Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

You know, I was pretty much raised in the Republican tradition. Hence, I grew up thinking that the government was bad at most things, but that on matters of law & order, and international relations / protecting the homeland, that was where the government excelled.

I became a libertarian, officially, when I realized they're shite at that too. I can't see how those invasions actually helped, you know, protecting the homeland.

All that is irrelevant to Putin and Ukraine, though. Putin wanted to control Ukraine, a sovereign nation, to stop them from doing things he didn't want them to do, that would insulate them from his control. So he invaded.

ok we get it
US bad and cant be trusted
Its all the fault of the US
US just used Ukraine and does not care
Putin is simply reacting like any Russian leader would for self defense
Did I leave anything out

We have plenty of people right now claiming we are being invaded from people crossing the southern border to work at Piggly Wiggly. You think if China starting sending missiles and money to Mexico there wouldn't be a pretty danged big political movement to do something about it?

this is way off topic but just the same all we need to stop it is a Federal Government that wants it stopped

I dont think we would care about missiles if they were defensive in nature and no we would not allow ICBMs put in Mexico

now hard as you may try you just cant justify Russia invading an independent nation that poses no current threat to Russia but Im sure that wont slow you down so have at it

we would never allow any military alliance on our borders, nor would we allow any missile systems, even ABMs to be put on our borders. it is a complete fantasy to think otherwise for even one second.

Your opinion and I dont agree

Ukraine in NATO = threat to Russian border security. That is how they see it, and that what they've said about it for 14 years. And that is how any Russian leader would see it. Ukraine as a part of NATO makes Russia completely indefensible from a NATO land invasion. Baltics really don't matter that much to them because if they had to they could encircle and cut the Baltic states off on land. Ukraine in NATO? They'd be toast. They'd have no way to counter an invasion and no way to slow it down.

 Ukraine is not in NATO so your whole argument is mute

Call NATO whatever you want, but it's a military alliance, controlled by the United States. And they don't trust the US standard operating "just trust us" line of bullshit. They've been duped one too many times by that.

 Again Ukraine is not a member of NATO

I feel like I'm talking to a bunch of children here.

A lot of different things can simultaneously be true. Context matters. History matters. Things do not happen in a vacuum.

The US is a declining global Imperial power that seeks to retain US hegemony over the world. Like all empires before it, it does not operate in terms of good and bad. Only in terms of self-interest and in maintaining hegemony. Despite what you may think- we are not the good guys and everyone else we say is a bad guy is the bad guy. This is a fantasy only for children to believe. Unfortunately damn near everyone in this country believes it.

The fault for the invasion is on Vladimir Putin alone. He decided to invade Ukraine- so that is on him. The US has been antagonizing the bully for years. Despite many warnings from many different people of all backgrounds and stripes. The bully went and snapped. The bully is always to blame for his own violent actions. That does not mean it was OK to antagonize him. It was not. Both things can be true.

And US clearly does not give a sh*t about Ukraine- they didn't even attempt to make a deal. They refused to negotiate. And are they sending boots on the ground? No. Are they establishing a no fly zone? No. Ukraine does not matter enough to them to risk a greater war with Russia. Because as Obama openly admitted in interviews in 2016- Ukraine doesn't really mean anything to the US- it is of zero strategic value to the US. Less than zero.

Putin has been responding negatively to NATO/Ukraine for the last 14 years, as any Russian leader would. I guess I misspoke if I said any leader would invade- because there is just no way to know for sure if any Russian leader would have actually pulled the trigger on an invasion. I honestly did not think he would- I thought he was too cunning and calculating for that- did not think he was this stupid- and I thought the US ultimately would cut a deal- but there was a refusal by the US to negotiate- no deal was cut and he invaded- and he and he alone bears the responsibility for that action.