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Topic: When is college football's "golden age?"

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847badgerfan

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2025, 08:14:05 AM »
1915 Conferences:
SWC:  OU, Baylor, A&M, Texas, Arkansas, Rice, Southwestern (TX), Oklahoma St
Western:  Minn, ILL, Chicago, OSU, Purdue, Wiscy, Iowa, IU, N'Western
Rocky Mtn:  Colorado St, Utah, CO Mines, CO College, Denver, Wyoming, CU, Utah St
Mizz Valley:  Nebraska, KU, ISU, Washington (MO), Mizzou, Drake, KSU
Independents (everyone else) - Top ones:  Cornell, Pitt, GT, Vandy, Harvard, UVA, ND, Wash & Jeff, Colgate

I wonder why western schools were the first to conference up. 
Academic concerns.

The Western Conference was officially named the "Intercollegiate Conference of Faculty Representatives".
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

utee94

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2025, 10:54:04 AM »
Houston has a couple of very wealthy boosters, it's possible they could make some moves at some point.

Rice is an academic institution with very little concern about athletics.  They fielded an excellent baseball team for a while with a generational head coach who knew how to develop talent.  Their football team will never be good.

bayareabadger

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2025, 12:05:59 PM »
I didn't really care either way. It was mildly interesting, but I wouldn't have missed it.

About the best thing I can say about it is that because the end result was only two teams, it was really only a legitimate conversation about 4-6 teams by the time we hit late October. I think, because of that, it probably wasn't THAT much different than obsessing/arguing over rankings of the top teams that would have been the case if we weren't trying to force a 1 vs 2 matchup. So it wasn't a "sucking all the air out of the room" discussion.

That's interesting to me. It felt to me, in the moment, like it was sucking the air out of the room to around the same degree as the playoff is. 

But that may have something to do with my own experience/age at the time/outlook. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2025, 12:14:34 PM »
That's interesting to me. It felt to me, in the moment, like it was sucking the air out of the room to around the same degree as the playoff is.

But that may have something to do with my own experience/age at the time/outlook.
Ahh sure, it did feel like that a little bit to me at the time...

But now we have the perspective of hindsight in a 12-team playoff where we're discussing whether teams like Indiana or SMU should go, or whether a 3-loss Alabama team should get an at-large bid over them. 

Back in those days it was limited to undefeated P4 and one-loss helmet teams, and the occasional debate over whether an undefeated G5 program should get a shot (that we all knew they'd never get). 

It seems in retrospect to be a BIG difference in scale. 

FearlessF

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2025, 12:44:23 PM »
so, some folks are critical of a 2-loss tOSU team winning the tournament

just imagine if a 3-loss Bama had made that run
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847badgerfan

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2025, 12:55:17 PM »
That would have been fine.
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FearlessF

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2025, 12:56:14 PM »
According to Finebaum
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

ELA

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2025, 01:07:19 PM »
I know a lot of people (such as OAM) make a big deal out of this... That somehow the sport, or at least the "premier" bowls, are made worse by the mere existence of lesser bowls.

IMHO bowl proliferation does have some problems (such as the lesser bowls essentially forcing the schools into buying expensive ticket allotments they can't sell enough of to recoup it). And yes, they ARE meaningless to anyone except the fans of the schools invited and to degenerate gamblers.

But I think they were still fun for the fans, and for the players, and IMHO their existence didn't harm the other bowls. Purdue had a middling year in 2018, but they got to go to the chicken bowl in Santa Clara. Given that I'm "local-ish", my wife and I flew up for it, got GREAT seats in the 6th row, and had a blast. It was Dec 27 or 28 or something, so it's not like it was conflicting with the major bowls. And for anyone who had nothing better to do and turned on ESPN that night, it was a back and forth game against Arizona and a wild exciting finish.

IMHO--and I've said this extensively--it's a 12-team CFP sucking all the air out of the room that has made the bowls meaningless... Not bowl proliferation.
I think the "lesser" bowls suffered from multiple issues, even before the current opt out/portal issues.  First, we went from NC + 3, to NC +4, to CFP + 4.  So that group grew and grew.  But I actually think flexing the tie ins hurt it more.

I remember MSU played PSU in the final game in 2008.  If MSU won, and OSU subsequently lost to UM, MSU would go to the Rose Bowl, but I was already stoked that MSU was playing in, at worst, the Outback Bowl.  Simply playing in a NYD Bowl was a meaningful thing.  They wound up losing to Georgia in the Citrus Bowl.  But the NC was a pipe dream.  Finishing top 3 in the Big Ten, and getting that NYD bowl validation was a legitimate point of pride.  Starting in 2014 the Big Ten entered into all of these stupid rules to move teams around.  MSU has had 3 great teams since their CFP appearance, 2015, 2017, 2021.  2015 and 2017 qualified for NY6 Bowls.  2017 went to the Holiday Bowl against Washington State based on those weird agreements, even though they won 10 games and finished 3rd.  Based on the rules about repeat appearances, if the 2022 MSU team had actually beaten Indiana and gotten to 6-6, they would have been almost guaranteed the Citrus Bowl, because they were the only eligible team that hadn't been there.  It wasn't the proliferation of bowls, because mostly those just added more shitty G5 teams, but they made it so the bowls between P5 teams were no longer related to having a great season

utee94

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2025, 01:49:30 PM »
so, some folks are critical of a 2-loss tOSU team winning the tournament

just imagine if a 3-loss Bama had made that run
It's going to happen, probably sooner rather than later.  It's the nature of a post-season tournament.  

ELA

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2025, 04:15:30 PM »
It's going to happen, probably sooner rather than later.  It's the nature of a post-season tournament. 
I think it's a fun transition year.  You see Michigan fans calling out that loss.  For better, or worse (I think worse), that's just going to be a normal thing.  Imagine Duke winning the basketball tournament, and UNC fans saying they beat them.  That hasn't been a thing for generations.  But we are on a weird cusp in football.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2025, 04:26:28 PM »
Yeah, my problem with the BCS was the big, fat lie with the computer rankings.  From the get-go, they never incorporated the computer rankings as-is.  It was always an altered version, which then got tweaked basically every year, preventing any continuity.

Why bother with the computers if you're not going to incorporate them as-is.  They're already at their top effort, unedited.  So you go an edit them?  WTF???

Same as the big, fat lie that anyone could win the NC.
I understood the concern and didn't mind them meddling but the way that they meddled was a disaster.  

For anyone not familiar there were two concerns, one stated out loud and the other silent:

Out loud the concern was that including MoV would encourage coaches at Helmets to run up the score on hapless opponents.  

Silently the concern was that Boise State would be able to make up for their pathetic SoS by running up the score on their opponents.  

I actually think that both of those are valid.  

My solution was to simply cap it at 21 or maybe 28 points or alternatively to get more of a "game control" by calculating MoV as some function of:
  • lead/(deficit) at the half
  • lead/(deficit) at the end of the 3rd quarter
  • final MoV
  • Then capping that. 


I do NOT want to encourage Helmet coaches to score 100 on crap opponents just because they have to impress the computers.  

I also do NOT want some Boise State type team to be able to completely make up for their pathetic SoS by hanging 100 on their crappy opponents.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2025, 04:29:22 PM »
Much simpler than that.  Television revenues.  Neither the SWC nor the Big 8 could survive on their own.  Even after the merger the B12 was still behind the B1G and, later, the SEC.
I've always thought the mistake was that effectively it wasn't a "merger", it was the Big8 grabbing the top-4 SWC programs.  What they SHOULD have done, IMHO, was to get rid of more of the weaklings and create one conference of the strongest from each.  They needed to drop second schools in Kansas, Iowa, and Oklahoma.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2025, 04:37:44 PM »
That changed in the 1980's.

Iowa (twice), Illinois and MSU went to the Rose Bowl in that decade.

The 1990's brought Wisconsin (twice), Iowa, Penn State and Northwestern.
It is funny because it seems to me that most people think the "Big Two, Little Eight" era of complete domination by tOSU and M was VASTLY longer than it actually was.  

Indiana went to the 1968 Rose Bowl after the 1967 season.  They won the tiebreaker in a three-way tie with Purdue and Minnesota.  The previous BigTen representatives in the Rose Bowl were:
  • IU in 68
  • PU in 67
  • MSU in 66
  • M in 65
  • IL in 64
  • UW in 63
  • MN in 62 and 61
  • UW in 60
  • IA in 59
  • tOSU in 58
  • IA in 57
  • MSU in 56
So in the 13 years from 1956-1968 (55-67 seasons) Ohio State (57 season) and Michigan (64 season) each went to the Rose Bowl once.  Meanwhile:
  • IU went once
  • PU went once
  • IL went once
  • MSU went twice
  • UW went twice
  • MN went twice
  • IA went twice

Then Ohio State won the league in 68 and the Buckeyes and Wolverines proceeded to share the Rose Bowl only amongst themselves for 13 years, 69-81 (68-80 seasons).  Then it was:
  • IA in 82
  • M in 83
  • IL in 84
  • tOSU in 85
  • IA in 86
  • M in 87
  • MSU in 88
  • M in 89-90
  • IA in 91
  • M in 92-93
  • UW in 94
  • PSU in 95
  • NU in 96
  • tOSU in 97


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: When is college football's "golden age?"
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2025, 05:08:42 PM »
Yeah, my problem with the BCS was the big, fat lie with the computer rankings.  From the get-go, they never incorporated the computer rankings as-is.  It was always an altered version, which then got tweaked basically every year, preventing any continuity.

Why bother with the computers if you're not going to incorporate them as-is.  They're already at their top effort, unedited.  So you go an edit them?  WTF???
I understood the concern and didn't mind them meddling but the way that they meddled was a disaster. 

For anyone not familiar there were two concerns, one stated out loud and the other silent:

IMHO there was one major problem with incorporating computer rankings. 

  • The impetus for incorporating them was to include an objective, metric-based system that wasn't influenced by the subjective "eye test" and simple "# of losses" biases that the pollsters had. 
  • The impetus for changing / tweaking / meddling with them every year is that they didn't agree with the subjective "eye test" and simple "# of losses" biases that the pollsters had, so the computers must therefore be "wrong". 

The system was ALWAYS subjective. It was ALWAYS a beauty pageant. 

So when some unthinking, unfeeling computer that can't recognize "true" beauty starts coming up with different answers than the beauty pageant judges, it must be excluded. 



 

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