Justin Jefferson, 2019So, my friend. They don't vote on the thing after the bowls. They vote before the bowls. And before the bowls, here's Jefferson's line.
111-1,540-18
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DaVonta Smith, 2020
98-1,511-17
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Smith. EasilyDidn't Bama actually lose their top receiver earlier in the season and this kid emerged?
Didn't Bama actually lose their top receiver earlier in the season and this kid emerged?Emerged is strong. He had 1,256 yards last year and stayed for some reason, but the other kid had 557 yards in four games.
Yeah, I know there's plenty of variables. I just don't like the randomness of it. Smith is great, he's having a great season, but it seems almost arbitrary that he's getting love and some absolute dominant baller WRs have been largely ignored. It's just lame.I feel you on the arbitrariness. I actually think the reason is somewhat simple.
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Didn't Bama actually lose their top receiver earlier in the season and this kid emerged?Smith was the #1 coming back, Waddle was good, too.
I'd like for some old people with money to come out with a Heisman/Maxwell alternative, given to the best player each year. The actual best player. Almost half the time, it'd be a lineman. A LB every so often. A CB. A safety. A WR. You know, NOT the best QB on a top 5 team.He deserved better.
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For some reason, I can't get Arizona LB Scooby Wright's 2014 season out of my head. 164 tackles, 15 sacks, 31 TFL overall.
0 first place votes.
I'd like for some old people with money to come out with a Heisman/Maxwell alternative, given to the best player each year. The actual best player. Almost half the time, it'd be a lineman. A LB every so often. A CB. A safety. A WR. You know, NOT the best QB on a top 5 team.I remember Scooby Wright’s stats being like something you would see on the original Tecmo Bowl. You know how they gave Mike Singletary a bunch of sacks on his stat line even though he wasn’t a pass rusher? That’s how Scooby Wright’s stat line was that year. It seemed made up.
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For some reason, I can't get Arizona LB Scooby Wright's 2014 season out of my head. 164 tackles, 15 sacks, 31 TFL overall.
0 first place votes.
That's why I have an issue voting for Mac Jones. What luxury doesn't he have? He hands the ball off to an NFL RB. He is protected by an NFL offensive line. He's throwing to NFL WRs. He has a good defense to get him the ball back. He has the best HC. He has a great OC.He's not in the running for me. I would have voted for Burrow last year, but that's the exception not the rule for me. He was just so far and away the best. If I had to vote for a quarterback, it would be Trask, and I don't think any running backs or defensive players stepped up, so he'd probably get my #2 vote.
He could play left-handed and be above-average.
That's why I have an issue voting for Mac Jones. What luxury doesn't he have? He hands the ball off to an NFL RB. He is protected by an NFL offensive line. He's throwing to NFL WRs. He has a good defense to get him the ball back. He has the best HC. He has a great OC.On the on hand, I wouldn't vote for Jones, but I see the case. It maybe has some #Narrative, but that is what it is.
He could play left-handed and be above-average.
I'm not clear on how cfbstats computes qb rating, but Mac Jones has the highest recorded on their site.The best-ever pass rating has increased every year for the past 5 years. Literally. It's stupid.
I think Kirk Cousins is like #7 all time in NFL passer ratingLooked it up, #6. Joe Montana and Steve Young are the only two in the top 35 to not play in the 2000s.
Looked it up, #6. Joe Montana and Steve Young are the only two in the top 35 to not play in the 2000s.There are old people in Wisconsin who still worship Bart Starr.
IIRC it has to do with completion percentage being way too highly valued in the formula.
Blake Bottles is above Bart Start and John Elway
Looked it up, #6. Joe Montana and Steve Young are the only two in the top 35 to not play in the 2000s.Probably true, though YPA is a big part too.
IIRC it has to do with completion percentage being way too highly valued in the formula.
Blake Bottles is above Bart Start and John Elway
There are old people in Wisconsin who still worship Bart Starr.Bart Starr sounds like a fake ass male pornstar name. Lol.
I think Kirk Cousins is like #7 all time in NFL passer ratingNFL passer rating has to be the weirdest stat ever. Does anyone even know how it’s calculated?
NFL passer rating has to be the weirdest stat ever. Does anyone even know how it’s calculated?Here you go: http://www.primecomputing.com/formula.htm
NFL passer rating has to be the weirdest stat ever. Does anyone even know how it’s calculated?Yeah, any forumula that tops out at 158.3 has some 'splainin' to do.
Bart Starr sounds like a fake ass male pornstar name. Lol.Loved the names of yore,Butkus,Nietzsche,Sayers,Ditka,Unitas,Deacon Jones,Claude Humphrey,Tombstone Jackson,Buck Buchanon,Curly Culp,Slinging Sammy Baugh,Otis taylor,Sonny Jurgenson,Floyd Little,Conrad Dobler,Bubba Smith,Don Nottingham,Rosey Grier,Merlin Olsen,Walt Garrison,Hacksaw Reynolds,Mad Stork Hendricks,Otis Sistrunk,Lem Barney,Night Train Lane,Mike lanier,John Hadl,Forest Gregg,Jim ringo,Boyd Dowler,Gino Marchetti,Gene Hickerson,Lombardi,Otto Graham....you get the point
Now can we dial up the proverbial “ Heisman Jinx “ please.Not unless Antoine Winfield or Shawn Springs is walking through that door....
https://twitter.com/RedditCFB/status/1346629083728211968?s=19Now THAT'S cultural appropriation!
Not unless Antoine Winfield or Shawn Springs is walking through that door....I don’t think they could even cover him.
Springs was so good, he was an AA, B10 defensive POY, etc without having an INT. That's some mad respect.Can’t pick the zero balls thrown your way.
Antoine Winfield was better at baitingHe only had three career, zero the year he won the Thorpe.
Yeah, that's just from having an overall great defense and a NC-to-be team making opponents play catch-up. And running on them wasn't fun, either.Is Gerod Holliman's 14 INTs in 2014 a sneaky choice for unbreakable record?
Which makes it even crazier that Woodson had 7 during his Heisman yearHe was just in another league than those guys. Springs and Winfield were great players in college and in the NFL.
Down-ballot Heisman voting is a fun (crazy) study:Fralic's team probably fell off. It's still a team award, always has been.
Going back to 1980 to now.....
1984: Fralic must have fallen off, as his support to win the Heisman fell to 1 single voter.
1985: Sports Illustrated put their pseudo ballot on its cover, advocating for RB Joe Dudek of Plymouth State over Bo Jackson or Chuck Long. Dudek would finish 9th, with 12 first-place votes (11 more than Thurman Thomas).
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That's a lot for now, I can do another decade if anyone cares to read it.
I don't remember the exact year, sometime in the early 90s, when the preseason mags went from Street n Smith's black-and-white to full color pages, it was beautiful.I think it might have been Athlon, that's why I jumped on it. It just looked so amazing
I want to say Sporting News was the first all-color throughout, so I jumped on that bandwagon. I'm amazed at the grip the NFL has on our society when college is so much more diverse and plentiful.....the history goes back just as far (further, really), and the 4-year turnover cycle keeps the allegiance on the school and not individual players.
Meh, fantasy and gambling. Whatever.
I think it might have been Athlon, that's why I jumped on it. It just looked so amazingNow I recall jumping from TSN to Athlon because it had the 2-deep with jersey numbers.
Down-ballot Heisman voting (continued)...1993, Charlie got the hypesman curse. Yes he won the game, but got his ass kicked by the blackshirts
1993: With not many 1st place votes to go around (Ward won in a huge landslide), three mid-major programs boasted top-10 finishers: SDST's Faulk (7 1sts), NIU's LeShon Johnson (5), and Fresno's Trent Dilfer (2).
1994: Two linemen in the top 10 of voting garnered 1st place votes: DT Warren Sapp had 17, while OT Zach Wiegert had 1. Wiegert's RB also had a single 1st-place vote (Lawrence Phillips).
1996: A 2,000 yard rushing season by TTU RB Byron Hanspard earned him just 15 1st-place votes.
1990: Virginia WR Herman Moore gets 6 first-place votes to Rocket Ismail's 237, despite 11 more receiving TDs and a higher ypc avg on almost twice as many receptions.Man I love going down rabbit holes. I remember Herman Moore with the Lions, had no idea he played at Virginia. Also had no idea Virginia was ranked #1 for a few weeks that season before losing 4 of their last 5 and finishing unranked. Rocket actually had more yards from scrimmage compared to Moore, he ran the ball for over 500 yards too. And of course everyone remembers him as a return guy. Anyway, Moore's running mate at receiver was Derek Dooley, best known for flaming out as the head coach at Tennessee.
Man I love going down rabbit holes. I remember Herman Moore with the Lions, had no idea he played at Virginia. Also had no idea Virginia was ranked #1 for a few weeks that season before losing 4 of their last 5 and finishing unranked.Oddly that's one of those facts I always remember. My first concrete memory of a non-Michigan football game was watching a then #1 Virginia lose to Georgia Tech en route to GT's co-national title.
Oddly that's one of those facts I always remember. My first concrete memory of a non-Michigan football game was watching a then #1 Virginia lose to Georgia Tech en route to GT's co-national title.That’s because no one believed Virginia was REALLY a team deserving of a #1 ranking. I remember that game too. It’s weird. It’s like the voters used that game to invalidate UVA but also validate GT.
Virginia was for some reason dropped to #11 for that 3 point loss.
When did they start awarding it after the bowl games?For the AP poll, 1968, with 2 'oh by the ways':
For the AP poll, 1968, with 2 'oh by the ways':well, undefeated Nebraska lost to #4 Bama in the Orange
1965 was after the bowls, I guess because they had 3 different big-boy teams at 10-0, all playing in different bowls (and all 3 lost, lol), and
well, undefeated Nebraska lost to #4 Bama in the OrangeHow much fun would that have been to settle in and watch those games?
The stage had been set for all the national marbles. No. 1 Michigan State had been upset by UCLA and No. 2 Arkansas had been upset by LSU, leaving No. 3 Nebraska as the only unbeaten power.
When the firing stopped, the Cornhuskers had become the third unbeaten team of the day to fall, and Alabama was able to jump from its pre-game No. 4 ranking to a second straight national title.
For the AP poll, 1968, with 2 'oh by the ways':I meant the Heisman. Usually they hand it out before the bowl games.
1965 was after the bowls, I guess because they had 3 different big-boy teams at 10-0, all playing in different bowls (and all 3 lost, lol), and
1947 - the official final poll had ND 1 before the bowls......a huge, yet unofficial poll was drawn after Michigan curb-stomped (49-0) a USC team in the Rose ND had 'only' beaten 38-7. UM won that one handily, but again....unofficial. People were dying for ND and UM to play, but Crisler wouldn't have it.
The UPI changed to post-bowls in 1974.
I meant the Heisman. Usually they hand it out before the bowl games.Oh, that's just this year, because of the delayed finish of the season. The results were finalized before the bowls, anyway.
How much fun would that have been to settle in and watch those games?good old daze
Loved the names of yore,Butkus,Nietzsche,Sayers,Ditka,Unitas,Deacon Jones,Claude Humphrey,Tombstone Jackson,Buck Buchanon,Curly Culp,Slinging Sammy Baugh,Otis taylor,Sonny Jurgenson,Floyd Little,Conrad Dobler,Bubba Smith,Don Nottingham,Rosey Grier,Merlin Olsen,Walt Garrison,Hacksaw Reynolds,Mad Stork Hendricks,Otis Sistrunk,Lem Barney,Night Train Lane,Mike lanier,John Hadl,Forest Gregg,Jim ringo,Boyd Dowler,Gino Marchetti,Gene Hickerson,Lombardi,Otto Graham....you get the pointWhat? Ha ha isn’t a great name? Even the last name has two parts!
well, undefeated Nebraska lost to #4 Bama in the OrangeAnd Bama's loss to Texas in the Orange Bowl after the 1964 season is the reason they waited until after the bowls in 1965. :)
The stage had been set for all the national marbles. No. 1 Michigan State had been upset by UCLA and No. 2 Arkansas had been upset by LSU, leaving No. 3 Nebraska as the only unbeaten power.
When the firing stopped, the Cornhuskers had become the third unbeaten team of the day to fall, and Alabama was able to jump from its pre-game No. 4 ranking to a second straight national title.
Down-ballot Heisman voting is a fun (crazy) study:1989: 72 voters wanted to give ND QB Tony Rice the Heisman for a 2 TD pass, 9 INT season...
Going back to 1980 to now.....
1980:More people thought QB Neil Lomax of Portland State should win the Heisman than did Anthony Carter and Kenny Easley COMBINED.
1981: 3 people thought RB Rich Diana of Yale should win it over Marcus Allen or Herschel Walker, while rushing for fewer carries, yards, ypc, and TDs (vs Yale's schedule)
1982: Dan Marino got 1 first-place vote in a season he threw 17 TDs and 23 INTs......also, Anthony Carter had his best Heisman showing (4th) in perhaps his worst season as a starter
1983: Out of about 700 voters, only 6 thought the 'best' OL should win the Heisman (Fralic). Only 7 thought the award should go to the 'best' DB (Hoage)
1984: Fralic must have fallen off, as his support to win the Heisman fell to 1 single voter.
1985: Sports Illustrated put their pseudo ballot on its cover, advocating for RB Joe Dudek of Plymouth State over Bo Jackson or Chuck Long. Dudek would finish 9th, with 12 first-place votes (11 more than Thurman Thomas).
1986: Three LBs appear in the top 10 of voting! WTF?? 9 thought Bosworth should win the Heisman, 3 chose Cornelius Bennett, and 5 picked Spielman....Auburn RB Brent Fullwood finished with just 4 first-place votes after a 1400 yard season @ 8.3 ypc, probably because he wasn't Bo.
1987: The only FR player to finish in the top 10 since Herschel, Florida RB Emmitt Smith gets 2 first-place votes.
1988: The news here isn't that Okie State RB Barry Sanders won, it's that 156 voters thought someone else should have won it over him....Alabama LB Derrick Thomas gets 3 first-place votes for a season with 27 sacks (unofficially)...and FSU CB Deion Sanders received zero first-place votes.
1989: 72 voters wanted to give ND QB Tony Rice the Heisman for a 2 TD pass, 9 INT season....MSU LB Percy Snow had 7 first-place votes, 4 more than ND WR Raghib Ismail, who did not have a single receiving TD, yet finished 10th in the voting.
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That's a lot for now, I can do another decade if anyone cares to read it.
1989: 72 voters wanted to give ND QB Tony Rice the Heisman for a 2 TD pass, 9 INT season...Yup, anyone that thinks the Heisman is just now a ridiculously subjective and biased joke, doesn't really know the history of the Heisman.
Why not? In 1956, they gave Paul Hornung the Heisman for a 3 TD pass, 13 INT season playing for a 2-8 ND team.
1954 was interesting, when it came to the RB.smells like politics
USC was looking good at #7 and 8-1 and (I guess) garnered an invite to the Rose Bowl. But the Trojans were facing undefeated, #2 UCLA and got stomped. They then lost to ND.
So an 8-3, 17th-ranked USC played in the Rose Bowl vs Ohio State, while 9-0, #2-ranked UCLA sat home.
*now, the Pac-8 could have had a no-repeat rule like the B1G did, but idk....even if it did, how do you pass up a 1 vs 2 matchup!?!?!
Ohio State beat the now 8-4 Trojans and won the NC, ahead of UCLA. What's messed up is that UCLA was #1 for 2 weeks late in the season, but fell back to #2, after destroying Oregon. The Bruins allowed a total of 6 points in their final 5 games.
Yup, anyone that thinks the Heisman is just now a ridiculously subjective and biased joke, doesn't really know the history of the Heisman.It's worth thinking about how much college football has changed. Notre Dame ran a lot of run option, and Tony Rice was unquestionably great at running it. But you ain't compiling a bunch of passing stats doing that and there was a time when touchdown to interception ratios truly didn't matter
Down-ballot Heisman voting is a fun (crazy) study:Alabama LB Derrick Thomas gets 3 first-place votes for a season with 27 sacks (unofficially)...
Going back to 1980 to now.....
1980:More people thought QB Neil Lomax of Portland State should win the Heisman than did Anthony Carter and Kenny Easley COMBINED.
1981: 3 people thought RB Rich Diana of Yale should win it over Marcus Allen or Herschel Walker, while rushing for fewer carries, yards, ypc, and TDs (vs Yale's schedule)
1982: Dan Marino got 1 first-place vote in a season he threw 17 TDs and 23 INTs......also, Anthony Carter had his best Heisman showing (4th) in perhaps his worst season as a starter
1983: Out of about 700 voters, only 6 thought the 'best' OL should win the Heisman (Fralic). Only 7 thought the award should go to the 'best' DB (Hoage)
1984: Fralic must have fallen off, as his support to win the Heisman fell to 1 single voter.
1985: Sports Illustrated put their pseudo ballot on its cover, advocating for RB Joe Dudek of Plymouth State over Bo Jackson or Chuck Long. Dudek would finish 9th, with 12 first-place votes (11 more than Thurman Thomas).
1986: Three LBs appear in the top 10 of voting! WTF?? 9 thought Bosworth should win the Heisman, 3 chose Cornelius Bennett, and 5 picked Spielman....Auburn RB Brent Fullwood finished with just 4 first-place votes after a 1400 yard season @ 8.3 ypc, probably because he wasn't Bo.
1987: The only FR player to finish in the top 10 since Herschel, Florida RB Emmitt Smith gets 2 first-place votes.
1988: The news here isn't that Okie State RB Barry Sanders won, it's that 156 voters thought someone else should have won it over him....Alabama LB Derrick Thomas gets 3 first-place votes for a season with 27 sacks (unofficially)...and FSU CB Deion Sanders received zero first-place votes.
1989: 72 voters wanted to give ND QB Tony Rice the Heisman for a 2 TD pass, 9 INT season....MSU LB Percy Snow had 7 first-place votes, 4 more than ND WR Raghib Ismail, who did not have a single receiving TD, yet finished 10th in the voting.
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That's a lot for now, I can do another decade if anyone cares to read it.
Here's some names, just from recruits:Ga'Quincy McKinstry - nicknamed kool-aid. sounds like a key and peele skit name.
Chubba Purdy
Navy Shuler
Gavin Beerup
Tank Bigsby
Jay'Veon Sunday
Ajou Ajou
Money Parks
T.J. Tampa
Mookie Cooper
Wing Green
Sedrick Van Pran
Tonka Hemmingway
Jay Max Jacobsen
Prince Darboh
Moon Ashby
Major Burns
Cody Stufflebean
Here's some names, just from recruits:All Time Champion!
Chubba Purdy
Navy Shuler
Gavin Beerup
Tank Bigsby
Jay'Veon Sunday
Ajou Ajou
Money Parks
T.J. Tampa
Mookie Cooper
Wing Green
Sedrick Van Pran
Tonka Hemmingway
Jay Max Jacobsen
Prince Darboh
Moon Ashby
Major Burns
Cody Stufflebean
there was a time when touchdown to interception ratios truly didn't matterlol, it's always mattered. Just overlooked, as an inefficiency in traditional thinking.
lol, it's always mattered. Just overlooked, as an inefficiency in traditional thinking.It's always mattered, but a rush option quarterback shouldn't have prolific passing stats. That's pretty much the biggest sign that the quarterback isn't doing any good.
The funniest note on Tony Rice is that he won the Johnny Unitas GOLDEN ARM Award in 1989. You can't make this stuff up!
Tony Rice's GOLDEN ARM in 1989:Dude, think about how hard it would be to throw with an arm made of gold. It's insane the numbers were even that good.
68 comp
137 att
49.6%
1,122 yds
2 TD
9 INT
110 rating
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Tommie Frazier's GOLDEN ARM in 1995:
92 comp
163 att
56.4%
1.362 yds
17 TD
4 INT
156 rating
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Not all option Golden Arms are the same. Rice's was silly.
Who's asking for prolific? I'm just pointing out his passing was god-awful AND he was rewarded. That's not backwards?Not really, he was a great quarterback. It's just how we define a great quarterback today and in 1989 are two different things.
a college award named after a player who achieved fame because of his NFL career???EXACTLY! It's madness!
Not really, he was a great quarterback. It's just how we define a great quarterback today and in 1989 are two different things.I don't think you're reading my posts. Rice's passing stats were bad, even for an option QB.
I don't think you're reading my posts. Rice's passing stats were bad, even for an option QB.Because stats like that don't make any sense for an option quarterback. The most important thing for an option quarterback is to be able to run the option, and nice passing stats are nice, but also not particularly helpful to knowing if the QB is doing a good job. We don't have great stats on judging when an option QB makes the correct choice in the option, other than the team being good.
Major Harris (WV) had more rushing yards @ a higher clip per carry and threw for 17 TD-11 int, with a 142 rating. Darian Hagan (CU) had rushing stats that dwarfed Rice's, and his pass rating was 162.
Rice got his award because he was a known commodity on the defending national champion. Why are you allergic to acknowledging he didn't deserve it?
unfortunatelyHe’s going to be the best of all the Bama WRs imo. He’s so smooth in and out of breaks, his route running is incredible- he creates so much separation it’s ridiculous and his hands are incredible.
but, the real question is............ what kind of NFL career will he have?
So answer me this: Who would have won the Heisman if Jaylen Waddle never got hurt?Hard to play what if game. I really like Waddle, but Smith is clearly superior receiver. Probably Smith still. Who knows.
Waddle is a legit 4.3 guy who hangs on the ball.Depends on his foot injury obviouslyWaddle vs Smith debate just like the Ruggs vs Jeudy. Jeudy was clearly the better wide receiver and football player, Ruggs was just more athletic and freakishly fast. Same thing here. Smith is just better.
So answer me this: Who would have won the Heisman if Jaylen Waddle never got hurt?Does Waddle keep up his production? Does Smith have the same production? Are Jones' numbers notably better?
Oh, I just thought having another 1st round WR opposite him would lead most people to figure Smith's numbers would be normal-good and thus, not Heisman-worthy, especially for a WR.That’s true, but it’s true for most folks. If Trask has a 1,500-yard rusher, his stats are worse, less chance, yada yada.
I'm just being silly again.
The NCAA's most odd deficiency is its unwillingness to incorporate stats THAT WE ALREADY KNOW AND HAVE into the official records. Bowl games, sacks, FG %, etc. going back in time are widely known and if not, kept by the universities themselves.Thanks to the efforts of Brian Niemann, Husker fans now have some new resources at their fingertips when looking back at the 1971 Orange Bowl, the clincher for Nebraska’s first football national championship.
Would it kill each athletic dept to grab some kid and have him go through it all for season totals? No, that'd be great. But the NCAA just sits on its ass, even when these stats are well-known.
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Bryce Young is the first QB in Alabama history to have 350 yards passing and 2 rushing TDs in the same game.What a fun, obscure stat. Has he thrown for 300 yards and 5 rushing TDs in a game yet?
I bet $1000 Kenny Pickett doesnt win the Heisman.23 TDs and just 1 INT
I bet $1000 Kenny Pickett doesnt win the Heisman.You won’t get very good odds on that
They should rename it the Torretta Trophy.How in the F did he even win that? Marshall Faulk got jobbed. If Marshall Faulk had played at a helmet school- that trophy would've been his.
who was the worst player to ever win one?Tough choice. Names that come to mind:
Gotta be Troy Smith, right? :88:I judge them on how well they do in the NFL.
who was the worst player to ever win one?Dangerous Doug Flutie
Tough choice. Names that come to mind:Weinke is the only one of those who deserves to be on the list. The rest were absolutely worthy.
Chris Wienke, Sam Bradford, Jameis Winston Marcus Mariotta , Cam Newton, Danny Wuerful.
I judge them on how well they do in the NFL.WHY I OUGHTA......
who was the worst player to ever win one?Paul Hornug.
agreed
In my living memory, Ty Detmer's Heisman was BS, in 1990. If you wanted a big-numbers G5 QB, Klingler's numbers were superior. If you valued excitement, Rocket Ismail finished 2nd, but for all his flash, he only scored 6 total TDs.