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Topic: 2018 Season Stream of Completely Off-Topic Unconsciousness

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Anonymous Coward

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #966 on: July 25, 2018, 01:09:43 AM »
I agree with that post (that there have been countless anonymous special talents...and that large concentrations of Einsteins may be impossible), but I think it's a separate point. My main point was that although great intelligence drives knowledge revolutions, when the knowledge is passed to others, the intelligence that created isn't transferred too. 
I.E.: Humanity keeps inheriting better books to read with the same class of brain.
Also: "Genius" is probably an overused (or at least poorly defined) term. He'd probably have been fine with it, but I think stopping at genius is an insult to a guy like Boltzmann, Darwin, or Feynman. In that school, the threshold for Mensa is kindergarten at best.
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #967 on: July 25, 2018, 01:24:31 AM »
Eh. I kind of crapped on the word Genius there. That's still not my main point, but just on that word, maybe you're using it perfectly. 

Maybe legendary minds are about what you call genius plus opportunity. But not just that socioeconomic or lived-long-enough opportunity, but the kind of opportunity that is the difference between Lincoln or Churchill being wartime legends versus average leaders through peacetime because their hidden gifts for rising to the occasion never received a full work-out (I.E.: the opportunity of being born with the right mind for precisely the right time).

I think you might be seeing this as sad. I think it could be a beautifully positive idea. Who knows? Maybe every healthy human is born with the potential to be an Einstein Of That Thing They Love Most if only they got the right fertilizer in the right community and are lucky enough to have been born into the specific era that forces their type of brain to max out.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 01:30:50 AM by Anonymous Coward »
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #968 on: July 25, 2018, 10:31:20 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 25, 2018, 12:24:51 AM
Well not to get political....

there's been far more "geniuses" than have been identified.  X% were born into 3rd-world country life, on the edge of life and death.  X% were aborted.  X% had to raise their siblings and got menial work in the system, living paycheck to paycheck without the luxury of downtime to wonder.  X% found the allure of $$$ on Wall St. and were content with fancy cars and trophy wives.

Unfortunately I can't find it, but I read an article showing how there was a correlation between the wealth of a country and what percentage of their International Math Olympiad medal winners went on to a career in mathematics. Predictably, the higher-income countries had a higher percentage of their medalists go on to math careers than the others.
I don't think the article took the next step to predict how much mathematics knowledge the world was foregoing without these folks from low-income countries. And they were clear that they weren't sure where those students ended up--they very well could have gone on to other sciences, engineering, information technology, etc. So it doesn't mean they were kept out of contributing to society because their nation was poor.
But mathematics is a highly-specialized field, where the difference between "genius" and "really really smart" is the difference whether you're on the forefront of expanding our knowledge or not. And those IMO medalists are pretty much riding on that edge, so the more of them that go into math, the more we as a human race progress. 
So yeah, there are a lot more geniuses in the world than have been identified. It's getting better, but there are most certainly some that fall through the cracks for a lot of reasons.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #969 on: July 25, 2018, 10:38:43 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous Coward on July 25, 2018, 01:24:31 AM
Maybe legendary minds are about what you call genius plus opportunity. But not just that socioeconomic or lived-long-enough opportunity, but the kind of opportunity that is the difference between Lincoln or Churchill being wartime legends versus average leaders through peacetime because their hidden gifts for rising to the occasion never received a full work-out (I.E.: the opportunity of being born with the right mind for precisely the right time).
What's really interesting is the degree to which major advances seem to be made in parallel, but separately.
The biggest example is calculus. Newton and Liebniz basically invented the calculus at the same time but completely independently. And although I'd have to do a lot of googling for other examples, this is a common phenomenon. Major breakthroughs often come in pairs by people or teams who are working completely independently.
I think perhaps "opportunity" is more powerful than we give credit. That when the general knowledge advances to a certain point, the "clues" of the next step are laying there for the right people to notice and pick up to make the next advance. One or two get the credit for it, but in how many cases are there 5-10 more who were probably 90% of the way there before the winners of the race announced that they'd solved it?
It almost makes you think that some of the way we herald these geniuses for being the first is giving them a glory that far outstrips what is "right". How many of these geniuses were 6 months, or 3 years, ahead of the next ten geniuses who would have picked up the same clues and made the same advances?
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FearlessF

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #970 on: July 25, 2018, 12:44:51 PM »
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ELA

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #971 on: July 25, 2018, 01:05:47 PM »
Fiutek put together a list of programs over the last 5 years, ranking the teams by the elite wins they have

https://collegefootballnews.com/2018/07/2018-cfn-five-year-program-analysis-fbs-elite-wins-rankings-no-1-130/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Big Ten highlights...

1. Ohio State
4t. Michigan State
13t. Penn State
19t. Iowa
22t. Wisconsin
26t. Indiana
42t. Nebraska
42t. Northwestern

None: Illinois, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Purdue, Rutgers
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #972 on: July 25, 2018, 03:37:50 PM »
Sounds right to me. For now Michigan is at least happy it climbed to the place where being beaten can give the opponent an elite win. I didn't click to see how the term is defined but obviously 2016 had to count.
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Riffraft

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #973 on: July 25, 2018, 03:59:27 PM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on July 25, 2018, 10:31:20 AM
Unfortunately I can't find it, but I read an article showing how there was a correlation between the wealth of a country and what percentage of their International Math Olympiad medal winners went on to a career in mathematics. Predictably, the higher-income countries had a higher percentage of their medalists go on to math careers than the others.
I don't think the article took the next step to predict how much mathematics knowledge the world was foregoing without these folks from low-income countries. And they were clear that they weren't sure where those students ended up--they very well could have gone on to other sciences, engineering, information technology, etc. So it doesn't mean they were kept out of contributing to society because their nation was poor.
But mathematics is a highly-specialized field, where the difference between "genius" and "really really smart" is the difference whether you're on the forefront of expanding our knowledge or not. And those IMO medalists are pretty much riding on that edge, so the more of them that go into math, the more we as a human race progress.
So yeah, there are a lot more geniuses in the world than have been identified. It's getting better, but there are most certainly some that fall through the cracks for a lot of reasons.
The problem with the field of mathematics is if you have made a significant contribution by the time you are 30 or so they odds are you are washed up and not going to make a real contribution. This about how most if not all the major breakthroughs (particular math and physics) have come when the "genius" was relatively young. 
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #974 on: July 25, 2018, 08:19:15 PM »
Quote from: ELA on July 25, 2018, 01:05:47 PM
Fiutek put together a list of programs over the last 5 years, ranking the teams by the elite wins they have

https://collegefootballnews.com/2018/07/2018-cfn-five-year-program-analysis-fbs-elite-wins-rankings-no-1-130/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Big Ten highlights...

1. Ohio State
4t. Michigan State
13t. Penn State
19t. Iowa
22t. Wisconsin
26t. Indiana
42t. Nebraska
42t. Northwestern

None: Illinois, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Purdue, Rutgers
These are fun, but when a win against App St or Memphis is valued the equal of Alabama in the playoff, no thanks.
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #975 on: July 25, 2018, 10:05:18 PM »
A good measure of program health that OAM and medina have mentioned that I like is whether a team is still in contention for the conference championship and CoFoPO in the final week of the regular season. 
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ELA

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #976 on: July 26, 2018, 07:37:58 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous Coward on July 25, 2018, 10:05:18 PM
A good measure of program health that OAM and medina have mentioned that I like is whether a team is still in contention for the conference championship and CoFoPO in the final week of the regular season.
I don't think this is a measure of anything other than what it claims to be a measure of.
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bayareabadger

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #977 on: July 26, 2018, 07:59:32 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous Coward on July 25, 2018, 10:05:18 PM
A good measure of program health that OAM and medina have mentioned that I like is whether a team is still in contention for the conference championship and CoFoPO in the final week of the regular season.
Hmmm, this seems like it would be applicable to a small number of school. And would be very schedule based. 
It seems like an interesting measure of fan feelings when a team is right at the top. I remember the “in contention for” bit was used when Nebraska fired Solich. 
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #978 on: July 26, 2018, 08:07:45 AM »
Quote from: ELA on July 26, 2018, 07:37:58 AM
I don't think this is a measure of anything other than what it claims to be a measure of.
I think it is another of many measures of relevance. And, analogous to what you were saying in the Poll for Big Ten safeties (about how, in a system with only a first and second team, would-be third teamers are forgotten as if the same as would-be fiftieth teamers), it's more forgiving than, for example, a more traditional measure (also legitimate) that counts the CG participants and treats the remainders as the same. And not unfoundedly. Being in the race for the BTCG and CoFoPO in the last weekend of November is a Top 5 or Top 10 characteristic.
I also doubt that measure would place Wisconsin fifth, and in the company of Indiana and Nebraska.
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ELA

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Re: 2018 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #979 on: July 26, 2018, 08:10:45 AM »
I never took this as a measure of relevance.  I took it as exactly what it says it is, a measure of big wins.  You could have been horrible for the last 5 years, but if you pulled one massive upset you'd elevate yourself.  I wouldn't think that would elevate your status as a program.  If people are taking it as a measure of anything more than that, that's on them.
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