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Topic: The Ukraine Topic

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Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1036 on: March 11, 2022, 07:59:08 PM »
Stability globally is generally desirable,  I don't know of an exception.  Instability should be combatted where possible.  This is one purpose of the UN (not that it does a very good job).  If the world sat back and said "We don't really care about Ukraine" and did nothing, it would be a clear sign to other powers that they could also engage in adventurism along the lines of the 1930s.

I doubt the Israeli leader would feel the same if Syria et al. had overrun most of Israel and offered "terms" similar to what Putin has offered.
how would Israel feel if a hostile military alliance was on their border.....oh wait...we already know that answer. LOL. Bad example

Israel is one of the most aggressive nations in the entire world. If they so even as much sniff a threat they'll take it out preemptively and without thinking twice about it. Preemption is part of their military doctrine.

Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1037 on: March 11, 2022, 08:05:08 PM »
Exactly.  And the fed has no choice - as we approach double digit inflation, but to raise rates multiple times during this coming year.

When economic things get really really hard, like in Russia or Europe or United States, that’s when the risk of irrational military moves becomes the greatest and that is what I fear the most here
100%.

A man backed into a corner will most likely come out like a wild animal because it's his only option. And a man with 6,700 nukes backed into a corner is freaking terrifying.

Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1038 on: March 11, 2022, 08:07:07 PM »
We're pretty hypocritical, yeah.  And that affects how our messaging is received.  It's all connected.  It all matters. 


So it's best to not attack a completely separate country when you're attacked by a tiny group of ass hats from a different one. 
:043:


Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1040 on: March 12, 2022, 07:42:50 AM »
how would Israel feel if a hostile military alliance was on their border.....oh wait...we already know that answer. LOL. Bad example.

Israel is one of the most aggressive nations in the entire world. If they so even as much sniff a threat they'll take it out preemptively and without thinking twice about it. Preemption is part of their military doctrine.
I said I doubt the Israeli leader would would accept those terms in his own country, which has zero to do with how Israel responds to hostile neighbors.

It is an example spot on point.

Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1041 on: March 12, 2022, 07:46:48 AM »
To me, when someone constantly rationalizes and blames others for an invasion of this ilk, they are striving to JUSTIFY the invasion by blaming others and bringing up reasons it happened.  "The US is bad, so Russia is simply doing the same thing."  "Russia had grievances so they had to invade."

Rationalizations = Justification = Whataboutisms = everyone else does it.  It's also boring and repetitive.

And yes, I'm in favor of bringing Russia to its knees economically, I have zero wish to aid them at this point and continue funding their actions.

Cincydawg

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1043 on: March 12, 2022, 10:02:08 AM »
To me, when someone constantly rationalizes and blames others for an invasion of this ilk, they are striving to JUSTIFY the invasion by blaming others and bringing up reasons it happened.  "The US is bad, so Russia is simply doing the same thing."  "Russia had grievances so they had to invade."

Rationalizations = Justification = Whataboutisms = everyone else does it.  It's also boring and repetitive.

And yes, I'm in favor of bringing Russia to its knees economically, I have zero wish to aid them at this point and continue funding their actions.
IMHO Ukraine is the terrified damsel in distress, Russia is the crazy ex-boyfriend that still wants to control her, NATO is a restraining order, and the US is the "other guy" who is trying to convince her to get the restraining order. 

Maybe trying to convince her to get the restraining order sets off the crazy ex-boyfriend so he tries to beat the sh!t out of her. Maybe that's a risk that all parties know going in because the ex is unhinged. That doesn't mean trying to convince her to get the restraining order justifies the crazy ex-boyfriend's actions.

In this case, however, the crazy ex didn't realize he was WAY out of shape, and didn't know that the girl had been studying krav maga for the last several years...

Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1044 on: March 12, 2022, 10:04:49 AM »
One continuing lesson is how vulnerable armor and aircraft are to MANPADS et al.

Anything with a heat signature is vulnerable to one man with some gear.

utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1045 on: March 12, 2022, 10:11:03 AM »
IMHO Ukraine is the terrified damsel in distress, Russia is the crazy ex-boyfriend that still wants to control her, NATO is a restraining order, and the US is the "other guy" who is trying to convince her to get the restraining order.

Maybe trying to convince her to get the restraining order sets off the crazy ex-boyfriend so he tries to beat the sh!t out of her. Maybe that's a risk that all parties know going in because the ex is unhinged. That doesn't mean trying to convince her to get the restraining order justifies the crazy ex-boyfriend's actions.

In this case, however, the crazy ex didn't realize he was WAY out of shape, and didn't know that the girl had been studying krav maga for the last several years...

Summed up beautifully.


utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1046 on: March 12, 2022, 10:13:33 AM »
One of the many problems with Putin, is that he actually believes this to be true.  What happened to the USSR is absolutely the opposite of "success."  That he still doesn't understand this, is what has led to this current failure, and the now impending and inevitable destruction of Putin's Russia.


https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1502531404491628545?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1502531404491628545%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.surlyhorns.com%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fvisegrad24%2Fstatus%2F1502531404491628545%3Fs%3D21

Honestbuckeye

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1047 on: March 12, 2022, 10:17:52 AM »
One of the many problems with Putin, is that he actually believes this to be true:


https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1502531404491628545?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1502531404491628545%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.surlyhorns.com%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fvisegrad24%2Fstatus%2F1502531404491628545%3Fs%3D21
Yes.  I am not convinced the sanctions will have much effect.  Maybe more on us, than them. 
And if they do, I am not convinced we will get the desired response.  

Their citizenry is much more built to stand economic hardship than our own.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1048 on: March 12, 2022, 10:25:53 AM »
The Russian economy was already struggling propped up with energy exports.  Now it's drowning.  It will have an impact.  The alternative is to continue funding their military.

I don't think we've ever seen sanctions to this degree before, ever (aside from war time).  Usually major countries don't sign on and others cheat.  In this case, it's much of the global economy that stopped doing business with Russia.  And yes, China and India will try and compensate.

The alternatives are not very appealing either:

1.  Stand aside completely and use harsh language.
2.  No sanctions, try and arm Ukraine, but let Russia continue to fund its military as before.
3.  Military conflict.
4.  We could rationalize and say "Well, we attack other countries too, so it's OK."

Of course, as misguided as the US has been at times, we have not attacked other countries with the intent of incorporating them into our own.  We blow them up and then leave (since 1898 anyway).

utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1049 on: March 12, 2022, 10:52:23 AM »
Yes.  I am not convinced the sanctions will have much effect.  Maybe more on us, than them.
And if they do, I am not convinced we will get the desired response. 

Their citizenry is much more built to stand economic hardship than our own. 
I see a lot of people saying stuff like this.  I don't buy it for a second.

There are now two generations of Russians that never knew the CCCP, never knew bread lines, and have nothing in common with their ancestors that were notorious for bearing hardships.  They also know the world far beyond what the state-owned media ever allowed their parents and grandparents to see.  Putin is struggling to control the narrative even from state-media sources, and newer generations have had access beyond that.  Even with Facebook and instagram shut down, Youtube and Tik Tok have still been able to penetrate.

This ain't your dad's Russia.  And I don't expect them to just stoically accept their lot.

 

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