What a difference a day makes!

I realize I should have pulled Sagarin both before and after the ACC-B1G challenge, and failed to do so. I did tabulate the numbers yesterday before the games, and then again today, and we had quite a few pretty significant finishes. Huge wins from Purdue and OSU, and solid performances from PSU and Maryland, balanced against lackluster finishes from Nebraska and Wisconsin.

So, this early in the season, let's look at the impact of these results...

As of pregame, Dec 4 2019:



Then compare that to this morning, Dec 5 2019:




  • Ohio State's bump was minimal, at 1 game added in both scheduled and RR wins. Their rating jumped by over 2 points, though. So there just wasn't much room to improve the projected record.
  • Maryland remained with the same projected results, and only jumped rating by 0.05 points with a 21-point drubbing of Notre Dame. 
  • Purdue was the big gainer, with 5 additional projected schedule wins and 6 additional projected RR wins. The rating jumped around 3 1/2 points, which is pretty sizable for a single game. I also note that yesterday, Virginia's rating was 89.58, and today it was 85.81. They dropped from somewhere in the top 10 per Sagarin's ratings to 26th, while Purdue went from 40th in Sagarin yesterday to 17th. Huge swing for both teams.
  • Wisconsin and Penn State both showed minimal movement based on their results yesterday.
  • The big loser was Nebraska, with a massive loss to a mediocre P5 program in Georgia Tech. 

What this means:

Over on the Hammer and Rails site, there is a lot of question about the value of KenPom, who somewhat aggressively "smooths" out results, particularly early in the year. Part of this is continuing to weight last season's results until you get even into January. Purdue and Virginia, for example, swapped within a few positions after yesterday's result. Purdue rose to 5th from I believe 7th, and Virginia dropped from somewhere in the middle of the top 10 to only 10th. 

At the same time, Sagarin is showing wild swings. Purdue went from 4-3 and 40th to 5-3 and 17th. Virginia went from 7-0 and mid top 10 to 26th. Whether either of those ratings were correct/incorrect before yesterday's game, or are correct/incorrect after yesterday's game is immaterial. What is material is that any rating system with swings that wild is useless as a predictive tool based upon the limited data set that we have. If the swings are that great right now, the signal:noise ratio is just too low to be useful. 


KenPom tries to smooth those swings. Which doesn't make him any more correct, mind you, but he will be at least consistently correct or incorrect. He also uses previous season's results as part of that smoothing function, which can be hard in cases where, like Purdue and Virginia, a huge portion of minutes, scoring, and team chemistry graduated or went to the NBA. 

Personally, I'm more inclined to agree with the KenPom approach, at least early in the season. While I think Sagarin will round into form later, it makes his system basically useless as a predictor until there is enough data. Team strength of schedule can vary extremely widely in the non-con, and the teams are breaking in new players, new starting lineups, and new rotations. While there are areas where KenPom will be proven wrong over time, Sagarin is too volatile to be proven anything this early in the season anyway.

ELA

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #595 on: December 05, 2019, 02:01:40 PM »

Personally, I'm more inclined to agree with the KenPom approach, at least early in the season. While I think Sagarin will round into form later, it makes his system basically useless as a predictor until there is enough data.
This is the key, what are you using it for.  KenPom is fairly useless at this point as far as a metric of what team's have actually done, but is probably a better predictor, due to the fact that you don't completely throw away preseason expectations on December 5.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #596 on: December 05, 2019, 03:41:34 PM »
Impact of the B1G schedule per @bwarbiany 's #'s:


Per the numbers provided, Purdue gets the biggest boost from the schedule.  They miss four would-be losses and two would-be wins when they "should" miss almost exactly the opposite, 4.154 wins and 1.846 losses.   

This has a REALLY big impact on Purdue's projection.  They move from a projected tie for 4th/5th with Indiana into projected to finish alone in 3rd place.  

Iowa gets dinged hardest by the schedule.  They miss four would-be wins and two would-be losses when they should miss a little less than three wins and a little more than three losses.  

Iowa's unlucky schedule does not have much impact because the two teams closest to them in the rating (PSU and MN) also get dinged pretty hard by the schedule.  

mcwterps1

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #597 on: December 05, 2019, 03:58:28 PM »
Is nobody else following challenge?
I would, but I have an operation to run, and it's very busy this time of year. 

Looked at the scores this morning when I woke up at 12:40am. Very nice surprises. 

MichiFan87

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #598 on: December 06, 2019, 09:33:43 PM »
Johns finally had a good game against a decent team with several big rebounds, 2-3 from 3 and some other good plays.

Wagner making some great plays and needs to get more involved in the future.

Simpson is clearly proving to be a decent 3 point shooter now, which is great, because now it gives Michigan 5 shooters on the floor at all times. Meanwhile, DeJulius took some dumb shots but is still getting better. Brooks played pretty well, though.

Teske didn't play as much due to fouls, and Castleton got a bloody lip and couldn't defend Garza, but Austin Davis played well in unexpected minutes. Michigan might even consider keeping him for a 5th year at this point.

Turnovers and fouls weren't a big issue tonight. The refs were pretty bad tonight but fortunately didn't matter in the end.

Defense was better than the score indicates considering the higher tempo, and Iowa hit a ridiculous number of mid-range shots while not getting many 3 point attempts and only going 3-15 on them. Garza dominated but everyone else was shut down pretty well.

At Illinois is next. They're such an inconsistent team so I don't know what to expect....
“When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing”
― Bo Schembechler

Hawkeye0111

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #599 on: December 06, 2019, 11:35:40 PM »
It seemed pretty clear to me that Michigan was willing to let Garza go to work in the paint while completely shutting down attempts from 3.  Iowa is not a team that can consistently penetrate from the wing, and the defense is again suspect.  If other teams decide to replicate that strategy, Garza could have amazing stats on a team without a great record.

ELA

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #600 on: December 07, 2019, 01:29:23 PM »
Rocket Watts out multiple games, and sounds like Kyle Ahrens might be out too, joining Langford.  I don't even know what MSU's wing options are anymore.

MaximumSam

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Re: 2019-2020 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #601 on: December 07, 2019, 02:19:38 PM »
Wild looking score. OSU pretty lucky that Stevens got boned, but impressive win nonetheless. Shot 54 percent from 3

 

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